Should the Aasimar & Tiefling been made templates instead of races? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Should the Aasimar & Tiefling been made templates instead of races? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celestialkin
12-12-07, 02:30 PM Hey guys,

This has been bugging me ever since I first read the aasimar & tiefling entries years ago. Aren't they supposed to be the long removed descendants of an outsider (celestial or devil) and a mortal creature/humanoid? Aren't these outsiders supposed to be able to create offspring with any creature? So why are all aasimaars and tieflings obviously based on humans?

I just feel that they would have been much better off as a template which could be added to any race. What about an aasimar orc? Couldn't there be a tiefling halfling (seems to fit, actually)? An assimar elf (twice as graceful!)? Maybe even a tiefling dragon?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/AasimarTieflingtransparentbackgr-3.png
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0
12-12-07, 02:36 PM They have different "plane touched" in Races of Fearun, and a few more in one of the MM's. I don't know which one as I don't have my books currently.
Fimbul
12-12-07, 02:42 PM Back in the good ol' Planescape days, Aasimar, Tieflings, and the Genasi were designed to be the offspring of any possible mortal race.
So you could play easily as Fire Genasi descented from Lizardfolk for example.

But the outsider heritages basically overrides many of the racial traits of the parent race. That's why I personally wouldn't make them mere Templates.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0
12-12-07, 02:47 PM Also they have templates for that type of stuff. Clestial and Feindish are for the Good/Evil things. Manual of the planes has elemental templates too. So no.. they shouldn't be templates.
RobbyPants
12-12-07, 03:48 PM Also they have templates for that type of stuff. Clestial and Feindish are for the Good/Evil things. Manual of the planes has elemental templates too. So no.. they shouldn't be templates.
I could be wrong (maybe I'm thinking of 3.0), but my impression of celestial and fiendish is that they are supposed to be applied to animals, not any creature.

I think it would be fine to create a template for the two races.
seker
12-12-07, 04:59 PM Another option would be to make them be a 1st level only feat that gives the template.

This would allow for humans to take it and it gives a set of bonuses at the cost of their extra feat (or even a human with both tiefling and aasimar feats... for a truly messed up heritage) but would also allow for an aasimar elf or tiefling halfling.

Giving them all the bonuses of a tiefling or a aasimar may seem a bit much for a feat mind you... may need to look at the balance issues.
Talisman
12-12-07, 05:09 PM Seker, that's actually a great idea...I may have to make those feats...hmm...
seker
12-12-07, 05:39 PM Seker, that's actually a great idea...I may have to make those feats...hmm...

*chuckle* actually the idea came from a game system I have been working on for some time, not quite d20 :p

It seems to work well, as I have things equivelent to planetouched, but they are more along the fey (chaos)/order lines... though there are good/evil planetouched too... the idea is that there should be a downside to taking the bonuses of having a heritage like that... so limiting their initial boosts works well.

the aasimar and tiefling feats would be easy...

AASIMAR [CELESTIAL HERITAGE]
Carrying the essence of the celestials in your veins.
Benefit: The character gains the following:
+2 Wis or +2 Cha
Light 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level.
+2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks
planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type)
Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, acid, electricity
Special: May only be taken at 1st level.

TIEFLING [FIENDISH HERITAGE]
Carrying the essence of the fiends in your veins.
Benefit: The character gains the following:
+2 Dex or +2 Int
Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level.
+2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide checks
planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type)
Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, fire, electricity
Special: May only be taken at 1st level.

Note then it is easy to make additional feats to enhance the starting ones. Things such as the additional stat boost, wings, ect... can easily be added... you can also add things like a -2 penalty to a given skill (say bluff for aasimar, diplomacy for tiefling) and instead scale the increases given by the base feats.
celestialkin
12-12-07, 05:40 PM Seker, that's actually a great idea...I may have to make those feats...hmm...

If you do, please share them!

However, I don't see why other races besides humans can't have a diverse heritage. Both traits can lie dormant for generations, so I don't see why two people who each have an outsider ancestor couldn't get together without knowing it.

