Size Categories: Andre The Giant & Little Beaver [Archive] - Wizards Community

Size Categories: Andre The Giant & Little Beaver [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jersey Cowboy
03-01-07, 04:21 PM Forgive me my use of the term "midget;" I thought "dwarf" and "little person" would be confusing in the framework of D&D rules.

I've had it asked of me, what rules are in place for playing someone like Andre the Giant (a very LARGE medium-sized character, and the best thing to ever come out of France), or to play as Little Beaver (a very SMALL medium-sized character; Little Beaver was a midget pro-wrestler).

I think the Andre the Giant-type character wouldn't be so hard to figure out; he's a very tall/powerful physical specimen of his race. This would be a human with 18 Str and 18 Con, but relatively low Dex (Andre, especially in his later years, wasn't the most agile guy).

The Little Beaver character would be more difficult to make. After watching many movies, specials, and old "mini-wrestling" matches, you can see the many physical hardships that midgets face. While some of them can be quite physically active and effective (midget wrestlers), most seem to have difficulties. How would one go about making such a character? Would Little Beaver be a small-sized human?

This sorta popped into my head when I (a massive 5'3") stood beside my training partner (a legitimate 7'2"). It got me to thinking that, though we're both technically medium-sized humans, there's no way I'd ever be wielding the same bastard sword as he was. Then I got to thinking about even larger size differences, such as Andre & Little Beaver.

Pro-wrestling aside, does anyone have any idea how this would work?
Rhydur Meith
03-01-07, 08:00 PM I'd say, don't worry that much about it. This is the game where Giants (large) are larger than ogres (still large) , and ogres are larger than humans (medium); but half-giants (half human/half giant) are medium and half-ogres (half humans/half ogres) are large. Sometimes you just roll the dice like the books say.

If that isn't good enough for you, you could add sub categories, like

Medium-Large
Medium-Small

and split the differences between the size categories. (Don't have books in front of me right now, don't want to get one of the adjustments wrong).

Or, you could rule that the largest of humans are large, and the smallest of humans are small. (Probably true, since the tallest humans have been around 9' tall, the heaviest over a 1000 lbs; the smallest less than 2' tall and the lightest less than 30 Lbs, full grown).

On a related question, do giant races have "midgets"?
Dwarves have anorexics?
Elves have stockier folks?
Tall hobbits?

Likely have to assume they do. Many the Half-Giant is medium because only a pretty small giant could mate with a human.

And shouldn't there be half ogre/orcs? Half giant/ogres? Half cloud/half storm giants? Sorry, way OT!
zook1shoe666
03-01-07, 08:37 PM maybe talk about it with your DM. those are some interesting points and you don't have to be one of the average members of a race ;).
philnicau
03-02-07, 12:16 AM I'd make Andre a Half-Giant, they are Medium sized but are treated as large for weapons use.
besides i remember him a Feszik in The Princess Bride.
Dethro
03-02-07, 12:47 AM Andre would be large-sized. You look at the maximum height for a medium-sized character, and then work it out from there. Kane, Undertaker, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, when I've built them, have all been large-sized humans.
Jaxgaret
03-02-07, 12:59 AM Andre would be large-sized. You look at the maximum height for a medium-sized character, and then work it out from there. Kane, Undertaker, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, when I've built them, have all been large-sized humans.

The threshold for Medium/Large is 8 feet, not 7. Thus all of those mentioned humans are Medium sized.

The difference, mechanically, between Medium and Large size is only a few things - most notably the Reach ability. By D&D rules, Andre the Giant is not large enough to gain what is called Reach when fighting creatures a foot or two shorter than him.
Dethro
03-02-07, 01:38 AM Oops, my mistake.
The reason I normally build such characters as large-sized is because it is the easiest way to demonstrate their abilities above normal-sized people.
Jersey Cowboy
03-02-07, 07:27 AM Wow, getting some nice feedback on this one ;)

Maybe, instead of building Andre (7'4"), Big Show (7'2"), Kane (6'11"), Yoko (6'5"/650 lbs.), and the Giant Gonzalez (7'7") etc as large-size characters, maybe give them the Powerful Build extraordinary ability? Because again, there's no way I'm gonna wield the same bastard sword as Andre, he's 2 feet taller than I am!

