The Level 1 Ogre Mage - Another look at playing monsters as characters in DND v3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Level 1 Ogre Mage - Another look at playing monsters as characters in DND v3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Carrion_Buffet
02-26-08, 10:44 PM After making my post on the level 1 Minotaur, I spent some time reading the forum. And I ran across a post where the author had a number of questions about a player running a ogre mage and the impact of LA and HD on him. I had planned a second post that would cover illustrate another monster as a playable race, but with a focus on a much higher ELC and address an issue with that. But since reading that post I thought I would change the monster to the Ogre Mage as it is close enough for the point I wish to make.

The Ogre Mage is another creature that would make for an interesting build and present the DM with a number of opportunities to open up new areas of a campaign world. First though I will present the break down of the Ogre Mage racial level advancement and then disclose the issue that need addressing if you will allow one in your campaign world.

As Listed in the Hypertext d20 srd: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm
Size/Type:Large Giant
Hit Dice:5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative:+4
Speed:40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class:18 (-1 size, +5 natural, +4 chain shirt), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple:+3/+12
Attack:Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3)
Full Attack:Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3)
Space/Reach:10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities:Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, spell resistance 19
Saves:Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +3
Abilities:Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17
Skills:Concentration +11, Listen +10, Spellcraft +10, Spot +10
Feats:Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative
Environment:Cold hills
Organization:Solitary, pair, or troupe (1-2 plus 2-4 ogres)
Challenge Rating:8
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment:Usually lawful evil
Advancement:By character class
Level Adjustment:+7

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—darkness, invisibility; 1/day— charm person (DC 14), cone of cold (DC 18), gaseous form, sleep (DC 14). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Flight (Su)
An ogre mage can cease or resume flight as a free action. While using gaseous form it can fly at its normal speed and has perfect maneuverability.
Change Shape (Su)
An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.
Regeneration (Ex)
Fire and acid deal normal damage to an ogre mage.

1st Level Ogre Mage
Stats: +2 Str, +1 Con/Cha
Hit points: 1d8
Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot
Skill Point: 8 + Int Bonus
Feats: 1
BAB: 1
Fort: 2
Ref: 0
Will: 0
Natural Armor: +1
Special Qualities: Regeneration 1, Darkvision, Low-light Vision
Special Attacks:

2nd Level Ogre Mage
Stats: +4 Str, +1 Int/Wis, +2 Con/Cha
Hit points: 2d8
Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot
Skill Point: 10 + Int Bonus (* 2)
Feats: 1
BAB: 1
Fort: 2
Ref: 0
Will: 0
Natural Armor: +2
Special Qualities: Regeneration 2, Darkvision, Low-light Vision
Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep

3rd Level Ogre Mage
Stats: +6 Str, +2 Int/Wis, +3 Con/Cha
Hit points: 3d8
Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot
Skill Point: 12 + Int Bonus (* 3)
Feats: 2
BAB: 2
Fort: 3
Ref: 1
Will: 1
Natural Armor: +3
Special Qualities: Regeneration 3, Darkvision, Low-light Vision
Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep, Darkness

4th Level Ogre Mage
Stats: +8 Str, +3 Int/Wis, +4 Con/Cha
Hit points: 4d8
Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot
Skill Point: 14 + Int Bonus (* 4)
Feats: 2
BAB: 2
Fort: 3
Ref: 1
Will: 1
Natural Armor: +4
Special Qualities: Regeneration 4, Darkvision, Low-light Vision
Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep, Darkness, Gaseous Form

5th Level Ogre Mage
Stats: Str +10, +4 Int/Wis, +6 Con/Cha
Hit points: 5d8
Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot
Skill Point: 16 + Int Bonus (* 5)
Feats: 2
BAB: 3
Fort: 4
Ref: 1
Will: 1
Natural Armor: +5
Special Qualities: Regeneration 5, Darkvision, Low-light Vision, Change Shape, Fly
Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep, Darkness, Gaseous Form, Cone of Cold, Invisibility

But....I'm allergic to dairy!
Now the one thing I have left off from the the above level descriptions is the level adjustment of +7. As we all know level adjust along with hit dice and class levels all count toward the Ogre Mage ECL.

