Swarmshifter (Template) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Swarmshifter (Template) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkPawn
07-11-07, 03:10 PM Character wants to make a 5th Level Psion/Necropolitan (swarmshifter). Both from Libris Mortis.

The starting level for the character is 6th level. The question comes up about swarmshifter. It is a pretty powerful template that can be added unlimited times, and has no LA.

Thoughts, opinions...etc..? I guess what I'm looking for is this balanced, fair, etc...
Visigo7h
07-11-07, 03:36 PM This template really isn’t for players in my opinion, but as a dm what i would do is if they took it, they can only gain it 1 time per 5 levels or something like that. I would also encourage him to talk with the other players and try to keep his abilities balanced with what they can do.

Now if he wants to have fun with it and play a prankster, swarm of undead parts swarmform would be great.
DarkPawn
07-11-07, 03:46 PM This template really isn’t for players in my opinion, but as a dm what i would do is if they took it, they can only gain it 1 time per 5 levels or something like that. I would also encourage him to talk with the other players and try to keep his abilities balanced with what they can do.

Now if he wants to have fun with it and play a prankster, swarm of undead parts swarmform would be great.

As a Psion, would the character be able to manifest powers when in swarm shape? Immune to all physical attacks?

Also, under undead swarms it says they turn at half their level. Would this only be an issue when in swarm form?
SilentOne
07-11-07, 04:09 PM The fact that the swarmshifter template has LA - instead of LA +0 means that players are not allowed to take it, similar to how older dragons have LA -. They simply become too powerful for players to have at their disposal anywhere pre-epic.

Don't let your player trick you into believing they can have the template as LA +0, particularly multiple times.

I already said this in your other post, but given that they can't cast spells at all while in swarm shape, I'd be tempted to impose a similar restriction on manifesting (considering it looks like this player is trying to munchkin-cheat already), and say that, if for some reason you let him keep the obviously broken template, that he can't use any of his psionic abilities while in any swarm shape, as his mind is too splintered into the various component creatures/particles.

Seriously though, hit this player with a nerf bat. Then tone down his character.
DarkPawn
07-11-07, 04:32 PM The fact that the swarmshifter template has LA - instead of LA +0 means that players are not allowed to take it, similar to how older dragons have LA -. They simply become too powerful for players to have at their disposal anywhere pre-epic.

Don't let your player trick you into believing they can have the template as LA +0, particularly multiple times.

I already said this in your other post, but given that they can't cast spells at all while in swarm shape, I'd be tempted to impose a similar restriction on manifesting (considering it looks like this player is trying to munchkin-cheat already), and say that, if for some reason you let him keep the obviously broken template, that he can't use any of his psionic abilities while in any swarm shape, as his mind is too splintered into the various component creatures/particles.

Seriously though, hit this player with a nerf bat. Then tone down his character.

What kind of LA would you assign to it if you did allow it? Hypothetically?
snakeman830
07-11-07, 04:35 PM Possibly +5 IMO. I'm not a good judge of LA. (I do okay at CR's though;) )
Mai_ariti
07-12-07, 09:17 AM +5?? I was going to say +2.

Perhaps you could restrict the player to choosing one of the swarm-forms that has a subpar attack but can still be damaged. . .basically not the bat swarm and not the grave dust. Perhaps give him the flies one? Aside from the annoying buzzing and distraction, it's hard to see that overballancing the campaign with a LA of +2, maybe a +1 if you run a highpower campaign.

Try pointing out to the Psion the Metamorphasis power. Why not just get to that point and shapechange all day?
snakeman830
07-12-07, 09:26 AM +5?? I was going to say +2.

I said I wasn't a very good judge. :rolleyes:
DarkPawn
07-12-07, 11:25 AM +5?? I was going to say +2.

Perhaps you could restrict the player to choosing one of the swarm-forms that has a subpar attack but can still be damaged. . .basically not the bat swarm and not the grave dust. Perhaps give him the flies one? Aside from the annoying buzzing and distraction, it's hard to see that overbalancing the campaign with a LA of +2, maybe a +1 if you run a highpower campaign.

