Post/Author/DateTime	Post
locustechpriest 08-06-07, 09:14 PM	What must one do to live forever? I am looking for a comparison of various templates, rituals, or what-have-you that can give immortality. I don't much care what form it takes, so long as a person lives (or unlives) forever (assuming no accidents or attempts on his life). My goal here is to see what kind of costs we are given for the attainment of immortality. This is more an exercise of curiosity than practicality, so: Who is with me? :D
locustechpriest 08-06-07, 09:21 PM	First candidate: Lich! Here are the things that I see as inherent "costs" of becoming a lich: - Phylactery Creation - Undead weaknesses. - LA: +4 - Must be/becomes "unspeakably evil". (Although, some might see that as a benefit, it is something of a role-playing barrier.) Not all of these are mitigating the immortality effect though. So here are the "benefits", as I see them: - Hit Die increse to d12. - Undead strengths & immunities. Also immunity to cold, electricity, and polymorph effects (unless they polymorph themselves), and (despite having a mind) mind-affecting effects. - Ability increases (Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2) - Skill increases (+8 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot) - Touch Attack: "A lich... has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + ½ lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage." - Paralyzing Touch (Su) - Feat Aura (Su) - Damage Reduction (Su) - Immortality
Rerecros 08-06-07, 09:23 PM	Who cares about immortality in D&D, it's pretty lame if your PC dies of natural causes.
Razieliffied 08-06-07, 09:39 PM	Somewhat easier to attain then the Lich is the Necropolitan template, found in Libris Mortis. The character pays 3000gp, one level and an additional 1000xp and gains the undead type and augmented subtype, it suffers many undead strengths and weaknesses but requires no caster level and can be attained relatively early in a PC's career. Primary benefits are the immunities granted by the undead type, the ability to ignore such things as age and due to a special rule the ability to heal like a living creature over time. The only base race I can think of off-hand would be the warforged. Short of being hacked apart with an axe/claw/rock/etc the Warforged does not age and does not die. Much like most other constructs and living constructs.
Reyemile 08-06-07, 09:45 PM	If you can make it long enough between bodies to regain the exp, one can live forever with True Mindswitch. Green Star Adept becomes an immortal construct at its last level, though frankly if you take that last level, you're much more likely to die of UNnatural causes. You can be an Elan. Or a Dragonwrought Kobold. Or Warforged.
Khatoblepas 08-06-07, 09:52 PM	Lich: - You turn into an unholy, uncaring, unfeeling monstrosity, whose soul is trapped inside a tiny object which you must covet. - Adventurers flock to you like flies. Mountain Climbing Class in Frostburn: - You spend 10 levels in something that doesn't give you many options. Elan-ification: - You lose all your class levels. Be a Killoren - You still reach Old age, and you're a fey. You look like a half elf, though, so it's not that bad. (not a freaking plant cat thing.)
TiwazTyrsfist 08-06-07, 10:09 PM	When you turn sixty, and every 40 years there after, cast wish and wish to be de-aged to the physical age of 20 again.
locustechpriest 08-06-07, 10:21 PM	Who cares about immortality in D&D, it's pretty lame if your PC dies of natural causes. This is more an exercise of curiosity than practicality, so: Who is with me? Besides that, isn't your statement support for immortality. Who wants to be lame, after all? :P You can be an Elan. Or a Dragonwrought Kobold. Or Warforged. The first and last ones, great. The kobold though: I thought they just ignored ability penalties for aging. I mean, even dragons themselves die of old age. How about this: Vampire: - Noctoural, at least until you become a Lord, totally evil, and pagued with a variety of absurd phobias. (Although, in all honesty: all of these things would ammuse me greatly.) - Favorite prey for overzealous wierdos. Mitigating factor for the lich: if you don't set up an evil empire (which is unlikely) practically no one will notice/care. This is tougher on the vampire... *gets thirsty* ...but he could abduct/dominate some small children and farm them. *feed child, feed on child* Peasant children are rarely missed... When you turn sixty, and every 40 years there after, cast wish and wish to be de-aged to the physical age of 20 again. Or be a dwarf and increase it to 85 years per 5.000xp spent. The true benefit of this method, though, is that you don't have all those freak vampire slayers and such chasing you down. Of course, abuse of wish spells might get someone else chasing you down...
