Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Misaru 05-12-07, 11:37 PM	I'm thinking of playing a monk, and I really like small characters, however small monks are penalized by lower unarmed and slower speed. Would it be legit to make a small race made without these penalties?
Tectorman 05-12-07, 11:48 PM	I don't know about the lower unarmed, but there are Small races that move as fast as normal ones. Off the top of my head, all I can think of is the Anthropomorphic Cat from Savage Species, but I'm sure there are others.
Misaru 05-12-07, 11:51 PM	I guess your right. Acctually, now that I looked in my MM (still only 3.0e) both goblin and kobolt have a speed of 30ft. But what about the unarmed bonus? I'm thinking I could just make a new race, but wouldn't that destroy the point of being small? Well, he's my attempt at it... Full-Foot Halfling -No Stat adjustment: Full-Foots are stronger than normal halflings, but not as nimble. -Small: As Small creatures, Halflings gain a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but they must use smaller weapons than humans use, and their lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of Medium-size. -Full-foot base speed is 30ft - Powerful build: Full-Foot’s large hands and feet give the halfling much more significance when dealing in matters dealing with size. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the full-foot is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A full-foot can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty, and his unarmed damage is that of Medium size. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. Unlike creatures normally with Powerful build, a full-foot is not to be considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. - +2 to Jump, Swim and Tumble. These bonuses are due to the size of thier hands and feet, creating greater padding and surface area. - +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. All halflings are surprisingly capable of avoid mishaps. - +2 morale bonus to Will saves. (Stacks with the above bonus). - +1 racial attack bonus with a thrown weapon: Throwing stones is a universal sport among halflings, and most have developed great aim. - +2 to Listen skill checks - Favored Class: Monk +1 Level Adjustment
Righter8 05-13-07, 12:23 AM	Ask yourself this: What game mechanics do I like about being small? If your answer is the +1 to ac and attacks, then you should accept the penalties as well. That's why they are there, to offset the inherent advantages of being small. If you are looking for the advantages of the "small" races as well as the advantages of the medium or larger races, I would assume (and hope) that a level adjustment would come in to play, as well as a good explanation for the increased benefits. Generally speaking, 2 characters of equal ability scores, class and HD, should be an equal match for each other, regardless of size. Removing the penalties for one while keeping the advantages will give an uneven bonus. Yes, some races are more inclined to have an advantage in certain classes over other races, but I'm trying to point out the game mechanics behind giving halflings a smaller damage potential and greater ac than an orc of equal class and blah, blah, blah...
Thief_of_Hope 05-13-07, 12:28 AM	I actually made a goblin monk for a campaign, and the speed was helpful, not to mention the bonuses to move silently and hide. I'm afraid there's no easy way around the lower unarmed damage, but for my monk, I used a feat in my Green Ronin Publishing book called Bastards & Bloodlines. The feat basically increases your natural attack damage by one die type (so d4 becomes d6), which means a small monk has the same unarmed damage as a medium monk for the cost of one feat. The feat is also found in Green Ronin's book Fang & Fury. Hope this helps!
DireHawk 05-13-07, 12:32 AM	This depends on how much of a RAW monkey you are, but I seem to remember seeing a small race with the powerful build quality. In case you don't know, powerful build is in the SRD as a racial ability of the half-giant, which reads: Powerful Build: The physical stature of lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. Now, according to RAW, Powerful Build does not technically apply to unarmed strikes. However, I personally think this is BS, and I know many people house rule this to increase damage from unarmed damage. Anyways, you could either find this race, or make your own using this build. I don't think powerful build by itself counts as a +1 LA, especially on a small creature, but still I wouldn't include too much more. [EDIT] There's also the feat in the SRD called Improved Natural Attack, which can be applied to an unarmed strike. And it can be taken multiple times.
Misaru 05-13-07, 12:56 AM	Sorry for sounding noobly, but what is RAW and SRD? And beyond that, many articles I have read have said that Unarmed attacks don't count as natural weapons except in the case of Magic Fang. But beyond that, thanks.
DireHawk 05-13-07, 01:07 AM	Oh, sorry. RAW stands for Rules As Written. A RAW Monkey is someone who can't possibly accept anything unless it's stated specifically in the rules or errata, even if those rules defy all logic or balance, and even if it would provide a flavor and fun to change things slightly. Obviously, I'm not a fan of RAW monkeys. As for the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/ This is the SRD. It stands for System Reference Document, and contains everything under the OGL, or Open Gamer License. Basically, most everything found in the core rule books is here.
