Post/Author/DateTime	Post
archangel_turel 09-12-07, 08:21 AM	i have a character with the insectile template - (+2 arms), and reach 9th level of Fang of Lolth PrC (wich give me 4 more arms) - i will be able to attack with 8 limbs right? (i have multiattack and improved multiattack feats) my base attack is +11/+6/+1 how many attacks i will be able to make in a fullround attack action?
Arturius1 09-12-07, 09:00 AM	Why does the post say ten limbs, but the message say eight? Anyways, with Improved Multiattack, you'll have 17 attacks per round: 3 with your primary attack, 2 for each secondary arm.
Zylo_Drizzt 09-12-07, 09:00 AM	I believe that some of the extra arms are not able to make attacks.
Keenath 09-12-07, 09:42 AM	Why does the post say ten limbs, but the message say eight?Eight arms equals ten limbs, because the other two are legs. how many attacks i will be able to make in a fullround attack action?Okay, first, you probably meant you have "multiweapon fighting". Multiattack is about using your natual attacks at reduced penalties, and you didn't mention any of those arms granting natural attacks. If they do, then you're looking at a much more complicated situation. With Multiweapon Fighting and eight arms, you'd get all three primary attacks and seven offhand attacks at -4 each, for a total of: +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/-3 With Improved Multiweapon Fighting, you'd get an additional offhand attack at -5 with each arm, which adds up to: +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/-3 That's eight +7 attacks, one with each arm, eight +2 attacks (again, one per arm), and one attack at -3 with your primary hand. I would strongly suggest you don't do this, becuase it's going to make everyone at the table hate you -- your turn will take twenty minutes whenever you full attack!
archangel_turel 09-12-07, 10:06 AM	Eight arms equals ten limbs, because the other two are legs. Okay, first, you probably meant you have "multiweapon fighting". Multiattack is about using your natual attacks at reduced penalties, and you didn't mention any of those arms granting natural attacks. If they do, then you're looking at a much more complicated situation. With Multiweapon Fighting and eight arms, you'd get all three primary attacks and seven offhand attacks at -4 each, for a total of: +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/-3 With Improved Multiweapon Fighting, you'd get an additional offhand attack at -5 with each arm, which adds up to: +7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/-3 That's eight +7 attacks, one with each arm, eight +2 attacks (again, one per arm), and one attack at -3 with your primary hand. I would strongly suggest you don't do this, becuase it's going to make everyone at the table hate you -- your turn will take twenty minutes whenever you full attack! I do mean Multiattack yes - every extra limb is a natural claw attack - sorry i forgot to mention that - the Insectile template gives an extra pair of limbs that you must have multiattack to use them properly, and the fang of lolth PrC gives you four more arms that you can use as a secondary attack with the normal -5 penalty (-2 if you have multiattack and -0 if you have improved multiattack) thanks for the help.. i will post the build of the character when i finish to choose the feats (a 20hd build for an epic campaign), to you see if i did right or i miss something (i am looking at the savage species book and i am really really tempted in add the feral template as well [2 primary natural attacks?? - claw damage increase to d8(all of them?), fast healing, improved grab, pounce, rake, rend??? )
Keenath 09-12-07, 10:15 AM	I do mean Multiattack yes - every extra limb is a natural claw attack - sorry i forgot to mention that - the Insectile template gives an extra pair of limbs that you must have multiattack to use them properly, and the fang of lolth PrC gives you four more arms that you can use as a secondary attack with the normal -5 penalty (-2 if you have multiattack and -0 if you have improved multiattack) thanks for the help.. Okay, hold it right there! My answer ONLY counts if EVERY arm is holding a weapon. If your Fang of Lolth arms are claws-only, then you have to calculate them differently because you can't make multiple attacks with natural weapons, but they don't inhibit your ability to use primary attacks. If you have four normal arms and four claw-only-arms, then your full attack routine is as follows: You make a primary attack, followed by three offhand attacks (all at -4), then four "secondary natural weapon" attacks at full BAB-5. Thus, which Improved Multiweapon Fighting, you would get: +7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/+2/+2/-3 with your four weapons, and +6/+6/+6/+6 with your claws. If you also took Multiattack, that would reduce the secondary natural weapon penalties to -2 each, which means they'd be at +9 instead of +6. With Improved Multiattack, your claws would be at +11 each. And if I were your DM, I'd still club you with a phone book for taking up too much table-time. Not QUITE as bad as the "I'll summon fourteen animals!" druid, but very nearly.
Unholy_King 09-12-07, 12:33 PM	I do mean Multiattack yes - every extra limb is a natural claw attack - sorry i forgot to mention that - the Insectile template gives an extra pair of limbs that you must have multiattack to use them properly, and the fang of lolth PrC gives you four more arms that you can use as a secondary attack with the normal -5 penalty (-2 if you have multiattack and -0 if you have improved multiattack) Make sure you clear it with your DM before you take advantage of a questionable loophole.
dman11235 09-12-07, 01:05 PM	Insectile grants you no new attacks. It specifically says so. Unless you have changed the template, you will have 6 natural attacks.
