Skeleton PC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skeleton PC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
the_rooster
04-22-07, 12:54 AM I'm in a 6th level campaign where the DM has agreed to let me reroll my character. We're an evil gourp and I want a skeleton PC. problemis no INT, CHA of 1 and a Wis of 10 don't work too well. Is there somewhere I can find a skeleton template/race that works for PCs?
adgramaine
04-22-07, 12:57 AM Ask your DM if you can begin Awakened. It's a spell, not a template. And it's very specific, so if they've got an open mind, their like to let you run with it.
the_rooster
04-22-07, 01:02 AM That doesn't solve the Charisma or widsom problem...as he will be playing as a paladin of tyranny.

Would it be broken/overpowered to sue the MM guide and just give him regular CHA, WIS and INT scores?
StruckingFuggle
04-22-07, 01:27 AM That doesn't solve the Charisma or widsom problem...as he will be playing as a paladin of tyranny.

And it still doesn't solve the "cleric npc foes" problem... :p
Return of the Flumph
04-22-07, 01:42 AM Use the Bone template from the Book of Vile Darkness. Basically a sentient skeleton with its mental scores intact.
runestar
04-22-07, 01:47 AM Is there anything in particular about a skeleton you are interested in, or just the coolness factor of being an undead? If it is the latter, could you consider the necropolitan template in Libris Mortis, and just have it that you look like a skeleton?:P
Nghtpunisher
04-22-07, 02:03 AM look up a race called the Eleti its a skeletal race in the book of MasterCraft Anthology made for legends and lairs D20 system look it up and let me know what you think if you cant find it then ill email you the info ok

ps there are main feets just for not being smited and turned and this race is just mean
adgramaine
04-22-07, 02:10 AM Use the Bone template from the Book of Vile Darkness. Basically a sentient skeleton with its mental scores intact.
I forgot about that one...
Point, and match. :D
Nghtpunisher
04-22-07, 02:15 AM I forgot about that one...
Point, and match. :D

to be honest i only found it like 6 days ago when i was rummaging through my old books. (old books mean i haven't played in a few months lol:P )
the_rooster
04-22-07, 02:25 AM :banghead: I actually had a bone template creature at one point...can't believe I forgot about that.

So I'll do that or necorpolitan, thanks for the help!
Nghtpunisher
04-22-07, 02:34 AM the bonus to the eleti is they get mad bonus for turn res id like you to try them out and let me know so maybe i can play one in an evil campaign but i never have the guts to run an evil game people are rather ruthless in my group he he
the_rooster
04-22-07, 11:14 PM the bonus to the eleti is they get mad bonus for turn res id like you to try them out and let me know so maybe i can play one in an evil campaign but i never have the guts to run an evil game people are rather ruthless in my group he he

I have no access to those books at all..so...no worries though.
Part-Human2
04-23-07, 01:50 AM And the LA for The Bone Creature (3rd edition) template is....?

Baneguards (4 HD + 3 LA, FR:MoF) were updated to 3.5ed in the PGtF Web Enhancement and are essentially skeletons with Blink and Magic Missiles.
Archangel_Tyrael
04-23-07, 01:57 AM I don't believe that there is any level adjustment at all.

Having no Con score (and corresponding lack of hit points) is considered equal to having undead immunities and special abilities, I guess.
Necromas
04-23-07, 03:02 AM Bone creature...

Gains:

Claws
Natural Armor
Undead Immunities
Dex Bonus
d12 HD
Cold Immunity
Half Damage from Piercing and Bludgeoning

Keeps:

BAB
Saves
Flight (if it has non-magical wings)
Mental Stats (no stat penalties)

Loses:

Con Score

Definitely does not look like LA 0 to me.
StruckingFuggle
04-23-07, 03:07 AM Gains: d12 HD
Loses: Con Score

Keep in mind, no con score = no bonus hp.

Yeah, you have a d12 hit die, but on average:
a d4 hit die breaks even with 18 con, then passes you;
a d6 hit die breaks even with 16 con, then passes you;
a d8 hit die breaks even with 14 con, then passes you;
a d10 hit die breaks even with 12 con;
and a d12 hit die breaks even with ANY positive con mod passes you

Unless you're a mage or a rogue, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well). Which is why all undead get a d12 HD.

Also:
Loses: old type (yes?)
Gains: new type (undead) - which also means you can be turned and are subject to undead-targeting spells, some of which can be nasty.