If you are going to allow a Ogre Mage in a party. The Party needs to also realize that the OM will elevate the parties encounter level. If we look at a party of four characters of which the OM is one the party encounter level zooms up to 1+1+1+8/4 = 2.75 which we can round up to 3. A level 3 encounter will be very hard, if not deadly for a group of first level characters...well at least without adding a lot of cheese. A DM could simply adjust the encounters down to something more normal for the party level and things will be fine; At least until xp is calculated.

Speak softly and carry a big Level Adjustment!
Remember ECL is used to determine a few things such as party encounter level, experience gained per successful encounter, starting money and experience needed to gain next level. As I stated in the Level 1 minotaur that we are not using the last one (total xp needed to level). So the player does not stay at first level (with 1d8+con bonus hit points, BAB, saves, skill points, etc....) while the rest of the party advances. We also do not want the OM Character to have a total and overwhelming influence in the party and unbalances it. So we spread the many abilities of the OM over its five racial levels. So far this is close to the Minotaur build minus one racial level. But where the Minotaur only had a Level Adjustment of +2 the Ogre Mage has a whopping +7!

So we need to address this with the only sensible solution I can think of and that is to have an adjustable Level Adjustment. As the character advances through his racial level he will eventually obtain the +7 with full benefits of the OM. This works nicely as it better reflects the growing powers of the OM. So starting from 1st level Ogre Mage we would start with a Level Adjustment of +2. At 2nd Level it is raised to a +3, and so on until 5th level.
1st +2
2nd +3
3rd +4
4th +5
5th +7

What a player can expect from applying this method of running high level adjustment creatures as characters is they will end up being more in line with their +0 Level Adjusted party members. They should also expect to lag behind the players about 5 character levels or so. In the end the DM and player need to determine if a high LA creature is worth the special abilities and stat bonuses.

If the DM still thinks the OM is to powerful, suggest only allowing the spell like abilities to work on the character only.
gixanthrax
03-02-08, 03:43 PM One thing i don't understand:
why don't you just take a sharper look at savage species, and the way racial HD and LA are handled there?

Just add some dead levels to your monster level progression? or even out the bonussesover the levels more evenly?

Why not simply let it be a 12 level class called "ogre mage" where all12 levels have to be taken before you can take any class levels, and spread all the ability score boosts and special abilities over these 12 levels?

I know that 5d8 suck for 12 levels but, hey nobody is forced to play Mr. strong flying invisible blue large ugly....:D
runestar
03-02-08, 10:37 PM The ogre mage honestly seems very weak for its ECL. Looking at its current list of abilities, I rate them as worth no more than LA+4 (after factoring in its 5 giant HD), for a total ECL of 9.

The physical stats you get are good, but really little better than a typical ogre (ECL6). The SLAs are just 1/day, and sleep/charm person are pretty much worthless. Cone of cold does not scale either.

To make it a worthy PC, I would at least upgrade them to deep slumber and charm monster and make his 1/day SLAs usable 1/encounter. That or scrap all his SLAs and replace them with wiz9 casting.

Right now, the only thing he seems good for is casting invis on the whole party prior to each battle, then staying out of combat using flight while pelting away with arrows (which he is not that good with, because of his poor bab, large size and lack of dex). Darkness is hit or miss, depending on how well equipped the party is to deal with it. Your sr is almost worthless, you lack of the hp to tank (with regen being the only thing keeping you alive, but unconscious).

All in all, hardly PC worthy without a major overhaul, IMO.
Carrion_Buffet
03-10-08, 03:58 PM One thing i don't understand:
why don't you just take a sharper look at savage species, and the way racial HD and LA are handled there?

I have not seen the savage species and was taking the playable monster "as-is" and re-working the rules used on them in an attempt to make them more workable.