And, going that route, perhaps a "Pitiful Build" extraordinary ability would need to be made for little guys such as Little Beaver and Dink the Clown? Where they're forced to use weapons one size smaller than they are?
zook1shoe666
03-02-07, 08:15 AM i think they'd qualify for the powerful build trait.
revaar
03-02-07, 02:23 PM Wow, getting some nice feedback on this one ;)

Maybe, instead of building Andre (7'4"), Big Show (7'2"), Kane (6'11"), Yoko (6'5"/650 lbs.), and the Giant Gonzalez (7'7") etc as large-size characters, maybe give them the Powerful Build extraordinary ability? Because again, there's no way I'm gonna wield the same bastard sword as Andre, he's 2 feet taller than I am!

And, going that route, perhaps a "Pitiful Build" extraordinary ability would need to be made for little guys such as Little Beaver and Dink the Clown? Where they're forced to use weapons one size smaller than they are?

i agree with the giving of Powerful Build to Andre and the likes, and as for a "pitiful build" varient, i think i've seen a WotC printed thing called slight build that basically worked the same way as powerful build, in that it gavea ll the advantages of being smaller (i.e. bonus to hide and a few other things i think) with out the penalties.
Ryusage
03-02-07, 02:30 PM Powerful build and slight build would work very well in these cases.
Jersey Cowboy
03-04-07, 12:03 AM Where can one find "slight build?" I don't recall seeing that one off the top of my head. Thanks!
Caliborn
03-04-07, 08:13 AM Slight Build can be found in the Races of The Dragon Web Enhancement dealing with Kobolds.
Willie the Duck
03-04-07, 04:13 PM Wow, getting some nice feedback on this one ;)

Maybe, instead of building Andre (7'4"), Big Show (7'2"), Kane (6'11"), Yoko (6'5"/650 lbs.), and the Giant Gonzalez (7'7") etc as large-size characters, maybe give them the Powerful Build extraordinary ability? Because again, there's no way I'm gonna wield the same bastard sword as Andre, he's 2 feet taller than I am!

And, going that route, perhaps a "Pitiful Build" extraordinary ability would need to be made for little guys such as Little Beaver and Dink the Clown? Where they're forced to use weapons one size smaller than they are?

I am pretty sure that there are humans of small size that would be considered fully small-sized characters (the form of dwarfism that makes you genuinely not grow in size past childhood, as opposed to lacking in height). Small is small, not inhumanly small, and movie hobbits clearly are the size of children, not smaller than children.

Large on the other hand has taken on new meaning in 3rd edition. Remember when gnolls were size L (cut off used to be 7' racial average)? Now it has specific meaning about reach and how much space you take up. Andre the giant had a longer reach than I, and probably couldn't fit in my car seat, but a car seat built for him would not seem 'rediculous' for me to use. I would say humans could get powerful build, not be size L.
ragoftag
03-04-07, 09:37 PM I have a 'slight built' for a number of Fey/Elf in my game, will have to check RoD tomorrow. Mine is basically Powerful Build reversed. Deep Forest 'Elves' are an arboreal Fey that use this, works quite well.
Jaxgaret
03-04-07, 09:40 PM If you wanted to make a Human with the Powerful Build trait and have them be LA +0, you will have to take something away. Taking away the bonus feat and the extra skill point per level would be just about balanced. You can also change their Favored Class from FC:Any to FC:Fighter, and that would definitely be balanced.
Balthanon
03-04-07, 09:42 PM Pro-wrestling aside, does anyone have any idea how this would work?

