Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JarionSilverblades 02-28-07, 07:30 PM	Should Humans have racial ability modifiers like the other races? Maybe +2 any, -2 any?
theotherdraxen 02-28-07, 07:37 PM	Humans are already one of the most powerful races in the game. Your suggestion above would make them too powerful, since any and all humans would put their bonus where it would benefit them most and their penalty where it impacts them least. This is in addition to their free first-level feat, extra skill points, and favored class (any), all of which can synergize nicely into a powerful build. If you were going to give humans bonuses, I'd suggest a bonus to con or int. Humans are notoriously tough, having the capability to outrun any animal IIRC, and intelligence due to their versatility and tactical mind whenever they war with other races in books and literature (humans tend to out-smart their enemies, and often do have better technology than their fae counterparts). Penalty to wisdom since other races are iconically wiser than humans.
JarionSilverblades 02-28-07, 07:41 PM	Humans are already one of the most powerful races in the game. Your suggestion above would make them too powerful, since any and all humans would put their bonus where it would benefit them most and their penalty where it impacts them least. This is in addition to their free first-level feat, extra skill points, and favored class (any), all of which can synergize nicely into a powerful build. It wasn't a suggestion, it was just a Question asked out of boredom.
UnknownMourner 02-28-07, 09:58 PM	I don't get your reply to the last guy. He answered what you asked. IMO, while it seems like +2 and -2 should cancel out, they don't. When they are set players still find ways to min / max them, which I'm not knocking. But with +2 Any /-2 Any you'd have easily the most powerful race (for players anyway). You'd always be getting the +2 to a stat that would normally cost x2 or x3 in point buy, and the -2 would just make one stat even more of your dump stat, or would be bought up to 12 for no modifier. In random stat method, then it would be a little less cheese. I could see regional +2/-2 for humans, but that's usually better covered by skills.
castlemike 02-28-07, 10:20 PM	I'd like to see more (+0 Templates) at level one. Basically a +0 Template would be rated at 1/2 and rounded down unless combined with another Template. Two +0 Templates would be a +1 ECL Template and Three +0 Templates would be a +2 ECL. Preferably random generation and requiring DM approval like some of the Level 1 Feats and on par with +0 Aismiar, +0 Tiefling, +0 Magebred and limited to Con Modifier with a Maximum of 3 +0 Templates. Preferably random and requiring DM approval like some of the Level 1 Feats and could be one of the campaign drivers like the 6 Hidden Houses from Complete Psionic discovering why the PC is different. I'd make the 6 Hidden Houses a +0 Template instead of burning a feat.
Jaxgaret 02-28-07, 10:40 PM	A +2/-2 Human could be balanced if it had no other racial qualities. Medium size, 30' movement, and Favored Class:Commoner. There's also Human Paragon levels. You get to choose +2 to any stat at the 3rd level of that.
Naderion 03-01-07, 02:04 AM	'10' is definied as the average ability-score in humans. +2 Dex does only mean "+2 better than humans". For exapmple an average strength of 10 and 12 does not mean that one is strong and the other is not, but just that the one is stronger than the other. And since we all know humans from real live, giving the average of humans the score 10 makes it most easy to discern if a race is particularry good or bad in a given ability. When you think humans should have +2 Int for example, it actually means that every other race should get -2 Int acorrding to the system.
mkill 03-01-07, 06:49 AM	I don't get this thread. Humans do have racial modifiers. Str +0 Dex +0 Con +0 Int +0 Wis +0 Cha +0 Looks fairly balanced to me.
runestar 03-01-07, 07:31 AM	I don't get this thread. Humans do have racial modifiers. Str +0 Dex +0 Con +0 Int +0 Wis +0 Cha +0 Looks fairly balanced to me. You don't get any more balanced than that...;)
Evil DM Mk3 03-01-07, 07:45 AM	Whilst I feel that satwise humans as teh vanilla is kinda dull and uninteresting, I also achnoladge the need for soem rase to be the "baseline" and we do all know what the human adverige is like...