Just add some dead levels to your monster level progression? or even out the bonussesover the levels more evenly?
Not sure what you mean by dead levels, but the ability spred is setup like it is to reflect the growing LA. Doing it this way allows the player a chance to gain levels with the party and still be useful.

Why not simply let it be a 12 level class called "ogre mage" where all12 levels have to be taken before you can take any class levels, and spread all the ability score boosts and special abilities over these 12 levels?

I know that 5d8 suck for 12 levels but, hey nobody is forced to play Mr. strong flying invisible blue large ugly....:D

This goes to the heart of why I placed as much focus on this issue. Look at it from a practical point of view, 5HD are near worthless in a campaign where the human and elves, etc.. are running with 12 Class levels. To simply state "Hey no one made you play a Ogre Mage" is missing the point. Many of the monsters in the MM and related books allow for the players (DM permitting) to have that race as a playable option.
The problem is the ECL=Character Experience Level equation makes all but the low LA races unplayable, as stated by runestar. So the question I was working on is "How" to make the races more playable with out nerfing them and/or allowing them to over-power the party.

So the idea is this (use a party of 5th level as an example here)

ECL is only used to figure experience gained from encounters. using the DMG experience chart as normal.
Use the HD and Class Level to determine the experience need to go from one level to the next. Here we part from the norm...and treat the Ogre Mage as a normal character for the purpose of level advancement so the Ogre Mage is 5HD and is treated like a 5th level character. Once he gains 6th level of experience he can take his 1st class level
When starting from 1st allow monsters as characters to work and level through their racial levels as the other player work through class levels. Although the cone of cold is weak at higher level it would over power a 1st level encounter. So restrict the use of special attacks/qualaities at lower levels and allow the player to "mature" into the full feature set of their race. Since the player does not have access to the full racial abilities, reduce the LA at low levels and slide it up to full as the advance in HD.