Try pointing out to the Psion the Metamorphasis power. Why not just get to that point and shapechange all day?

Would this lower it to +0 LA?

1) In swarm form can not do any physical damage

2) Because of hive mind can not use psionics in swarm form, mind is fragmented and can not focus to manifest powers, powers that require manifestation concentration (could be upheld)

3) Immunity to piercing damage in swarm form but takes normal damage from slashing and bludgeoning, as swinging through swarm disperses matter

4) Turned at half strength when in swarm form

5) In swarm form -2 to spot and listen, sensory deprivation

6) 1.5 damage from area of effect spells and attacks in swarm form
Kaladon7779
07-12-07, 12:03 PM Would this lower it to +0 LA?

1) In swarm form can not do any physical damage

2) Because of hive mind can not use psionics in swarm form, mind is fragmented and can not focus to manifest powers, powers that require manifestation concentration (could be upheld)

3) Immunity to piercing damage in swarm form but takes normal damage from slashing and bludgeoning, as swinging through swarm disperses matter

4) Turned at half strength when in swarm form

5) In swarm form -2 to spot and listen, sensory deprivation

6) 1.5 damage from area of effect spells and attacks in swarm form

Anybody with any other thoughts on this?
snakeman830
07-12-07, 02:48 PM Yeah, just follow the rules of the template and normal swarm rules. Makes it a heck of a lot easier to work with.

As for the LA, have your DM assign one. This keeps everyone happy.

NOTE: The "turned at half strength" applies to any undead with the swarm subtype, which swarmshifters gain when they shift to swarm form. Thus, it's not something new.
DarkPawn
07-12-07, 04:05 PM Yeah, just follow the rules of the template and normal swarm rules. Makes it a heck of a lot easier to work with.

As for the LA, have your DM assign one. This keeps everyone happy.

NOTE: The "turned at half strength" applies to any undead with the swarm subtype, which swarmshifters gain when they shift to swarm form. Thus, it's not something new.

The issue is the template is too powerful as is. So it isn't going to be allowed. So as a compromise I am trying to tone it down...if toned down as above (yes, I realize some things are normal penalties anyway) my question is would this be more closer to +0 LA. To make it so the character can play his character concept, but not be overpowered.
Mai_ariti
07-13-07, 10:15 AM 1) In swarm form can not do any physical damage

2) Because of hive mind can not use psionics in swarm form, mind is fragmented and can not focus to manifest powers, powers that require manifestation concentration (could be upheld)

3) Immunity to piercing damage in swarm form but takes normal damage from slashing and bludgeoning, as swinging through swarm disperses matter

4) Turned at half strength when in swarm form

5) In swarm form -2 to spot and listen, sensory deprivation

6) 1.5 damage from area of effect spells and attacks in swarm form[/QUOTE]

This may well reduce the LA to a +0, I would probably allow this version in my campaign, but consider a few things:

1) which swarm forms will you allow? You player is going to ask why his swarm of undead rats cannot attack, you might want to restrict him to the forms that already have no or bad attacks.

2) How are you dealing with the destraction special ability?

3) Turrning at half-strength may be a problem for a PC it will annoy him if he keeps being controled by evil casters or almost destroyed by good ones. This will cripple his ability to scout, in some places, which may hamper his plans.
snakeman830
07-13-07, 10:45 AM This may well reduce the LA to a +0, I would probably allow this version in my campaign, but consider a few things:

1) which swarm forms will you allow? You player is going to ask why his swarm of undead rats cannot attack, you might want to restrict him to the forms that already have no or bad attacks.

2) How are you dealing with the destraction special ability?

3) Turrning at half-strength may be a problem for a PC it will annoy him if he keeps being controled by evil casters or almost destroyed by good ones. This will cripple his ability to scout, in some places, which may hamper his plans.

Remember, swarm form damage is depndent on your HD. Also, removing the swarm damage is going to create serious continuity questions. (Hi, I can turn into a few thousand scorpions that can't pinch or sting!)
DarkPawn
07-13-07, 12:01 PM Remember, swarm form damage is depndent on your HD. Also, removing the swarm damage is going to create serious continuity questions. (Hi, I can turn into a few thousand scorpions that can't pinch or sting!)