Rerecros 08-06-07, 11:42 PM	Besides that, isn't your statement support for immortality. Who wants to be lame, after all? :P I meant it's lame if your PC lives so long they have to worry about old age, as opposed to honorable death by an 18 wheeler driven by the incredible hulk. :P
Context 08-07-07, 12:12 AM	My favourite option is to become a fourteenth level sorcerer, transform yourself into a silver or gold dragon using the transubstantiation rules in Savage Species (or pay someone to Wish you into a dragon), and then work towards getting the Dragon Ascendant prestige class (it's epic, sure, but your a dragon and live for thousands of years anyways). Not only do you become immortal, you become a god. The "easier" alternative is to transform yourself into some kind of fiend or outsider. They're all immortal.
Grumman 08-07-07, 12:26 AM	There is a Renegade something-or-other PrC in the Magic of Ebberon book, which turns you into a Living Construct, like a warforged. The Cloud Anchorite from Frostfell becomes immortal.
runestar 08-07-07, 12:34 AM	Immortality alone is hard to price in game terms, since its impact cannot be properly measured. Make it too cheap, and everyone gets one, possibly upsetting your campaign. Make it too expensive, and there is no point for NPCs getting them, since it eats into their limited wealth (which could be used on more useful magic gear, and they generally won't care about dying of old age anyways, if the DM is pitting them against you as a foe). Same for PCs, since they will clearly get more benefit spending the same amount of gold on say, upgrading their magic weapon (which yields more tangible benefits) as compared to an amulet which retards aging (which has no apparent in-game benefit). If such an item were to be created, I would probably price it at no more than 10-15k max. And that, IMO, is still 10-15k too much.
Zebppir 08-07-07, 12:49 AM	I belive in dragon before it was slain a spell was called wed to the ages or something like that that said you live untill you are killed meaning you could outlive a lich as you could pass off as a normal human
Hideous Phidias 08-07-07, 12:59 AM	fey outsider monk 20l
TiwazTyrsfist 08-07-07, 11:39 AM	Renegade Mastermaker, my favorite prestige class.
ArochanoX 08-07-07, 11:41 AM	All constructs, feys, outsiders and undead live forever and do not die from natural causes. Also some races with little or no LA: Planetouched - Aasimar - Tiefling - Genasis (fire, water, air, earth) - Mechanatrix - Wispling - Shyft - there are a lot more Elan Necropolitan Killoren Warforged Maug (ECL 5, but listed because it's so damn good still) Saint (template) There are also feats and abilities that grant you more time to live: reincarnation (spell) ruathar (prc) wish (spell) increase age cap (Epic feat) increase age cap (Epic spell effect)
Richmud 08-07-07, 11:55 AM	Everyone always forgets the city-bonded sub level for urban souls. It prevents aging as long as remain within the city you bonded with. Sure you're stuck in one city for eternity but at least there is more for you to do then if you are stuck hanging out on a mountain. Beyond that I had a BBEG who was a city bonded Urban soul who was attempting to expand his city to encompass the world
Spikes01k 08-07-07, 12:18 PM	I'm sorry, but where does it say here that you can make yourself age 20 again? Wish Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, XP Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects. * Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. * Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. * Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. * Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school. * Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity. * Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value. * Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item. * Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies. * Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead. * Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level. * Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. * Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells). Material Component When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP. P.S. I don't say anywhere in the Outsider sub/type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) that allows it to be immortal ether.
Silver_Bulette 08-07-07, 12:30 PM	I'm sorry, but where does it say here that you can make yourself age 20 again? Um... It says it's possible, it just might twist your words. Like, you would become level 1 again, or turn into a baby, or something. But even then, few DMs are that cruel.
Spikes01k 08-07-07, 12:35 PM	Um... It says it's possible, it just might twist your words. Like, you would become level 1 again, or turn into a baby, or something. But even then, few DMs are that cruel. Ah ok gotcha.