YabaTheWhat 03-01-07, 08:21 AM	The only ability score bonus/penalty I could see on humans is granting INT +2 and dropping the (redundant) bonus skill points. Perhaps -2 CON could apply due to their short lifespans (relative to most other core races), balanced by some non-ability-score bonus, though no ability score penalty fits the flavor of humans. As has already been mentioned, they're supposed to be the baseline.
obrysii 03-01-07, 08:28 AM	The only ability score bonus/penalty I could see on humans is granting INT +2 and dropping the (redundant) bonus skill points. Perhaps -2 CON could apply due to their short lifespans (relative to most other core races), balanced by some non-ability-score bonus, though no ability score penalty fits the flavor of humans. As has already been mentioned, they're supposed to be the baseline. Except humans have usually been seen as very hardy and adaptable--something that a Con penalty runs counter to.
Zumarai 03-01-07, 08:31 AM	In the 2nd edition campaign setting Maztica, certain humans from different nations etc had various ability score modifiers. I think now it could be represented with Feats/Skills etc?
AMGriffin 03-01-07, 08:58 AM	No racial ability modifiers to humans. Humans are the race by which every race is measured. Like you see the human strongmen that can pull semi-trucks and do stuff like that...well an orcish strongman would probably be able to take it up another notch. But at the same time a race with a penalty to say constitution wouldn't be capable of the same durability and resiliance that humans have been known to display. Though I wouldn't give them a bonus to CON or INT. Humans having a CON bonus? If humans were worthy of a CON bonus there wouldn't be as many humans who needed to use inhalers, amongst other things. Humans with an INT bonus? ...Just watch WWE. So yeah it works like that.
Avihs 03-01-07, 02:23 PM	If you really wanted to do something like this, I'd probably suggest the +/-2 modifiers be either in one of two catagories. Physical (str, dex, con) or Mental (int, wis, cha). If you take a +2 in Str, then your -2 must be taken in either Con or Dex. Same thing for for the mental aspect of the modifier. EDIT: I'd probably add the caveate that the bonus could not increase a stat above 18 also.
The_Basilisk 03-01-07, 04:47 PM	Yeah, I agree with the people that humans should have no stat modifier. They are the race that all other humanoid races are compared to. (Why else would they call them 'humanoid'?) The fact that they have no mods to stats, and the skill/feat bonus, is what makes them adaptable. It's why humans can do decently no matter what class they take.
Finfreeze 03-01-07, 05:01 PM	I say give them +2 intelligence so we can drop down blues and slightly revised hobgoblins and make the other core races have mental stat bonuses. They already have half of +2 intelligence; why not give them the other half?
Kadasbrass 03-01-07, 05:08 PM	Humans shouldn't get ability modifiers. For one thing there should be a race that doesn't get a penalty to ability scores. Two Humans should be baseline and average in their abilities. Races with ability score bonuses (should) have a penalty to an important score for characters in general as a payoff. Humans don't get a bonus to an important score or penalties to allow them to serve all roles equally well.
Soltares 03-01-07, 07:17 PM	The Scarred Lands setting has regional options for humans that give a +2 to one stat and a -2 to another, at the cost of the Human bonus Feat. People from the kingdom of Calastia are proud and confident people from a land of intrigue, known for their dashing personalities (and lack of common sense). A PC Human from Calastia can choose to take a +2 Charisma and a -2 Wisdom, or take the normal human bonus feat, whichever they choose. You could get pretty much any combination, depending on the region you selected, but since you were giving up your bonus feat, it was a choice that I never was tempted to go near...
Sathery 03-01-07, 07:22 PM	I realize that your question was already asked. I think of the human race as the "base" race when considering all of the races. They are the Captain Average Race, A Hu-man from plane Hu-man with Hu-man powers. They wouldn't get any modifiers given that they are the "building" blocks of the races.