Then any damaging swarms will be removed completely. Leaving flies and maggots and other such things.
snakeman830
07-13-07, 12:24 PM Then any damaging swarms will be removed completely. Leaving flies and maggots and other such things.

I think they can still do damage. Ever heard of horseflies? Their bites are painful.

A maggot swarm will eat your flesh.
DarkPawn
07-13-07, 04:19 PM I think they can still do damage. Ever heard of horseflies? Their bites are painful.

A maggot swarm will eat your flesh.

I've been bitten by horseflies and it isn't substantial damage. Especially if wearing clothing and armor. I can agree it would be annoying as hell but kill me? No...I don't think so.

As for maggots, yeah if you stood still and let them just live on your for awhile. But in the middle of combat if they are crawling around? Moving alone would knock the majority off you.

I don't see them doing any substantial damage and merely being an annoyance. Unless of course they were rot grubs, and not maggots! ;)
snakeman830
07-13-07, 04:49 PM I've been bitten by horseflies and it isn't substantial damage. Especially if wearing clothing and armor. I can agree it would be annoying as hell but kill me? No...I don't think so.

Perhaps, but thousands of them? The blood loss alone would weaken you. I think flies are a very real threat.

And, this is D&D, not real life. A swarm of anything cn kill you. A swarm of toads can kill you, and a lone toad doesn't even have an attack!.
DarkPawn
07-13-07, 05:21 PM Perhaps, but thousands of them? The blood loss alone would weaken you. I think flies are a very real threat.

And, this is D&D, not real life. A swarm of anything cn kill you. A swarm of toads can kill you, and a lone toad doesn't even have an attack!.

I agree that it could but I don't think it is too far of a stretch to say it doesn't either. All for the sake of balancing a template out, so a character can play it.