Thief_of_Hope 05-13-07, 01:09 AM	RAW = Rules As Written SRD = System Resource Document The SRD is almost everything you find in the core rulebooks (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual) for free online, as a way for Wizards of the Coast to let people have the rules needed to play even if they don't have the core rulebooks. It can be found on Wizards of the Coast's website at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 although I personally prefer the website www.d20srd.org/ , because it has a search feature and, for me at least, is a little easier to read. All content of the SRD is open game content, basically meaning that you can't get in trouble for using it without paying for it. Edit: Whups, DireHawk beat me to it.
Tectorman 05-13-07, 01:11 AM	Well, the Monk Unarmed Strike: Natural or Not debate is made up of two camps. The first camp includes the PHB II, which has an example of a Monk with INA, the 3.5 FAQ, and the actual original text from the PHB which certainly allows for a Monk's Unarmed Strike to qualify for INA. The second camp includes people who refuse to let anything through their rule-mongering shields unless it's explicitly stated in the Core material or in the official errata. "Oh, it's in the 3.5 FAQ, but since that's not official we don't have to acknowledge that it's there. It's in the PHB II, but that's not Core, so we don't have to acknowledge that it's there." Did I mention that the second camp also hates puppies?
Ralp 05-13-07, 06:07 AM	If you're thinking of gnome or goblin or kobold or something, I can't help you, but Races of the Wild has halfling monk racial substitution levels that make up for some of disadvantages of Small size (using interesting mechanics rather than just offsetting the penalties).
Argo 05-13-07, 06:55 AM	Whisper Gnomes (from Races of Stone) move at 30 feet and get a host of other cool abilities. Take Improved Natural Attack to up your damage and you're good to go. For added fun, take the feat Ascetic Rogue from... Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer (can't remember which) which allows a Monk to multiclass as a Rogue with no penalty, and allows your Rogue and Monk levels to stack for determining things like unarmed damage. Also increases your Stunning Fist DC when you use it with a Sneak Attack. Then, grab the Silencing Strike feat from Races of Stone, so you can use a Sneak Attack to Stun and Silence someone simultaneously. That'll put some serious hurt on a caster.
obrysii 05-13-07, 09:56 AM	Remember that monks can take Improved Natural Attack to bump up their damage a size category. Consider that when making a Small monk.
emanresu 05-13-07, 01:24 PM	Is INA a Fighter feat?
fiendish_platypus 05-13-07, 01:43 PM	Is INA a Fighter feat? Its in the Monster Manual, near the back.
fiendish_platypus 05-13-07, 01:44 PM	Remember that monks can take Improved Natural Attack to bump up their damage a size category. Consider that when making a Small monk. ...or a medium one. Sorry for the double post.
Misaru 05-13-07, 03:11 PM	So... I should just scrap the sub-race I made in post #3 and give a lightfoot halfling the Improved Natural Attack. Sounds good, but I might as well bring this up: In someone elses post, I saw a feat that basically added to your monk levels when determining your unarmed damage. (Pho example: If I were a level 4 monk and had the feat <which lets say was +4>, my new unarmed damage is that of a level 8 monk.) Does this exist, and in which book?
fiendish_platypus 05-13-07, 03:17 PM	So... I should just scrap the sub-race I made in post #3 and give a lightfoot halfling the Improved Natural Attack. Sounds good, but I might as well bring this up: In someone elses post, I saw a feat that basically added to your monk levels when determining your unarmed damage. (Pho example: If I were a level 4 monk and had the feat <which lets say was +4>, my new unarmed damage is that of a level 8 monk.) Does this exist, and in which book? It exists, Complete Warrior, it's called Ascetic Rogue. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike and Sneak Attack.
Thief_of_Hope 05-13-07, 05:16 PM	So... I should just scrap the sub-race I made in post #3 and give a lightfoot halfling the Improved Natural Attack. Sounds good, but I might as well bring this up: In someone elses post, I saw a feat that basically added to your monk levels when determining your unarmed damage. (Pho example: If I were a level 4 monk and had the feat <which lets say was +4>, my new unarmed damage is that of a level 8 monk.) Does this exist, and in which book? I don't think there's a feat that exists, if I'm reading your post right, that simply treats you as however many levels higher than you are for your abilities. There are feats that allow your unarmed progression to continue if you multiclass , but they don't help for if you're going straight monk.
fiendish_platypus 05-13-07, 06:42 PM	Oops, my mistake, I read his post wrong, no, there's no feat like that, but there IS a magic item, called the Monk's Belt in the DMG, I thought he meant adding his other levels to his monk levels.