Using a system like this (IMHO) removes the sever imbalance between a 5 HD monster and a character with 12 class levels but still lags the character behind the party so it does not over-power it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Carrion_Buffet 02-26-08, 10:44 PM	After making my post on the level 1 Minotaur, I spent some time reading the forum. And I ran across a post where the author had a number of questions about a player running a ogre mage and the impact of LA and HD on him. I had planned a second post that would cover illustrate another monster as a playable race, but with a focus on a much higher ELC and address an issue with that. But since reading that post I thought I would change the monster to the Ogre Mage as it is close enough for the point I wish to make. The Ogre Mage is another creature that would make for an interesting build and present the DM with a number of opportunities to open up new areas of a campaign world. First though I will present the break down of the Ogre Mage racial level advancement and then disclose the issue that need addressing if you will allow one in your campaign world. As Listed in the Hypertext d20 srd: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogreMage.htm Size/Type:Large Giant Hit Dice:5d8+15 (37 hp) Initiative:+4 Speed:40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (good) Armor Class:18 (-1 size, +5 natural, +4 chain shirt), touch 9, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple:+3/+12 Attack:Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3) Full Attack:Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+7/19-20) or longbow +2 ranged (2d6/×3) Space/Reach:10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks:Spell-like abilities Special Qualities:Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, spell resistance 19 Saves:Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +3 Abilities:Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17 Skills:Concentration +11, Listen +10, Spellcraft +10, Spot +10 Feats:Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative Environment:Cold hills Organization:Solitary, pair, or troupe (1-2 plus 2-4 ogres) Challenge Rating:8 Treasure: Double standard Alignment:Usually lawful evil Advancement:By character class Level Adjustment:+7 Spell-Like Abilities At will—darkness, invisibility; 1/day— charm person (DC 14), cone of cold (DC 18), gaseous form, sleep (DC 14). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Flight (Su) An ogre mage can cease or resume flight as a free action. While using gaseous form it can fly at its normal speed and has perfect maneuverability. Change Shape (Su) An ogre mage can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant. Regeneration (Ex) Fire and acid deal normal damage to an ogre mage. 1st Level Ogre Mage Stats: +2 Str, +1 Con/Cha Hit points: 1d8 Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot Skill Point: 8 + Int Bonus Feats: 1 BAB: 1 Fort: 2 Ref: 0 Will: 0 Natural Armor: +1 Special Qualities: Regeneration 1, Darkvision, Low-light Vision Special Attacks: 2nd Level Ogre Mage Stats: +4 Str, +1 Int/Wis, +2 Con/Cha Hit points: 2d8 Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot Skill Point: 10 + Int Bonus (* 2) Feats: 1 BAB: 1 Fort: 2 Ref: 0 Will: 0 Natural Armor: +2 Special Qualities: Regeneration 2, Darkvision, Low-light Vision Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep 3rd Level Ogre Mage Stats: +6 Str, +2 Int/Wis, +3 Con/Cha Hit points: 3d8 Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot Skill Point: 12 + Int Bonus (* 3) Feats: 2 BAB: 2 Fort: 3 Ref: 1 Will: 1 Natural Armor: +3 Special Qualities: Regeneration 3, Darkvision, Low-light Vision Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep, Darkness 4th Level Ogre Mage Stats: +8 Str, +3 Int/Wis, +4 Con/Cha Hit points: 4d8 Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot Skill Point: 14 + Int Bonus (* 4) Feats: 2 BAB: 2 Fort: 3 Ref: 1 Will: 1 Natural Armor: +4 Special Qualities: Regeneration 4, Darkvision, Low-light Vision Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep, Darkness, Gaseous Form 5th Level Ogre Mage Stats: Str +10, +4 Int/Wis, +6 Con/Cha Hit points: 5d8 Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot Skill Point: 16 + Int Bonus (* 5) Feats: 2 BAB: 3 Fort: 4 Ref: 1 Will: 1 Natural Armor: +5 Special Qualities: Regeneration 5, Darkvision, Low-light Vision, Change Shape, Fly Special Attacks: Charm Person, Sleep, Darkness, Gaseous Form, Cone of Cold, Invisibility But....I'm allergic to dairy! Now the one thing I have left off from the the above level descriptions is the level adjustment of +7. As we all know level adjust along with hit dice and class levels all count toward the Ogre Mage ECL. If you are going to allow a Ogre Mage in a party. The Party needs to also realize that the OM will elevate the parties encounter level. If we look at a party of four characters of which the OM is one the party encounter level zooms up to 1+1+1+8/4 = 2.75 which we can round up to 3. A level 3 encounter will be very hard, if not deadly for a group of first level characters...well at least without adding a lot of cheese. A DM could simply adjust the encounters down to something more normal for the party level and things will be fine; At least until xp is calculated. Speak softly and carry a big Level Adjustment! Remember ECL is used to determine a few things such as party encounter level, experience gained per successful encounter, starting money and experience needed to gain next level. As I stated in the Level 1 minotaur that we are not using the last one (total xp needed to level). So the player does not stay at first level (with 1d8+con bonus hit points, BAB, saves, skill points, etc....) while the rest of the party advances. We also do not want the OM Character to have a total and overwhelming influence in the party and unbalances it. So we spread the many abilities of the OM over its five racial levels. So far this is close to the Minotaur build minus one racial level. But where the Minotaur only had a Level Adjustment of +2 the Ogre Mage has a whopping +7! So we need to address this with the only sensible solution I can think of and that is to have an adjustable Level Adjustment. As the character advances through his racial level he will eventually obtain the +7 with full benefits of the OM. This works nicely as it better reflects the growing powers of the OM. So starting from 1st level Ogre Mage we would start with a Level Adjustment of +2. At 2nd Level it is raised to a +3, and so on until 5th level. 