Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-18-07, 07:05 PM	I've created an elven subrace for my campaign world to replace Wood and Wild elves. Here it is. Ideas would be appreciated. The Sylvan Elf Medium Humanoid (elf) Speed: 30 ft, Climb 20 ft. +4 Dex, -2 Cha, -2 Con. Sylvan Elves are agile, but are reserved and frail. Low-Light Vision. +8 racial bonus on climb checks, can always take 10 on climb checks. +2 racial bonus on Survival, Spot, Search, and Listen checks. Automatic Languages: Elven, and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Auran, Draconic, Common, Giant, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc. Automatic Proficiency with the scimitar and longbow. Immunity to Magic sleep effects, +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects. Favored class: Scout. LA 1? Multiclass scout/rangers are rather common among Sylvan Elves.
pinkbunny 07-18-07, 07:21 PM	this is borderline on LA 1, you've traded a con penalty for a cha penalty from the wild elf, and given several other boosts playing a wild elf with the brachiation feat would get you most of this within the bounds of the RAW
Erato 07-18-07, 07:55 PM	I agree. The wood elf is already considered powerful (though, to be fair, it's mostly because it overshadows the half-orc ;) ), and this is even more so. Every bonus this race has helps it excel more in it's speciality, while all the penalties are unimportant. It's like a dwarf, only worse. You need to either remove one of the stat bonuses together with a penalty, or give it a penalty to an ability score that a Scout would actually miss.
key 07-19-07, 01:15 AM	I would leave their INT alone, and give a -2 to their CON. They are still elves after all. Regarding languages I would eliminate common and replace it with languages woodland creatures speak, e.g. centaur, pixie, dryad, and treant. (They wouldn't want to learn common as that might encourage visitors to their realm.)
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-19-07, 01:17 AM	I reviewed my concept a bit, and decided the Sylvan Elf should be more cunning, and a bit less agile.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-19-07, 01:22 AM	Actually, I designed them with melee in mind, so that's why they don't have a penalty to con.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-19-07, 01:24 AM	They already have Sylvan as an automatic language, and like all races, they do need trade.
key 07-19-07, 01:32 AM	They don't need to know common to trade. They can just do business with those who speak elven. Sort of like those businesses that advertise "se habla espaņol". Besides, this goes with their -2 to CHA.
KurenaiYami 07-19-07, 01:44 AM	+2 Int, +2 Str, -2 Cha, -2 Dex. Sylvan Elves are fast, strong, and tougher than their cousins, but are reserved and not too bright. I'm gonna assume you changed this around and forgot the flavor text. Saying they're fast and giving them a Dex penalty, then saying they are not too bright and giving them an Int bonus strikes me as odd.
Shadowfax7 07-19-07, 09:03 AM	I'm gonna assume you changed this around and forgot the flavor text. Saying they're fast and giving them a Dex penalty, then saying they are not too bright and giving them an Int bonus strikes me as odd.I am assuming the same. Also, giving them a Climb speed (with the customary +8 to Climb checks and taking 10 anytime) warrants a LA +1.
RobbyPants 07-19-07, 09:11 AM	I'm gonna assume you changed this around and forgot the flavor text. Saying they're fast and giving them a Dex penalty, then saying they are not too bright and giving them an Int bonus strikes me as odd. I was a bit confused too. :thinks: I agree that it seems a bit strong. Also, if they have a climb speed, is there a need for the +8 bonus?
Mai_ariti 07-19-07, 09:29 AM	Also, if they have a climb speed, is there a need for the +8 bonus? That's just how it works, a climb or swim speed means that you have a +8 on the related check and can take 10 at any time.
RobbyPants 07-19-07, 09:42 AM	That's just how it works, a climb or swim speed means that you have a +8 on the related check and can take 10 at any time. Okay. Thanks. :)
Erato 07-19-07, 09:50 AM	I must admit that I fail to see the reason for butch and clumsy elves. There isn't much elven left in them. Also, if you design with melee in mind, instead of designing with forest elves in mind, you might as well just make up a brand new melee race.
key 07-19-07, 11:15 AM	I must admit that I fail to see the reason for butch and clumsy elves. There isn't much elven left in them. Also, if you design with melee in mind, instead of designing with forest elves in mind, you might as well just make up a brand new melee race. I agree. For all elves, I think the starting point is +2 to DEX and -2 to CON. Removing the CON penalty is a bit of a stretch. Removing the DEX bonus and replacing it with a DEX penalty is really over the top. Like you said, it might as well not be an elf.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-19-07, 09:22 PM	I'm gonna assume you changed this around and forgot the flavor text. Saying they're fast and giving them a Dex penalty, then saying they are not too bright and giving them an Int bonus strikes me as odd.Oops:banghead:, I should fix that. I'll also replace the Dex penalty with a Con penalty, and maybe change the Cha penalty to -4 to compensate for the climb speed.
