Table of HD worth? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Table of HD worth? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nirid
08-31-07, 10:26 PM Most of my players hate ECL with a passion that knows no bounds and would much rather play of CR then the despised ECL. I try to explain to them that certain creatures potential use of abilites as PC far outshines anything a monster will reasonably get to pull off before it's dealt with. It's a no go.

The thing is I don't disagree that ECL is off, and where I think it falls the most is racial HD. A monsterous human HD is not worth a character level. A fey HD is an insult. I know they try to balance monsters with their racial HD type in mind, but sometimes I think they forget how little those HD mean when compared to a level of fighter or wizard.

There was a table in the back of a monster book that listed the value of a monster HD when compared to a class level. It was pre 3.5 I think, and I would love to find it again so I could scale back some ECL that are overly inflated by HD. Has anyone else seen this table or am I going crazy(er)?
runestar
08-31-07, 10:35 PM The thing is I don't disagree that ECL is off

In a way, this is one of the major problems, since wotc apparently has a very poor track record when it comes to determining accurate LAs, and thus, ECL.

The 2nd problem is the 1-size-fits-all nature of LA, which may not mesh well with certain abilities whose usefulness fluctuates over different levels. For example, flight is arguably less important at higher lvs (when alternatives are readily accessible) than at lower lvs, but you are forced to pay the full price for it, and there is little recourse for reclaiming those lost HD from LA later on.

and where I think it falls the most is racial HD. A monsterous human HD is not worth a character level. A fey HD is an insult. I know they try to balance monsters with their racial HD type in mind, but sometimes I think they forget how little those HD mean when compared to a level of fighter or wizard.

In a way, it should already have been factored into their LA. For example, a creature with crappier racial HD should have a lower LA for the same abilities compared to a creature with superior HD. Whether this was actually implemented, or even implemented properly, I have no idea though.:(
Thomar_of_Uointer
08-31-07, 10:35 PM Most of my players hate ECL with a passion that knows no bounds and would much rather play of CR then the despised ECL. I try to explain to them that certain creatures potential use of abilites as PC far outshines anything a monster will reasonably get to pull off before it's dealt with. It's a no go.

The thing is I don't disagree that ECL is off, and where I think it falls the most is racial HD. A monsterous human HD is not worth a character level. A fey HD is an insult. I know they try to balance monsters with their racial HD type in mind, but sometimes I think they forget how little those HD mean when compared to a level of fighter or wizard.

There was a table in the back of a monster book that listed the value of a monster HD when compared to a class level. It was pre 3.5 I think, and I would love to find it again so I could scale back some ECL that are overly inflated by HD. Has anyone else seen this table or am I going crazy(er)?

The Monster Manual lists the Challenge Rating increases for advancing creatures by Hit Dice, seperated by type. However, Challenge Rating is different from Level Adjustment.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice

