Simplifying ECL, EL and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Simplifying ECL, EL and CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
seahen
04-01-07, 06:03 PM The following, an extension of proposals others have made on other forums, is a way to eliminate LA, CR, EL and ECL -- four variables that seem to be causing much confusion -- without making game balance harder for DMs. It would also eliminate at least one NPC class, measure NPC and PC strength (both individual and group) on the same scale, make PCs with zero or fractional character class levels possible, eliminate the rule of maxing the first PC HD without the fatalities this would normally cause, allow the PHB races to have different HD at the same class and level, and make a lot more races available (with DM's approval) in campaigns where the starting level is 1. In short, it would go a fair way toward making the game simpler and more "elegant," at least for DMs, broadening the audience.

It would, though, mean some fairly substantial changes and therefore might have to wait for 4th Edition.

Eliminate Level Adjustment altogether and alter the hit dice (say, from the gnoll's 2d8+2 (11) into 3d4+3 (10.5) or the giant owl's 4d10+4 (26) into 6d6+6 (27), so that the number of HD becomes equal to the ECL without significantly changing the average HP. Then, use number of HD wherever you currently use ECL, and that's one less variable to worry about. Maybe even call them racial levels instead of HD.

The archetypal form of a monster becomes the middle or end of an advancement progression, rather than the beginning. Each race starts with 1 HD (unless its archetypal form has less than one), usually as a youngling, and doesn't have all the archetypal form's special abilities (or can't use them as often, or uses them as at a lower caster level). As it advances through higher HD, it gains special abilities and improves its existing ones, usually increases in size, and its natural weapons and armour become more powerful (like the monk's unarmed strike). Each monstrous race would get a table in the MM similar to the class tables in PHB chapter 3. Advancement beyond the archetypal racial levels is by character classes.

Every race gets at least a fraction of a racial HD, which class HD do NOT replace. The PHB races would probably get one each, which for PCs would replace the always-maxed HD gained at first level. An advantage would be that group total HD (hereinafter THD) became a more size-independent measure of a party's strength than total ECL is now; two level-1 characters are stronger than one level-2 character, and under this proposal they'd have the same THD as one level-3 character assuming you give each of the PHB races 1 HD. Another advantage would be that a halfling or gnome could receive a smaller HD to reflect that their smaller bodies can't sustain as much damage (in terms of litres of blood lost, cubic cm of flesh and blood destroyed, etc.). As well, you'd be able to create PHB-race characters (usually NPCs, but potentially PCs in unusual campaigns) with no levels instead of using the Commoner class, or with a fractional level (something like DMG 3.0's apprentice level) in Fighter instead of using the Warrior class.

CR and EL would also be eliminated; it's been claimed plenty of times that (contrary to Savage Species p.6 sidebar) the differences between what CR measures and what ECL measures are insignificant in practice, and the exceptions, if any, could be redesigned. EL would be replaced with the enemies' THD, and CR and ECL with the individual's HD. A table or formula generated through play-testing (replacing table 3-1 in the DMG) would indicate the THD of an easy/typical/hard combat encounter if the PCs' THD was X, or perhaps the estimated percentage chance of the PCs winning if the PCs' THD was X and the NPCs' THD was Y.

Comments?
Kirael
04-01-07, 06:17 PM ... April Fool's ?
seahen
04-01-07, 06:26 PM ... April Fool's ?

Hecks no. April Fool's jokes have to be played before noon, and I live in UTC-4 so it was well past noon when I posted this.
Kirael
04-01-07, 06:38 PM Well, that's an houserule i didn't know about : here, we can make April Fool's joke for all day if we want.

But, back on topic...

Changing hit dices changes everything about the creature...
For exemple, if you change a gnoll's two d8 hit dices into three d4 hit dices, and that gnoll takes one more hit dice, he'll get a higher BAB, higher saves and more skill points.
For creatures with high LA, by changing things the way you do, you'll actually give them much more power.
...what's your point in doing that ?
seahen
04-01-07, 07:11 PM Well, that's an houserule i didn't know about : here, we can make April Fool's joke for all day if we want.