Lawlicron 07-19-07, 09:58 PM	I've created an elven subrace for my campaign world to replace Wood and Wild elves. Here it is. Ideas would be appreciated. The Sylvan Elf Medium Humanoid (elf) Speed: 30 ft, Climb 20 ft. +2 Int, +2 Str, -4 Cha, -2 Dex. Sylvan Elves are cunning and strong, but are reserved and frail. Low-Light Vision, Scent. +8 racial bonus on climb checks, can always take 10 on climb checks. +2 racial bonus on Survival, Hide, and Move Silently checks. Automatic Languages: Elven, and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Auran, Draconic, Common, Giant, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc. Automatic Proficiency with the scimitar, kukuri, longbow, and shortbow. Immunity to Magic sleep effects, +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects. Favored class: Scout. Multiclass scout/rangers are rather common among Sylvan Elves. First off, please don't make any elven subraces. There are plenty, its just easier to change to flavor of an existing one. This is kind of funny really. They need an LA, bad. Not speaking common as a base language is not a draw-back. Edit: Oh yeah, and quit dump stating Cha. Everyone does this thinking it will "balance" it out. It doesn't balance anything. It just means a stat you weren't going to use is going to be lower.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-20-07, 01:54 AM	First off, please don't make any elven subraces. There are plenty, its just easier to change to flavor of an existing one. This is kind of funny really. They need an LA, bad. I'm using this to replace wood and wild elves, and I'm just getting rid of aquatic elves. I probably should, however throw in an LA.
Erato 07-20-07, 09:51 AM	Ok, let me compare this with the normal elf (disregarding the LA): Medium Humanoid (elf): This is fine Speed: 30 ft, Climb 20 ft.: This makes the Sylvan Elf a better climber, which makes sense for elves living in the woods. +2 Int: This makes them better wizards than high elves - despite not having wizard as favored class, and it makes them better at skills like descipher script, disable device, and knowledge skills. It doesn't fit the flavor of 'primitive' elves living in close contact to nature at all. +2 Str: This makes them better in melee, which isn't a catastrophe, even if melee is rarely used for hunting and stealthy combat. -2 Cha: This makes sense. It shows that they're reserved and they probably live in such close knit communities that they rarely have need to manipulate and throw their weight around socially. It does make them worse sorcerers and better wizards, but that's the price of low Cha (though the Int bonus doesn't make this any better). -2 Dex: This makes them clumsier than high elves, makes them worse at using the bow (the archtypical weapon of the hunter), makes them less stealthy, and less able to move around in uneven terrain. It basically makes them hulking brutes, instead of stealthy hunters. Low-Light Vision: Makes sense. Scent.: It isn't implausible, but together with the climb speed, it makes them close to overpowered. +8 racial bonus on climb checks, can always take 10 on climb checks.: Like scent - not implausible, but could be dumbed to reduce LA. +2 racial bonus on Survival, Hide, and Move Silently checks.: This makes up for their low Dex (in some areas at least), but it doesn't make them more stealthy than high elves, which I feel they should be. The survival is ok. Automatic Languages: Elven, and Sylvan.: Ok... Bonus Languages: Auran, Draconic, Common, Giant, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc.: Why would they have more language options than high elves? Do they socialize more with other races? Or are they better educated? Because that's what it (together with the Int bonus) seems like if you just look at the stats. Automatic Proficiency with the scimitar, kukuri, longbow, and shortbow.: The changes make sense, though why they would train with a weapon they're racially inclined to suck with (the bow), is beyond me. Immunity to Magic sleep effects, +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.: It's fine, and one of the few elven traits they have left, but with all the other bonuses they get, maybe you should drop this one, since it's not related to nature in any way. Favored class: Scout.: Scouts rely on Dex a lot, and are often archers. Sylvan elves have nothing save a +2 to survival that really benefits a Scout. LA 1: It's too weak to have an LA, but too strong not to. Make a decision about which way you ant to take it. Also, they miss the bonuses to spot and listen compared to high elves, and I've never heard of woodland creatures with senses that are more dull than their civilised counterparts.
JulesCARV 07-20-07, 09:55 AM	Interestingly, your Sylvan elves seem to be somewhat similar mechanically to sharakim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=3) from Races of Destiny.
Keenath 07-20-07, 10:59 AM	Ok, let me compare this with the normal elf (disregarding the LA): +2 Int: This makes them better wizards than high elves - despite not having wizard as favored class, and it makes them better at skills like descipher script, disable device, and knowledge skills. It doesn't fit the flavor of 'primitive' elves living in close contact to nature at all. I agree. I'd remove the Int bonus, definitely. +8 racial bonus on climb checks, can always take 10 on climb checks.: Like scent - not implausible, but could be dumbed to reduce LA.Not really; this is part of having a climb speed. Any creature with a climb speed can take 10 on climb checks and gets a +8 on them; swim speed gives the same bonuses to swim checks.