Also:
It's a switchover in healing. Hope your cleric's evil.
Necromas
04-23-07, 03:13 AM It's still ridiculous compared to other undead templates.
Perseus_Stoned
04-23-07, 03:24 AM Unless you're a mage or a rogue, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well).

Nitpick (assuming core base classes only):
Unless you're a mage, rogue, or bard, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well).
Dragoloth
04-23-07, 12:41 PM Karrnathi skeletons (Eberron) have an intelligence of 11. Check with your DM about using one.

EDIT: PCs are usually more powerful, when making a monstrous PC we usually roll stats then add/subtract the racial modifiers.
malykoth
04-23-07, 01:00 PM I've always heard the bone creature was LA +2, but I don't have a source for that info...still, it seems to be fair, I'd say.
RobbyPants
04-23-07, 01:25 PM Keep in mind, no con score = no bonus hp.

Yeah, you have a d12 hit die, but on average:
a d4 hit die breaks even with 18 con, then passes you;
a d6 hit die breaks even with 16 con, then passes you;
a d8 hit die breaks even with 14 con, then passes you;
a d10 hit die breaks even with 12 con;
and a d12 hit die breaks even with ANY positive con mod passes you

Unless you're a mage or a rogue, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well). Which is why all undead get a d12 HD.

Also:
Loses: old type (yes?)
Gains: new type (undead) - which also means you can be turned and are subject to undead-targeting spells, some of which can be nasty.

Also:
It's a switchover in healing. Hope your cleric's evil.
All quite true. Two other important issues:

No natural healing.
You die at 0 HP instead of -10.

I'm not saying this is LA +0, but I'm just saying that the d12 hit dice aren't all they're cracked up to be if you're undead.
Nghtpunisher
04-23-07, 02:28 PM Religion: :eek: Some eleti offer homage to gods of death. believing that they owe their existence to the beneficence of these gods. Others worship gods appropriate to their skills and interests.
Followers of good-aligned deities are rare: These gods often show a vengeful aspect due to the ability of their priests to destroy undead.

Alignment: Eleti are independent creatures, given to no alignment. They may be malicious, kind, or lawless depending on their own nature. Eleti do not trust others enough to reveal them selves.
Each is raised by its parent, taught how to move in the world and interact with others. Because of this closeness. an eletum often has an alignment similar to its parent's.

Physical Description: These creatures appear as animate humanoid skeletons. l little flesh clings to their bones. and their joints are held together solely by magic. Their eyes come closest to seeming alive. They are normal eyes, typically green or blue. but sometimes brown. These eyes. set within sockets of a barren skull, mark their strangeness.
Eleti stand five to six feet tall and weigh 60 to 80 pounds . Eleti of small size are three to four feet tall and weigh 20 to 25 pounds. This weight is clearly more than bones. but it is unknown what adds to their weight.
Eleti dress to hide their appearance. They favor cold climates. where every one wears many layers of cloth and fur. While around other races. they try to blend in by covering their faces with veils, masks,or hoods.

Language: Eleti have no language of their own . They speak Common but may learn any other languages they choose. Despite the lack of a throat, eleti can speak clearly. Their voices sound human. though there is a subtle hollow ring to be distinguished by astute listeners.

Adventurers: The lives of eleti are adventurous. Rarely able to stay in one place for long. they wander through barren or inhospitable lands 10 avoid the attention of those who would destroy them. Some eleti adventure to seek wealth and fame. believing that success will help others accept them . Others adventure to gain the power they need to exact revenge. Always alone among living men. eleti also adventure to seek allies or follow ers in common cause. whether that cause is good or evil.

Names : Eleti usually use only one name. Most use human names from the ands around them. Others use more guttural names from ore or other humanoid tribes. Few eleti use elven or dwarven names. because their intense mistrust of undead makes it difficult for eleti to remain near those races.ELETI RACIAL TRAITS
+2 Dexterity : The magical nature that binds the ELETI together gives them gr eat speed and flexibility.