It is still pretty handy with +8 AC, when in swarm form and all the other utility uses. Just tried to tone it down so the player can play it. As it was, it was never going to happen for a +0 LA. Which is what the player wanted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkPawn 07-11-07, 03:10 PM	Character wants to make a 5th Level Psion/Necropolitan (swarmshifter). Both from Libris Mortis. The starting level for the character is 6th level. The question comes up about swarmshifter. It is a pretty powerful template that can be added unlimited times, and has no LA. Thoughts, opinions...etc..? I guess what I'm looking for is this balanced, fair, etc...
Visigo7h 07-11-07, 03:36 PM	This template really isn’t for players in my opinion, but as a dm what i would do is if they took it, they can only gain it 1 time per 5 levels or something like that. I would also encourage him to talk with the other players and try to keep his abilities balanced with what they can do. Now if he wants to have fun with it and play a prankster, swarm of undead parts swarmform would be great.
DarkPawn 07-11-07, 03:46 PM	This template really isn’t for players in my opinion, but as a dm what i would do is if they took it, they can only gain it 1 time per 5 levels or something like that. I would also encourage him to talk with the other players and try to keep his abilities balanced with what they can do. Now if he wants to have fun with it and play a prankster, swarm of undead parts swarmform would be great. As a Psion, would the character be able to manifest powers when in swarm shape? Immune to all physical attacks? Also, under undead swarms it says they turn at half their level. Would this only be an issue when in swarm form?
SilentOne 07-11-07, 04:09 PM	The fact that the swarmshifter template has LA - instead of LA +0 means that players are not allowed to take it, similar to how older dragons have LA -. They simply become too powerful for players to have at their disposal anywhere pre-epic. Don't let your player trick you into believing they can have the template as LA +0, particularly multiple times. I already said this in your other post, but given that they can't cast spells at all while in swarm shape, I'd be tempted to impose a similar restriction on manifesting (considering it looks like this player is trying to munchkin-cheat already), and say that, if for some reason you let him keep the obviously broken template, that he can't use any of his psionic abilities while in any swarm shape, as his mind is too splintered into the various component creatures/particles. Seriously though, hit this player with a nerf bat. Then tone down his character.
DarkPawn 07-11-07, 04:32 PM	The fact that the swarmshifter template has LA - instead of LA +0 means that players are not allowed to take it, similar to how older dragons have LA -. They simply become too powerful for players to have at their disposal anywhere pre-epic. Don't let your player trick you into believing they can have the template as LA +0, particularly multiple times. I already said this in your other post, but given that they can't cast spells at all while in swarm shape, I'd be tempted to impose a similar restriction on manifesting (considering it looks like this player is trying to munchkin-cheat already), and say that, if for some reason you let him keep the obviously broken template, that he can't use any of his psionic abilities while in any swarm shape, as his mind is too splintered into the various component creatures/particles. Seriously though, hit this player with a nerf bat. Then tone down his character. What kind of LA would you assign to it if you did allow it? Hypothetically?
snakeman830 07-11-07, 04:35 PM	Possibly +5 IMO. I'm not a good judge of LA. (I do okay at CR's though;) )
Mai_ariti 07-12-07, 09:17 AM	+5?? I was going to say +2. Perhaps you could restrict the player to choosing one of the swarm-forms that has a subpar attack but can still be damaged. . .basically not the bat swarm and not the grave dust. Perhaps give him the flies one? Aside from the annoying buzzing and distraction, it's hard to see that overballancing the campaign with a LA of +2, maybe a +1 if you run a highpower campaign. Try pointing out to the Psion the Metamorphasis power. Why not just get to that point and shapechange all day?
snakeman830 07-12-07, 09:26 AM	+5?? I was going to say +2. I said I wasn't a very good judge. :rolleyes:
DarkPawn 07-12-07, 11:25 AM	+5?? I was going to say +2. Perhaps you could restrict the player to choosing one of the swarm-forms that has a subpar attack but can still be damaged. . .basically not the bat swarm and not the grave dust. Perhaps give him the flies one? Aside from the annoying buzzing and distraction, it's hard to see that overbalancing the campaign with a LA of +2, maybe a +1 if you run a highpower campaign. Try pointing out to the Psion the Metamorphasis power. Why not just get to that point and shapechange all day? Would this lower it to +0 LA? 1) In swarm form can not do any physical damage 2) Because of hive mind can not use psionics in swarm form, mind is fragmented and can not focus to manifest powers, powers that require manifestation concentration (could be upheld) 3) Immunity to piercing damage in swarm form but takes normal damage from slashing and bludgeoning, as swinging through swarm disperses matter 4) Turned at half strength when in swarm form 5) In swarm form -2 to spot and listen, sensory deprivation 6) 1.5 damage from area of effect spells and attacks in swarm form