Legdiwena 08-07-07, 04:05 PM	Lich, Elan, or epic feat to extend life span.
unundindur 08-07-07, 04:11 PM	Immortality alone is hard to price in game terms, since its impact cannot be properly measured. Make it too cheap, and everyone gets one, possibly upsetting your campaign. Make it too expensive, and there is no point for NPCs getting them, since it eats into their limited wealth (which could be used on more useful magic gear, and they generally won't care about dying of old age anyways, if the DM is pitting them against you as a foe). Same for PCs, since they will clearly get more benefit spending the same amount of gold on say, upgrading their magic weapon (which yields more tangible benefits) as compared to an amulet which retards aging (which has no apparent in-game benefit). If such an item were to be created, I would probably price it at no more than 10-15k max. And that, IMO, is still 10-15k too much. I agree with you on all acounts. It doesn't affect balance except for the ultrarare ghost-dragon, but it cannot be to cheap for fluff reasons. 15k sounds reasonable. Its a fluff ability that is really cool, but numerically not worth more than a coke. The elf for example doesn't have a weakness to compensate for their long lives (which could just as well be unlimited)
arderkrag 08-07-07, 08:21 PM	What must one do to live forever? I am looking for a comparison of various templates, rituals, or what-have-you that can give immortality. I don't much care what form it takes, so long as a person lives (or unlives) forever (assuming no accidents or attempts on his life). My goal here is to see what kind of costs we are given for the attainment of immortality. This is more an exercise of curiosity than practicality, so: Who is with me? :D Ok. I my world, I use some non-canon stuff. there's a spell in one book, 9th level - "Extend Life" which extends your life by 1d10 years. I had the question posed - "Can I permanency that on myself?" My answer - yes, but since you are bending the cosmos to do so, you must succeed at a Will save DC Your Level + 5 (the level of permanency) + 9 (Level of extend life) + Your casting modifier twice or go ABSOLUTELY INSANE and become an NPC. For that character, the DC was 44 at 18th level.
TheAnthroDM 08-07-07, 08:29 PM	Who cares about immortality in D&D, it's pretty lame if your PC dies of natural causes. Sorry to disappoint you hun, by some people are actually roleplayers who realize immortality is a perfectly desirable goal for most people. But I'm sure in your lil munchkin world no one care about immortality. ;)
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-07-07, 10:39 PM	could be a bone creature from the book of vile darkness
runestar 08-07-07, 10:43 PM	Planetouched are not immortal. At least the various genasi and assimar/tiefling have age categories (somewhere between that of a human and half-elf).
locustechpriest 08-07-07, 11:54 PM	You got it before me, runestar, but I'll expand slightly. Native outsiders, IIRC, including 20th level monks are not immortal. They are just spiritual. Similarly, they still need to eat, sleep, and breathe.
deanruel 08-08-07, 12:24 AM	Sorry to disappoint you hun, by some people are actually roleplayers who realize immortality is a perfectly desirable goal for most people. But I'm sure in your lil munchkin world no one care about immortality. ;) No flaming. While I do believe immortality is an awfully cool fluff ability he makes a good point as well. How many PC's do you know of that died of breaking a hip in the shower? Compare that to the number of PC's you know of that died fighting fiends in the Abyss and you have tangible proof for the point he's expressing. For NPC's immortality might be the highest of rewards. But for your average PC the greater concern is not surviving old age, it's surviving the ninja assassin squads that are leaping through the tavern windows.
Legdiwena 08-08-07, 04:26 AM	Monk 20 does not do it.
DreamerInsane 08-08-07, 04:45 AM	All constructs, feys, outsiders and undead live forever and do not die from natural causes. Not true. Undead are immortal, yes, as are most, if not all, nonnative outsiders. But fey are not universally immortal. Sure, most do live exceedingly long, and some are indeed immortal (Such as the Killoren), but mortal Fey exist. The Dusklings from Magic of Incarnum are a good example.
ArcTan 08-08-07, 04:51 AM	Um... It says it's possible, it just might twist your words. Like, you would become level 1 again, or turn into a baby, or something. But even then, few DMs are that cruel. It never actually says that it's possible, dude. It's probably not. (I.e. it's the sort of thing where the DM is *supposed* to make the wish go wrong, because it goes beyond effects "in line" with what wish can normally do.) Remember that immortality is the one specific example of something you can't wish for and get.
ArcTan 08-08-07, 04:54 AM	No flaming. While I do believe immortality is an awfully cool fluff ability he makes a good point as well. How many PC's do you know of that died of breaking a hip in the shower? Compare that to the number of PC's you know of that died fighting fiends in the Abyss and you have tangible proof for the point he's expressing. For NPC's immortality might be the highest of rewards. But for your average PC the greater concern is not surviving old age, it's surviving the ninja assassin squads that are leaping through the tavern windows. That's by choice. Most PCs have more than enough resources to sell off their adventuring junk and retire to a life of relative security if they really want. (This was a built-in part of earlier editions of D&D, where you got a "stronghold" and followers and political power for levelling up.) I'm just saying that, realistically, knowing that death means forgoing a potential eternity of experience rather than a mere 20 or 30 extra years would probably make a big difference in someone deciding whether certain risks were really worth it.