No Constitution: ELETI are not living creatures and have no metabolism. They do not have a Constitution score, and as a result. ELETI are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects. A spell casting eletum uses its Charisma modifier when making Concentration checks.
Medium or Small size: ELETI may be of either Medium or Small size . They gain all the normal benefits and restrictions for Their size.
Darkvision: Eleti can see up to 60 feet with out any source of light. Dark-vision is black and white only. but otherwise.. it functions just like normal sight.
Eleti base speed is 30 feet for Medium-size or 20 feet if they are Small.
+2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Eleti are naturally adept at stealth.
Immunities: Eleti are immune to cold damage and take only half damage from piercing or slashing weapons as they lack internal organs.
Undead: As undead creatures. eleti are immune to mind-influencing effects, poison , sleep, paralysis. stunning, and disease. They are also not subject to critical hits , subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain. or death from massive damage.
Turn and Rebuke Undead: Eleti are subject to turning attempts by clerics and paladins. For purposes of turning. the eletum possesses a number of Hit Dice equal to its class levels. Turn and rebuke attempts have their normal effects on eleti . If a tum undead attempt would normally destroy an undead of the eletum's level outright. it receives a Will saving throw (DC 10 + cleric's class level + cleric's Charisma modifier). If the save fails , the eletum is destroyed. Even if the save succeeds, the eletum is still subjected to the turn effect.
Command Undead: Successful command undead attempts allow the eletum a Will save (DC 10 + cleric 's class level + cleric's Charisma modifier). If the Will save fails, the cleric may control the eletum as if by a dominate person spell. If the save succeeds, the eletum is able to retain control, though it is still a affected as if by charm person.
Turn Resistance : Eleti may gain Turn Resistance as a general feat whenever they are allowed to learn a new feat.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Eleti may encounter any sorts of creatures during their travels and often learn to speak a broad variety of languages.
Favored Class : Fighter. A multiclass eletum's fighter class does not count when determining whether it suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing. Level Equivalent: Class level s +3
StruckingFuggle
04-23-07, 06:36 PM Nitpick (assuming core base classes only):
Unless you're a mage, rogue, or bard, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well).

Oh. Right. Thank you. :)

I've always heard the bone creature was LA +2, but I don't have a source for that info...still, it seems to be fair, I'd say.

Does it seem fair? A quick test: Let's say there's a level three party. Would you really be (mechanically) conflicted with the choice between a Human Warblade 3 and a Bone Warblade 1? Let alone a Rogue or even a Caster...?

I wouldn't think so, and thus would say it's hardly worth a +2 LA.

All quite true. Two other important issues:

No natural healing.
You die at 0 HP instead of -10.

I'm not saying this is LA +0, but I'm just saying that the d12 hit dice aren't all they're cracked up to be if you're undead.

Oh, I forgot about adding those two things to the missed cons. Good point.

And yeah, I wasn't saying it's necessarily LA +0 with my last post, merely stating that the d12 HD isn't, in and of itself, much (if any) of a major boost (unless you can somehow get your hands on Unholy Toughness).

(Me, I'd put it at LA +1 if buyoff is allowed, or LA +0 with some extra cleric npc enemies and/or necromancers if its not)
the_rooster
04-23-07, 07:08 PM Yeah, technically he's LA 0. But I think it's right on, myself.

Consider that a Necropolitan loses a level (as per ressurection), but has no LA, and they gain the ability to heal, as well as turn resistance. Plus, given a few levels, they catch up and replace the lost level for all intents and purposes.

LA +1, to me, is too strict for a bone creature. I can't be healed as easily--and don't heal naturally. I am now affected by many spells and abilities I wasn't subject to before. I die at 0 HP. Going into town without a disguise spell is a joke. My HP are likely worse are maybe slightly better than before.

As someone said before, choosing between a Bone Hexblade-2 or Human Hexblade-3 is easy. I'd go human. Free feats, skills, better HP, easier to heal, not shunned by society. Or a +2 to AC, Cold Immunity, DR-5/bludgeoning and a claw attack I will never use but lose a level and racial qualities?

Is there a LA +.5 anywhere? it unfortunately falls in the middle.

If I took no +2 to Dex, and switched the cold immunity to Endure cold-10 (bones still get brittle in cold). You think that would balance out to no LA?

EDIT: On second thought, maybe t is LA+1...because it has an intelligence score, it heals as normal.
malykoth
04-23-07, 09:06 PM I love how "undead immunities" is just glossed over...mentioned in passing. Shall we have a look at these minor little advantages?

Darkvision 60'
Immunity to ALL mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonleathal damage, ability drain, or energy drain.
Immune to damage to physical ability scores, as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score.
Does not need to breathe, eat, or sleep.