JTalbain 03-01-07, 07:57 PM	I've always kind of disagreed with the "Humans get no stat bonuses/penalties because they're the baseline" argument. Not just for D&D, but for pretty much any Fantasy RPG. The only reason humans are seen as the baseline is because we, as humans, created the game, and hence are basing everything off of what we can do. If we were Elves and created the same game, Humans and Halflings would have a penalty to their eyesight and Gnomes and Dwarves would be overpowered because of their +4 Con bonus. The ability score system for D&D is intended to show with penalties and bonuses to various stats that some races are inherently better at things than others. What things are the humans inherently better at than any other race? Humans are more adaptable than any other race. In fact, Humans are about the only race you could expect to find anywhere on the planet. Humans are more capable of having a cosmpolitan selection of skills and abilities. No other PHB race comes close here. Humans are capable of amassing large amounts of power and prestige quickly. The other races may live longer, but humans arguably make better use of their time. For instance, as much time as arcane magic supposedly takes to master, there are more Human epic wizards in D&D lore than epic Elven wizards, who actually have Wizard as a favored class. Yeah, that just screams Intelligence bonus to me. The two reasons they don't have it already are that it would be breaking tradition (as already said D&D isn't the only game that has used the human as a vanilla baseline race), and that WotC was worried about spellcasters being overpowered with a bonus to a mental stat (and we saw how much they really cared about that with the FR book and the decision to give gnomes a +1 to their spell save DCs). You may feel humans should have to be vanilla to preserve tradition, but let's face it. If any other race had the same advantages and flavor that humans do, they would have the Intelligence bonus.
FrostWolf 03-01-07, 08:32 PM	IfHumans are notoriously tough, having the capability to outrun any animal IIRC, Umm... Tell that to the campers that got chased down and ate by the bear.:D We slow. We slow as all heck.
Darth Syntax 03-01-07, 08:41 PM	I also do not like the humans-as-baseline thing, and in the setting I have been working on for a while, the humans (who are generally known as Voilen) have a +2 Con and -2 Wis. Humans tend to be remarkably resilient, capable of taking quite a bit of punishment and shaking it off, but we're not the most astute of species. Our vision may be color, but thats about all we have going for us. Our hearing is laughable, and we are a bit too curious for our own good.
asurademon 03-01-07, 09:09 PM	Umm... Tell that to the campers that got chased down and ate by the bear.:D We slow. We slow as all heck. Humans may be slow, but they are very enduring runners, more so than many (maybe even most) land animals. A lot of mammals have better hearing than humans, and certainly a better sense of smell, but humans have pretty good vision for mammals. On the running thing, check this excerpt out, and this link too www.discover.com/issues/may-06/features/tramps-like-us/ Distance Running 'Shaped Human Evolution', Nature News Next Article Excerpts: Humans may have spent millions of years honing their distance running. c Punchstock Long-distance running was crucial in creating our current upright body form (...). Our poor sprinting prowess has given rise to the idea that our bodies are adapted for walking, not running, says Lieberman. Even the fastest sprinters reach speeds of only about 10 metres per second, compared with the 30 metres per second of a cheetah. But over longer distances our performance is much more respectable: horses galloping long distances average about 6 metres per second, which is slower than a top-class human runner. * Source: Distance Running
Tuah 03-01-07, 09:12 PM	Humans are considered the exact middle of all things, except their affinity for learning which is demonstrated in their extra skills and feat.
Kadasbrass 03-01-07, 09:15 PM	Humans as a general race have nothing to suggest they should get an ability boast that couldn't be explained by having a group of people with a certain ability score as their main ability score to begin with. However humans could be divided into subraces with ability bonus/penalty to reflect the longterm effects of culture, regional evolution, and or selective/limited genetic material breeding impacts.
Darth Sephiroth 03-01-07, 09:32 PM	I keep on considering a +1/-1 ability modifier thing where they can both be applied to the same thing if wanted
StevenO 03-01-07, 11:05 PM	First off I don't think humans should get any racial ability modifiers. If you were to give humans racial ability modifiers they should get just a +2 Int with NO bonus feat or skills as the skills are covered by the increase and that increase is possibly more powerful than any feat. If you want them to keep the bonus feat and skills then I'd say you need to follow the Half-Orc model and give them a floating +2 along with two -2 modifiers which can NOT be used to drop a score below 8. If you don't like that restriction just make sure that both penalties don't end up in "dump" stats for a character; perhaps on penalty should go in a physical stat and one in a mental stat.
AMGriffin 03-02-07, 07:45 PM	For all the people saying "omg humans need to get a +2 bonus in this or this" seem to forget that all other races with those bonuses are EVEN BETTER at that specific field then humans themselves are.
JTalbain 03-04-07, 06:28 PM	For all the people saying "omg humans need to get a +2 bonus in this or this" seem to forget that all other races with those bonuses are EVEN BETTER at that specific field then humans themselves are. Which is why I said +2 to Intelligence instead of the skill points. No race is as adaptable or as accustomed to rapid and varied learning as humans, and almost all of the best wizards in D&D were humans as well.
