Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sphyre 09-23-04, 04:47 AM	It's come to my attention that people are responding to the original post. While that is perfectly fine, the project is already under way. Please feel free to take the time to read up on where this project currently is. For your convenience I will post links to the important posts in this project if you are new to it. Post 19 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4464934&postcount=19) - Direction and Format Post 27 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4472847&postcount=27) - Brainstorming Class Ability boosts with the Racial classes. Post 38 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4475943&postcount=38) - Discussion of Special case races and how they would apply with Class Ability boosts Post 68 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4551802&postcount=68) - Bias on racial abilities with the addition of Class Ability boosts Post 73 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4561725&postcount=73) - Haldrik's take on valuing racial abilities Post 87 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4607932&postcount=87) - Update on hitdice and racial ability progression. Post 110 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4615875&postcount=110) - Current update on progress. Post 154 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4642961&postcount=154) - Revised Class Boost Ideas: More ideas appriciated Post 193 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10961526&postcount=193) - Sphyre Returns and comments on his absence and direction of the LA Removal Project The Process and Progress of the project Phase I: Setup and Design - In Progress Phase II: Defining streamlined format for posting Phase III: Progressions Creation for LA monsters Phase IV: Brainstorm ideas for existing PC races progressions Phase V: Progression creation for PC races Phase VI: Finalization and balancing of Progressions Phase VII: Adding additional races not included in the PhB & MM - will be an ongoing project Do note that the original post is somewhat obsolete because of choices that have been made since it's posting and will probably be removed and simplified in the future. The Project as it started: The D&D level system is designed so that the addition of a level gives always gives you 1 hit die. Depending on that level in race and/or class you get BAB progression, skill points, HP, possible spell casting progression, and many other hitdice dependant mechanics. As a way to "balance" more powerful races with lesser races in the racial bonus department WotC came up with the Level adjustment system. It treats you as a certain number of levels higher for gaining experience. Not only does it do that, but you are effectively a higher level character because you are more challenging to defeat. This means someone of a certain race with a level adjustment who is just as strong of a caster as someone who lacks the level adjustment will always be "a larger challenge" than another, even if that difference is minimal. Unearthed Arcana does touch on this with the level adjustment buyoff. While it's a quick fix to what already is a quick fix system, it doesn't address the inherent problem with Level Adjustments: The inherent problem with Level Adjustments: Level adjustments cost you hitdice. This costs BAB, Skill points, Feats, HP, and give you a vunerability to anything that targets hitdice. Level adjustments cost you 1000 exp per level per level adjustment over going a race with no level adjustment. The math just works out so you pay 1000 exp per level you gain per level adjustment. The buyoff is inconsistent and breaks down when you compared level adjusted creatures to non-level adjusted creatures, and make high level adjusted creatures even harder to level. Another problem with the Level Adjustment system is the complete lack of synergy with casters. A poorly built human caster will always beat out very well built level adjusted caster. Why? because the human caster doesn't give up basically everything that casters rely on to get 90% of things (basically anything not a caster stat) that have absolutely no synergy with casting. The Level Adjustment system, as written is a deterrent to playing non-PC races. I don't know about you, but I want a fair system where I can play a human if i want, or a drow if I want without being surpassed by every single human of "equal power." Does all this mean that the level adjustment system as written does not work as is? No, it most certainly doesn't. It does work... just not to my liking. I'd like to be able to play a viable caster of a different race, or a viable anything character without completely dying to things that have effects based on hitdice. Something that's balanced so I would be able to play a character of a different race without being completely overshadowed by that player who's playing a human commoner. The Level Adjustment Removal Project: The system I'm proposing is a radical change from the current level adjustment system. As opposed to just tacking on some hitdice and/or level adjustment to "call it even." I'm designing a system that allows players to customize their characters of their race to fit their character concept without nerfing all of their other character abilities. The system is built in such a way that's similar to the racial paragon system in unearthed arcana, but at the same time I'm somewhat leaning towards Haldrik's Paragon System in construction. Basically I have two ideas... and i'm not sure which to go through with yet, and anyone interested in the system, I think a community project could work well too, esspecially with how much balancing and work it would require. The Progression Method: Instead of existing level adjustments and hitdice, everything is given a racial progression. When you first pick your race, you have racial abilities that are on par with all other LA +0 races. Then each race has levels that only members of that race can take. As