El_Machinae 08-08-07, 09:01 PM	I wish there were ways of making teamwork a successful strategy towards immortality (i.e., being able to work with a group and then get everyone immortal)
Mojo_Rat 08-08-07, 09:52 PM	No flaming. While I do believe immortality is an awfully cool fluff ability he makes a good point as well. How many PC's do you know of that died of breaking a hip in the shower? Compare that to the number of PC's you know of that died fighting fiends in the Abyss and you have tangible proof for the point he's expressing. For NPC's immortality might be the highest of rewards. But for your average PC the greater concern is not surviving old age, it's surviving the ninja assassin squads that are leaping through the tavern windows. In an IC roleplaerd world an Item wich let you live forever but had no draw backs would be faught over like an Artifact whos location became known. Concievably kingdoms could rise and fall fighting over it. If you consider how much gold and XP a Lich puts into its phylactery. The Wizard likely is trying to become immortal thee is justpother stuff going with it when he becomes a Lich. the Funny thing is I think having such a live forever item would concievably shorten your life as people saught to kill you for it.
locustechpriest 08-08-07, 10:28 PM	Liches are killed for being evil, since no one can "steal the immortality granting device". It doesn't work for them. If a lich would simply not try to take over the world, he'd probably be just fine. Unfortunately, they need to steal at least one body, so that they can resurect themselves (unless you actually do the 1d10 days reforming) so that makes one kidnaping. Then those ages of boredom usually drive them to dominate, simply for something to do. Now they become a "warlord", or "evil puppeteer". I think they are just generally misunderstood. (Except for the ritual of ultimate evil thing... it's tough to misunderstand that.)
Context 08-08-07, 11:24 PM	While it's not cannon, Trollman and K's "Tome of Necromancy" has a bunch of classes that have immortality or pseudo-immortality in them. They are well written, though some (not me) believe they are unbalanced.
El_Machinae 08-10-07, 10:30 AM	Liches are killed for being evil, since no one can "steal the immortality granting device". It doesn't work for them. If a lich would simply not try to take over the world, he'd probably be just fine. Yeah, exactly. People wanting to kill them becomes the greatest risk of death once one is no longer risking death due to aging. And being a decent fellow is the best way of preventing people from hating you. Even better, having people like having you around would help too
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-10-07, 12:19 PM	to the original poster: I hope whoever intends to do this is of sufficent level to fight an inevitable. (think its the Marut that hunts down those that cheat death)
Richmud 08-10-07, 12:22 PM	(think its the Marut that hunts down those that cheat death) You think correctly, the Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut) is the one the immortal must face
PalyLeto 08-10-07, 02:10 PM	Lich: - You turn into an unholy, uncaring, unfeeling monstrosity, whose soul is trapped inside a tiny object which you must covet. - Adventurers flock to you like flies. Aren't there good liches? I remember seeing something like that somewhere.
Context 08-10-07, 02:34 PM	The 3rd Party, "Lords of the Night" series had a book on... well they weren't exactly good Litches exactly, but they weren't "Powered By Evil" like the garden variety of the Monsters Manual. The Lords of the Night books are actually pretty good (a little bit too powerful but still full of some good ideas).
locustechpriest 08-11-07, 01:09 AM	Even better, having people like having you around would help too. Except for the anti-undead zealots. Probably better to stay out of the lime-light entirely... I hope whoever intends to do this is of sufficent level to fight an inevitable. Speak of the devil!
TheDarkPrince 08-11-07, 01:37 AM	There was a good template lich.....and there is also the undead template used by the Aerenal Elves in Eberron.
unundindur 08-13-07, 04:00 AM	Aren't there good liches? I remember seeing something like that somewhere. Baelenorn; good elf liches that protect old crypts in Cormanthor :)
zeratulcraft 08-13-07, 04:12 AM	Detailed in Monsters of Faerun, IIRC.
locustechpriest 08-13-07, 09:30 AM	Also detailed in the Return of the Archmages series... that is one weird series though. One elf, two women... yep, weird.