I guess it's a Canadian rule.

Changing hit dices changes everything about the creature...
For exemple, if you change a gnoll's two d8 hit dices into three d4 hit dices, and that gnoll takes one more hit dice, he'll get a higher BAB, higher saves and more skill points.

Not necessarily. Just replace MM Table 4-1 with a separate table for each monster, so a gnoll has three levels of gnoll instead of two levels of humanoid. (And because gnolls advance past the archetype by character class, the table would only be three rows.) It could be something like this:

Level BAB Fort Ref/Will Ability Adjustments Size
1 +0 +2 +0 STR +2, INT -2, CHA -2 S
2 +1 +3 +0 STR +3, INT -2, CHA -2 M
3 +1 +3 +0 STR +4, CON +2, INT -2, CHA -2 M

The BAB is low for a combatant, and the ref and will saves are worse than for any of the PC classes, but the ability score increases compensate for this. We've now got (at least a draft of) a balanced class.
Kirael
04-01-07, 07:43 PM ...which is not consistent with the standard classes : your save progression is neither the strong nor the weak one.

For each monster, you'll have to create such a class, with different progressions each time ? I wish you luck : that's a lot of work.
seahen
04-01-07, 09:57 PM For each monster, you'll have to create such a class, with different progressions each time ? I wish you luck : that's a lot of work.

It wouldn't be different progressions every time, because once enough had been done, a set of reusable progressions like PHB table 3-1 would emerge. It could be done for all the PCable or cohortable monsters in the Monster Manual (i.e. all those that don't currently have level adjustment of dash) in one person-week. It's only slightly more complicated than the monster-class-creation process described in Savage Species.

Another example, probably the most complicated that would come up (and which took me about two hours): the mind flayer. Hit dice 15d3+15 (45), skill points 18 times (1 + INT modifier) [63].

Level BAB Frt/Rf Will ST/CON DX IN WS/CHA ECastL Special
1 +1 +0 +1 +0 +0 +4 +2 -- Improved grab, extract, tentacles 1d2
2 +2 +0 +1 +0 +1 +4 +2 -- Mind blast 20'/1d4 rounds
3 +2 +0 +2 +0 +1 +4 +3 --
4 +2 +1 +2 +0 +1 +5* +3 --
5 +3 +1 +2 +0 +1 +5 +3 -- Tentacles 1d3
6 +3 +1 +3 +0 +2 +5 +3 --
7 +3 +1 +3 +1 +2 +5 +4 1 Charm monster
8 +4 +1 +3 +1 +2 +6* +4 1 Mind blast 40'/2d4 rounds
9 +4 +1 +4 +1 +2 +6 +4 2 Tentacles 1d4, detect thoughts
10 +4 +2 +4 +1 +3 +6 +4 3
11 +5 +2 +4 +1 +3 +6 +5 4 Levitate
12 +5 +2 +5 +1 +3 +7* +5 5
13 +5 +2 +5 +1 +3 +7 +5 6 Plane shift
14 +6 +2 +5 +1 +4 +7 +5 7 Mind blast 60'/3d4 rounds
15 +6 +2 +6 +2 +4 +8 +6 8 Suggestion

*May be replaced with increases in other abilities if the player so chooses because they are the regular every-fourth-level increases.
Segan
04-02-07, 01:39 PM I like that idea. That's what I was suggesting a little bit ago in a post.

Maybe you would like to try and to develop a racial progression for every monster available as a race (or make available as a race).

I think, I will try out one right now.

Edit: Here's my idea of an ogre racial progression. Note, it's just an idea, not a final version. You can make changes as you think they would fit better.

