The +LA of an awakened camel? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The +LA of an awakened camel? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fairill
08-13-07, 06:52 AM I was wondering, since I'm dreadfully curious: Does anyone care to take a look at the Camel and, with basic '10' for it's intellectual statistics, say what +LA that camel would have for players?

They're strong, but they don't have hands.
They're large, but they don't have reach.
They have a natural weapon but it's always counted a 'offhand'.
They have three animal hit-dice, so with an LA of +0, it would have to be equal to a third level character.
Korone
08-13-07, 02:25 PM Awakened animals receive an additional two HD and change to magical beast.
Placing a LA on top of this would just be mean. Awakened animal do not have LA.
bobothechimp
08-13-07, 03:07 PM LA -
vardock
08-13-07, 10:03 PM They are not playable. no la is given. it must have a number, even +0.
also awakened animals as pc's can cause problems. As a veteran of the mature boards I know.
Korone
08-14-07, 08:39 AM And the cheesewayon return. :rolleyes:
As a lot say: You cannot play what WotC don't want you to play !
pres_man
08-14-07, 11:11 AM Well you could compare it to a wolf and worg (basically an awakened wolf). Worgs have a LA +1 (cohort), so not really appropriate for a player, but I think the LA +1 would be good enough.
Fairill
08-16-07, 04:06 AM What I meant was: If it was a playable race, what +LA would it have?

D&D is rather retarded when it comes to nonhumanoid playable races. In fact, it's heavily human-centric. There's humans, elves (stretched humans), dwarves (squashed humans), halflings (little humans), orcs (green humans), etc. Every single playable race is a weak human-ripoff. With things limited by imagination instead of computer programming like in computer games, how did we end up with such a one-sided selection of near-identical player races?

What kind of problems can awakened animals cause, Vardock? I've played in a group with an awakened wolf before and everything went fairly smoothly until the player got angry over something in Real Life and stopped playing. The biggest problem we had was ladders.

Base it on a Worg? Possible, but Worg actually have a primary attack. Camels only a secondary. I'll give it a bit of thought, though.
Korone
08-16-07, 12:09 PM Everything's playable. Only a lot of peoples doesn't understand it or simply refuse to.
As you said, DnD is retarded when it comes to nonhumanoid races, as most of everything is based on them and some DMs supports this, by being mentally constipated (unable to think/create adventures about such characters) or simply too lazy to do so.

There's nothing wrong with awakened animals. Unless immature players, as you stated, can't roleplay properly and understand that he's a freaking quadrupedal animal and the bonus and penalties that comes with it.

As for the Camel, it already do not have much bonus on the racial side, plus the awakened template slap on two more HD, or in other word, two more level to waste of class bonus.
No LA, unless you are playing with/are a mean and senseless DM.

-5 Racial HD.
So a minimum of 5 level out of class progression. Where you begin learning a class, your small human friend is already 6th level. Yep, you're late, by a lot.
Late of 5 level compared to any ECL 0 races with you.
-Nice speed
-An awesome natural armor of .... +1 !!
Not impressive at all, but it can be increased by taking feat.
-Large ! But no reach.
You can't attack farther. But more creatures can attack you at the same time since you have a larger base than medium creature.
-Good attack bonus.
That'll help, cause with 5 level behind in caster level, the only thing you'll be able to do is fight in melee.
-Two good saves.
Not bad, but some class offer better.
-Proficient with natural weapons only.
Meaning five level with your secondary bite attack unless you take one of your 2 feats for that.
-Non-proficient with armor.
See point above. Hope you have a high dex. Other than Padded armor, Leather armor or a masterwork Studded leather armor, there's nothing you can wear if you want to have a good chance to touch something in combat.
-Good racial ability modifier. +18 Total
I was hoping so, cause that's the only thing you get that look good.
-Low-Light vision and scent.
Pretty secondary, but nice nonetheless.

With all that, will you put an level adjustment ?
I hope not.
imakuni67
08-16-07, 02:57 PM No Endurance bonus feat?
Korone
08-17-07, 10:04 AM Camel do not have have bonus feat.
Its HDs gives it two feats: Alertness and Endurance
imakuni67
09-29-07, 02:03 PM An awakened camel would make a decent monk though, just get the monks belt to make up for your 5 HD of Magical Beast.

Question though, for skills would you calculate skills just for the two bonus hit die with your new intelligence or would you get skills for the animal HD that were convered as well?

I would really houserule that camels get Endurance as a bonus feat though, personally. They are freaking camels...
Xiuhcoatl
09-29-07, 03:12 PM Awakened animals, with the exception of awakened apes and monkeys, deserve no LA -- the built-in HD do much to balance them out.
Fairill
09-29-07, 07:13 PM The group of people suggesting a +LA of zero seems to be growing.