...well, I guess everyone's correct...all that couldn't possibly be worth even one level, let alone two. Especially since no one has the slightest idea how to get over those horribly crippling disadvantages the undead come with. Why, the first cleric you run across will pwn you! Perhaps undeadness should count as a negative level?
the_rooster
04-23-07, 09:12 PM I love how "undead immunities" is just glossed over...mentioned in passing. Shall we have a look at these minor little advantages?

Darkvision 60'
Immunity to ALL mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonleathal damage, ability drain, or energy drain.
Immune to damage to physical ability scores, as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score.
Does not need to breathe, eat, or sleep.

...well, I guess everyone's correct...all that couldn't possibly be worth even one level, let alone two. Especially since no one has the slightest idea how to get over those horribly crippling disadvantages the undead come with. Why, the first cleric you run across will pwn you! Perhaps undeadness should count as a negative level?

QFT. After really looking at my character, I self-instituted the level adjustment. I'm not a powergamer, and just wanted a cool, undead anti-paladin. I think I accomplished that. thanks for all the help!
Part-Human2
04-23-07, 09:23 PM The Undead type was definitely worth +1 LA alone. Although Libris Mortis introduced many problems, they also added a number of pro-undead solutions (PrCs, protective magic items, spells, feats, the Evolved Undead template, etc).

One campaign we have is undead and the advantages so far are incredible -- fear, charm, energy drain, posion gas traps, stirges, disease, drowning, fatigue, monsters wanting to eat us (eat what Mr monster?)? No problem. There are ways to heal undead -- you just have to be self-sufficient because you're not likely to find a potion of inflict wounds. Yes we worry about no negative hps so we use Damage as Armor Conversion (UA, armor converts damage to non-leathal).

A nonability score makes a dump stat and provides immunities which overlap with those granted by undead.

Turn Resistance is easy to come by as a feat, spell, magic item, PrC class ability in Libris Mortis.