HD BAB Fort Ref Will Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha Size Special
1d8 +0 +2 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +1
2d8 +1 +3 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2, Diehard
3d8 +2 +3 +1 +1 +2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2
4d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3, Weapon Focus (choose type)
5d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3
6d8 +4 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5, Power Attack
7d8 +5 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5
8d8 +6\1 +6 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6
9d8 +6\1 +6 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6
10d8 +7\2 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7
11d8 +8\3 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7
12d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8
13d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8
14d8 +10\5 +9 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9
15d8 +11\6\1 +9 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9
16d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10
17d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10
18d8 +13\8\3 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11
19d8 +14\9\4 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11
20d8 +15\10\5 +12 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +12
seahen
04-02-07, 05:22 PM Here's my idea of an ogre racial progression. Note, it's just an idea, not a final version. You can make changes as you think they would fit better.

HD BAB Fort Ref Will Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha Size Special
1d8 +0 +2 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +1
2d8 +1 +3 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2, Diehard
3d8 +2 +3 +1 +1 +2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2
4d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3, Weapon Focus (choose type)
5d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3
6d8 +4 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5, Power Attack
7d8 +5 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5
8d8 +6\1 +6 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6
9d8 +6\1 +6 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6
10d8 +7\2 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7
11d8 +8\3 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7
12d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8
13d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8
14d8 +10\5 +9 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9
15d8 +11\6\1 +9 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9
16d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10
17d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10
18d8 +13\8\3 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11
19d8 +14\9\4 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11
20d8 +15\10\5 +12 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +12

This isn't like my proposal. Ogres have an ECL of 6, beyond which they advance by character class, so the goal is to create a six-level ogre class that approximately equals the archetypal ogre (left side of table on MM p.199) once it reaches sixth level. An example would be the following:

Lv HD Size Str Dex Con Int Cha BAB Fort R/W Skill Pts AC Notes
1 1d4 S +4 -2 +4 -4 -4 +0 +2 +0 4*(2+Int mod) +0 Feat, darkvision 60', low-light vision
2 2d4 S +4 +1 +3 +0 2+Int mod +1
3 3d4 M +6 +1 +3 +0 2+Int mod +2 Feat
4 4d4 M +8* +2 +4 +0 2+Int mod +3
5 5d4 L +9 +2 +4 +1 2+Int mod +4
6 6d4 L +10 +3 +5 +1 2+Int mod +5 Feat

This would decrease the archetypal average HP to 27 instead of 29, but increase the Fort save by +1, so the differences probably even out.

The ogre mage is a special case; one presumably has to become a full-grown ogre before becoming an ogre mage. Since ogre mages have ECL of 12, and ogres have ECL 6, we want to allow an ogre to become an ogre mage over the course of six levels. What I'd do is create mage as a special character class with the following table:

Lv HD Dex Con Int Wis Cha Skill Pts Notes
1 1d2 0 0 +1 0 +2 1+Int mod Sleep, charm person 1/day
2 2d2 +1 +1 +2 +1 +4* 1+Int mod Polymorph, gaseous form 1/day
3 3d2 +1 +1 +4 +2 +5 1+Int mod Feat; cone of cold 1/day, darkness 2/day
4 4d2 +1 +1 +5 +2 +7 1+Int mod Invisibility 2/day
5 5d2 +2 +2 +7 +3 +8 1+Int mod Darkness at will
6 6d2 +2 +2 +8 +4 +10* 1+Int mod Feat; invisibility at will

(This class grants no increases in base attack or save bonuses. Because the ability adjustments are relative to the 6th-level ogre before he became a mage, they stack with the ogre adjustments and add up to +10 Str, +6 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha. I'd be open to the idea of making it available to non-ogres and/or extending it past sixth level with more powerful spell-like abilities.)

*A +1 increase in another ability may be substituted for one point of this increase, since it's the regular increase gained every four levels.
Segan
04-03-07, 02:06 PM As I said, this was only a rough idea, something you would need to work on. Anyway, I would not desperately try to fit the old hp values into the new ones by lowering the single Hit Die. Just my opinion, since I like to use the HD for monsters in DMG.

And the ogre mage should be viewed as a significantly different monster race and therefore it's racial progression should be completely independent of an ogre's.
But again, that's just my opinion.