In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, they handled the large end of the spectrum with a feat - Jotunbrud. It gives bonuses for being Large size to most modifiers like tripping and grappling, but doesn't actually allow them to use a large weapon like Powerful Build.

Doing something like that allows you to work within the framework of the rules, using the human bonus feat to express something your character was born with. I'm sure a similar feat could be used to emulate some of the bonuses (and perhaps partial penalties) for being on the smaller end of the spectrum. (Or alternatively, it could be a flaw, giving a bonus feat, if it is severe, as in the case of someone who truly has dwarfism.)
GSonic7
03-04-07, 09:57 PM Maybe you could use a template?

Large Build:
This creature is abnormally large for its race.
-2 Dex. Larger creatures tend to be less nimble.
Powerful Build. Larger creatures can wield weapons larger than the typical size used by their race, without any penalties.
LA +0.

Something similar could be made for an abnormally small creature for the race, such as like +2 Dex, and they wield weapons of a size smaller?

Though, I'm not very experienced at playing, so that might be broken on both ends.. Or quite underpowered and appropriate for what your going for.
MikeN
03-04-07, 10:33 PM The interesting part is, the tallest it is legal to build a human in "core" D&D is 6'6" tall. And the heaviest is 250 lbs.

Therefore, most NBA players and a large percentage of NFL players could not be built as "human" in core D&D :rolleyes:

Check out your PHB and you'll see what I mean.
Jersey Cowboy
03-05-07, 01:35 AM The interesting part is, the tallest it is legal to build a human in "core" D&D is 6'6" tall. And the heaviest is 250 lbs.

Therefore, most NBA players and a large percentage of NFL players could not be built as "human" in core D&D :rolleyes:

Check out your PHB and you'll see what I mean.

I always wondered about this. Growing up, I was always a huge pro-wrestling fan. When making a D&D character, especially a human, I would often look to different pro-wrestlers to get realistic* heights/weights. Going by the PHB charts, you end up with a lot of skinny characters. To this day I still often look to pro wrestlers and other pro athletes for ideas on the build of my characters/NPCs.
Balthanon
03-05-07, 01:02 PM The interesting part is, the tallest it is legal to build a human in "core" D&D is 6'6" tall. And the heaviest is 250 lbs.

Therefore, most NBA players and a large percentage of NFL players could not be built as "human" in core D&D :rolleyes:

Check out your PHB and you'll see what I mean.

They are probably going off of a more medieval scale. Humans have grown larger (in more ways than one) on average in the intervening centuries. During the medieval ages, I believe someone over 6 foot was extremely rare.
The_Geek
03-05-07, 01:22 PM Of some small relevance ...

The SCA, at it's annual bash down in Pennsylvania, often has a 'Giants vs. Dwarfs' battle. The guidelines are slightly flexible, generally to allow twice as many dwarfs as giants (e.g. Max of 5'6", Min of 6'2").

One of the most interesting things is, even with such a minimal height difference, the 'Giants' tend to stomp the 'Dwarves'. One on one, the difference in reach and stride - as the weapons tend to be the same (limited by rules) - makes quite a difference.

Life isn't fair - for melee combat, bigger is generally better.

That said, I'm not a fan of putting something in the game to represent the differences between Medium sized creatures. Abilities tend to do it reasonably well. If you want to represent a larger character, a higher strength alone works for the offense, although I'm not quite sure how to represent the defensive advantage - in that respect, D20 with it's penalties for being larger has actually got it backwards!
Balthanon
03-05-07, 05:32 PM That said, I'm not a fan of putting something in the game to represent the differences between Medium sized creatures. Abilities tend to do it reasonably well. If you want to represent a larger character, a higher strength alone works for the offense, although I'm not quite sure how to represent the defensive advantage - in that respect, D20 with it's penalties for being larger has actually got it backwards!