penchant 05-13-07, 07:48 PM	Here's and idea. Why not just play a human who is a 'little person'? Dwarfism, is not uncommon in any era. Simply take the human stats and change Medium to small.
fiendish_platypus 05-13-07, 09:01 PM	Here's and idea. Why not just play a human who is a 'little person'? Dwarfism, is not uncommon in any era. Simply take the human stats and change Medium to small. Ya, but then you're still stuck with the small penalties, that post didn't really help much.
squfof 05-13-07, 09:28 PM	I'm thinking of playing a monk, and I really like small characters, however small monks are penalized by lower unarmed and slower speed. Also keep in mind that you are going to take a big penalty using the stereotypical monk tactics, e.g., trip, grapple, disarm, etc., since you are taking a hit from both your reduced Str and size penalties. But maybe you don't care about that because being Small is more important than being a Monk, in which case a core halfling isn't so bad for LA +0 -- good racial skill bonuses, you can never have too many bonuses to saving throws, and a +1 racial bonus on thrown weapons and slings might factor in occasionally. If you decide that there are just too many negatives, you should consider Medium with a steady diet of Enlarge Person, or a Large race (I really like half-ogre). I have found that with monks, the bigger the better.
penchant 05-14-07, 01:34 AM	Ya, but then you're still stuck with the small penalties, that post didn't really help much. Well, sooooorrrryyyy! Small penalties: 2/3 movement 3/4 carrying capacity must use small weapons +1 to hit +1 to AC +4 to hide Size differences have benefits and penalties. They generally balance out.
KurenaiYami 05-14-07, 01:37 AM	Kobold! +1 Natural Armor, +2 Dexterity, and +1 Size modifier to AC means fun times.
Misaru 05-14-07, 01:56 AM	Also keep in mind that you are going to take a big penalty using the stereotypical monk tactics, e.g., trip, grapple, disarm, etc., since you are taking a hit from both your reduced Str and size penalties. But maybe you don't care about that because being Small is more important than being a Monk, in which case a core halfling isn't so bad for LA +0 -- good racial skill bonuses, you can never have too many bonuses to saving throws, and a +1 racial bonus on thrown weapons and slings might factor in occasionally. So, the new question would be for a small race with the Powerful Build trait (which has got to look funny on a halfling). Hmmm. Any known out there?
penchant 05-14-07, 05:03 AM	So... I should just scrap the sub-race I made in post #3 and give a lightfoot halfling the Improved Natural Attack. Sounds good, but I might as well bring this up: In someone elses post, I saw a feat that basically added to your monk levels when determining your unarmed damage. (Pho example: If I were a level 4 monk and had the feat <which lets say was +4>, my new unarmed damage is that of a level 8 monk.) Does this exist, and in which book? Missed this post. This feat is Superior Unarmed Strike and is in the PHBII. If you are a monk it adds +4 to your monk level for your damage.
Magon 05-14-07, 05:26 AM	supiror unarmed strike is also in the ToB
Count Arioch the 28th 05-14-07, 06:01 AM	That's why they are there, to offset the inherent advantages of being small. Say what? You do get +1 to hit and to ac, but you also get: an average of -1 damage to weapon rolls due to using smaller weapons, smaller unarmed strke damage In the cases with the core small races, you also get -1 to hit and to damage, negating the bonus to hit and increasing damage to -2 -6 to all jump checks (The halfling +2 to jump checks? It's a joke.) Furthermore, the penalty to strength in the case of the core small races increases that to -7 -4 to all grapple checks (And again, it's actually -5 due to strength penalties) Carrying capacity is reduced to 3/4, which is also bigger than it looks due to strength penalties. Small rogues can't sneak attack large creatures in melee. That's right, your halfling rogue can't sneak attack an ogre in melee, no matter how hard you try. ~~~~~ I would argue that the bonuses you get for being small are in no way, shape, or form equal to the penalties you get for being small, and it's not unreasonable to want to reduce those, since WotC seems to hate small PCs with a burning passion.
Steely_Dan 05-14-07, 06:16 AM	As others have said, the following three things are a small monk's friend in regards to unarmed strike damage: -Improved Natural Attack (feat) -Superior Unarmed Strike (feat) -Monk's belt (magic item)
obrysii 05-14-07, 10:12 AM	In the cases with the core small races, you also get -1 to hit and to damage, negating the bonus to hit and increasing damage to -2 Weapon Finesse fixes the problem of -1 to hit. -6 to all jump checks (The halfling +2 to jump checks? It's a joke.) Furthermore, the penalty to strength in the case of the core small races increases that to -7 Wait. -4 due to speed - 1 due to strength = -5 to Jump? Where's the two other points? Small rogues can't sneak attack large creatures in melee. That's right, your halfling rogue can't sneak attack an ogre in melee, no matter how hard you try. A halfling will easily hit the vitals of a Large (long) creature.