And also, I would pay attention when a monster increases a size while advancing in HD. A medium creature gains +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Dex and +2 Natural Armor, when gaining the large size. I based my progression off the guidelines from the MM.
seahen
04-07-07, 01:24 PM And also, I would pay attention when a monster increases a size while advancing in HD. A medium creature gains +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Dex and +2 Natural Armor, when gaining the large size.

I don't find that anywhere in the PHB or the MM. The description for Enlarge Person spell says it's +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 attack, -1 AC, no change to Con.
MingT
04-08-07, 02:17 AM If you are talking about a massive rewrite then as far as I'm concerned this falls well short.

The big test is this.

Every truly "playable" monster race needs to be as viable at being ALL of the core classes as say a Dwarf or Elf is.

Anything short of that and every single monster race you create material for is only really usable to 1 quater, or one eight of the character concepts players might want to use it for.

After all if you're doing it again from scratch you should make sure you aim for the big target, ogre PCs as viable and versatile as elves.

Anyway, regardless of that, have you considered creating monster class rules based on monster TYPE rather than individual monster entries and having all specific monster powers be selectable abilities of the type classes? Less writing covers more monsters in a more versatile manner.

That still doesn't hit the big target but its far more "elegant" that just making a narrow class for every last variant of elemental, dragon or even hag.
Segan
04-08-07, 04:16 AM I don't find that anywhere in the PHB or the MM. The description for Enlarge Person spell says it's +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 attack, -1 AC, no change to Con.

Page 291 in MM, table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size.

Heck, it even says it in SRD: Size Increases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)
Xeviat-DM
04-08-07, 04:32 AM This doesn't seem to simplify as much as you seem to want it to, at least in my opinion. If you're willing to go through this much work, then you might as well attempt to rebalance all racial creatures so that their HD and CR are equal, though I don't see this happening very easily.

I am in the process of creating a class calculator that also works out well as a racial calculator. In its preliminary form, it can price any racial HD, showing just how much room there is left for other abilities. When I tested humanoid HD, for instance, I found them to be missing quite a number of points, while dragon and outsider HD were missing far less (infact, dragon and outsider HD were almost perfect, though plain). Since classes add up to 200 points on average, and PHB races add up to 10 points on average (if one throws out the dismally low -2 point half-orc), then each level adjustment should be 10 points as well.

When its finished, I'll recalculate LAs for my games.
seahen
04-09-07, 02:01 AM This doesn't seem to simplify as much as you seem to want it to, at least in my opinion. If you're willing to go through this much work, then you might as well attempt to rebalance all racial creatures so that their HD and CR are equal, though I don't see this happening very easily.

You mean that creatures that get very small (d2 and d3) HD under my system should either be weakened or given more average HP?

Since classes add up to 200 points on average, and PHB races add up to 10 points on average (if one throws out the dismally low -2 point half-orc), then each level adjustment should be 10 points as well.

You mean 200 points at 20th level? If so, that's a good argument for giving each of the PHB races one racial HD (in place of the maximized class HD at first level).
seahen
04-09-07, 02:11 AM Page 291 in MM, table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size.

That table seems to contradict the descriptions of Reduce and Enlarge Person (which give only +2 Str going from S to M or M to L), as well as the stat tables for elementals (which give +4). But let's just say the ability-score adjustments on my table *include* size adjustments, making for a much more gradual transition than that given by the table you cite.
Segan
04-09-07, 12:32 PM That table seems to contradict the descriptions of Reduce and Enlarge Person (which give only +2 Str going from S to M or M to L), as well as the stat tables for elementals (which give +4). But let's just say the ability-score adjustments on my table *include* size adjustments, making for a much more gradual transition than that given by the table you cite.

Hm...guess, I should address this contradiction in the General D&D forum.
Segan
04-11-07, 01:16 PM Alright, I brought up that point in the General Forum, in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=825491) thread.

Basically, it's said Enlarge Person gives lesser benefits because it's magic.
When someone naturally increases his size, it wouldn't be magic, but natural.