Shudragon 03-04-07, 07:43 PM	I say no, Humans were meant to play as a median race, they were supposed to be the most versatile. Cruel, but true.
JTalbain 03-06-07, 07:10 PM	I say no, Humans were meant to play as a median race, they were supposed to be the most versatile. Cruel, but true. They'd still be the median race and the most versatile if they had a +2 Intelligence instead of the skill points. It's just that any other race that was as versatile and learned as fast as humans do would have the Intelligence bonus. It would make sense for them to have it, and no one would say anything about it.
Reversefigure4 03-09-07, 09:02 PM	They'd still be the median race and the most versatile if they had a +2 Intelligence instead of the skill points. It's just that any other race that was as versatile and learned as fast as humans do would have the Intelligence bonus. It would make sense for them to have it, and no one would say anything about it. +2 INT is NOT the same as the bonus skill points. - The bonus skill points apply regardless of your ultimate intelligence score. A Fighter with 3 INT gets -2 skill points a level (2 minus 4), defaulting to a minimum of one instead. If he's human, his bonus skill points are added in AFTER his negatives, giving him 2 skill points a level. With +2 INT instead, he'd have 5 INT and get skill points of 2 minus 3 a level, defaulting to 1. - +2 INT provides bonuses the extra skill points do not. A +1 to all INT based skills, the ability to take more INT damage without collapsing, and most importantly, bonus spells and DCs for any INT based spellcasting class.
TheAnthroDM 03-09-07, 09:18 PM	No. Also +2 Any -2 Any is about at broken as a Medium Half-Dragon's level adjustment(but in oppisite ways)
Millennium 03-09-07, 09:26 PM	When it comes down to it, humans are the baseline from which statistics are measured. 10 and 11 -the average stat scores on a 3d6 roll- represent the degree of ability they do because that's what an average human can (supposedly) do. Racial modifiers come into play when the average member of a given race can do something better than an average human. Because of this, I would say that no; humans shouldn't have racial ability modifiers. They don't need adjustments on the scale, because they are the scale.
Kadasbrass 03-09-07, 10:12 PM	The arguement that humans deserve +2 int since they appear as the greatest wizards in the books can be applied to every single core class in the game for human. Humans can do well at everything since their not shoe-horned into any certain role in addition their not better at any given role then another role.
otakutaylor 03-10-07, 01:11 PM	well, the game itself is of course balanced around humans, so it only makes it simple that humans are the baseline. As for adding an ability modifier, No. I think that humans are effectively the factotum (see dungeonscape) or Bard race of the world. Versatility is the benefit we gain as a race. Unfortunatly versatility is an underrated quality in almost every aspect. Almost all other races in the game are a pit specialied, even half-elves have certain tendencies, but the human can fill any role, do any job, and at least manage any thing you need done. IF you have a few to choose from. Dwarves are always tough little guys, Elves are always hard to hit, half-orcs are always better at spliting skulls. (although always isn't always always, but that's what PC's are ment for.) Humans get the undeniably useful ability to choose what we're good at, while all other races have it chosen for them. Elves get longswords and bows, Dwarves get stonecunning etc. but a human gets to choose what he wants. The only downside, the ability to go another way counts as a benefit, even after you make use of the opportunaty, so we get jipped against a race naturally more suited to the job. It's fully intended that way. Every character you can think of, (except those who go to prestige classes and need a humans bonus feat) has a race equivelant who can do a better, more specialized version. But that always comes with a small cost. The half-orc is an idiot, the elf breaks easily, and the dwarf sticks his foot in his mouth on the rare occasions the situation comes up. The human is still normal in things he chooses not to excel at, instead of sucking at them. It's very hard to measure the value of versatility, some find it worth more than a 2 level dip in fighter for bonus feats, others think it's less useful than cure minor wounds against a zombie. In a perfectly average game of DnD it's just as useful as any other race ability. But there is no perfectly average DnD game. Every game has a mild leaning toward one thing or another, the average is just what's the most common elements among most games. Thus if you specialize in one thing out of hundreds, you seem kind of weak, especially if your one never comes up. A dwarf who never has to make a fort save against poison isn't as effective as a elf who constantly back-flips out of the way of fireballs. A human who is geared toward the way the campaign runs, will seem stronger. A human geared toward somethign else will seem weaker. The only reason they always seem weak is because their ability to choose their specialty doesn't turn around and relate to other facets of the character. A dwarfs con bonus might give him a well needed HP bonus, but it also touches in Concentration, which he might need once or twice. A race with an Int bonus of course gets the bonus skills, and the modifiers to int based skills, but he also gets a bonus on an untrained Int skill check. a human chooses what to be good at, HP (toughness) Knowledge (nature) or whatever, but his choice doesn't effect similar parts of the character, that's the only reason he seems weak. So if the human constantly seems weak, why is he still a good choice? because Relying on a single, or two different, ability to make a character work also makes them weak. Strength drain stops a well armed half-orc in his armor. A dwarf that actually succums to Con damage poison becomes a short, bearded, glass vase. An elf who get's caught in a tanglefoot bag is an orcs punching bag. The humans benefitial skill points and feat are an unassociated bonus and can't be touched. That makes them awesome. It's like being born with a back-up plan. End Rant.