However, I hear the aasimar and tiefling might be core races in 4.0. So I guess this opinion might not really matter.

edit:

Thank you seker. Those are very interesting. I'll print this thread out and keep it for reference. I still say humans shouldn't be the only ones able to take both, though.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0
12-12-07, 05:48 PM *chuckle* actually the idea came from a game system I have been working on for some time, not quite d20 :p

It seems to work well, as I have things equivelent to planetouched, but they are more along the fey (chaos)/order lines... though there are good/evil planetouched too... the idea is that there should be a downside to taking the bonuses of having a heritage like that... so limiting their initial boosts works well.

the aasimar and tiefling feats would be easy...

AASIMAR [CELESTIAL HERITAGE]
Carrying the essence of the celestials in your veins.
Benefit: The character gains the following:
+2 Wis or +2 Cha
Light 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level.
+2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks
planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type)
Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, acid, electricity
Special: May only be taken at 1st level.

TIEFLING [FIENDISH HERITAGE]
Carrying the essence of the fiends in your veins.
Benefit: The character gains the following:
+2 Dex or +2 Int
Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level.
+2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide checks
planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type)
Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, fire, electricity
Special: May only be taken at 1st level.

Note then it is easy to make additional feats to enhance the starting ones. Things such as the additional stat boost, wings, ect... can easily be added... you can also add things like a -2 penalty to a given skill (say bluff for aasimar, diplomacy for tiefling) and instead scale the increases given by the base feats.

Those feats are broken compared to the other heritage feats. Check them in certain books, like complete mage and PHBII
seker
12-12-07, 07:43 PM Those feats are broken compared to the other heritage feats. Check them in certain books, like complete mage and PHBII

*rolls eyes*
That would be because they are not heritage feats, they are more in line with the abyssal heritor feats from fiendish codex I... with a more serious limitation. They can only be taken at first level. They are more of a cross between abyssal heritor and regional feats than anything else.

Heritage feats are for sorcerers to expand their power as casters and can be taken at any level of character. (and they give significant boosts to sorcerers, many acting as multiple additional known spells per day or giving you supernatural abilities that use your spell slots.)

abyssal heritor feats can be taken at any level but are significantly more powerful. (adding things like DR/lawful, wings, natural ac boosts, ignore negative levels each day, etc... and they scale up with the more you get the more powerful they are.)

regional feats are significantly more powerful than other starting feats. (and include things like changing your type to native outsider, granting arcane spellcasting, etc..)

after looking at them I would likely rewrite them as follows:

AASIMAR [CELESTIAL HERITOR]
Carrying the essence of the celestials in your veins.
Benefit: The character gains the following:
+2 Wis or +2 Cha
Light 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level.
+1 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks (increases by +1 for each additional celestial heritor feat you possess.)
Resistance cold, acid, and electricity 1 (increases by +1 for each additional celestial heritor feat you possess.)
Special: Your heritage of the celestial can be difficult to hide. This effect manifests as a -2 penalty on Disguise checks. Also gains the planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) May only be taken at 1st level.

TIEFLING [FIENDISH HERITOR]
Carrying the essence of the fiends in your veins.
Benefit: The character gains the following:
+2 Dex or +2 Int
Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level.
+1 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide checks (increases by +1 for each additional fiendish heritor feat you possess.)
Resistance cold, fire, and electricity 1 (increases by +1 for each additional fiendish heritor feat you possess.)
Special: You are disconcerting to those with whom you interact. This effect manifests as a -2 penalty on Diplomacy checks. Also gains the planetouched subtype. (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) May only be taken at 1st level.

Also add a limitation similiar to the one on the abyssal heritor feats. While you can be of any alignment when taking a celestial heritor or fiendish heritor feat, upon taking a second one of either your alignment would immediately shift to either good or evil respectively.

Note, the planetouched subtype is a penalty, as you become targettable by all spells that target outsiders as well as your original type. (Spells like holy smite and the like do the higher damage that is specifically for outsiders for example.)