HairyApe 05-14-07, 10:23 AM	Say what? Small rogues can't sneak attack large creatures in melee. That's right, your halfling rogue can't sneak attack an ogre in melee, no matter how hard you try. Why can't small rogues sneak attack large creatures?? Does this also mean a medium rogue can't sneak attack a huge creature?
Master_of_the_Arcane 05-14-07, 10:34 AM	-4 due to speed - 1 due to strength = -5 to Jump? Where's the two other points? You get +4 to jump for each 10' above 30', but -6 per each 10' below 30'. So it'll actually come to -7 when you include the -1 for str also.
Psyber7 05-14-07, 12:31 PM	Small rogues can't sneak attack large creatures in melee. That's right, your halfling rogue can't sneak attack an ogre in melee, no matter how hard you try. It's my understanding that the Femoral Artery (the major artery that runs through the inner thigh) is rather vital to a living creature, no matter the size. Also, while a Halfling or Gnome may only be around 4 feet tall at the most, the Achilles Tendon is quite reachable on a Large creature. Personally, I'd say any size Large, long-face creature with a discernible anatomy is definitely able to be sneak attacked by a small rogue, as well as most Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids and Giants of size Large. Additionally, presuming you have the Tactical Feat Giantbane (from The Complete Warrior book) you can always "Climb Aboard" and reach a Giant's vitals But ultimately it's the DM's call. After all that's part of the job description, adjudicating rules calls. -=Psyber7=-
pupilofyah 05-14-07, 12:55 PM	Oops, my mistake, I read his post wrong, no, there's no feat like that, but there IS a magic item, called the Monk's Belt in the DMG, I thought he meant adding his other levels to his monk levels. YES there is a feat. superior unarmed strike in the book of nine swords. if not a monk you get a progressive increase that is not a good as a monksif you are a monk it bumbs it up by 4 lvls. the monks betl bumbs armor and dam. by 5 lvls and gives you an extra stun (if you have the feat) oh and improved natural attack can be taken mulitples times but not for the same kind of attack. (ie bite then tail but you cant make your bite go up twice so for monks you get to use it once.) as for rules as writen monk unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapon and natural weapons for spells and effects. feats fall under effects. further more, if a strike with part of your body is not natural then what the .... is it? personally hate this debated and that i believe those who say not they can't it isnt a natural weapon are morons. RAW says 'counts as natural weapon'.
Shado 05-14-07, 12:58 PM	The best small monk is a Shadow Sun Ninja (from ToB.) Strongheart Halfling - Unarmed Variant Swordsage 1/Halfling Monk 2/Swordsage +2/Shadow Sun Ninja 10 Take the Shadow Blade feat, Weapon Finesse, Improved Natural Attack, Adaptive Style, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Skirmish, Snap Kick and choose Shadow Hand as your discipline focus. Superior Unarmed Strike is worthless at the high levels... unarmed damage doesn't scale past 20. From there you can gain a lot with Tiger Claw, Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers. Sprinkle lightly with Diamond Mind and Desert Wind (for boosts). Martial maneuvers are mostly linked to standard actions, which prevent full attacks generally, you don't need flurry. Skirmish is a great way to augment damage here. Very good synergy. Improved Trip is a must have with Setting Sun... which often enough allows you to use DEX in place of STR for throw(trip) maneuvers. You have DEX to damage and hit. SSN improves nearly every monk ability while still continuing to advance martial maneuvers. Your base die will always be behind that of a larger Monk, but you overcome most of the damage discrepancy with this sort of build.
pupilofyah 05-14-07, 01:16 PM	Superior Unarmed Strike is worthless at the high levels... unarmed damage doesn't scale past 20. this is a problem that i have noticed as well. by the same token a monks belts loses a lot after you reach higher lvls since +1 to armor doesnt make much difference at that point in regards to being hit and this leave the extra on stun. 13000 for one stun. i have been ignored so far by wizards. i have been asking how it works in the case of the feat (i can understand the belts power falling of since it is just a magic item but a feat with prereqs. should not b/c useless. I think you should go up one more die step if you are a monk with this feat.