The Bone Creature template has no listed LA. It's not LA 0 by any stretch of the imagination. It's a 3rd edition template so it needs to be converted by a DM (read DR 5/bludgeoning instead of 1/2 damage). It should be LA +2 because of its benefits. Big deal that a undead has vulnerabilities -- a living PC has even more vulnerabilities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
the_rooster 04-22-07, 12:54 AM	I'm in a 6th level campaign where the DM has agreed to let me reroll my character. We're an evil gourp and I want a skeleton PC. problemis no INT, CHA of 1 and a Wis of 10 don't work too well. Is there somewhere I can find a skeleton template/race that works for PCs?
adgramaine 04-22-07, 12:57 AM	Ask your DM if you can begin Awakened. It's a spell, not a template. And it's very specific, so if they've got an open mind, their like to let you run with it.
the_rooster 04-22-07, 01:02 AM	That doesn't solve the Charisma or widsom problem...as he will be playing as a paladin of tyranny. Would it be broken/overpowered to sue the MM guide and just give him regular CHA, WIS and INT scores?
StruckingFuggle 04-22-07, 01:27 AM	That doesn't solve the Charisma or widsom problem...as he will be playing as a paladin of tyranny. And it still doesn't solve the "cleric npc foes" problem... :p
Return of the Flumph 04-22-07, 01:42 AM	Use the Bone template from the Book of Vile Darkness. Basically a sentient skeleton with its mental scores intact.
runestar 04-22-07, 01:47 AM	Is there anything in particular about a skeleton you are interested in, or just the coolness factor of being an undead? If it is the latter, could you consider the necropolitan template in Libris Mortis, and just have it that you look like a skeleton?:P
Nghtpunisher 04-22-07, 02:03 AM	look up a race called the Eleti its a skeletal race in the book of MasterCraft Anthology made for legends and lairs D20 system look it up and let me know what you think if you cant find it then ill email you the info ok ps there are main feets just for not being smited and turned and this race is just mean
adgramaine 04-22-07, 02:10 AM	Use the Bone template from the Book of Vile Darkness. Basically a sentient skeleton with its mental scores intact. I forgot about that one... Point, and match. :D
Nghtpunisher 04-22-07, 02:15 AM	I forgot about that one... Point, and match. :D to be honest i only found it like 6 days ago when i was rummaging through my old books. (old books mean i haven't played in a few months lol:P )
the_rooster 04-22-07, 02:25 AM	:banghead: I actually had a bone template creature at one point...can't believe I forgot about that. So I'll do that or necorpolitan, thanks for the help!
Nghtpunisher 04-22-07, 02:34 AM	the bonus to the eleti is they get mad bonus for turn res id like you to try them out and let me know so maybe i can play one in an evil campaign but i never have the guts to run an evil game people are rather ruthless in my group he he
the_rooster 04-22-07, 11:14 PM	the bonus to the eleti is they get mad bonus for turn res id like you to try them out and let me know so maybe i can play one in an evil campaign but i never have the guts to run an evil game people are rather ruthless in my group he he I have no access to those books at all..so...no worries though.
Part-Human2 04-23-07, 01:50 AM	And the LA for The Bone Creature (3rd edition) template is....? Baneguards (4 HD + 3 LA, FR:MoF) were updated to 3.5ed in the PGtF Web Enhancement and are essentially skeletons with Blink and Magic Missiles.
Archangel_Tyrael 04-23-07, 01:57 AM	I don't believe that there is any level adjustment at all. Having no Con score (and corresponding lack of hit points) is considered equal to having undead immunities and special abilities, I guess.
Necromas 04-23-07, 03:02 AM	Bone creature... Gains: Claws Natural Armor Undead Immunities Dex Bonus d12 HD Cold Immunity Half Damage from Piercing and Bludgeoning Keeps: BAB Saves Flight (if it has non-magical wings) Mental Stats (no stat penalties) Loses: Con Score Definitely does not look like LA 0 to me.
StruckingFuggle 04-23-07, 03:07 AM	Gains: d12 HD Loses: Con Score Keep in mind, no con score = no bonus hp. Yeah, you have a d12 hit die, but on average: a d4 hit die breaks even with 18 con, then passes you; a d6 hit die breaks even with 16 con, then passes you; a d8 hit die breaks even with 14 con, then passes you; a d10 hit die breaks even with 12 con; and a d12 hit die breaks even with ANY positive con mod passes you Unless you're a mage or a rogue, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well). Which is why all undead get a d12 HD. Also: Loses: old type (yes?) Gains: new type (undead) - which also means you can be turned and are subject to undead-targeting spells, some of which can be nasty. Also: It's a switchover in healing. Hope your cleric's evil.
Necromas 04-23-07, 03:13 AM	It's still ridiculous compared to other undead templates.
Perseus_Stoned 04-23-07, 03:24 AM	Unless you're a mage or a rogue, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well). Nitpick (assuming core base classes only): Unless you're a mage, rogue, or bard, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well).
Dragoloth 04-23-07, 12:41 PM	Karrnathi skeletons (Eberron) have an intelligence of 11. Check with your DM about using one. EDIT: PCs are usually more powerful, when making a monstrous PC we usually roll stats then add/subtract the racial modifiers.
malykoth 04-23-07, 01:00 PM	I've always heard the bone creature was LA +2, but I don't have a source for that info...still, it seems to be fair, I'd say.