Please note these feats can be taken by any race, as there is no requirement save that they can be taken at first level. So these would allow for aasimar elves, tiefling gnolls, or even an aasimar red dragon. Plus it opens up the door for additional celestial/fiendish heritor feats to grant other abilities; from wings, to DR, to even additional spell-like abilities.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0
12-12-07, 07:55 PM My apologies. I am not familiar with the Feindish heiritor feats. I took them as heritage feats. Once again, my apologies, and I'll leave now to get my head out of my ass.
seker
12-12-07, 08:10 PM My apologies. I am not familiar with the Feindish heiritor feats. I took them as heritage feats. Once again, my apologies, and I'll leave now to get my head out of my ass.

Sorry if I came on a bit strong about that, I apologize as well.
But if the feats I had written were available at any level, yes they would be fairly broken, but by building in the limitations it helps balance them nicely.

Frankly though the heritage feats in the PHBII are powerful beyond belief is someone uses them right... in several cases you gain supernatural (not spell like, but supernatural) abilities from them.
Each type even gets an attack form from them... that is immune to SR and does not provoke an attack of opportunity to use. (as the are supernatural abilities and not spell-like)
Talisman
12-12-07, 09:23 PM What's this? People apologizing, admitting they were wrong, and being civil to one another? Have I stumbled into the wrong forum?

Just a second...

:censored: you, you :censored:-ing :rant:! :censored:!

There...that's better :P
calronmoonflower
12-13-07, 02:08 AM I already typed up both as templates ad posted it on the board.

Plane Touched Races as Templates
Finfreeze
12-13-07, 11:31 AM For what it's worth, Aasimar and Tiefling are much more viable as templates than races.
1 ton ghost
12-13-07, 12:29 PM i have no qualms w/ the system, rather, i prefer it as a race. though there has been some intelligent debate thus far. so, nj ppl.

my understanding is that there is co-mingled outsider blood in your lineage, perhaps a generation or more removed, any closer (birth parents) and you're 1/2 celestial or fiendish.
-above listed; can choose for 100% conception rate w/ mortal vessel (Book of Erotic Fantasy); i guess this explains all those wacky creatures, but it would logically favor chaotic types given their willingness to mate w/ a multitude of species.
-it is not soley the province of human w/ outsider taints (assimar/tiefling), though i suspect that was the factory preset given human dominance. outsider traits and abilities overule most latent genetic expressions i guess. who knows. fiendish elves (fey'ri) and fiendish orcs (tanarrucks) in Faerun are wholly unique for what it's worth and very popular. recommended.
-template could work and shows progressive thinking, but if you could add it later past character gen, you're missing out on alot of compelling RP and drama through the character process. i'd just assign fiendish/celestial traits or a feat here and there if onorthodox measures called for as per DM, etc., but to each his own
sigma999
12-18-07, 10:09 PM Ah I did that over 2 years ago, various planetouched as feats...
ENWorld did too.
It's funny how different gamers with different experiences would arrive at the exact same result!

But when I posted them on this forum, they didn't become very popular. Gamers here whined "why bother?" or "broken".

But that's nice stuff there, Seker. I'm glad the 'audience' here has changed.

I'm doing Fey feats right now for the Feybook project Talisman and I (and more) are in, but there's a big difference: the feats level up with the character.
It's not just Tiefling or Aasimar, but Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial (with much-reduced ability score bonuses) by the high level range.
This kind of thing is balanced because, as certain splats even explain, monster race LA+ becomes deadweight and pointless restriction for tiny benefit as character power overshadows it.
So, you keep the feat valid for many levels to come, much like a Metamagic spell or Power Attack!
Mercurius
12-19-07, 02:49 PM Yeah, for my campaign I turned the planetouched (including Genasi and the two from MMII) into templates worth a +1 LA. Add it to an LA +0 PHB race and you're probably actually about right for a real LA+1 race (because Aasimar and Tiefling really aren't that great as LA+1, but just a tad too good for LA +0 as it stands, IMHO). So far, they've been popular when Gestalt is involved (offsetting the level loss since it only impacts one half a Gestalt), but most people still opt for a straight up LA+0 race to avoid losing class-related goodies. So, either they're seriously underbalanced, or just fine. I'm pretty much good either way.
runestar
12-20-07, 09:14 AM I think the idea is that fiends/celestials mating with different races tend to produce varying results, rather than 1 standardized template. Assimar and tieflings are specific human-outsider offspring.