Spikes01k 08-13-07, 12:27 PM	Aren't there good liches? I remember seeing something like that somewhere. There was one in the old spellgammer campaign. Its also explains one, probably the original, way to become a lich. When you concentration reaches such epic levels that while you are performing a spell you body dies but you don't even realize it when it happens. So you become a lich as a result.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-13-07, 02:38 PM	Speak of the devil! What did I say it is quite possible if you have a sadistic DM that he do something like that to a person who finds immortality. I wasn't Implying that I have an army of metal men who have nothing better to do than to hunt you down because they believe that you violated their beliefs and you should be destroyed because of it. But i'll say it again. bone or flesh creature (the only use for bovd)
Sul_Zain_Aserbet 08-13-07, 05:25 PM	If you can get to 40th level as a wizard or sorcerer, and find a way to circumvent the level 9 cap on magic spells, you could cast the level 12 spell that lets you switch places with a God. Thats how one guy in the story-line of faerun became a God. Course, after that, the level 9 magic cap got put into place. And an entire empire collapsed. And the spell regs call for the heart of a tarrasque and what not.
locustechpriest 08-13-07, 10:22 PM	Karsus. May he rest in peace. Two insurmountable problems face the followers-in-his-steps. 1) The details of the spell were utterly destroyed by a deity. (Essentially, it cannot be restored by mortal means, short of researching it all over again with the few clues we have.) 2) Magic beyond 9th level cannot be drawn from the Weave, either due to restrictions placed by Mystra, or simply the fact that it was split in two (Weave and Shadow Weave). Solutions? Recreate the spell. This is nearly impossible without the means to experiment, so you need access to 10th level magic and beyond. You need, assuming this is remotely possible, and additional source of (extreme) energy that can be interwoven with the Weave derived power. This may be able to allow use of spells effectively equivalent to the ancient 10th+ magic. Naturally, none of the surviving spells can be cast as they were, because of the necessary differences in the source of power. This new method of spellcasting alone will most likely require generations to perfect, not to mention the research needed to emulate the ancient magic. What to do now? Take the place of a lesser god (to avoid the fate of Karsus). Learn how to rework/cope with the responsibility of the new, lesser Weave, and develop your divine powers. Recast the New Karsus’s Avatar, and take control of the lesser Weave (now having the knowledge and power to repair it). Once you have attained sufficient knowledge of the rammifications of Karsus' Folly, reunite the broken Weave, and keep a close eye on anyone who might try to take you down.
locustechpriest 08-13-07, 10:59 PM	Sorry for the double, different topic though Its also explains one, probably the original, way to become a lich. When you concentration reaches such epic levels that while you are performing a spell you body dies but you don't even realize it when it happens. So you become a lich as a result. When Jingleshod realized what his master was up to, the knight slew Wulgreth. Unfortunately, he did this while Wulgreth was casting his spell, and the arcane energies the archwizard had been drawing from the area were released, transforming Wulgreth into a lich and the area surrounding Karse into a place of twisted magic and undead creatures known as the Dire Wood. Death in the throes of spellcasting. He later created a phylactery (so as to reform on destruction, one would assume). Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. When capable of becoming a lich, you will probably be able to cast 6th level spells. Could dieing in the midst of casting one transform you, sans the phylactery?
bardwarrior 08-14-07, 12:05 AM	Any mean of immortality would surely turn you into an npc. And i don't know a games master who would deal with an invincible PC. They would find some stupid way around it and kill you.
Jamesks 08-14-07, 01:18 AM	One of my character's used the spell Steal Life from the Book of Vile Darkness to maintain her eternal youth. She had a small city under her control and at each full moon when the group was in town several of the serious criminal elements would be gathered up by the guards or by the party it's self, and she would punish them by stealing their life. It worked out well until the party was on an extended downtime to tend to the city, deal with envoys from other city-states, magic item creation, and the like. When we started the downtime I told the DM that at the first full moon I would drain -all- the murderers and like offenders, which was quite a few as the city was pretty rough. I had been playing my character as extremely nonobsevational and all but shut down to the outside world when casting spells, so the next day after I tell the DM that my character joins the others in the battle room, she says, "As you go to take a seat you look up from your spellbook as someone speaks and notice that the chair seem much larger then normal, in fact everything and everyone seems as if they are under the effects of the enlarge spell, and the gathered servants seem taken aback." I had forgotten to keep track of how many weeks I was stripping off and had reduced my age to eight. It lead my character to finally create a spell that would allow me to transfer the stolen life to other people that the rest of the party had been pestering her for.