So a racial progression including size changes should use the monser advancing tables in MM, since it's a natural process.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seahen 04-01-07, 06:03 PM	The following, an extension of proposals others have made on other forums, is a way to eliminate LA, CR, EL and ECL -- four variables that seem to be causing much confusion -- without making game balance harder for DMs. It would also eliminate at least one NPC class, measure NPC and PC strength (both individual and group) on the same scale, make PCs with zero or fractional character class levels possible, eliminate the rule of maxing the first PC HD without the fatalities this would normally cause, allow the PHB races to have different HD at the same class and level, and make a lot more races available (with DM's approval) in campaigns where the starting level is 1. In short, it would go a fair way toward making the game simpler and more "elegant," at least for DMs, broadening the audience. It would, though, mean some fairly substantial changes and therefore might have to wait for 4th Edition. Eliminate Level Adjustment altogether and alter the hit dice (say, from the gnoll's 2d8+2 (11) into 3d4+3 (10.5) or the giant owl's 4d10+4 (26) into 6d6+6 (27), so that the number of HD becomes equal to the ECL without significantly changing the average HP. Then, use number of HD wherever you currently use ECL, and that's one less variable to worry about. Maybe even call them racial levels instead of HD. The archetypal form of a monster becomes the middle or end of an advancement progression, rather than the beginning. Each race starts with 1 HD (unless its archetypal form has less than one), usually as a youngling, and doesn't have all the archetypal form's special abilities (or can't use them as often, or uses them as at a lower caster level). As it advances through higher HD, it gains special abilities and improves its existing ones, usually increases in size, and its natural weapons and armour become more powerful (like the monk's unarmed strike). Each monstrous race would get a table in the MM similar to the class tables in PHB chapter 3. Advancement beyond the archetypal racial levels is by character classes. Every race gets at least a fraction of a racial HD, which class HD do NOT replace. The PHB races would probably get one each, which for PCs would replace the always-maxed HD gained at first level. An advantage would be that group total HD (hereinafter THD) became a more size-independent measure of a party's strength than total ECL is now; two level-1 characters are stronger than one level-2 character, and under this proposal they'd have the same THD as one level-3 character assuming you give each of the PHB races 1 HD. Another advantage would be that a halfling or gnome could receive a smaller HD to reflect that their smaller bodies can't sustain as much damage (in terms of litres of blood lost, cubic cm of flesh and blood destroyed, etc.). As well, you'd be able to create PHB-race characters (usually NPCs, but potentially PCs in unusual campaigns) with no levels instead of using the Commoner class, or with a fractional level (something like DMG 3.0's apprentice level) in Fighter instead of using the Warrior class. CR and EL would also be eliminated; it's been claimed plenty of times that (contrary to Savage Species p.6 sidebar) the differences between what CR measures and what ECL measures are insignificant in practice, and the exceptions, if any, could be redesigned. EL would be replaced with the enemies' THD, and CR and ECL with the individual's HD. A table or formula generated through play-testing (replacing table 3-1 in the DMG) would indicate the THD of an easy/typical/hard combat encounter if the PCs' THD was X, or perhaps the estimated percentage chance of the PCs winning if the PCs' THD was X and the NPCs' THD was Y. Comments?
Kirael 04-01-07, 06:17 PM	... April Fool's ?
seahen 04-01-07, 06:26 PM	... April Fool's ? Hecks no. April Fool's jokes have to be played before noon, and I live in UTC-4 so it was well past noon when I posted this.
Kirael 04-01-07, 06:38 PM	Well, that's an houserule i didn't know about : here, we can make April Fool's joke for all day if we want. But, back on topic... Changing hit dices changes everything about the creature... For exemple, if you change a gnoll's two d8 hit dices into three d4 hit dices, and that gnoll takes one more hit dice, he'll get a higher BAB, higher saves and more skill points. For creatures with high LA, by changing things the way you do, you'll actually give them much more power. ...what's your point in doing that ?