It really is a thinly-veiled attempt to create more races to sell via splatbooks though.:P

For example, fey'ri are specific sun-elf tieflings, tannaruk are orc-demon tieflings, there is a duergar-bearded devil tiefling hybrid in MM2, Sean K Reynolds has an elf-eladrin assimar variant, I think the list could go on and on...
Kelmourne
12-20-07, 11:36 AM I haven't read any of the posts but going with the title of the topic im gonna go with yes. Yes they should be templates. Take all their abilities into a lvl. adj. +2 or +1 template.
sigma999
12-20-07, 09:52 PM I think the idea is that fiends/celestials mating with different races tend to produce varying results, rather than 1 standardized template. Assimar and tieflings are specific human-outsider offspring.

It really is a thinly-veiled attempt to create more races to sell via splatbooks though.:P

For example, fey'ri are specific sun-elf tieflings, tannaruk are orc-demon tieflings, there is a duergar-bearded devil tiefling hybrid in MM2, Sean K Reynolds has an elf-eladrin assimar variant, I think the list could go on and on...

:D
gravenhurst
02-12-08, 07:40 PM Hey guys,

This has been bugging me ever since I first read the aasimar & tiefling entries years ago. Aren't they supposed to be the long removed descendants of an outsider (celestial or devil) and a mortal creature/humanoid? Aren't these outsiders supposed to be able to create offspring with any creature? So why are all aasimaars and tieflings obviously based on humans?

I just feel that they would have been much better off as a template which could be added to any race. What about an aasimar orc? Couldn't there be atiefling halfling (seems to fit, actually)? An assimar elf (twice as graceful!)? Maybe even a tiefling dragon?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/AasimarTieflingtransparentbackgr-3.png

Yes and no to templates.

Yes to templates because that is what the aasimar & tiefling are, a dumbed down version of the half-celestial and half-fiend augmented humanoid template [the latter is a superflux for all races, while the former is balanced with the other divine beget races (e.g.: elves, dwarves, gnomes) � now the standard human suffers, c�est la vie, now the half-template is moot?). The Halfling and orc could benefit from the aasimar & tiefling template as they have no spell-like abilities (in a sense, these two races are dumbed down humans, i.e., the former lacking growth but is good natured � an aasimar, while the latter has growth issues and has evil tendencies � an aasimar). As I said about the aasimar & tiefling templates being a balance versus the divine races

The elves are the only ones to have their own celestial and fiendish templates, such as: the malenti (LE), eledrin (CG), the faerie (CN), and the drow (CE - I have always treated them as a fiendish race, because of Loths and Grazzt�s union). Humans have the angels (e.g.: devas, planetars, solars). But who�s to say you couldn�t adapt other outsiders into becoming the forebears of a race. Orcs could be the bi-product of many races. Maybe they all mutate into gnolls, flinds, minotaurs, mongrelmen, beastmen, bugbears, Cyclops, or vice versa? Templates on page 291 of the MM 3.5E may help. No, the aasimar & tiefling template is the best in balancing the humans/orcs/halflings against the standard races because of the ability changes, for example: the aasimar gives a + 2 Wisdom and a +2 Charisma over the rest, while the tiefling gives a +2 Dexterity and a + 2 Intelligence (no other race gets an Int bonus! Move over elves!) and a -2 Charisma. Humans are now the best race to play! Halfling would be the best at thievery! And Orcs could be justified as a paladin!

Yes to prestige classes.

