Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Misterfido 06-21-07, 10:13 AM	I was wondering if anyone had any tips for the following racial traits for elves and drow. They are meant for the Eberron Campaign Setting (which effects the drow especially: not a subrace or even ancestor of elves but a different, if similar, race entirely). The only house rules that impacted my design were that races only start with their starting racial language, and must purchase others as though purchasing class skills. And the second rule was that Craft has been reduced to Craft (alchemy, mechanical, metalworking, structural, visual arts, writing), which I think High Elves are all exceptionally good at, so they get a general +2 bonus across the board. What I want input on are: A) Do they look balanced? B) Did I manage to get drow within the +0 LA bracket, or are they still like +1? C) Did I manage to maintain the feel of the races (elves focused on being Tolkeinesque, and drow focused on their originally drowhood) and finally D) Have I removed any abilities quintessential to the races' particular niches? Anyway, here are my modifications: High Elves Replacing all elf traits: -2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma Trance: Elves can gain the effects of 8 hours of sleep from 4 hours of a deep, meditative trance. Immunity to sleep spells and effects. Low-light vision. Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword (or scimitar for Valenar elves), rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow. +2 racial bonus on Craft, Listen, and Survival checks. Accumulated Knowledge: As bardic knowledge, but with 1/2 HD instead of bard level. For every age category above adulthood, the elf gets a +2 bonus on this check. This stacks with any bard levels (so a 2th-level elf bard would have a modifier of 3 + Int modifier) Elves can cross trackless terrain as if on a trail, and trailed terrain as of on a highway (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook). Automatic Languages: Elven. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan. Favored Class: Ranger. Drow Replacing all drow traits (including being a subrace): +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma Darkvision out to 120 feet. Spell resistance equal to 5 + class levels. +2 on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot checks Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the Xen'drik boomerang, the rapier, and the kukri. Automatic Languages: Drow Sign Language, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Kuo-toan. Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. Favored class: Wizard. Level Adjustment: +0
Kurama Youko 06-21-07, 10:51 AM	How come you added some many negatives to the drow and none to the high elves? Even looking at the abilities its seem unbalanaced.
Treymordin 06-21-07, 06:27 PM	A race with SR at first level should have a +1 LA at least, especially if it is going to increase.
Polaris 06-21-07, 09:45 PM	A race with SR at first level should have a +1 LA at least, especially if it is going to increase. Agreed. Even crappy SR that scales is worth at least an LA+1 by itself. Also any race with unbalanced attributes (like your high elf) needs to have at least an LA+1 (even Hobgoblins do for this reason and they otherwise kind of suck). -Polaris
Misterfido 06-21-07, 09:49 PM	How come you added some many negatives to the drow and none to the high elves? Even looking at the abilities its seem unbalanaced. Because the Dex balances the Con, and the Int balances the Cha. In my view, drow are lithe but frail, and intelligent enough to outdo their surroundings but totally brash and unfriendly and unindependant thinkers--owing to their general motto of family above all else, plus their constant worship of their god. A race with SR at first level should have a +1 LA at least, especially if it is going to increase. I dunno though... in a battle where their CR equals the party level, the caster has a 25%/30% (NPC level drow/PC level drow) chance of failing their casting. That's really not a whole lot--especially since drow are more often fought in groups, decreasing their individual HD and thus the spell resistance effectiveness until basically their SR is a moot point unless the caster rolls a 1. Add that to the fact all their other abilities are ALSO moot points (darkvision? in an all-darkvision-party, it's moot, in a party with a light source, it's moot; Weapon Proficiency? Search bonus? An extra starting language effective only with drow? Pff). In fact, the drow "balancing traits" could really be summarized as: SR Skill bonuses Light blindness Light blindness is such a powerful weakness... I think they've earned some SR. Though I do appreciate the input and will think about that.
Polaris 06-21-07, 09:58 PM	Because the Dex balances the Con, and the Int balances the Cha. Except it doesn't. The guidelines listed in the DMG are trash and have been outdated literally for years. Dex and Con do perhaps balance each other out, but there is no way in Hades that Int and Cha do (either way). It's too good (either way) for casters of the appropriate mental stat since a stat penalty in either stat (but Cha especially) is nearly meaningless. You might have a case (I disagree but many wouldn't) if you claimed that +2 Int was balanced out by -2 Con, but then you'd have to claim that +2 Dex was balanced by -2 Charisma,and I suspect you'd be laughed off the boards if you claimed that. In my view, drow are lithe but frail, and intelligent enough to outdo their surroundings but totally brash and unfriendly and unindependant thinkers--owing to their general motto of family above all else, plus their constant worship of their god. Fine. Give them an LA then if you want to keep them as is. Tough races (i.e. tougher than the PHB standard) get LAs to pay for their abilities. I dunno though... in a battle where their CR equals the party level, the caster has a 25%/30% (NPC level drow/PC level drow) chance of failing their casting. That's really not a whole lot--especially since drow are more often fought in groups, decreasing their individual HD and thus the spell resistance effectiveness until basically their SR is a moot point unless the caster rolls a 1. Add that to the fact all their other abilities are ALSO moot points (darkvision? in an all-darkvision-party, it's moot, in a party with a light source, it's moot; Weapon Proficiency? Search bonus? An extra starting language effective only with drow? Pff). In fact, the drow "balancing traits" could really be summarized as: SR allows a second save against most spells, and a save against spells that normally don't allow any. It's an LA worthy ability. Always has been. Light blindness is such a powerful weakness... I think they've earned some SR. Lightblindness is worth exactly one negative feat (and it's not that hard to sidestep), eg Daylight Adaption. It's certainly not worth SR. -Polaris
Misterfido 06-21-07, 09:59 PM	Also any race with unbalanced attributes (like your high elf) needs to have at least an LA+1 (even Hobgoblins do for this reason and they otherwise kind of suck). -Polaris How are my high elves unbalancing, exactly? I've taken away their bonus to ranged attacks, armor, oft-used dex-based combat skills... in return I've given them Craft, a weak form of bardic knowledge. I've taken away 1 point from Spot, 2 from Search, and given them 2 to Survival (a much less important ability, really). And Charisma bonus? The ability to cross rough terrain easily in non-combat situations? I don't see these as very significant factors, either... I could be wrong though, that's how I see things, but how do you see them?