Arcane Guyver 03-10-07, 01:23 PM	I don't think they should get ability modifiers. That said, in the new Castlemourn setting, humans have a special ability that lets them treat their ability scores as two points higher for the purpose of qualifying for feats and stuff...kinda cool IMO.
Jaxgaret 03-11-07, 04:28 PM	I don't think they should get ability modifiers. That said, in the new Castlemourn setting, humans have a special ability that lets them treat their ability scores as two points higher for the purpose of qualifying for feats and stuff...kinda cool IMO. Is there a trade-off for that, or do all the PHB races get a similar slight boost? Or none of the above?
asurademon 03-11-07, 06:17 PM	I think if humans get any additional racial trait, it should be that they can run longer than other creatures with the same constitution score, because humans are such great endurance runners. Perhaps treating them as having a constitution score 2 points higher for the sake of determining how long they can run for would work nicely.
Atsettam 03-11-07, 06:24 PM	Feat: Mutation (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=788046)
AMGriffin 03-11-07, 08:20 PM	Nothing to add to humans. Look at it this way. When we mention how good humans are at something, a race with a bonus to that specific ability is even better at it then humans. In the DND world (and real world for that matter) humans as a whole aren't really good at anything, but every human specializes in and has a knack for one specific field. Hence the bonus feat. I also would like to point out I removed the humans gaining 1 extra skillpoint per level and replaced it with any +2/+2 skill bonus feat to further reflect the diversity of humans and how no two are alike. The four extra skillpoints are considered cultural.
Red_Rabbit 03-11-07, 08:38 PM	No Humans get an Extra feat which I'd take over a +2 to a stat and a -2 to a stat any day. The Rabbit
Arcane Guyver 03-11-07, 09:14 PM	Is there a trade-off for that, or do all the PHB races get a similar slight boost? Or none of the above? No tradeoff. The other races got a bit of a makeover, but IMO they all got a fairly slight boost. Not to get too specific, but: elves and half-elves lose their low-light vision, but instead radiate a strange glow similar to a torch (requiring concentration to suppress). Dwarves lose their bonus against spell saves, but instead get the ability to treat any one spell per day as an illusion (and can 'disbelieve' it as such). Gnomes and halflings get other tweaks. They just completely replaced the half-orc with a goliath-ish race, and introduced a vampiric race that has control over the life-forces of others.
ElberethSilverleaf 03-12-07, 12:16 AM	If you like the steam tech meets magic try the Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes setting. It has a more humanocentric setting and different races get different stat bonus/plus stuff. You can always use this as a starting point even if you don't like the whole steamtech stuff.
Jerks 03-12-07, 01:04 PM	If we branch out a bit we can take a look at the StarDrive setting for Alternity. Humans receive additional modifications depending upon the region of space that they were from. In a few cases these were just the equivalent of stat adjustements, but more often than not the humans got some weird or highly focused ability. In the D20 system, a lot of these benefits would simply be feats. I think having humans as the baseline is good, and honestly a good design choice. The stat bonuses and penalties might as well say that "elves are more dextrous THAN HUMANS. Orcs are dumber THAN HUMANS." It gives us a reasonble baseline of what things to expect.
castlemike 03-12-07, 02:13 PM	Consider giving humans the option of forfeiting their bonus feat for a +2 ability modifier of their choice.