Prestige classes are what you are looking for. Savage Species is a guide to help DM�s break apart races into a workable PC by having them progress in level to gain their racial abilities, while still experiencing their character class. If you still want to break apart the aasimar & tiefling template you will have to do the same to the other standard races. If you want to do away with the aforementioned template and use the more unbiased half-template then all is balanced because you do not have to change any racial abilities, except from the templates suggestions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 12-12-07, 02:30 PM	Hey guys, This has been bugging me ever since I first read the aasimar & tiefling entries years ago. Aren't they supposed to be the long removed descendants of an outsider (celestial or devil) and a mortal creature/humanoid? Aren't these outsiders supposed to be able to create offspring with any creature? So why are all aasimaars and tieflings obviously based on humans? I just feel that they would have been much better off as a template which could be added to any race. What about an aasimar orc? Couldn't there be a tiefling halfling (seems to fit, actually)? An assimar elf (twice as graceful!)? Maybe even a tiefling dragon? http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/AasimarTieflingtransparentbackgr-3.png
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 12-12-07, 02:36 PM	They have different "plane touched" in Races of Fearun, and a few more in one of the MM's. I don't know which one as I don't have my books currently.
Fimbul 12-12-07, 02:42 PM	Back in the good ol' Planescape days, Aasimar, Tieflings, and the Genasi were designed to be the offspring of any possible mortal race. So you could play easily as Fire Genasi descented from Lizardfolk for example. But the outsider heritages basically overrides many of the racial traits of the parent race. That's why I personally wouldn't make them mere Templates.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 12-12-07, 02:47 PM	Also they have templates for that type of stuff. Clestial and Feindish are for the Good/Evil things. Manual of the planes has elemental templates too. So no.. they shouldn't be templates.
RobbyPants 12-12-07, 03:48 PM	Also they have templates for that type of stuff. Clestial and Feindish are for the Good/Evil things. Manual of the planes has elemental templates too. So no.. they shouldn't be templates. I could be wrong (maybe I'm thinking of 3.0), but my impression of celestial and fiendish is that they are supposed to be applied to animals, not any creature. I think it would be fine to create a template for the two races.
seker 12-12-07, 04:59 PM	Another option would be to make them be a 1st level only feat that gives the template. This would allow for humans to take it and it gives a set of bonuses at the cost of their extra feat (or even a human with both tiefling and aasimar feats... for a truly messed up heritage) but would also allow for an aasimar elf or tiefling halfling. Giving them all the bonuses of a tiefling or a aasimar may seem a bit much for a feat mind you... may need to look at the balance issues.
Talisman 12-12-07, 05:09 PM	Seker, that's actually a great idea...I may have to make those feats...hmm...
seker 12-12-07, 05:39 PM	Seker, that's actually a great idea...I may have to make those feats...hmm... chuckle actually the idea came from a game system I have been working on for some time, not quite d20 :p It seems to work well, as I have things equivelent to planetouched, but they are more along the fey (chaos)/order lines... though there are good/evil planetouched too... the idea is that there should be a downside to taking the bonuses of having a heritage like that... so limiting their initial boosts works well. the aasimar and tiefling feats would be easy... AASIMAR [CELESTIAL HERITAGE] Carrying the essence of the celestials in your veins. Benefit: The character gains the following: +2 Wis or +2 Cha Light 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level. +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, acid, electricity Special: May only be taken at 1st level. TIEFLING [FIENDISH HERITAGE] Carrying the essence of the fiends in your veins. Benefit: The character gains the following: +2 Dex or +2 Int Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level. +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide checks planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, fire, electricity Special: May only be taken at 1st level. Note then it is easy to make additional feats to enhance the starting ones. Things such as the additional stat boost, wings, ect... can easily be added... you can also add things like a -2 penalty to a given skill (say bluff for aasimar, diplomacy for tiefling) and instead scale the increases given by the base feats.