you progress in levels of that race you gain more of their racial abilities and they become stronger until eventually you are just as strong as a naturally occuring person of your race. This system is not particularly bound to current HD/LA caps. It would be what would be balanced in power with the normal level progression. This system allows you to take say.. 2 levels of a race and gain some abilities of that race and then go into cleric. Or if you're a wizard of that race you could take no levels in the race and take the barebones benefits of that race and be a pure wizard without taking a hit on your caster level, your hp, bab, skills, etc. You would also be in every way scaled up with other LA +0 races, making you no more or less powerful than a human wizard of your Level (ECL) This system is much like the racial paragon system of Unearthed Arcana. The Drawback of this is those involved need to make a balanced progression for every new race that ever comes out. The Racial Trait Buy System: This system works very similar to the Progression Method but upon attaining a level in your race you don't gain fixed bonuses, but rather every single ability is given a price. You gain a certain amount of race points that you buy your racial abilities with. The racial abilities are limited to that of the race you are, so you could not choose Darkvision when you gain your first level in your race if that race does not have Darkvision. If you were a Centaur, for example the large size would cost you a certain amount of points, and the natural armor, the natural attacks, and such. If you don't spend your points when you level you can save them for next left too, and they roll over. This system is much like Haldrik's Paragon Class system, but requires finding a point value for everything and then assigninig it a value to every point. Not to mention in also must assign minimum level to certain abilities such as the Mind Flayer' Mind Blast. Note: The closest things these would have to the savage species progressions are the fact that at lower levels you don't get it all. The system is designed to Remove level adjustments completely and your ECL will always equal your hitdice with this system. This will create races that have more AND less total hitdice, LA and/or ECL than is currently published. I'm fully expecting an overall drop is ECL for monsterous races along with adding progressions to current LA +0 races to keep them competitive with monsterous races. This project is an attempt to balance monsterous races with current player races, and remove the bias for current player races. I know I'm going to do this system, I'm just not sure how to go about it yet. Are there any people interested in this project as well? I'm sure with a community effort we could really come up with some better ideas than me taking on this monsterous idea (no pun intended) on my own. Comments/Suggestions/Interest in Contributing? Lets make this happen! -Sphyre Please note that I DO know about savage species, I do know about bloodlines, i do know about unearthed arcana, I do know about arcana unearthed's racial paragons, I do know about LA buy off I do know about uncle joe's crab shack on the corner of 75th street and Route 34... This project is not a quick fix, nor do I like any of the quick fixes such as XP debt. The goal here is to make a level 1 character = level 1 character and a level 20 character = level 20 character. Any more posts about such "quick fixes" that don't address the inherent problems of LAs may cause mental trauma in the creator of this post... and you'll just have that guilt! :devil:
Sphyre 09-23-04, 04:48 AM	(Reserved for Finished Product) (... if we get there ;))
Sphyre 09-23-04, 04:52 AM	(Reserved for Finished Product)
DM Zoc 09-23-04, 02:02 PM	The Level Adjustment system, as written is a deterrent to playing non-PC races. I believe that this was the point. Races are always balanced such that the Level Adjustment makes normal races a better choice for any task. Rather, it was designed so that you can play a funny race, but that a funny race will never do anything better than a normal race; this is to limit powergaming.
Sphyre 09-23-04, 05:22 PM	That's exactly why This project is an attempt to balance monsterous races with current player races, and remove the bias for current player races. I agree with you, that that's why it was made. And for a streamlined product it's a good idea.... but my games aren't streamlined. I like balance as opposed to biasing Humans, Dwarves and Elves. That's the reason for this project - giving an alternate LA system that works allowing players to play a character of a different race and be no more or less powerful than the human/dwarf/elf/halforc etc equivilent. It's not really questioning why level adjustments were made, but rather developing the system so it's balanced as opposed to the current biased system. With the addition of other viable races it adds a lot more variety and flavor to the world without players hitting themselves for having a race with a level adjustment because they simply can't even reach upto par with a human commoner of the same ECL. Although... only about 100 people have read the post to this point... When more read it i'm sure i'll get some replies. *** I thought of a neat idea for my system. Half-races can progress in either or both races they are of. Half elves then have some reason to be played and same with Half-orcs. Templates such as half-dragons are made into a progression where you don't get anything until you take levels in it. (If you're a dragon diciple, you automatically gain all the levels in Half-Dragon for example)
Cymraegmorgan 09-23-04, 05:35 PM	I believe that this was the point. Races are always balanced such that the Level Adjustment makes normal races a better choice for any task. Rather, it was designed so that you can play a funny race, but that a funny race will never do anything better than a normal race; this is to limit powergaming. I have to agree. Don't try to fix what ain't broken.