If you're just using Strength, then Constitution would be the benefit that represents their defensive advantage. There is still a lot more of them to hit. (Reach is the other defensive ability that is represented by being Large generally.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jersey Cowboy 03-01-07, 04:21 PM	Forgive me my use of the term "midget;" I thought "dwarf" and "little person" would be confusing in the framework of D&D rules. I've had it asked of me, what rules are in place for playing someone like Andre the Giant (a very LARGE medium-sized character, and the best thing to ever come out of France), or to play as Little Beaver (a very SMALL medium-sized character; Little Beaver was a midget pro-wrestler). I think the Andre the Giant-type character wouldn't be so hard to figure out; he's a very tall/powerful physical specimen of his race. This would be a human with 18 Str and 18 Con, but relatively low Dex (Andre, especially in his later years, wasn't the most agile guy). The Little Beaver character would be more difficult to make. After watching many movies, specials, and old "mini-wrestling" matches, you can see the many physical hardships that midgets face. While some of them can be quite physically active and effective (midget wrestlers), most seem to have difficulties. How would one go about making such a character? Would Little Beaver be a small-sized human? This sorta popped into my head when I (a massive 5'3") stood beside my training partner (a legitimate 7'2"). It got me to thinking that, though we're both technically medium-sized humans, there's no way I'd ever be wielding the same bastard sword as he was. Then I got to thinking about even larger size differences, such as Andre & Little Beaver. Pro-wrestling aside, does anyone have any idea how this would work?
Rhydur Meith 03-01-07, 08:00 PM	I'd say, don't worry that much about it. This is the game where Giants (large) are larger than ogres (still large) , and ogres are larger than humans (medium); but half-giants (half human/half giant) are medium and half-ogres (half humans/half ogres) are large. Sometimes you just roll the dice like the books say. If that isn't good enough for you, you could add sub categories, like Medium-Large Medium-Small and split the differences between the size categories. (Don't have books in front of me right now, don't want to get one of the adjustments wrong). Or, you could rule that the largest of humans are large, and the smallest of humans are small. (Probably true, since the tallest humans have been around 9' tall, the heaviest over a 1000 lbs; the smallest less than 2' tall and the lightest less than 30 Lbs, full grown). On a related question, do giant races have "midgets"? Dwarves have anorexics? Elves have stockier folks? Tall hobbits? Likely have to assume they do. Many the Half-Giant is medium because only a pretty small giant could mate with a human. And shouldn't there be half ogre/orcs? Half giant/ogres? Half cloud/half storm giants? Sorry, way OT!
zook1shoe666 03-01-07, 08:37 PM	maybe talk about it with your DM. those are some interesting points and you don't have to be one of the average members of a race ;).
philnicau 03-02-07, 12:16 AM	I'd make Andre a Half-Giant, they are Medium sized but are treated as large for weapons use. besides i remember him a Feszik in The Princess Bride.
Dethro 03-02-07, 12:47 AM	Andre would be large-sized. You look at the maximum height for a medium-sized character, and then work it out from there. Kane, Undertaker, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, when I've built them, have all been large-sized humans.
Jaxgaret 03-02-07, 12:59 AM	Andre would be large-sized. You look at the maximum height for a medium-sized character, and then work it out from there. Kane, Undertaker, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, when I've built them, have all been large-sized humans. The threshold for Medium/Large is 8 feet, not 7. Thus all of those mentioned humans are Medium sized. The difference, mechanically, between Medium and Large size is only a few things - most notably the Reach ability. By D&D rules, Andre the Giant is not large enough to gain what is called Reach when fighting creatures a foot or two shorter than him.