Cromag 03-12-07, 03:07 PM	Humans are awesome as is. no change needed. BTW famous human characters are just that famous. I'm sure there are plenty of extremely powerful characters of other races that aren't as well known due to amassing power more slowly and not showboating.
Sudnji_cas 03-12-07, 03:20 PM	Should Humans have racial ability modifiers like the other races? Maybe +2 any, -2 any? hell no!
Arcane Guyver 03-12-07, 10:29 PM	Also, IIRC, the d20 Warcraft game gives humans extra stuff (don't have it with me, but it was like a +2 to a few specific skills, one of which was a specific Craft). I think that's a good example of how it's ok to throw flavor-focused extras at humans if it solidifies their niche in your world.
Grave_Accomplice 03-13-07, 04:05 AM	Should Humans have racial ability modifiers like the other races? Maybe +2 any, -2 any? Depends on your campaign. In Iron Kingdoms humans have stats adjustments, but they're based on your country of origin. Someone attempted to convert Pirates of Dark Water to D&D (I think 3.0, but I'm not sure). Humans received adjustments based on the island they originated from. Both these settings were VERY humanecentric. For the base setting, (IMO) they're fine as is.
JarionSilverblades 03-27-07, 07:40 PM	BUMP!!! :bump:
Nadaka 03-28-07, 12:17 AM	IMC I have advanced humans (I call em paragons, but that is a much more epic template for most people). Statistically? +2 to any one ability score +2 reputation (like in d20 modern) loose bonus skill points and bonus feat I don't use multiclassing penalties, so that is also unchanged. no other penalties In game they represent 6 noble families that over the generations have sought to live up to the legacy of their legendary founders. Each family has through selective breeding and intense training managed to focus on a single ability at the expense of general flexibility.
AMGriffin 03-28-07, 12:06 PM	So... basically you turned humans into an ability modifier with a reputation bonus? That seems kinda boring.
Finfreeze 03-28-07, 12:34 PM	One problem is that humans currently are designed to get more skill points than usual, which is normally under the dominion of intelligence. The other problem is that intelligence controls certain spellcasting. So there's a bit of a conundrum. Giving another race an intelligence bonus steps on one of the human's major advantages. Giving humans an intelligence bonus means they'd be obvious choices for wizards and the like. Ah, if only there was no intelligence-based spellcasting, then this would be a whole lot simpler: just give humans the intelligence bonus with no real repercussions. But short of a total rewrite, I think an intelligence bonus would be best for the good of LA +0 races as a whole, since it opens up new opportunities for mental races, such as blues and merfolk. ... What? People like merfolk.
Nadaka 03-28-07, 01:44 PM	So... basically you turned humans into an ability modifier with a reputation bonus? That seems kinda boring. Not exactly, normal humans still get the standard bonuses, its just that these advanced humans instead gain the ability modifier and reputation bonus (plus a few mechanically irrelevent bits of noble background and responsibilities to the family).
JarionSilverblades 03-28-07, 07:16 PM	Here is the ruff version of a couple racial feats, let me hear what you think, keep in mind these are only ruff. RACIAL PENALTY (racial feat). Prerequisites: Human, must be taken at 1st level, before any other feat is taken. Benefits: A human gains a - 2 penalty to any one ability. Normal: Without this feat a human has no penalty to any ability. Special: This feat may not be taken multiple times, once the penalty is chosen it may not be changed. RACIAL BONUS (racial feat). Prerequisites: Human, Racial Penalty feat, must be taken at 1st level, after all other feats are taken. Benefits: A human gains a +2 bonus to any one ability based on the penalty gained from the Racial Penalty feat. -2 Strength = +2 Dexterity or Constitution -2 Dexterity = +2 Strength or Constitution -2 Constitution = +2 Any other ability -2 Intelligence = +2 Wisdom or Charisma -2 Wisdom = +2 Intelligence or Charisma -2 Charisma = + Intelligence or Wisdom Normal: Without this feat a human has no Bonus to any ability. Special: This feat may not be taken multiple times, once the bonus is chosen it may not be changed.
JarionSilverblades 04-16-07, 08:38 AM	Would still like to hear some thoughts about the above feats.