Polaris 06-21-07, 10:06 PM	How are my high elves unbalancing, exactly? I've taken away their bonus to ranged attacks, armor, oft-used dex-based combat skills... in return I've given them Craft, a weak form of bardic knowledge. I've taken away 1 point from Spot, 2 from Search, and given them 2 to Survival (a much less important ability, really). And Charisma bonus? The ability to cross rough terrain easily in non-combat situations? I don't see these as very significant factors, either... I could be wrong though, that's how I see things, but how do you see them? The problem with +2 Charisma is that you then make this race the go-to race for any charisma caster out there (esp Sorcerers and Wilders). Worse, you give a net bonus to starting stats which means that you are giving what amounts to free character points for attribute determation at the start of the game over everyone else. Anytime your net attribute gain for a race is greater than zero, you need an LA to balance it out. -Polaris
Misterfido 06-21-07, 10:14 PM	The problem with +2 Charisma is that you then make this race the go-to race for any charisma caster out there (esp Sorcerers and Wilders). Worse, you give a net bonus to starting stats which means that you are giving what amounts to free character points for attribute determation at the start of the game over everyone else. Anytime your net attribute gain for a race is greater than zero, you need an LA to balance it out. -Polaris Charisma-based casters don't have the skill points for Wisdom-based skills, nor do they have the class skills. I run a pretty tight class-restriction system at my games (which everyone seems to like). Wisdom-based casters (that is, Druid and Cleric) get some Charisma skills and extra skill points to spend, but then we have to go to the situation of most Charisma-based skills being based off DCs, rendering the +1 bonus they get useless. I see the extra bonus, and I see how either class can benefit from it slightly, but I do not see great opportunity for abuse there... Beyond all that... aren't half-orcs the go-to race for melee combatants? Aren't elves the go-to race for ranged combatants? Aren't humans the go-to race for rogues? Aren't gnomes the go-to race for illusionists? I think I can handle elves changing what class they're go-to for... And as for "a bonus over everyone else," that's what I'm balancing the race for. Which is to say: Suppose I really, really wanted to keep those bonuses. Any other areas you'd suggest I trim or penalize?
Polaris 06-22-07, 12:14 AM	Mr. Fido, I don't know what to tell you except what's been discussed here and elsewhere since Savage Species or even before. Any race with LA+0 and a mental attribute bonus is already playing with fire. There is strong disagreement if that can be balanced at LA+0. I don't think it can; others disagree. However, what we all agree on is that for casters gaining a +2 to your spellcasting stat early provides early, immediate, and strong benefits that get better and better as your adventuring career progresses. The dispute is what is an appropriate price/penalty. Definately allowing TWO mental attributes bonuses balanced out by only one attribute penalty is a show-stopper right there...and that's going by even old Savage Species standards which didn't account for the power of casting stats as much as they ought. I guess you don't want to listen to what I have to say. Fine. No one is forcing you; but if it were me and I got a race that gave me +2 to my casting stat with no (net) penalty elsewhere, I'd take that in a heartbeat even if it had no other racial abilities. I think most people that play casters would. That's the problem. In addition to that, just having a net positive modifier means this race at LA+0 starts with more character points (effectively) which means a better overall character even for a melee type than anyone else and that's not fair. You effectively get more built points because you don't have to spend anything on two stats to avoid penalties (unlike most other races)...and can pump the savings into the stat of your choice. That's not right and has no business being LA+0. -Polaris P.S. To answer your last question, you need to start by making your high elf attributes add up to zero (net). That's just a start mind.
Captain_Kobold 06-24-07, 03:07 PM	Both seem to be balanced reasonably on the low end for LA +1 races. Incidently Misterfido, what it the creation story of the Drow in your setting? I was under the impression that in Eberron, Drow were created from Elves by the Giants, who infused them with the essence of darkness/shadow. Elves: Where do elves get their 'Accumulated Knowledge' ability from? Do they spend s significant amount of time studying matters related to the other races, different lands, and recent history? Or have they gained it from decades of experience wandering around the world looking for secrets and knowledge and interacting with the other races? Neither seems to fit in with the Tolkienesque view of elves. (Then again, none of the elven nations in Eberron are Tolkienesque.) Enough people have pointed out that unbalanced stats are a very bad idea that I don't really need to. Other racial abilities can't really make up for racial bonus/penalty imbalance. Drow: I don't see the current tribal organisation of the Drow in Eberron as emphasising education and the scholarly pursuits. Not sure whether an intelligence bonus is fitting if you are giving them a penalty to Charisma and redoing them to fit. Even though all the numbers add up to 0, the ability bonuses are more useful than the penalties. Spell resistance is a powerful option and the cost does not take into account reducing the level of it. Either leave it in and accept the LA boost, or remove it completely. Light blindness could be a nasty, but in many situations where Drow are operating it is rarely a problem. Their 120ft Darkvision is extremely useful.
ElberethSilverleaf 06-24-07, 03:23 PM	Why have the stat changes changed to +2 or -2? Why cant you have a -2 in constitution with +1 in wisdom and +1 in charisma? Or better yet, -2 in CO with a +1 in IN and +1 in DX to better reflect Gold elves?