Dethro 03-02-07, 01:38 AM	Oops, my mistake. The reason I normally build such characters as large-sized is because it is the easiest way to demonstrate their abilities above normal-sized people.
Jersey Cowboy 03-02-07, 07:27 AM	Wow, getting some nice feedback on this one ;) Maybe, instead of building Andre (7'4"), Big Show (7'2"), Kane (6'11"), Yoko (6'5"/650 lbs.), and the Giant Gonzalez (7'7") etc as large-size characters, maybe give them the Powerful Build extraordinary ability? Because again, there's no way I'm gonna wield the same bastard sword as Andre, he's 2 feet taller than I am! And, going that route, perhaps a "Pitiful Build" extraordinary ability would need to be made for little guys such as Little Beaver and Dink the Clown? Where they're forced to use weapons one size smaller than they are?
zook1shoe666 03-02-07, 08:15 AM	i think they'd qualify for the powerful build trait.
revaar 03-02-07, 02:23 PM	Wow, getting some nice feedback on this one ;) Maybe, instead of building Andre (7'4"), Big Show (7'2"), Kane (6'11"), Yoko (6'5"/650 lbs.), and the Giant Gonzalez (7'7") etc as large-size characters, maybe give them the Powerful Build extraordinary ability? Because again, there's no way I'm gonna wield the same bastard sword as Andre, he's 2 feet taller than I am! And, going that route, perhaps a "Pitiful Build" extraordinary ability would need to be made for little guys such as Little Beaver and Dink the Clown? Where they're forced to use weapons one size smaller than they are? i agree with the giving of Powerful Build to Andre and the likes, and as for a "pitiful build" varient, i think i've seen a WotC printed thing called slight build that basically worked the same way as powerful build, in that it gavea ll the advantages of being smaller (i.e. bonus to hide and a few other things i think) with out the penalties.
Ryusage 03-02-07, 02:30 PM	Powerful build and slight build would work very well in these cases.
Jersey Cowboy 03-04-07, 12:03 AM	Where can one find "slight build?" I don't recall seeing that one off the top of my head. Thanks!
Caliborn 03-04-07, 08:13 AM	Slight Build can be found in the Races of The Dragon Web Enhancement dealing with Kobolds.
Willie the Duck 03-04-07, 04:13 PM	Wow, getting some nice feedback on this one ;) Maybe, instead of building Andre (7'4"), Big Show (7'2"), Kane (6'11"), Yoko (6'5"/650 lbs.), and the Giant Gonzalez (7'7") etc as large-size characters, maybe give them the Powerful Build extraordinary ability? Because again, there's no way I'm gonna wield the same bastard sword as Andre, he's 2 feet taller than I am! And, going that route, perhaps a "Pitiful Build" extraordinary ability would need to be made for little guys such as Little Beaver and Dink the Clown? Where they're forced to use weapons one size smaller than they are? I am pretty sure that there are humans of small size that would be considered fully small-sized characters (the form of dwarfism that makes you genuinely not grow in size past childhood, as opposed to lacking in height). Small is small, not inhumanly small, and movie hobbits clearly are the size of children, not smaller than children. Large on the other hand has taken on new meaning in 3rd edition. Remember when gnolls were size L (cut off used to be 7' racial average)? Now it has specific meaning about reach and how much space you take up. Andre the giant had a longer reach than I, and probably couldn't fit in my car seat, but a car seat built for him would not seem 'rediculous' for me to use. I would say humans could get powerful build, not be size L.
ragoftag 03-04-07, 09:37 PM	I have a 'slight built' for a number of Fey/Elf in my game, will have to check RoD tomorrow. Mine is basically Powerful Build reversed. Deep Forest 'Elves' are an arboreal Fey that use this, works quite well.
Jaxgaret 03-04-07, 09:40 PM	If you wanted to make a Human with the Powerful Build trait and have them be LA +0, you will have to take something away. Taking away the bonus feat and the extra skill point per level would be just about balanced. You can also change their Favored Class from FC:Any to FC:Fighter, and that would definitely be balanced.