Sphyre 09-23-04, 06:00 PM	Does all this mean that the level adjustment system as written does not work as is? No, it most certainly doesn't. It does work... just not to my liking. What does that imply? It implies that it works, but it isn't perfect. You, sir, are entitled to your opinion and choice of gaming, but I am entitled to my own as well. I'm sure there are others that agree with you, as others agree with me. The very fact of that shows that it's a preference, if you don't want to participate in the Level Adjustment Removal Project, you are not obligated to. So, in my eyes, LA is a poor fix. It's a fix none-the-less, but it doesn't offer balance. LA is broken is the aspect that it imbalances characters of different races. Racial bias is a broken mechanism. I don't intend on defending my position all day though, I would appriciate constructive ideas to help grow the project as opposed to those who are content with the LA system as is. This is a thread for those who want balanced races, not those who are content with the system as is. Who knows, with the system I'm cooking up, you may very well enjoy your games more if you tried it. If you haven't read the entire post, you might find that you like the idea more than the current LA system. ...so if we're past all of the negative ideas now, I'd very much appriciate positive ideas!
Carnios 09-23-04, 06:29 PM	Your idea is a GREAT idea, don't let these people that always play by the book tell you different. I have always tried to place unique characters, but it never seems to work out well because of LA, and i am not as skilled in my class as normal humans are. The ideas you propose still have these same restrictions. You STILL have to take levels away from levels that could be taken for your class(making you weaker in this class, but stronger in other areas). Your ideas are good, but they still do not fix the problem i have with LA. I'm not really sure a perfect way to fix this. Another possible solution, make them like bloodline, where u have to take a lvl every so often, etc.
questionc 09-23-04, 07:53 PM	Let me start by admitting that I happen to find the current LA system to be more or less balanced (admittedly, I've only run the numbers on 2 Monstrous races), but I do agree that in the case of casters, the penalty of LA isn't easy to accept, and the LA advantages disappear in games with inflated stats. Anyhow, some comments on your current ideas... Given the choice between The Progression Method and The Racial Trait Buy System, I would strongly reccoment The Progression Method. This is because if you aren't very careful with the Point Buy System, then you run the risk of decoupling things that inherently go together. For example, Large Size is inherently tied to improved Strength and Natural Armor, and probably shouldn't be decoupled if possible. Furthermore, point-based systems have a habit of imbalance, and don't really have any way of keeping track of context... special powers can be better or worse depending on the other powers one has. If you use a progression, you can give certain races their signature abilities earlier since they will be decoupled from other skills that can be exploited in conjunction. Secondly... I feel that you can't really make LA +0 equivalents for some of the races. For example, I don't think there's really any way to make a LA +0 creature that's large, and there isn't any way to make an Ogre that's not large. You could say that 'large-ness' is part of their racial progression I suppose... but now you have to deal with the fact that the character grew about 50% between adventures. From a balance perspective, gaining a feature like size might work. From a storytelling perspective... it's absurdly dumb. Anyhow, I hope that was constructive to you.
thinkhard 09-23-04, 08:04 PM	Your idea is a GREAT idea, don't let these people that always play by the book tell you different. I have always tried to place unique characters, but it never seems to work out well because of LA, and i am not as skilled in my class as normal humans are. The ideas you propose still have these same restrictions. You STILL have to take levels away from levels that could be taken for your class(making you weaker in this class, but stronger in other areas). Your ideas are good, but they still do not fix the problem i have with LA. I'm not really sure a perfect way to fix this. Another possible solution, make them like bloodline, where u have to take a lvl every so often, etc. I think it does fix the problems because you still gain hit-die and progress levels at the same rate as everyone else. To me, that removes the real issues of LA. The point of a LA is to cut back on your class abilities so you can't be better than everyone else, and by allowing you to still gain hit-die and experience as normal it keeps everything balanced.