celestialkin 12-12-07, 05:40 PM	Seker, that's actually a great idea...I may have to make those feats...hmm... If you do, please share them! However, I don't see why other races besides humans can't have a diverse heritage. Both traits can lie dormant for generations, so I don't see why two people who each have an outsider ancestor couldn't get together without knowing it. However, I hear the aasimar and tiefling might be core races in 4.0. So I guess this opinion might not really matter. edit: Thank you seker. Those are very interesting. I'll print this thread out and keep it for reference. I still say humans shouldn't be the only ones able to take both, though.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 12-12-07, 05:48 PM	chuckle actually the idea came from a game system I have been working on for some time, not quite d20 :p It seems to work well, as I have things equivelent to planetouched, but they are more along the fey (chaos)/order lines... though there are good/evil planetouched too... the idea is that there should be a downside to taking the bonuses of having a heritage like that... so limiting their initial boosts works well. the aasimar and tiefling feats would be easy... AASIMAR [CELESTIAL HERITAGE] Carrying the essence of the celestials in your veins. Benefit: The character gains the following: +2 Wis or +2 Cha Light 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level. +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, acid, electricity Special: May only be taken at 1st level. TIEFLING [FIENDISH HERITAGE] Carrying the essence of the fiends in your veins. Benefit: The character gains the following: +2 Dex or +2 Int Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level. +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide checks planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) Choose resistance 5 to two of the following: cold, fire, electricity Special: May only be taken at 1st level. Note then it is easy to make additional feats to enhance the starting ones. Things such as the additional stat boost, wings, ect... can easily be added... you can also add things like a -2 penalty to a given skill (say bluff for aasimar, diplomacy for tiefling) and instead scale the increases given by the base feats. Those feats are broken compared to the other heritage feats. Check them in certain books, like complete mage and PHBII
seker 12-12-07, 07:43 PM	Those feats are broken compared to the other heritage feats. Check them in certain books, like complete mage and PHBII rolls eyes That would be because they are not heritage feats, they are more in line with the abyssal heritor feats from fiendish codex I... with a more serious limitation. They can only be taken at first level. They are more of a cross between abyssal heritor and regional feats than anything else. Heritage feats are for sorcerers to expand their power as casters and can be taken at any level of character. (and they give significant boosts to sorcerers, many acting as multiple additional known spells per day or giving you supernatural abilities that use your spell slots.) abyssal heritor feats can be taken at any level but are significantly more powerful. (adding things like DR/lawful, wings, natural ac boosts, ignore negative levels each day, etc... and they scale up with the more you get the more powerful they are.) regional feats are significantly more powerful than other starting feats. (and include things like changing your type to native outsider, granting arcane spellcasting, etc..) after looking at them I would likely rewrite them as follows: AASIMAR [CELESTIAL HERITOR] Carrying the essence of the celestials in your veins. Benefit: The character gains the following: +2 Wis or +2 Cha Light 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level. +1 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks (increases by +1 for each additional celestial heritor feat you possess.) Resistance cold, acid, and electricity 1 (increases by +1 for each additional celestial heritor feat you possess.) Special: Your heritage of the celestial can be difficult to hide. This effect manifests as a -2 penalty on Disguise checks. Also gains the planetouched subtype (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) May only be taken at 1st level. TIEFLING [FIENDISH HERITOR] Carrying the essence of the fiends in your veins. Benefit: The character gains the following: +2 Dex or +2 Int Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability as a sorcerer of their character level. +1 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide checks (increases by +1 for each additional fiendish heritor feat you possess.) Resistance cold, fire, and electricity 1 (increases by +1 for each additional fiendish heritor feat you possess.) Special: You are disconcerting to those with whom you interact. This effect manifests as a -2 penalty on Diplomacy checks. Also gains the planetouched subtype. (treated as an outsider for all spells and effects in addition to their normal type) May