Balthanon 03-04-07, 09:42 PM	Pro-wrestling aside, does anyone have any idea how this would work? In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, they handled the large end of the spectrum with a feat - Jotunbrud. It gives bonuses for being Large size to most modifiers like tripping and grappling, but doesn't actually allow them to use a large weapon like Powerful Build. Doing something like that allows you to work within the framework of the rules, using the human bonus feat to express something your character was born with. I'm sure a similar feat could be used to emulate some of the bonuses (and perhaps partial penalties) for being on the smaller end of the spectrum. (Or alternatively, it could be a flaw, giving a bonus feat, if it is severe, as in the case of someone who truly has dwarfism.)
GSonic7 03-04-07, 09:57 PM	Maybe you could use a template? Large Build: This creature is abnormally large for its race. -2 Dex. Larger creatures tend to be less nimble. Powerful Build. Larger creatures can wield weapons larger than the typical size used by their race, without any penalties. LA +0. Something similar could be made for an abnormally small creature for the race, such as like +2 Dex, and they wield weapons of a size smaller? Though, I'm not very experienced at playing, so that might be broken on both ends.. Or quite underpowered and appropriate for what your going for.
MikeN 03-04-07, 10:33 PM	The interesting part is, the tallest it is legal to build a human in "core" D&D is 6'6" tall. And the heaviest is 250 lbs. Therefore, most NBA players and a large percentage of NFL players could not be built as "human" in core D&D :rolleyes: Check out your PHB and you'll see what I mean.
Jersey Cowboy 03-05-07, 01:35 AM	The interesting part is, the tallest it is legal to build a human in "core" D&D is 6'6" tall. And the heaviest is 250 lbs. Therefore, most NBA players and a large percentage of NFL players could not be built as "human" in core D&D :rolleyes: Check out your PHB and you'll see what I mean. I always wondered about this. Growing up, I was always a huge pro-wrestling fan. When making a D&D character, especially a human, I would often look to different pro-wrestlers to get realistic* heights/weights. Going by the PHB charts, you end up with a lot of skinny characters. To this day I still often look to pro wrestlers and other pro athletes for ideas on the build of my characters/NPCs.
Balthanon 03-05-07, 01:02 PM	The interesting part is, the tallest it is legal to build a human in "core" D&D is 6'6" tall. And the heaviest is 250 lbs. Therefore, most NBA players and a large percentage of NFL players could not be built as "human" in core D&D :rolleyes: Check out your PHB and you'll see what I mean. They are probably going off of a more medieval scale. Humans have grown larger (in more ways than one) on average in the intervening centuries. During the medieval ages, I believe someone over 6 foot was extremely rare.
The_Geek 03-05-07, 01:22 PM	Of some small relevance ... The SCA, at it's annual bash down in Pennsylvania, often has a 'Giants vs. Dwarfs' battle. The guidelines are slightly flexible, generally to allow twice as many dwarfs as giants (e.g. Max of 5'6", Min of 6'2"). One of the most interesting things is, even with such a minimal height difference, the 'Giants' tend to stomp the 'Dwarves'. One on one, the difference in reach and stride - as the weapons tend to be the same (limited by rules) - makes quite a difference. Life isn't fair - for melee combat, bigger is generally better. That said, I'm not a fan of putting something in the game to represent the differences between Medium sized creatures. Abilities tend to do it reasonably well. If you want to represent a larger character, a higher strength alone works for the offense, although I'm not quite sure how to represent the defensive advantage - in that respect, D20 with it's penalties for being larger has actually got it backwards!
Balthanon 03-05-07, 05:32 PM	That said, I'm not a fan of putting something in the game to represent the differences between Medium sized creatures. Abilities tend to do it reasonably well. If you want to represent a larger character, a higher strength alone works for the offense, although I'm not quite sure how to represent the defensive advantage - in that respect, D20 with it's penalties for being larger has actually got it backwards! If you're just using Strength, then Constitution would be the benefit that represents their defensive advantage. There is still a lot more of them to hit. (Reach is the other defensive ability that is represented by being Large generally.)