I was wondering.. has anyone considered looking at the CR system - it adjusts depending on wether the class taken is species-appropriate. Perhaps +LA would..

Egh, too complex and much messier than it needs to be!

I wonder if this is going to be entirely impossible in fourth edition..
zook1shoe666
09-30-07, 01:34 PM has anyone considered looking at the CR system

the CR system really has nothing to do with the LA of a monster.
Fairill
09-30-07, 01:56 PM the CR system really has nothing to do with the LA of a monster.

I didn't actually say that. I said that it adapts based on the class that is attached and wether it's appropriate or not.

A monk goes ideal with a strong, large creature, using it's abilities better than most other classes would.

If you focus entirely on the most abusable facet of a race then you will most likely come to the conclusion that it requires a high +LA simply based on what's possible with it in a single configuration that has nothing to do with the eventual character intended.
zook1shoe666
09-30-07, 02:44 PM I didn't actually say that. I said that it adapts based on the class that is attached and wether it's appropriate or not.

usually it doesn't change based on the class type, mainly just the class level.
imakuni67
09-30-07, 07:24 PM usually it doesn't change based on the class type, mainly just the class level.

You need to read on the associated and non-associated class levels, under adding class levels to monsters...

But you are right, CR is a horrible judge of LA or ECL. CR is a judge of encounter strength. You can best an incorporal creature in a few rounds of combat but having a player character able to go through walls and the like is too powerful.
zook1shoe666
10-01-07, 01:17 AM But you are right, CR is a horrible judge of LA or ECL. CR is a judge of encounter strength. You can best an incorporal creature in a few rounds of combat but having a player character able to go through walls and the like is too powerful.

thats more of what i meant...
Fairill
10-01-07, 02:44 AM What I meant is that you could look at that for inspiration as to indicating the +LA. That is, of course, unless the DM is willing to indicate a +LA without the assumption that the race is going to be used as a megamonk.
Argaud
10-01-07, 03:06 AM Although lacking hands is a big drawback, camels have superb physical abilities (+8 Str, +6 Dex and +4 Dex) and are large (+4 to many fighting maneuvers). I'd say at least a +1 LA is warranted.

The problem of lacking armor and weapon proficiencies vanishes once they have one class level.

More serious is the problem of lacking hands. This means most fighting classes and all spellcaster classes are out. However, they can still take levels in psionic classes. They can also be monks.