Kaladon7779 07-12-07, 12:03 PM	Would this lower it to +0 LA? 1) In swarm form can not do any physical damage 2) Because of hive mind can not use psionics in swarm form, mind is fragmented and can not focus to manifest powers, powers that require manifestation concentration (could be upheld) 3) Immunity to piercing damage in swarm form but takes normal damage from slashing and bludgeoning, as swinging through swarm disperses matter 4) Turned at half strength when in swarm form 5) In swarm form -2 to spot and listen, sensory deprivation 6) 1.5 damage from area of effect spells and attacks in swarm form Anybody with any other thoughts on this?
snakeman830 07-12-07, 02:48 PM	Yeah, just follow the rules of the template and normal swarm rules. Makes it a heck of a lot easier to work with. As for the LA, have your DM assign one. This keeps everyone happy. NOTE: The "turned at half strength" applies to any undead with the swarm subtype, which swarmshifters gain when they shift to swarm form. Thus, it's not something new.
DarkPawn 07-12-07, 04:05 PM	Yeah, just follow the rules of the template and normal swarm rules. Makes it a heck of a lot easier to work with. As for the LA, have your DM assign one. This keeps everyone happy. NOTE: The "turned at half strength" applies to any undead with the swarm subtype, which swarmshifters gain when they shift to swarm form. Thus, it's not something new. The issue is the template is too powerful as is. So it isn't going to be allowed. So as a compromise I am trying to tone it down...if toned down as above (yes, I realize some things are normal penalties anyway) my question is would this be more closer to +0 LA. To make it so the character can play his character concept, but not be overpowered.
Mai_ariti 07-13-07, 10:15 AM	1) In swarm form can not do any physical damage 2) Because of hive mind can not use psionics in swarm form, mind is fragmented and can not focus to manifest powers, powers that require manifestation concentration (could be upheld) 3) Immunity to piercing damage in swarm form but takes normal damage from slashing and bludgeoning, as swinging through swarm disperses matter 4) Turned at half strength when in swarm form 5) In swarm form -2 to spot and listen, sensory deprivation 6) 1.5 damage from area of effect spells and attacks in swarm form[/QUOTE] This may well reduce the LA to a +0, I would probably allow this version in my campaign, but consider a few things: 1) which swarm forms will you allow? You player is going to ask why his swarm of undead rats cannot attack, you might want to restrict him to the forms that already have no or bad attacks. 2) How are you dealing with the destraction special ability? 3) Turrning at half-strength may be a problem for a PC it will annoy him if he keeps being controled by evil casters or almost destroyed by good ones. This will cripple his ability to scout, in some places, which may hamper his plans.
snakeman830 07-13-07, 10:45 AM	This may well reduce the LA to a +0, I would probably allow this version in my campaign, but consider a few things: 1) which swarm forms will you allow? You player is going to ask why his swarm of undead rats cannot attack, you might want to restrict him to the forms that already have no or bad attacks. 2) How are you dealing with the destraction special ability? 3) Turrning at half-strength may be a problem for a PC it will annoy him if he keeps being controled by evil casters or almost destroyed by good ones. This will cripple his ability to scout, in some places, which may hamper his plans. Remember, swarm form damage is depndent on your HD. Also, removing the swarm damage is going to create serious continuity questions. (Hi, I can turn into a few thousand scorpions that can't pinch or sting!)
DarkPawn 07-13-07, 12:01 PM	Remember, swarm form damage is depndent on your HD. Also, removing the swarm damage is going to create serious continuity questions. (Hi, I can turn into a few thousand scorpions that can't pinch or sting!) Then any damaging swarms will be removed completely. Leaving flies and maggots and other such things.
snakeman830 07-13-07, 12:24 PM	Then any damaging swarms will be removed completely. Leaving flies and maggots and other such things. I think they can still do damage. Ever heard of horseflies? Their bites are painful. A maggot swarm will eat your flesh.
DarkPawn 07-13-07, 04:19 PM	I think they can still do damage. Ever heard of horseflies? Their bites are painful. A maggot swarm will eat your flesh. I've been bitten by horseflies and it isn't substantial damage. Especially if wearing clothing and armor. I can agree it would be annoying as hell but kill me? No...I don't think so. As for maggots, yeah if you stood still and let them just live on your for awhile. But in the middle of combat if they are crawling around? Moving alone would knock the majority off you. I don't see them doing any substantial damage and merely being an annoyance. Unless of course they were rot grubs, and not maggots! ;)
snakeman830 07-13-07, 04:49 PM	I've been bitten by horseflies and it isn't substantial damage. Especially if wearing clothing and armor. I can agree it would be annoying as hell but kill me? No...I don't think so. Perhaps, but thousands of them? The blood loss alone would weaken you. I think flies are a very real threat. And, this is D&D, not real life. A swarm of anything cn kill you. A swarm of toads can kill you, and a lone toad doesn't even have an attack!.
DarkPawn 07-13-07, 05:21 PM	Perhaps, but thousands of them? The blood loss alone would weaken you. I think flies are a very real threat. And, this is D&D, not real life. A swarm of anything cn kill you. A swarm of toads can kill you, and a lone toad doesn't even have an attack!. I agree that it could but I don't think it is too far of a stretch to say it doesn't either. All for the sake of balancing a template out, so a character can play it. It is still pretty handy with +8 AC, when in swarm form and all the other utility uses. Just tried to tone it down so the player can play it. As it was, it was never going to happen for a +0 LA. Which is what the player wanted.