Unholy_King 09-12-07, 01:21 PM	Due to poor wording of Insectile template and thw wording of Multiattack feats, some people believe you can get attacks from them. Beat this is clearly abusive and against what the Insectile Temple is supposed to do.
dman11235 09-12-07, 01:48 PM	I'm looking at the template now, and it says pretty clearly that despite getting more arms, you gain no new attacks.
archangel_turel 09-12-07, 01:57 PM	OOPS.... My bad! didn't read properly that part... i thiks is better begin as a Thri-kreen then... four primary natural attacks.... al in all.. after reading this post and looking carefully at the savage species handbook i saw that it gives you FOUR more arms.. so that character would have 12 limbs instead 10.. hehe... Thanks for the help.. i believe my DM would allow me to play that character but better do what is right... thanks again
Unholy_King 09-12-07, 01:59 PM	It has to do with the wording of the Improved Multiattack feat.
dman11235 09-12-07, 02:07 PM	When it says that a creature's natural attacks? Not arms, but natural attacks? I don't see anything ambiguous there at all. I'll even quote the SRD: Improved Multiattack [General] Prerequisite Three or more natural weapons, Multiattack Benefit The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons have no penalty. They still add only one-half the creature’s Strength bonus, if any, to damage dealt. Normal Without this feat, the creature’s secondary natural attacks have a -5 penalty (or a -2 penalty if it has the Multiattack feat).
Unholy_King 09-12-07, 02:12 PM	I'll let someone who actually believes it show it to you.
dman11235 09-12-07, 02:23 PM	That's going to be hard. Like showing me that the world is flat. When something is that easy to see, I mean come on, there is no way around that, unless you think that a human has five or more natural attacks (head, two fists, and two feet).
ToastedAmphibian 09-12-07, 04:10 PM	6. Dont forget the slam attack.
ToastedAmphibian 09-12-07, 04:15 PM	Is there anywhere that explains teh natural atack routine in detail? Im making a sahuagin mutant character, and I kinda want to make sure i do it right. All four claw attacks are primary weapons right? That means multi-attack and improved multi attack onlyh apply to the bite? (Thinking of going kensai, so i wont be using teh bite) If i go ranger, does the multi weapon fighting tree automatically switch out to teh two weapon fighting tree? If not, can i use two 2-handed weapons using the two weapon fighting feats?
Keenath 09-12-07, 05:02 PM	Is there anywhere that explains teh natural atack routine in detail? Im making a sahuagin mutant character, and I kinda want to make sure i do it right.Yes, it's all in the srd, HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons). All four claw attacks are primary weapons right? That means multi-attack and improved multi attack onlyh apply to the bite? Correct. Note that Mutants have multiattack as a bonus feat. However, also note that if you attack with even one manufactured weapon, you can still make claw attacks -- but they're all secondary, even though your claws are usually primary. And remember that you can't claw with an arm that's weilding a normal weapon. If i go ranger, does the multi weapon fighting tree automatically switch out to teh two weapon fighting tree? If not, can i use two 2-handed weapons using the two weapon fighting feats?Does the tree automatically switch out? Yes. The "Special" entry on MWF says, "This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms. " I would interpret that to mean any time you would otherwise get TWF, you can get MWF instead. Now, notice that Multiweapon fighting doesn't give you the ability to use light offhand weapons to get an additional -2 on the penalties. Multiweapon, you're stuck with a -4, so you might as well use lots of one-hand weapons. If you have TWF instead of MWF, for whatever reason, you can only use one additional weapon (or a single double-ended weapon), so TWF would not allow you to use two quarterstaves, for example. But you could use one double weapon, and use the other two as just claws. If you have MWF, I would allow you to use two double weapons in lieu of four single weapons. Since you get no benefit for carrying light weapons in his three off-hands, there's no significant penalty for doing so.
ToastedAmphibian 09-12-07, 07:25 PM	Thank you for the reply. But i think you might have misunderstood one of my questions. I wasnt asking about using two double weapons, but rather two 2-handed weapons (2 greataxes, 2 long spears, ect.)
dman11235 09-12-07, 08:53 PM	Play a Diopsid? I honestly don't know, but I'd assume that you'd follow rules for TWF with a one-hander in the off-hand. Or maybe take the rules from the Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) and adapt from there.
LarryLaffer 09-13-07, 11:16 AM	there's a good guide in the XPH for the thri-Kreen's double weapons. If they fight with two of them they are consideed to be fighitng with one-handed weapons in each hand. thus the -4 penality. my dm allowed me to take oversized two-weapon fighting (forget which book it's out of) to reduce it to the light weapon penality of -2.
Keenath 09-13-07, 11:21 AM	Thank you for the reply. But i think you might have misunderstood one of my questions. I wasnt asking about using two double weapons, but rather two 2-handed weapons (2 greataxes, 2 long spears, ect.) Well, same deal. You can do so, and you take a -4 to each attack. One weapon is "primary" and the other "off-hand". there's a good guide in the XPH for the thri-Kreen's double weapons. If they fight with two of them they are consideed to be fighitng with one-handed weapons in each hand. thus the -4 penality. my dm allowed me to take oversized two-weapon fighting (forget which book it's out of) to reduce it to the light weapon penality of -2.Well, I'll mention it again, the Multiweapon Fighting feat makes no mention of further reducing the penalty by holding light weapons in all your off-hands; I see no evidence that a four-armed character with four daggers can attack with them any more effectively than the same character holding four longswords. That would also mean that Oversized TWF wouldn't grant any benefit, because treating one-handed weapons as light weapons doesn't affect your attack penalties. I suspect this is intentionally done to try to reduce the incredible complexity of dealing with multi-armed creatures, but if your DM wants to allow it, that's certainly his right. (Complexity here is in the sense that you reduce the penalty by 2 if you're holding a light weapon in all but your primary hand, but if you pick up one extra sword, you lose that benefit even though you have four arms holding daggers... etc etc etc... it's a pain.)
dman11235 09-13-07, 01:20 PM	Agreed. I just want to see someone adapt Tempest(CAdv? Or CW) to multi-limbed characters.