seahen 04-01-07, 07:11 PM	Well, that's an houserule i didn't know about : here, we can make April Fool's joke for all day if we want. I guess it's a Canadian rule. Changing hit dices changes everything about the creature... For exemple, if you change a gnoll's two d8 hit dices into three d4 hit dices, and that gnoll takes one more hit dice, he'll get a higher BAB, higher saves and more skill points. Not necessarily. Just replace MM Table 4-1 with a separate table for each monster, so a gnoll has three levels of gnoll instead of two levels of humanoid. (And because gnolls advance past the archetype by character class, the table would only be three rows.) It could be something like this: Level BAB Fort Ref/Will Ability Adjustments Size 1 +0 +2 +0 STR +2, INT -2, CHA -2 S 2 +1 +3 +0 STR +3, INT -2, CHA -2 M 3 +1 +3 +0 STR +4, CON +2, INT -2, CHA -2 M The BAB is low for a combatant, and the ref and will saves are worse than for any of the PC classes, but the ability score increases compensate for this. We've now got (at least a draft of) a balanced class.
Kirael 04-01-07, 07:43 PM	...which is not consistent with the standard classes : your save progression is neither the strong nor the weak one. For each monster, you'll have to create such a class, with different progressions each time ? I wish you luck : that's a lot of work.
seahen 04-01-07, 09:57 PM	For each monster, you'll have to create such a class, with different progressions each time ? I wish you luck : that's a lot of work. It wouldn't be different progressions every time, because once enough had been done, a set of reusable progressions like PHB table 3-1 would emerge. It could be done for all the PCable or cohortable monsters in the Monster Manual (i.e. all those that don't currently have level adjustment of dash) in one person-week. It's only slightly more complicated than the monster-class-creation process described in Savage Species. Another example, probably the most complicated that would come up (and which took me about two hours): the mind flayer. Hit dice 15d3+15 (45), skill points 18 times (1 + INT modifier) [63]. Level BAB Frt/Rf Will ST/CON DX IN WS/CHA ECastL Special 1 +1 +0 +1 +0 +0 +4 +2 -- Improved grab, extract, tentacles 1d2 2 +2 +0 +1 +0 +1 +4 +2 -- Mind blast 20'/1d4 rounds 3 +2 +0 +2 +0 +1 +4 +3 -- 4 +2 +1 +2 +0 +1 +5* +3 -- 5 +3 +1 +2 +0 +1 +5 +3 -- Tentacles 1d3 6 +3 +1 +3 +0 +2 +5 +3 -- 7 +3 +1 +3 +1 +2 +5 +4 1 Charm monster 8 +4 +1 +3 +1 +2 +6* +4 1 Mind blast 40'/2d4 rounds 9 +4 +1 +4 +1 +2 +6 +4 2 Tentacles 1d4, detect thoughts 10 +4 +2 +4 +1 +3 +6 +4 3 11 +5 +2 +4 +1 +3 +6 +5 4 Levitate 12 +5 +2 +5 +1 +3 +7* +5 5 13 +5 +2 +5 +1 +3 +7 +5 6 Plane shift 14 +6 +2 +5 +1 +4 +7 +5 7 Mind blast 60'/3d4 rounds 15 +6 +2 +6 +2 +4 +8 +6 8 Suggestion *May be replaced with increases in other abilities if the player so chooses because they are the regular every-fourth-level increases.
Segan 04-02-07, 01:39 PM	I like that idea. That's what I was suggesting a little bit ago in a post. Maybe you would like to try and to develop a racial progression for every monster available as a race (or make available as a race). I think, I will try out one right now. Edit: Here's my idea of an ogre racial progression. Note, it's just an idea, not a final version. You can make changes as you think they would fit better. HD BAB Fort Ref Will Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha Size Special 1d8 +0 +2 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +1 2d8 +1 +3 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2, Diehard 3d8 +2 +3 +1 +1 +2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2 4d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3, Weapon Focus (choose type) 5d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3 6d8 +4 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5, Power Attack 7d8 +5 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5 8d8 +6\1 +6 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6 9d8 +6\1 +6 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6 10d8 +7\2 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7 11d8 +8\3 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7 12d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8 13d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8 14d8 +10\5 +9 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9 15d8 +11\6\1 +9 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9 16d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10 17d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10 18d8 +13\8\3 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11 19d8 +14\9\4 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11 20d8 +15\10\5 +12 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +12