They can also be very dangerous as unarmed swordsages. Fear the kung-fu camels!
Fairill
10-01-07, 03:07 AM Kung-fu camels. Oh no, what monster has been created?!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fairill 08-13-07, 06:52 AM	I was wondering, since I'm dreadfully curious: Does anyone care to take a look at the Camel and, with basic '10' for it's intellectual statistics, say what +LA that camel would have for players? They're strong, but they don't have hands. They're large, but they don't have reach. They have a natural weapon but it's always counted a 'offhand'. They have three animal hit-dice, so with an LA of +0, it would have to be equal to a third level character.
Korone 08-13-07, 02:25 PM	Awakened animals receive an additional two HD and change to magical beast. Placing a LA on top of this would just be mean. Awakened animal do not have LA.
bobothechimp 08-13-07, 03:07 PM	LA -
vardock 08-13-07, 10:03 PM	They are not playable. no la is given. it must have a number, even +0. also awakened animals as pc's can cause problems. As a veteran of the mature boards I know.
Korone 08-14-07, 08:39 AM	And the cheesewayon return. :rolleyes: As a lot say: You cannot play what WotC don't want you to play !
pres_man 08-14-07, 11:11 AM	Well you could compare it to a wolf and worg (basically an awakened wolf). Worgs have a LA +1 (cohort), so not really appropriate for a player, but I think the LA +1 would be good enough.
Fairill 08-16-07, 04:06 AM	What I meant was: If it was a playable race, what +LA would it have? D&D is rather retarded when it comes to nonhumanoid playable races. In fact, it's heavily human-centric. There's humans, elves (stretched humans), dwarves (squashed humans), halflings (little humans), orcs (green humans), etc. Every single playable race is a weak human-ripoff. With things limited by imagination instead of computer programming like in computer games, how did we end up with such a one-sided selection of near-identical player races? What kind of problems can awakened animals cause, Vardock? I've played in a group with an awakened wolf before and everything went fairly smoothly until the player got angry over something in Real Life and stopped playing. The biggest problem we had was ladders. Base it on a Worg? Possible, but Worg actually have a primary attack. Camels only a secondary. I'll give it a bit of thought, though.
Korone 08-16-07, 12:09 PM	Everything's playable. Only a lot of peoples doesn't understand it or simply refuse to. As you said, DnD is retarded when it comes to nonhumanoid races, as most of everything is based on them and some DMs supports this, by being mentally constipated (unable to think/create adventures about such characters) or simply too lazy to do so. There's nothing wrong with awakened animals. Unless immature players, as you stated, can't roleplay properly and understand that he's a freaking quadrupedal animal and the bonus and penalties that comes with it. As for the Camel, it already do not have much bonus on the racial side, plus the awakened template slap on two more HD, or in other word, two more level to waste of class bonus. No LA, unless you are playing with/are a mean and senseless DM. -5 Racial HD. So a minimum of 5 level out of class progression. Where you begin learning a class, your small human friend is already 6th level. Yep, you're late, by a lot. Late of 5 level compared to any ECL 0 races with you. -Nice speed -An awesome natural armor of .... +1 !! Not impressive at all, but it can be increased by taking feat. -Large ! But no reach. You can't attack farther. But more creatures can attack you at the same time since you have a larger base than medium creature. -Good attack bonus. That'll help, cause with 5 level behind in caster level, the only thing you'll be able to do is fight in melee. -Two good saves. Not bad, but some class offer better. -Proficient with natural weapons only. Meaning five level with your secondary bite attack unless you take one of your 2 feats for that. -Non-proficient with armor. See point above. Hope you have a high dex. Other than Padded armor, Leather armor or a masterwork Studded leather armor, there's nothing you can wear if you want to have a good chance to touch something in combat. -Good racial ability modifier. +18 Total I was hoping so, cause that's the only thing you get that look good. -Low-Light vision and scent. Pretty secondary, but nice nonetheless. With all that, will you put an level adjustment ? I hope not.
imakuni67 08-16-07, 02:57 PM	No Endurance bonus feat?
Korone 08-17-07, 10:04 AM	Camel do not have have bonus feat. Its HDs gives it two feats: Alertness and Endurance
imakuni67 09-29-07, 02:03 PM	An awakened camel would make a decent monk though, just get the monks belt to make up for your 5 HD of Magical Beast. Question though, for skills would you calculate skills just for the two bonus hit die with your new intelligence or would you get skills for the animal HD that were convered as well? I would really houserule that camels get Endurance as a bonus feat though, personally. They are freaking camels...
Xiuhcoatl 09-29-07, 03:12 PM	Awakened animals, with the exception of awakened apes and monkeys, deserve no LA -- the built-in HD do much to balance them out.
Fairill 09-29-07, 07:13 PM	The group of people suggesting a +LA of zero seems to be growing. I was wondering.. has anyone considered looking at the CR system - it adjusts depending on wether the class taken is species-appropriate. Perhaps +LA would.. Egh, too complex and much messier than it needs to be! I wonder if this is going to be entirely impossible in fourth edition..
zook1shoe666 09-30-07, 01:34 PM	has anyone considered looking at the CR system the CR system really has nothing to do with the LA of a monster.
Fairill 09-30-07, 01:56 PM	the CR system really has nothing to do with the LA of a monster. I didn't actually say that. I said that it adapts based on the class that is attached and wether it's appropriate or not. A monk goes ideal with a strong, large creature, using it's abilities better than most other classes would. If you focus entirely on the most abusable facet of a race then you will most likely come to the conclusion that it requires a high +LA simply based on what's possible with it in a single configuration that has nothing to do with the eventual character intended.
zook1shoe666 09-30-07, 02:44 PM	I didn't actually say that. I said that it adapts based on the class that is attached and wether it's appropriate or not. usually it doesn't change based on the class type, mainly just the class level.
imakuni67 09-30-07, 07:24 PM	usually it doesn't change based on the class type, mainly just the class level. You need to read on the associated and non-associated class levels, under adding class levels to monsters... But you are right, CR is a horrible judge of LA or ECL. CR is a judge of encounter strength. You can best an incorporal creature in a few rounds of combat but having a player character able to go through walls and the like is too powerful.
zook1shoe666 10-01-07, 01:17 AM	But you are right, CR is a horrible judge of LA or ECL. CR is a judge of encounter strength. You can best an incorporal creature in a few rounds of combat but having a player character able to go through walls and the like is too powerful. thats more of what i meant...
Fairill 10-01-07, 02:44 AM	What I meant is that you could look at that for inspiration as to indicating the +LA. That is, of course, unless the DM is willing to indicate a +LA without the assumption that the race is going to be used as a megamonk.
Argaud 10-01-07, 03:06 AM	Although lacking hands is a big drawback, camels have superb physical abilities (+8 Str, +6 Dex and +4 Dex) and are large (+4 to many fighting maneuvers). I'd say at least a +1 LA is warranted. The problem of lacking armor and weapon proficiencies vanishes once they have one class level. More serious is the problem of lacking hands. This means most fighting classes and all spellcaster classes are out. However, they can still take levels in psionic classes. They can also be monks. They can also be very dangerous as unarmed swordsages. Fear the kung-fu camels!
Fairill 10-01-07, 03:07 AM	Kung-fu camels. Oh no, what monster has been created?!