1st +2 2nd +3 3rd +4 4th +5 5th +7 What a player can expect from applying this method of running high level adjustment creatures as characters is they will end up being more in line with their +0 Level Adjusted party members. They should also expect to lag behind the players about 5 character levels or so. In the end the DM and player need to determine if a high LA creature is worth the special abilities and stat bonuses. If the DM still thinks the OM is to powerful, suggest only allowing the spell like abilities to work on the character only.
gixanthrax 03-02-08, 03:43 PM	One thing i don't understand: why don't you just take a sharper look at savage species, and the way racial HD and LA are handled there? Just add some dead levels to your monster level progression? or even out the bonussesover the levels more evenly? Why not simply let it be a 12 level class called "ogre mage" where all12 levels have to be taken before you can take any class levels, and spread all the ability score boosts and special abilities over these 12 levels? I know that 5d8 suck for 12 levels but, hey nobody is forced to play Mr. strong flying invisible blue large ugly....:D
runestar 03-02-08, 10:37 PM	The ogre mage honestly seems very weak for its ECL. Looking at its current list of abilities, I rate them as worth no more than LA+4 (after factoring in its 5 giant HD), for a total ECL of 9. The physical stats you get are good, but really little better than a typical ogre (ECL6). The SLAs are just 1/day, and sleep/charm person are pretty much worthless. Cone of cold does not scale either. To make it a worthy PC, I would at least upgrade them to deep slumber and charm monster and make his 1/day SLAs usable 1/encounter. That or scrap all his SLAs and replace them with wiz9 casting. Right now, the only thing he seems good for is casting invis on the whole party prior to each battle, then staying out of combat using flight while pelting away with arrows (which he is not that good with, because of his poor bab, large size and lack of dex). Darkness is hit or miss, depending on how well equipped the party is to deal with it. Your sr is almost worthless, you lack of the hp to tank (with regen being the only thing keeping you alive, but unconscious). All in all, hardly PC worthy without a major overhaul, IMO.
Carrion_Buffet 03-10-08, 03:58 PM	One thing i don't understand: why don't you just take a sharper look at savage species, and the way racial HD and LA are handled there? I have not seen the savage species and was taking the playable monster "as-is" and re-working the rules used on them in an attempt to make them more workable. Just add some dead levels to your monster level progression? or even out the bonussesover the levels more evenly? Not sure what you mean by dead levels, but the ability spred is setup like it is to reflect the growing LA. Doing it this way allows the player a chance to gain levels with the party and still be useful. Why not simply let it be a 12 level class called "ogre mage" where all12 levels have to be taken before you can take any class levels, and spread all the ability score boosts and special abilities over these 12 levels? I know that 5d8 suck for 12 levels but, hey nobody is forced to play Mr. strong flying invisible blue large ugly....:D This goes to the heart of why I placed as much focus on this issue. Look at it from a practical point of view, 5HD are near worthless in a campaign where the human and elves, etc.. are running with 12 Class levels. To simply state "Hey no one made you play a Ogre Mage" is missing the point. Many of the monsters in the MM and related books allow for the players (DM permitting) to have that race as a playable option. The problem is the ECL=Character Experience Level equation makes all but the low LA races unplayable, as stated by runestar. So the question I was working on is "How" to make the races more playable with out nerfing them and/or allowing them to over-power the party. So the idea is this (use a party of 5th level as an example here) ECL is only used to figure experience gained from encounters. using the DMG experience chart as normal. Use the HD and Class Level to determine the experience need to go from one level to the next. Here we part from the norm...and treat the Ogre Mage as a normal character for the purpose of level advancement so the Ogre Mage is 5HD and is treated like a 5th level character. Once he gains 6th level of experience he can take his 1st class level When starting from 1st allow monsters as characters to work and level through their racial levels as the other player work through class levels. Although the cone of cold is weak at higher level it would over power a 1st level encounter. So restrict the use of special attacks/qualaities at lower levels and allow the player to "mature" into the full feature set of their race. Since the player does not have access to the full racial abilities, reduce the LA at low levels and slide it up to full as the advance in HD. Using a system like this (IMHO) removes the sever imbalance between a 5 HD monster and a character with 12 class levels but still lags the character behind the party so it does not over-power it.