seahen 04-02-07, 05:22 PM	Here's my idea of an ogre racial progression. Note, it's just an idea, not a final version. You can make changes as you think they would fit better. HD BAB Fort Ref Will Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha Size Special 1d8 +0 +2 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +1 2d8 +1 +3 +0 +0 -2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2, Diehard 3d8 +2 +3 +1 +1 +2 +2 -2 -4 +0 -4 S Natural Armor +2 4d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3, Weapon Focus (choose type) 5d8 +3 +4 +1 +1 +2 +0 +0 -4 +0 -4 M Natural Armor +3 6d8 +4 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5, Power Attack 7d8 +5 +5 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +5 8d8 +6\1 +6 +2 +2 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6 9d8 +6\1 +6 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +6 10d8 +7\2 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7 11d8 +8\3 +7 +3 +3 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +7 12d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8 13d8 +9\4 +8 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +8 14d8 +10\5 +9 +4 +4 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9 15d8 +11\6\1 +9 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +9 16d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10 17d8 +12\7\2 +10 +5 +5 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +10 18d8 +13\8\3 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11 19d8 +14\9\4 +11 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +11 20d8 +15\10\5 +12 +6 +6 +10 -2 +4 -4 +0 -4 L Natural Armor +12 This isn't like my proposal. Ogres have an ECL of 6, beyond which they advance by character class, so the goal is to create a six-level ogre class that approximately equals the archetypal ogre (left side of table on MM p.199) once it reaches sixth level. An example would be the following: Lv HD Size Str Dex Con Int Cha BAB Fort R/W Skill Pts AC Notes 1 1d4 S +4 -2 +4 -4 -4 +0 +2 +0 4(2+Int mod) +0 Feat, darkvision 60', low-light vision 2 2d4 S +4 +1 +3 +0 2+Int mod +1 3 3d4 M +6 +1 +3 +0 2+Int mod +2 Feat 4 4d4 M +8 +2 +4 +0 2+Int mod +3 5 5d4 L +9 +2 +4 +1 2+Int mod +4 6 6d4 L +10 +3 +5 +1 2+Int mod +5 Feat This would decrease the archetypal average HP to 27 instead of 29, but increase the Fort save by +1, so the differences probably even out. The ogre mage is a special case; one presumably has to become a full-grown ogre before becoming an ogre mage. Since ogre mages have ECL of 12, and ogres have ECL 6, we want to allow an ogre to become an ogre mage over the course of six levels. What I'd do is create mage as a special character class with the following table: Lv HD Dex Con Int Wis Cha Skill Pts Notes 1 1d2 0 0 +1 0 +2 1+Int mod Sleep, charm person 1/day 2 2d2 +1 +1 +2 +1 +4* 1+Int mod Polymorph, gaseous form 1/day 3 3d2 +1 +1 +4 +2 +5 1+Int mod Feat; cone of cold 1/day, darkness 2/day 4 4d2 +1 +1 +5 +2 +7 1+Int mod Invisibility 2/day 5 5d2 +2 +2 +7 +3 +8 1+Int mod Darkness at will 6 6d2 +2 +2 +8 +4 +10* 1+Int mod Feat; invisibility at will (This class grants no increases in base attack or save bonuses. Because the ability adjustments are relative to the 6th-level ogre before he became a mage, they stack with the ogre adjustments and add up to +10 Str, +6 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha. I'd be open to the idea of making it available to non-ogres and/or extending it past sixth level with more powerful spell-like abilities.) *A +1 increase in another ability may be substituted for one point of this increase, since it's the regular increase gained every four levels.
Segan 04-03-07, 02:06 PM	As I said, this was only a rough idea, something you would need to work on. Anyway, I would not desperately try to fit the old hp values into the new ones by lowering the single Hit Die. Just my opinion, since I like to use the HD for monsters in DMG. And the ogre mage should be viewed as a significantly different monster race and therefore it's racial progression should be completely independent of an ogre's. But again, that's just my opinion. And also, I would pay attention when a monster increases a size while advancing in HD. A medium creature gains +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Dex and +2 Natural Armor, when gaining the large size. I based my progression off the guidelines from the MM.
seahen 04-07-07, 01:24 PM	And also, I would pay attention when a monster increases a size while advancing in HD. A medium creature gains +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Dex and +2 Natural Armor, when gaining the large size. I don't find that anywhere in the PHB or the MM. The description for Enlarge Person spell says it's +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 attack, -1 AC, no change to Con.