Lawlicron 07-20-07, 12:01 PM	I'm using this to replace wood and wild elves, and I'm just getting rid of aquatic elves. I probably should, however throw in an LA. Even if your just replacing them, you can simply say "Wild/Wood elves don't exist! But Sylvan elves do, who are mechanically the same". And Sea Elves are the only cool elves, don't get rid of them.
key 07-20-07, 01:07 PM	And Sea Elves are the only cool elves, don't get rid of them. What do you like about them?
Erato 07-20-07, 03:23 PM	Not really; this is part of having a climb speed. Any creature with a climb speed can take 10 on climb checks and gets a +8 on them; swim speed gives the same bonuses to swim checks. Yeah, sorry about that. I was in a hurry, so I just commented on the abilities in the order they were presented :embarrass What I meant was that the climb speed was alright, and even flavorful, but that it could be dropped to make them LA +0.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-20-07, 05:34 PM	Hmm, maybe, since I made them LA 1, to help make them deserve an LA I should give them ordinary High Elf bonuses to spot, listen and search. Oh, and all their bonus languages are there so (theoretically) they can understand their enemies (Green Dragons, orcs, hobgoblins, and giants) and communicate with their allies (gnomes, giant eagles, halflings, and the occasional humans).
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 07-30-07, 04:34 PM	I'm bored.:bump:
Xavorin 07-30-07, 05:37 PM	I've created an elven subrace for my campaign world to replace Wood and Wild elves. Here it is. Ideas would be appreciated. The Sylvan Elf Medium Humanoid (elf) Speed: 30 ft, Climb 20 ft. +2 Dex, +2 Str, -2 Cha, -2 Con. Sylvan Elves are agile and strong, but are reserved and frail. Low-Light Vision, Scent. +8 racial bonus on climb checks, can always take 10 on climb checks. +2 racial bonus on Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Search, and Listen checks. Automatic Languages: Elven, and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Auran, Draconic, Common, Giant, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc. Automatic Proficiency with the scimitar, kukuri, longbow, and shortbow. Immunity to Magic sleep effects, +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects. Favored class: Scout. LA 1 Multiclass scout/rangers are rather common among Sylvan Elves. Well if you ask me, it seems apparent that these are supposed to be Scouts. And Rangers. So I'd make ability score adjustments +4 Dex, -4 Con. Leave it at that. Low-light vision is fine, but to help get rid of the LA, get rid of scent. The climb stuff seems fine and right. To balance out the climb, though, I'd just give them a bonus to Survival. The +4 Dex bonus would help MS and Hide enough. Languages make perfect sense. Proficiencies seem ok, but to help with the LA, I'd just get rid of kukuris and shortbows. They get shortbow profciency from being a scout, and who would want a kukuri if they could use a scimitar? The last bit to get rid of the LA would, I think, involve getting rid of the immunity to sleep effects and the bonus to saves against enchantment spells. If they're reclusive like that, I think that they wouldn't have access to that much enchantment magic, and thus wouldn't have built up a resistance to it, and an immunity to sleep effects. I think that would get rid of the LA, if that was a goal, which I think it would be. That's my :twocents:.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 08-13-07, 08:37 PM	:waits::allalone::bored:Hello? Anyone? do I need to bump again?:bump:
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 10:32 PM	What do you like about them? I always really enjoyed being close to the ocean personally. I also have played some sea-elves and half sea-elves (Makes playing half-elf worth it). I'm very fond of the dolphin like movements I imagine them making in my head. I just see so much more grace and serenity in them than normal elves. I also feel that personality wise they would be very enjoyable to be around as while normal elves would be a pain in the ass to be around. Back on topic. They are fine as is now, if you must. Except that you need to add common as a base language. Not having common as a base language is not a balancing factor in anything. It just means the party is going to ignore it and someone who speaks a language the sylvan elf does will always be talking through him. LA+1 is fine. For flavor you might want to remove one or two of their bonus languages. They can't possibly have that much trouble with goblins as a +1 LA race so maybe remove goblin.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 08-14-07, 04:57 PM	Read post 25 again and you might get my reasoning with languages. Hobgoblins also have an LA of 1, so the warriors of both races have similar strength (and already hate each other). Not getting Common as an auto language is more for flavor than for balance (coming from the fact that they take dwarf, human, and savage humanoid intruders prisoner on sight). I should probably throw the aquatic elves back.
Imreallyagreatredwyrm 08-26-07, 09:03 PM	:bump:
Khadmus 08-27-07, 10:36 AM	You're replacing an LA+0 race with a LA+1 race. I think that the wood elf/wild elf have niches that this race does not adequately fill. We have half a million elven subraces for a good reason, you know (although some of the more recent subraces are redundant when combined with the wild elf, the wood elf's niche has not been filled by a new elven subrace. Replace just the wild elf with this and I think you're set.)
reaper5081 08-27-07, 08:48 PM	Don't think this really needs the LA