The table looks fairly easy to invert, but keep in mind that this is only a rough approximation. Some creatures have abilities that scale based on their Hit Dice, and others don't gain much of their power from their Hit Dice. I'd say you can treat +1 LA as equivalent to 2 aberration, construct, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant, undead, or vermin Hit Dice, +1 LA equivalent to 3 animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +1 LA equivalent to 4 dragon or outsider Hit Dice.
Nirid
09-01-07, 09:40 PM Ahh that's the rub... There is some pre 3.5 DM book or Monster book that had a table that more accurately compared them to advancing by levels. I can't find that freaking book anymore though. I don't know if it was someone else’s I flipped through or one of mine that I've lost. Someone else recalls seeing so I don't think I've gone delusional yet, but the where is killing me.
StevenO
09-01-07, 11:26 PM Ignoring other "racial" abilities I'd say the Dragon and Outsider HD are definitely worth there effect of ECL. Both of those have full BAB and all good saves and a high number of skill points to go with a d12 and d8 HD. Monstrous Humanoids and Magical Beasts (not that there are many playable beasts) aren't too bad for the warrior types as each offers full BAB and two good save along with an average HD. Beyond those the ECL cost doesn't match up well other racial HD but in many cases those poor racial HD may be the reason the LA isn't higher that it is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nirid 08-31-07, 10:26 PM	Most of my players hate ECL with a passion that knows no bounds and would much rather play of CR then the despised ECL. I try to explain to them that certain creatures potential use of abilites as PC far outshines anything a monster will reasonably get to pull off before it's dealt with. It's a no go. The thing is I don't disagree that ECL is off, and where I think it falls the most is racial HD. A monsterous human HD is not worth a character level. A fey HD is an insult. I know they try to balance monsters with their racial HD type in mind, but sometimes I think they forget how little those HD mean when compared to a level of fighter or wizard. There was a table in the back of a monster book that listed the value of a monster HD when compared to a class level. It was pre 3.5 I think, and I would love to find it again so I could scale back some ECL that are overly inflated by HD. Has anyone else seen this table or am I going crazy(er)?
runestar 08-31-07, 10:35 PM	The thing is I don't disagree that ECL is off In a way, this is one of the major problems, since wotc apparently has a very poor track record when it comes to determining accurate LAs, and thus, ECL. The 2nd problem is the 1-size-fits-all nature of LA, which may not mesh well with certain abilities whose usefulness fluctuates over different levels. For example, flight is arguably less important at higher lvs (when alternatives are readily accessible) than at lower lvs, but you are forced to pay the full price for it, and there is little recourse for reclaiming those lost HD from LA later on. and where I think it falls the most is racial HD. A monsterous human HD is not worth a character level. A fey HD is an insult. I know they try to balance monsters with their racial HD type in mind, but sometimes I think they forget how little those HD mean when compared to a level of fighter or wizard. In a way, it should already have been factored into their LA. For example, a creature with crappier racial HD should have a lower LA for the same abilities compared to a creature with superior HD. Whether this was actually implemented, or even implemented properly, I have no idea though.:(
Thomar_of_Uointer 08-31-07, 10:35 PM	Most of my players hate ECL with a passion that knows no bounds and would much rather play of CR then the despised ECL. I try to explain to them that certain creatures potential use of abilites as PC far outshines anything a monster will reasonably get to pull off before it's dealt with. It's a no go. The thing is I don't disagree that ECL is off, and where I think it falls the most is racial HD. A monsterous human HD is not worth a character level. A fey HD is an insult. I know they try to balance monsters with their racial HD type in mind, but sometimes I think they forget how little those HD mean when compared to a level of fighter or wizard. There was a table in the back of a monster book that listed the value of a monster HD when compared to a class level. It was pre 3.5 I think, and I would love to find it again so I could scale back some ECL that are overly inflated by HD. Has anyone else seen this table or am I going crazy(er)? The Monster Manual lists the Challenge Rating increases for advancing creatures by Hit Dice, seperated by type. However, Challenge Rating is different from Level Adjustment. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice The table looks fairly easy to invert, but keep in mind that this is only a rough approximation. Some creatures have abilities that scale based on their Hit Dice, and others don't gain much of their power from their Hit Dice. I'd say you can treat +1 LA as equivalent to 2 aberration, construct, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant, undead, or vermin Hit Dice, +1 LA equivalent to 3 animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +1 LA equivalent to 4 dragon or outsider Hit Dice.
Nirid 09-01-07, 09:40 PM	Ahh that's the rub... There is some pre 3.5 DM book or Monster book that had a table that more accurately compared them to advancing by levels. I can't find that freaking book anymore though. I don't know if it was someone else’s I flipped through or one of mine that I've lost. Someone else recalls seeing so I don't think I've gone delusional yet, but the where is killing me.
StevenO 09-01-07, 11:26 PM	Ignoring other "racial" abilities I'd say the Dragon and Outsider HD are definitely worth there effect of ECL. Both of those have full BAB and all good saves and a high number of skill points to go with a d12 and d8 HD. Monstrous Humanoids and Magical Beasts (not that there are many playable beasts) aren't too bad for the warrior types as each offers full BAB and two good save along with an average HD. Beyond those the ECL cost doesn't match up well other racial HD but in many cases those poor racial HD may be the reason the LA isn't higher that it is.