Grogg Toth 08-14-07, 01:59 AM	To clarify for all readers: Undead are immortal til destroyed Constructs are immortal as most of them are not alive Non-native Outsiders are generally considered immortal as nothing says they die of old age, plus many are immortal ie. demons and devils. Fey... not sure, pretty sure most of them barring new sources like incarum, which I haven't read yet, are immortal... I think. Dragon Ascendent is a quasi-deity, not a god! Elementals though are outsiders are immortal... pretty sure on that... Elves are immortal, they age and do reach venerable age but anyone who has read any of the old AD&D books knows that elves only truly die through violence. If I have missed anything or mispoke drop me a line, I would like to make sure of somethings... oh before anyone mentions anything from Eberron, I'm not too familiar with it. E-mail me @ malkarii@hotmail.com and I'll get back to you. ^.^
Grogg Toth 08-14-07, 02:04 AM	Karsus. May he rest in peace. Two insurmountable problems face the followers-in-his-steps. 1) The details of the spell were utterly destroyed by a deity. (Essentially, it cannot be restored by mortal means, short of researching it all over again with the few clues we have.) 2) Magic beyond 9th level cannot be drawn from the Weave, either due to restrictions placed by Mystra, or simply the fact that it was split in two (Weave and Shadow Weave). Solutions? Recreate the spell. This is nearly impossible without the means to experiment, so you need access to 10th level magic and beyond. You need, assuming this is remotely possible, and additional source of (extreme) energy that can be interwoven with the Weave derived power. This may be able to allow use of spells effectively equivalent to the ancient 10th+ magic. Naturally, none of the surviving spells can be cast as they were, because of the necessary differences in the source of power. This new method of spellcasting alone will most likely require generations to perfect, not to mention the research needed to emulate the ancient magic. What to do now? Take the place of a lesser god (to avoid the fate of Karsus). Learn how to rework/cope with the responsibility of the new, lesser Weave, and develop your divine powers. Recast the New Karsus’s Avatar, and take control of the lesser Weave (now having the knowledge and power to repair it). Once you have attained sufficient knowledge of the rammifications of Karsus' Folly, reunite the broken Weave, and keep a close eye on anyone who might try to take you down. Strickly speaking the weave wasn't broken in two, Shar created the Shadow Weave. If my memory serves me faithfully... wait it doesn't... frick I can't remember the whole story, I read it twice... gonna have to do it again, I'll get back to you on this one.
vegetalss4 08-14-07, 02:16 AM	Elves are immortal, they age and do reach venerable age but anyone who has read any of the old AD&D books knows that elves only truly die through violence. the elves are no longer immortal thats why they got a maximum age in the phb.;)
one_eyed 08-14-07, 10:04 AM	am i the only one who thought of the line: "... the Grail cannot pass beyond the great seal, for that is the boundry, and the price of immortality.." - the knight from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
Balthanon 08-14-07, 10:36 AM	One of the more recent Dragon Magazines had a spell that allowed you to alter a magic item worth 2000 gold or more into an item that stopped you from aging. It cost 5000 XP I think, so immortality costs approximately 27,000 gold going off of that. (Plus the magic item slot, since you did need to wear the item afterwards and it lost all of its powers.) It wouldn't be too hard to lose it, but on the plus side, it didn't have the nasty side effect from the grey painting from that Oscar Wilde story. The one where destroying the item automatically returned all those unspent years to the possessor. Which I think is actually another way to gain immortality now that I think about it-- that one might have been in the Book of Vile Darkness, but I know I've seen stats for it somewhere.
DrMorganes 08-14-07, 10:57 AM	Um... It says it's possible, it just might twist your words. Like, you would become level 1 again, or turn into a baby, or something. But even then, few DMs are that cruel. o.O I'd say you're dead wrong on that one. Closer to the truth would be that most DMs are just exactly that cruel. Any wish within the spell's description is "safe" and shouldn't be futzed with. Any wish outside the clearly-defined limits of the spell is fair game. Wishing for immortality is definitely something I'd have a field day over :evillaugh Still, the point of immortality for a PC is rather moot. The striving for such a thing - even if it was never actually achieved - would build such a legend that the PC would, in essence, live forever. Success by failure. What DM doesn't appreciate such a paradox? ;)
TheDragonmaster 08-14-07, 11:14 AM	Aren't there a (epic or high-level, don't remember) spell in FR somwhere that lengthens your lifespan each time you kill someone with it?