RobbyPants 04-23-07, 01:25 PM	Keep in mind, no con score = no bonus hp. Yeah, you have a d12 hit die, but on average: a d4 hit die breaks even with 18 con, then passes you; a d6 hit die breaks even with 16 con, then passes you; a d8 hit die breaks even with 14 con, then passes you; a d10 hit die breaks even with 12 con; and a d12 hit die breaks even with ANY positive con mod passes you Unless you're a mage or a rogue, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well). Which is why all undead get a d12 HD. Also: Loses: old type (yes?) Gains: new type (undead) - which also means you can be turned and are subject to undead-targeting spells, some of which can be nasty. Also: It's a switchover in healing. Hope your cleric's evil. All quite true. Two other important issues: No natural healing. You die at 0 HP instead of -10. I'm not saying this is LA +0, but I'm just saying that the d12 hit dice aren't all they're cracked up to be if you're undead.
Nghtpunisher 04-23-07, 02:28 PM	Religion: :eek: Some eleti offer homage to gods of death. believing that they owe their existence to the beneficence of these gods. Others worship gods appropriate to their skills and interests. Followers of good-aligned deities are rare: These gods often show a vengeful aspect due to the ability of their priests to destroy undead. Alignment: Eleti are independent creatures, given to no alignment. They may be malicious, kind, or lawless depending on their own nature. Eleti do not trust others enough to reveal them selves. Each is raised by its parent, taught how to move in the world and interact with others. Because of this closeness. an eletum often has an alignment similar to its parent's. Physical Description: These creatures appear as animate humanoid skeletons. l little flesh clings to their bones. and their joints are held together solely by magic. Their eyes come closest to seeming alive. They are normal eyes, typically green or blue. but sometimes brown. These eyes. set within sockets of a barren skull, mark their strangeness. Eleti stand five to six feet tall and weigh 60 to 80 pounds . Eleti of small size are three to four feet tall and weigh 20 to 25 pounds. This weight is clearly more than bones. but it is unknown what adds to their weight. Eleti dress to hide their appearance. They favor cold climates. where every one wears many layers of cloth and fur. While around other races. they try to blend in by covering their faces with veils, masks,or hoods. Language: Eleti have no language of their own . They speak Common but may learn any other languages they choose. Despite the lack of a throat, eleti can speak clearly. Their voices sound human. though there is a subtle hollow ring to be distinguished by astute listeners. Adventurers: The lives of eleti are adventurous. Rarely able to stay in one place for long. they wander through barren or inhospitable lands 10 avoid the attention of those who would destroy them. Some eleti adventure to seek wealth and fame. believing that success will help others accept them . Others adventure to gain the power they need to exact revenge. Always alone among living men. eleti also adventure to seek allies or follow ers in common cause. whether that cause is good or evil. Names : Eleti usually use only one name. Most use human names from the ands around them. Others use more guttural names from ore or other humanoid tribes. Few eleti use elven or dwarven names. because their intense mistrust of undead makes it difficult for eleti to remain near those races.ELETI RACIAL TRAITS +2 Dexterity : The magical nature that binds the ELETI together gives them gr eat speed and flexibility. No Constitution: ELETI are not living creatures and have no metabolism. They do not have a Constitution score, and as a result. ELETI are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects. A spell casting eletum uses its Charisma modifier when making Concentration checks. Medium or Small size: ELETI may be of either Medium or Small size . They gain all the normal benefits and restrictions for Their size. Darkvision: Eleti can see up to 60 feet with out any source of light. Dark-vision is black and white only. but otherwise.. it functions just like normal sight. Eleti base speed is 30 feet for Medium-size or 20 feet if they are Small. +2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Eleti are naturally adept at stealth. Immunities: Eleti are immune to cold damage and take only half damage from piercing or slashing weapons as they lack internal organs. Undead: As undead creatures. eleti are immune to mind-influencing effects, poison , sleep, paralysis. stunning, and disease. They are also not subject to critical hits , subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain. or death from massive damage. Turn and Rebuke Undead: Eleti are subject to turning attempts by clerics and paladins. For purposes of turning. the eletum possesses a number of Hit Dice equal to its class levels. Turn and rebuke attempts have their normal effects on eleti . If a tum undead attempt would normally destroy an undead of the eletum's level outright. it receives a Will saving throw (DC 10 + cleric's class level + cleric's Charisma modifier). If the save fails , the eletum is destroyed. Even if the save succeeds, the eletum is still subjected to the turn effect. Command Undead: Successful command undead attempts allow the eletum a Will save (DC 10 + cleric 's class level + cleric's Charisma modifier). If the Will save fails, the cleric may control the eletum as if by a dominate person spell. If the save succeeds, the eletum is able to retain control, though it is still a affected as if by charm person. Turn Resistance : Eleti may gain Turn Resistance as a general feat whenever they are allowed to learn a new feat. Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Eleti may encounter any sorts of creatures during their travels and often learn to speak a broad variety of languages. Favored Class : Fighter. A multiclass eletum's fighter class does not count when determining whether it suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing. Level Equivalent: Class level s +3
