Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel_Tyrael 03-12-07, 09:04 PM	Has anyone ever brought up the point that none of the core races have a bonus to ANY of the mental abilities? Sure you got your +2's to Str, Con, and Dex...but where are the natural-born spellcasters? The favored class for Elves is Wizard, but where is their bonus to Int (and a negative to Con?!?!? who's going to play Wizard with a negative to Con?) ? I mean, their average lifespan is about 550 years.
jaelis 03-12-07, 09:07 PM	There's a good reason for that. Bonuses to mental abilities are potentially unbalancing for casters tied to that ability. It gives them two very powerful things: first, a +1 to save DCs, and second, bonus spells. One of a caster's top level spells is often sufficient to win an encounter, so anything that gives away more of them is quite powerful.
crimsonwolf 03-12-07, 09:07 PM	the same pepole that stay in the back all day long and cast fireballs and make rings of blinking for there @@@@ ring.......
Crimson_Concerto 03-12-07, 09:30 PM	The core races certainly are smart. They're just not smarter than humans. I always thought the elves thing was weird, too, but whatcha gonna do? Also, the reason none of the core races getts a mental stat bonus is that they wanted the core races to be generic enough to be any class, and to some players, giving a mental bonus is a gigantic red flag that says, "If I'm not a caster, you're doing it wrong!" It's not because mental stats are unbalacing for a race to have a bonus to.
Dastari 03-12-07, 10:23 PM	Has anyone ever brought up the point that none of the core races have a bonus to ANY of the mental abilities? Sure you got your +2's to Str, Con, and Dex...but where are the natural-born spellcasters? The favored class for Elves is Wizard, but where is their bonus to Int (and a negative to Con?!?!? who's going to play Wizard with a negative to Con?) ? I mean, their average lifespan is about 550 years. Gray elves have +2 to Int and Dex and a -2 to Con and Str. Only one of the variants of the common races that I know of with a mental stat bonus though. I keep on meaning to play a Gray Elf wizard or maybe a gray elf swashbuckler.
Jaxgaret 03-12-07, 10:41 PM	Gray elves have +2 to Int and Dex and a -2 to Con and Str. Only one of the variants of the common races that I know of with a mental stat bonus though. I keep on meaning to play a Gray Elf wizard or maybe a gray elf swashbuckler. Gray Elf Rogue3/Fighter2/Swashie3/CoCL2 +Int, +Dex to damage for a race with +2 Int and Dex :)
Archangel_Tyrael 03-12-07, 10:52 PM	But a gray elf isn't core
fatal error 03-12-07, 10:53 PM	Gray Elf Rogue3/Fighter2/Swashie3/CoCL2 +Int, +Dex to damage for a race with +2 Int and Dex :) I presume CoCL gives you dexterity to damage? Don't forget to grab a level of Swordsage for +dexterity to damage from the Shadow Blade feat, so long as you don't mind using a Shortsword over a Rapier.
Crimson_Concerto 03-12-07, 11:11 PM	But a gray elf isn't core The Monster Manuel is core, hun. That's where you find the Grey Elf.
shah_0 03-12-07, 11:34 PM	I used to wonder about how elves lived so long but had a - 2 to Con. But, when you think about it, longevity has nothing to do with constitution or "hardiness." Humans live longer than horses, but which on average would you consider to be hardier?
Stardust 03-13-07, 12:06 AM	Gray elves have +2 to Int and Dex and a -2 to Con and Str. Only one of the variants of the common races that I know of with a mental stat bonus though. I keep on meaning to play a Gray Elf wizard or maybe a gray elf swashbuckler. Gray Elves are awesome! I've just statted up a Gray Elf wizard/rogue, going for arcane trickster. At 3rd level (our starting point) I have 20 Int and 18 Dex. The rest of the stats are mediocre at best (and Con hurts somewhat), but with the free longbow proficiency, bonus spells, increased DC, low-light vision and bombload of skill points, at least I don't have to worry about the journey to 10th level (where the build stops being rather gimped) being as painful as the average Arcane Trickster. Come to think of it, Gray Elves might be the perfect AT race... The Swashbuckler potential is also rather exciting, too bad the DM is new to the job and has specified Core only... (And yes, for the person who commented on it, Gray Elves are from the monster manual and so are Core material, even if not one of the 'standard' races.)
crimsonwolf 03-13-07, 12:13 AM	well then so are warforge shifters .......... mm2 mm3
Stardust 03-13-07, 12:16 AM	well then so are warforge shifters .......... mm2 mm3 No, they're not. The Monster Manual is Core. Not MM2, MM3, MMIV or whatever, just MM. The Core books are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual. No others, even if the names are similar.
Moon-Lancer 03-13-07, 04:33 AM	There's a good reason for that. Bonuses to mental abilities are potentially unbalancing for casters tied to that ability. It gives them two very powerful things: first, a +1 to save DCs, and second, bonus spells. One of a caster's top level spells is often sufficient to win an encounter, so anything that gives away more of them is quite powerful. is that why the half orc gets two negative mental stats but a boost to strength? having a race get a mental stat boost is not unbalancing. A lesser asmear get a +2 cha but no negative. The creates of d&d think cha isent enough to balance out a positive stat so likewise one can get a +2cha without needing a negative stat. do i agree with this? I'm not sure, but wtc does.
Wharin 03-13-07, 08:35 AM	It really is a slippery slope, and a tough question Originally, the 3rd Edition creators weren't so keen on giving mental bonuses on non level adjusted creatures. Sure there was the few sub races in the DMG, but those were intended as DM options and not the standard. If they were meant to be "core" as most people think of "core" races they'd have been in the PHB. And the reason is pretty much as seen in this and other thread. While it doesnt make them *incredibly* more powerfu (I am not going to poop my pants any harder upon meeting a grey elf wizard than a moon elf wizard)l, a race with a bonus to a mental score (that the caster class uses) without some insane penalty to other scores does become a strictly *better* caster, which, while it may not be game breaking, doesn't exactly promote race/class combo expirementation which is half of what makes 3rd edition so attractive (to me at least). And the reason for this "brokeness" is because of MAD, or Multiple Attribute Dependency, or lack there of. Where as a Caster with all 10's save for an 18 in his respective required stat for casting can still make a halfway decent mage, any other type of character with only one stat that gives him a bonus is likely going to be orc fodder, particularly at the lower levels. Obviously with all of these new releases its becoming clearer that Wizards is moving away from their original Paradigm, and have begun to create LA +0 races that do indeed have bonuses to mental stats. While I still am not crazy about the idea, particularly when internet weasels insist on coming on these boards as asking for which esoteric/exotic/unknown race (that they probably have never heard of) gives them the most bonuses without caring about their actual racial write up, its become clear that I am in the minority on this issue. So while yes, you won't find any of the core, core races with a mental bonus, its more because of a grandfather clause clinging to the idea of free-form class/race comboing, and less because "they aren't smart"