MingT 04-08-07, 02:17 AM	If you are talking about a massive rewrite then as far as I'm concerned this falls well short. The big test is this. Every truly "playable" monster race needs to be as viable at being ALL of the core classes as say a Dwarf or Elf is. Anything short of that and every single monster race you create material for is only really usable to 1 quater, or one eight of the character concepts players might want to use it for. After all if you're doing it again from scratch you should make sure you aim for the big target, ogre PCs as viable and versatile as elves. Anyway, regardless of that, have you considered creating monster class rules based on monster TYPE rather than individual monster entries and having all specific monster powers be selectable abilities of the type classes? Less writing covers more monsters in a more versatile manner. That still doesn't hit the big target but its far more "elegant" that just making a narrow class for every last variant of elemental, dragon or even hag.
Segan 04-08-07, 04:16 AM	I don't find that anywhere in the PHB or the MM. The description for Enlarge Person spell says it's +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 attack, -1 AC, no change to Con. Page 291 in MM, table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size. Heck, it even says it in SRD: Size Increases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)
Xeviat-DM 04-08-07, 04:32 AM	This doesn't seem to simplify as much as you seem to want it to, at least in my opinion. If you're willing to go through this much work, then you might as well attempt to rebalance all racial creatures so that their HD and CR are equal, though I don't see this happening very easily. I am in the process of creating a class calculator that also works out well as a racial calculator. In its preliminary form, it can price any racial HD, showing just how much room there is left for other abilities. When I tested humanoid HD, for instance, I found them to be missing quite a number of points, while dragon and outsider HD were missing far less (infact, dragon and outsider HD were almost perfect, though plain). Since classes add up to 200 points on average, and PHB races add up to 10 points on average (if one throws out the dismally low -2 point half-orc), then each level adjustment should be 10 points as well. When its finished, I'll recalculate LAs for my games.
seahen 04-09-07, 02:01 AM	This doesn't seem to simplify as much as you seem to want it to, at least in my opinion. If you're willing to go through this much work, then you might as well attempt to rebalance all racial creatures so that their HD and CR are equal, though I don't see this happening very easily. You mean that creatures that get very small (d2 and d3) HD under my system should either be weakened or given more average HP? Since classes add up to 200 points on average, and PHB races add up to 10 points on average (if one throws out the dismally low -2 point half-orc), then each level adjustment should be 10 points as well. You mean 200 points at 20th level? If so, that's a good argument for giving each of the PHB races one racial HD (in place of the maximized class HD at first level).
seahen 04-09-07, 02:11 AM	Page 291 in MM, table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size. That table seems to contradict the descriptions of Reduce and Enlarge Person (which give only +2 Str going from S to M or M to L), as well as the stat tables for elementals (which give +4). But let's just say the ability-score adjustments on my table include size adjustments, making for a much more gradual transition than that given by the table you cite.
Segan 04-09-07, 12:32 PM	That table seems to contradict the descriptions of Reduce and Enlarge Person (which give only +2 Str going from S to M or M to L), as well as the stat tables for elementals (which give +4). But let's just say the ability-score adjustments on my table include size adjustments, making for a much more gradual transition than that given by the table you cite. Hm...guess, I should address this contradiction in the General D&D forum.
Segan 04-11-07, 01:16 PM	Alright, I brought up that point in the General Forum, in this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=825491) thread. Basically, it's said Enlarge Person gives lesser benefits because it's magic. When someone naturally increases his size, it wouldn't be magic, but natural. So a racial progression including size changes should use the monser advancing tables in MM, since it's a natural process.