only be taken at 1st level. Also add a limitation similiar to the one on the abyssal heritor feats. While you can be of any alignment when taking a celestial heritor or fiendish heritor feat, upon taking a second one of either your alignment would immediately shift to either good or evil respectively. Note, the planetouched subtype is a penalty, as you become targettable by all spells that target outsiders as well as your original type. (Spells like holy smite and the like do the higher damage that is specifically for outsiders for example.) Please note these feats can be taken by any race, as there is no requirement save that they can be taken at first level. So these would allow for aasimar elves, tiefling gnolls, or even an aasimar red dragon. Plus it opens up the door for additional celestial/fiendish heritor feats to grant other abilities; from wings, to DR, to even additional spell-like abilities.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 12-12-07, 07:55 PM	My apologies. I am not familiar with the Feindish heiritor feats. I took them as heritage feats. Once again, my apologies, and I'll leave now to get my head out of my ass.
seker 12-12-07, 08:10 PM	My apologies. I am not familiar with the Feindish heiritor feats. I took them as heritage feats. Once again, my apologies, and I'll leave now to get my head out of my ass. Sorry if I came on a bit strong about that, I apologize as well. But if the feats I had written were available at any level, yes they would be fairly broken, but by building in the limitations it helps balance them nicely. Frankly though the heritage feats in the PHBII are powerful beyond belief is someone uses them right... in several cases you gain supernatural (not spell like, but supernatural) abilities from them. Each type even gets an attack form from them... that is immune to SR and does not provoke an attack of opportunity to use. (as the are supernatural abilities and not spell-like)
Talisman 12-12-07, 09:23 PM	What's this? People apologizing, admitting they were wrong, and being civil to one another? Have I stumbled into the wrong forum? Just a second... :censored: you, you :censored:-ing :rant:! :censored:! There...that's better :P
calronmoonflower 12-13-07, 02:08 AM	I already typed up both as templates ad posted it on the board. Plane Touched Races as Templates
Finfreeze 12-13-07, 11:31 AM	For what it's worth, Aasimar and Tiefling are much more viable as templates than races.
1 ton ghost 12-13-07, 12:29 PM	i have no qualms w/ the system, rather, i prefer it as a race. though there has been some intelligent debate thus far. so, nj ppl. my understanding is that there is co-mingled outsider blood in your lineage, perhaps a generation or more removed, any closer (birth parents) and you're 1/2 celestial or fiendish. -above listed; can choose for 100% conception rate w/ mortal vessel (Book of Erotic Fantasy); i guess this explains all those wacky creatures, but it would logically favor chaotic types given their willingness to mate w/ a multitude of species. -it is not soley the province of human w/ outsider taints (assimar/tiefling), though i suspect that was the factory preset given human dominance. outsider traits and abilities overule most latent genetic expressions i guess. who knows. fiendish elves (fey'ri) and fiendish orcs (tanarrucks) in Faerun are wholly unique for what it's worth and very popular. recommended. -template could work and shows progressive thinking, but if you could add it later past character gen, you're missing out on alot of compelling RP and drama through the character process. i'd just assign fiendish/celestial traits or a feat here and there if onorthodox measures called for as per DM, etc., but to each his own
sigma999 12-18-07, 10:09 PM	Ah I did that over 2 years ago, various planetouched as feats... ENWorld did too. It's funny how different gamers with different experiences would arrive at the exact same result! But when I posted them on this forum, they didn't become very popular. Gamers here whined "why bother?" or "broken". But that's nice stuff there, Seker. I'm glad the 'audience' here has changed. I'm doing Fey feats right now for the Feybook project Talisman and I (and more) are in, but there's a big difference: the feats level up with the character. It's not just Tiefling or Aasimar, but Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial (with much-reduced ability score bonuses) by the high level range. This kind of thing is balanced because, as certain splats even explain, monster race LA+ becomes deadweight and pointless restriction for tiny benefit as character power overshadows it. So, you keep the feat valid for many levels to come, much like a Metamagic spell or Power Attack!