Sul_Zain_Aserbet 08-14-07, 02:57 PM	Karsus. May he rest in peace. Two insurmountable problems face the followers-in-his-steps. 1) The details of the spell were utterly destroyed by a deity. (Essentially, it cannot be restored by mortal means, short of researching it all over again with the few clues we have.) 2) Magic beyond 9th level cannot be drawn from the Weave, either due to restrictions placed by Mystra, or simply the fact that it was split in two (Weave and Shadow Weave). Solutions? Recreate the spell. This is nearly impossible without the means to experiment, so you need access to 10th level magic and beyond. You need, assuming this is remotely possible, and additional source of (extreme) energy that can be interwoven with the Weave derived power. This may be able to allow use of spells effectively equivalent to the ancient 10th+ magic. Naturally, none of the surviving spells can be cast as they were, because of the necessary differences in the source of power. This new method of spellcasting alone will most likely require generations to perfect, not to mention the research needed to emulate the ancient magic. What to do now? Take the place of a lesser god (to avoid the fate of Karsus). Learn how to rework/cope with the responsibility of the new, lesser Weave, and develop your divine powers. Recast the New Karsus’s Avatar, and take control of the lesser Weave (now having the knowledge and power to repair it). Once you have attained sufficient knowledge of the rammifications of Karsus' Folly, reunite the broken Weave, and keep a close eye on anyone who might try to take you down. Karsus! Yes, that was his name... Hmmm... it would be almost impossible indeed to follow what he did for immortality. The only thing i can imagine offhand is to use Chronomancy to travel back to his time, but time travel to Karsus's age and the Empire of N::Cough/hack::al is incredibly restricted by Mystra. You'd have to find a way to sneak in there through the Temporal Prime somehow. Course, if your clever enough to do that you might as well cut your own lifeline and just become immortal that way. You could try to do what Finder Wyvernspur did. Defeat a sickly and forgotten god and usurp his powers. Thats possible for mortals. Or spend all your time exiled in a plane where you don't age.
Richmud 08-14-07, 04:23 PM	Karsus! Yes, that was his name... Well I'm not sure how much it would really help but it is still possible to talk to Karsus. He managed to obtain a sort of immortality as one of the vestiges in tome of magic. Which does bring up another way to become immortal, becoming a vestige. Of course that removes you from normal existence and prevents you from having true contact with the world except through binders. As for ways to become vestiges, well really ticking off a god seems to work, and Ipos's existence proves its possible to become one through research on the subject
Elyk 08-14-07, 09:50 PM	According to the BoVD pg 64, under the Mortal Hunter class, it states "mortal is a term meaning any creature that is not of the outsider, undead, construct or fey types" although I assume there are a few exceptions like "native" outsiders and some fey. So just become one of those.
locustechpriest 08-19-07, 01:59 PM	Any mean of immortality would surely turn you into an npc. And i don't know a games master who would deal with an invincible PC. They would find some stupid way around it and kill you. The lich template has a level adjustment of +4, indicating that it is suitable for player characters. So no, they would not "surely turn you into an NPC". Not unless you base that on the stupid DM... Elves are immortal, they age and do reach venerable age but anyone who has read any of the old AD&D books knows that elves only truly die through violence. Strickly speaking the weave wasn't broken in two, Shar created the Shadow Weave. If my memory serves me faithfully... wait it doesn't... frick I can't remember the whole story, I read it twice... gonna have to do it again, I'll get back to you on this one. It has been said, but anyone who has read any of the new 3.5 books knows that things have changed. :P The Shadow Weave was not *created* by Shar, it was claimed and controlled by her. I don't know it the Return of the Archmages series is cannonical, but that is, in essence, what it said.
ArcTan 08-19-07, 05:49 PM	Elves are immortal, they age and do reach venerable age but anyone who has read any of the old AD&D books knows that elves only truly die through violence. ...And anyone who's read any of the D&D 3e books knows this is no longer true.
Khadmus 08-19-07, 06:00 PM	I figure Elan or Necropolitan are the easiest routes, given what has been presented here. I have neither the XPH nor LM, so I can't really comment.
El_Machinae 08-22-07, 08:42 PM	am i the only one who thought of the line: "... the Grail cannot pass beyond the great seal, for that is the boundry, and the price of immortality.." - the knight from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade Meh. Lots of fiction tries to make immortality more amazing than it is. Immortality is mostly just about not dying