StruckingFuggle 04-23-07, 06:36 PM	Nitpick (assuming core base classes only): Unless you're a mage, rogue, or bard, you're actually losing HP (unless you roll well). Oh. Right. Thank you. :) I've always heard the bone creature was LA +2, but I don't have a source for that info...still, it seems to be fair, I'd say. Does it seem fair? A quick test: Let's say there's a level three party. Would you really be (mechanically) conflicted with the choice between a Human Warblade 3 and a Bone Warblade 1? Let alone a Rogue or even a Caster...? I wouldn't think so, and thus would say it's hardly worth a +2 LA. All quite true. Two other important issues: No natural healing. You die at 0 HP instead of -10. I'm not saying this is LA +0, but I'm just saying that the d12 hit dice aren't all they're cracked up to be if you're undead. Oh, I forgot about adding those two things to the missed cons. Good point. And yeah, I wasn't saying it's necessarily LA +0 with my last post, merely stating that the d12 HD isn't, in and of itself, much (if any) of a major boost (unless you can somehow get your hands on Unholy Toughness). (Me, I'd put it at LA +1 if buyoff is allowed, or LA +0 with some extra cleric npc enemies and/or necromancers if its not)
the_rooster 04-23-07, 07:08 PM	Yeah, technically he's LA 0. But I think it's right on, myself. Consider that a Necropolitan loses a level (as per ressurection), but has no LA, and they gain the ability to heal, as well as turn resistance. Plus, given a few levels, they catch up and replace the lost level for all intents and purposes. LA +1, to me, is too strict for a bone creature. I can't be healed as easily--and don't heal naturally. I am now affected by many spells and abilities I wasn't subject to before. I die at 0 HP. Going into town without a disguise spell is a joke. My HP are likely worse are maybe slightly better than before. As someone said before, choosing between a Bone Hexblade-2 or Human Hexblade-3 is easy. I'd go human. Free feats, skills, better HP, easier to heal, not shunned by society. Or a +2 to AC, Cold Immunity, DR-5/bludgeoning and a claw attack I will never use but lose a level and racial qualities? Is there a LA +.5 anywhere? it unfortunately falls in the middle. If I took no +2 to Dex, and switched the cold immunity to Endure cold-10 (bones still get brittle in cold). You think that would balance out to no LA? EDIT: On second thought, maybe t is LA+1...because it has an intelligence score, it heals as normal.
malykoth 04-23-07, 09:06 PM	I love how "undead immunities" is just glossed over...mentioned in passing. Shall we have a look at these minor little advantages? Darkvision 60' Immunity to ALL mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. Not subject to critical hits, nonleathal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to physical ability scores, as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score. Does not need to breathe, eat, or sleep. ...well, I guess everyone's correct...all that couldn't possibly be worth even one level, let alone two. Especially since no one has the slightest idea how to get over those horribly crippling disadvantages the undead come with. Why, the first cleric you run across will pwn you! Perhaps undeadness should count as a negative level?
the_rooster 04-23-07, 09:12 PM	I love how "undead immunities" is just glossed over...mentioned in passing. Shall we have a look at these minor little advantages? Darkvision 60' Immunity to ALL mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. Not subject to critical hits, nonleathal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to physical ability scores, as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score. Does not need to breathe, eat, or sleep. ...well, I guess everyone's correct...all that couldn't possibly be worth even one level, let alone two. Especially since no one has the slightest idea how to get over those horribly crippling disadvantages the undead come with. Why, the first cleric you run across will pwn you! Perhaps undeadness should count as a negative level? QFT. After really looking at my character, I self-instituted the level adjustment. I'm not a powergamer, and just wanted a cool, undead anti-paladin. I think I accomplished that. thanks for all the help!
Part-Human2 04-23-07, 09:23 PM	The Undead type was definitely worth +1 LA alone. Although Libris Mortis introduced many problems, they also added a number of pro-undead solutions (PrCs, protective magic items, spells, feats, the Evolved Undead template, etc). One campaign we have is undead and the advantages so far are incredible -- fear, charm, energy drain, posion gas traps, stirges, disease, drowning, fatigue, monsters wanting to eat us (eat what Mr monster?)? No problem. There are ways to heal undead -- you just have to be self-sufficient because you're not likely to find a potion of inflict wounds. Yes we worry about no negative hps so we use Damage as Armor Conversion (UA, armor converts damage to non-leathal). A nonability score makes a dump stat and provides immunities which overlap with those granted by undead. Turn Resistance is easy to come by as a feat, spell, magic item, PrC class ability in Libris Mortis. The Bone Creature template has no listed LA. It's not LA 0 by any stretch of the imagination. It's a 3rd edition template so it needs to be converted by a DM (read DR 5/bludgeoning instead of 1/2 damage). It should be LA +2 because of its benefits. Big deal that a undead has vulnerabilities -- a living PC has even more vulnerabilities.