Mercurius 12-19-07, 02:49 PM	Yeah, for my campaign I turned the planetouched (including Genasi and the two from MMII) into templates worth a +1 LA. Add it to an LA +0 PHB race and you're probably actually about right for a real LA+1 race (because Aasimar and Tiefling really aren't that great as LA+1, but just a tad too good for LA +0 as it stands, IMHO). So far, they've been popular when Gestalt is involved (offsetting the level loss since it only impacts one half a Gestalt), but most people still opt for a straight up LA+0 race to avoid losing class-related goodies. So, either they're seriously underbalanced, or just fine. I'm pretty much good either way.
runestar 12-20-07, 09:14 AM	I think the idea is that fiends/celestials mating with different races tend to produce varying results, rather than 1 standardized template. Assimar and tieflings are specific human-outsider offspring. It really is a thinly-veiled attempt to create more races to sell via splatbooks though.:P For example, fey'ri are specific sun-elf tieflings, tannaruk are orc-demon tieflings, there is a duergar-bearded devil tiefling hybrid in MM2, Sean K Reynolds has an elf-eladrin assimar variant, I think the list could go on and on...
Kelmourne 12-20-07, 11:36 AM	I haven't read any of the posts but going with the title of the topic im gonna go with yes. Yes they should be templates. Take all their abilities into a lvl. adj. +2 or +1 template.
sigma999 12-20-07, 09:52 PM	I think the idea is that fiends/celestials mating with different races tend to produce varying results, rather than 1 standardized template. Assimar and tieflings are specific human-outsider offspring. It really is a thinly-veiled attempt to create more races to sell via splatbooks though.:P For example, fey'ri are specific sun-elf tieflings, tannaruk are orc-demon tieflings, there is a duergar-bearded devil tiefling hybrid in MM2, Sean K Reynolds has an elf-eladrin assimar variant, I think the list could go on and on... :D
gravenhurst 02-12-08, 07:40 PM	Hey guys, This has been bugging me ever since I first read the aasimar & tiefling entries years ago. Aren't they supposed to be the long removed descendants of an outsider (celestial or devil) and a mortal creature/humanoid? Aren't these outsiders supposed to be able to create offspring with any creature? So why are all aasimaars and tieflings obviously based on humans? I just feel that they would have been much better off as a template which could be added to any race. What about an aasimar orc? Couldn't there be atiefling halfling (seems to fit, actually)? An assimar elf (twice as graceful!)? Maybe even a tiefling dragon? http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/AasimarTieflingtransparentbackgr-3.png Yes and no to templates. Yes to templates because that is what the aasimar & tiefling are, a dumbed down version of the half-celestial and half-fiend augmented humanoid template [the latter is a superflux for all races, while the former is balanced with the other divine beget races (e.g.: elves, dwarves, gnomes) � now the standard human suffers, c�est la vie, now the half-template is moot?). The Halfling and orc could benefit from the aasimar & tiefling template as they have no spell-like abilities (in a sense, these two races are dumbed down humans, i.e., the former lacking growth but is good natured � an aasimar, while the latter has growth issues and has evil tendencies � an aasimar). As I said about the aasimar & tiefling templates being a balance versus the divine races The elves are the only ones to have their own celestial and fiendish templates, such as: the malenti (LE), eledrin (CG), the faerie (CN), and the drow (CE - I have always treated them as a fiendish race, because of Loths and Grazzt�s union). Humans have the angels (e.g.: devas, planetars, solars). But who�s to say you couldn�t adapt other outsiders into becoming the forebears of a race. Orcs could be the bi-product of many races. Maybe they all mutate into gnolls, flinds, minotaurs, mongrelmen, beastmen, bugbears, Cyclops, or vice versa? Templates on page 291 of the MM 3.5E may help. No, the aasimar & tiefling template is the best in balancing the humans/orcs/halflings against the standard races because of the ability changes, for example: the aasimar gives a + 2 Wisdom and a +2 Charisma over the rest, while the tiefling gives a +2 Dexterity and a + 2 Intelligence (no other race gets an Int bonus! Move over elves!) and a -2 Charisma. Humans are now the best race to play! Halfling would be the best at thievery! And Orcs could be justified as a paladin! Yes to prestige classes. Prestige classes are what you are looking for. Savage Species is a guide to help DM�s break apart races into a workable PC by having them progress in level to gain their racial abilities, while still experiencing their character class. If you still want to break apart the aasimar & tiefling template you will have to do the same to the other standard races. If you want to do away with the aforementioned template and use the more unbiased half-template then all is balanced because you do not have to change any racial abilities, except from the templates suggestions.