JLaurHughes 05-14-07, 01:30 PM	Whisper Gnomes (from Races of Stone) move at 30 feet and get a host of other cool abilities. Take Improved Natural Attack to up your damage and you're good to go. For added fun, take the feat Ascetic Rogue from... Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer (can't remember which) which allows a Monk to multiclass as a Rogue with no penalty, and allows your Rogue and Monk levels to stack for determining things like unarmed damage. Also increases your Stunning Fist DC when you use it with a Sneak Attack. Then, grab the Silencing Strike feat from Races of Stone, so you can use a Sneak Attack to Stun and Silence someone simultaneously. That'll put some serious hurt on a caster. Ascetic Rogue is in Complete Adventurer, and has the same effect(and stacks with) Superior Unarmed Strike(in ToB as well as PHB II). Take at least one level of rogue for the sneak attack and you're set. Take feats that build on this combination. There are feats at 20th level and beyond that you can get(that is if you get that high in level). Those are in the Epic SRD Feats listed under the monk progression which improve your unarmmed strike in different ways. Most games though don't last beyond 16th level.
Holy_Beholder 05-14-07, 05:03 PM	I guess your right. Acctually, now that I looked in my MM (still only 3.0e) both goblin and kobolt have a speed of 30ft. But what about the unarmed bonus? I'm thinking I could just make a new race, but wouldn't that destroy the point of being small? Well, he's my attempt at it... Full-Foot Halfling -No Stat adjustment: Full-Foots are stronger than normal halflings, but not as nimble. -Small: As Small creatures, Halflings gain a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but they must use smaller weapons than humans use, and their lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of Medium-size. -Full-foot base speed is 30ft - Powerful build: Full-Foot’s large hands and feet give the halfling much more significance when dealing in matters dealing with size. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the full-foot is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A full-foot can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty, and his unarmed damage is that of Medium size. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. Unlike creatures normally with Powerful build, a full-foot is not to be considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. - +2 to Jump, Swim and Tumble. These bonuses are due to the size of thier hands and feet, creating greater padding and surface area. - +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. All halflings are surprisingly capable of avoid mishaps. - +2 morale bonus to Will saves. (Stacks with the above bonus). - +1 racial attack bonus with a thrown weapon: Throwing stones is a universal sport among halflings, and most have developed great aim. - +2 to Listen skill checks - Favored Class: Monk +1 Level Adjustment Minor issue
fiendish_platypus 05-14-07, 05:08 PM	Well, sooooorrrryyyy! Small penalties: 2/3 movement 3/4 carrying capacity must use small weapons +1 to hit +1 to AC +4 to hide Size differences have benefits and penalties. They generally balance out. Sorry if this wasn't clear, but I was talking about the penalty to unarmed attacks.
calronmoonflower 05-14-07, 05:58 PM	Small rogues can't sneak attack large creatures in melee. That's right, your halfling rogue can't sneak attack an ogre in melee, no matter how hard you try. Try a reach weapon. You should be able to attack the higher up body parts of a large creature in that way.
penchant 05-15-07, 05:47 AM	Sorry if this wasn't clear, but I was talking about the penalty to unarmed attacks. If you are focusing on a small creature, then overall damage shouldn't be your focus, thematically speaking. Such types usually focus on status attacks. Harry your opponent, then bring him down. Freezing the lifeblood, pain touch, stunning fist, scorpion strike, pharoh's fist... these are your bread and butter. If your target can't get an action in, it won't matter if your base damage is lower. If you really want more damage then go monk/rogue and take the Aesthetic Rogue feat. Or Monk/ninja with Aesthetic Stalker. Bonus d6's are much better than a simple size category.
Argo 05-15-07, 02:25 PM	If you really want more damage then go monk/rogue and take the Aesthetic Rogue feat. Or Monk/ninja with Aesthetic Stalker. Bonus d6's are much better than a simple size category. The feats are called Ascetic Rogue and Ascetic Stalker. Ascetic: adjective Etymology: Greek askEtikos 1 : practicing strict self-denial as a measure of personal and spiritual discipline. Aesthetic: adjective Etymology: German ästhetisch 1 : of, relating to, or dealing with the beautiful. Artistic. Pleasing in appearance. Attractive.
penchant 05-15-07, 04:14 PM	The feats are called Ascetic Rogue and Ascetic Stalker. Ascetic: adjective Etymology: Greek askEtikos 1 : practicing strict self-denial as a measure of personal and spiritual discipline. Aesthetic: adjective Etymology: German ästhetisch 1 : of, relating to, or dealing with the beautiful. Artistic. Pleasing in appearance. Attractive. So while technically incorrect as far as WotC is concerned they are equally applicable as far as a monk in concerned. Do you think of such things, or are you too Lawful? Perhaps you should practice the second instead of the first?