Sphyre 09-23-04, 10:39 PM	Thank you for the constructive comments, I appriciate them :) The ideas you propose still have these same restrictions. You STILL have to take levels away from levels that could be taken for your class(making you weaker in this class, but stronger in other areas). The inherent problem with that is that if you allow a race to be played with those better abilities without a cost associated with them it causes imbalance. If you balance every class to have a respective +0 Level adjustment template then you (such as Medium Troll without regeneration and lesser stats etc, as opposed to as written) then all races become playable. Then the cost for those abilities are given by taking levels in that race that grant hitdice. This removes the portions of the Level Adjustment system that I have an issue with. If you have any other issues with it, please do voice them - I might not have seen them. For example, I'm considering the fact that every 3rd hitdie (subject to change and balancing, so it may be like every other hit die) you have a "Scaling Skill" This basically allows you to advance one class feature that scales with class level as if you had gained another level in that classe. For example: Race X has 3 levels of wizard and 3 levels of Race X. He can then treat that third level of Race X as a +1 existing class level for purposes of spells per day/known. Conversely a 3rd level wizard 6 level race X would be able to advance his wizard level by 2 for purposes of when he gains bonus metamagic/item creation feats. On another example since sneak attack for rogues increases every other, every 6 levels in your race you'd be able to increase your sneak attack by +1d6. It's just an idea I'm thinking of... to make taking the race levels a little more of an option. Given the choice between The Progression Method and The Racial Trait Buy System, I would strongly reccoment The Progression Method. This is because if you aren't very careful with the Point Buy System, then you run the risk of decoupling things that inherently go together. For example, Large Size is inherently tied to improved Strength and Natural Armor, and probably shouldn't be decoupled if possible. Furthermore, point-based systems have a habit of imbalance, and don't really have any way of keeping track of context... special powers can be better or worse depending on the other powers one has. If you use a progression, you can give certain races their signature abilities earlier since they will be decoupled from other skills that can be exploited in conjunction. I see. In that case, if I were to go with the Racial Trait Buy system, you may have to buy the increased size/str/nat armor all at once on a level... making you weaker at lower levels... more points for the Progression Method. Secondly... I feel that you can't really make LA +0 equivalents for some of the races. For example, I don't think there's really any way to make a LA +0 creature that's large, and there isn't any way to make an Ogre that's not large. You could say that 'large-ness' is part of their racial progression I suppose... but now you have to deal with the fact that the character grew about 50% between adventures. From a balance perspective, gaining a feature like size might work. From a storytelling perspective... it's absurdly dumb. I would definately make large size something you attain above first level. It doesn't seem any more rediculous than the age categories for dragons. I see it more as somewhat how the half-orge works. You're very large for a medium creature, but you still are bound by the benefits and penalties of being medium sized mechanic-wise. Maybe even without the powerful build ability. Regardless, you may only increase 10-15% in size but you broke the threshold of the medium/large difference, and that's what it represents. Natural growth. *** What the system doesn't remove is the fact that when you take all the levels to gain the full capacity of your race the fact that you could have taken class levels with those levels - which means your sneak attack will never be as high as a humans unless you never take levels in your race. It's the tradeoff and choice every character makes - but you're never forced to take levels in your race. If anyone has an interest in being an ongoing part of the project feel free to subscribe to this thread. But those who pass by to give their 2 cents will be considered too.
Vintar 09-23-04, 11:08 PM	One thing you might want is have classes get slight bonuses as you take levels in a race whose favored class is said race. For example - if you were to split tiefling into 3 levels (need more levels than current LA if they get hit dice, BAB etc.)- after the third they get +1d6 to sneak attacks. Or Aasamairs get a smite evil. Hobgoblins get a fighter-based feat etc.(Not sure if these examples would be balanced - just examples.) Flavorwise it seems to me as if the more powerful races tend even more towards certain professions, even though they could be good at others with their stat bonuses. Like tieflings make great rangers (bonus to Int always good - Dex helps with accuracy with bows), but in fluff they are never seen as such. This would also lead to any tieflings who do become rangers emphasizing the sneaky part - especially early on as +1d6 damage is pretty significant early on. Just my $0.02. (written out on barely legible check)
Kkat 09-23-04, 11:28 PM	I like your ideas. Let me start by saying that I find the current LA system to be completely broken. For all the reasons you speak of, and more. The very core idea has serious problems (sets of abilities rarely break down to being worth exactly X-number of levels, loss of levels in some classes such as spellcasters is far more crippling than others such as the fighter, the XP value of a level loss increases at higher levels while the value of special abilities decreases, etc). And even if the core idea was solid, WotC has never been able to impliment it in a reasonable fashion. (For example: the vampire template is +8 LA. This means that, according to the WotC mindset, a 1st level vampire is equal to a 9th level fighter... even though she only has 12 hit points.) I am very much for any effort to remove the Level Adjustment system and find a better method of balancing powerful races. Your ideas are very good. The Progression concept even has precident within D&D. Compare it to some of the templates such as the half-celestial, which have abilities gained according to level. There is no reason other extremely powerful races cannot have a similar design. Another method would be a Experience Point Debt system. This is what I use for some of the PC races I have designed unique to my homebrew world. Instead of a Level Adjustment, which is worth 1000 experience points if building a first level character-- but 9,000 if building a 10th level character-- I simply administer a flat 1000 XP "debt" which must be paid off before the character can apply XP towards advancement. This system, you will note, is not that different than a spellcaster spending XP to make magic items... appropriate, I feel, since you are effectively paying to be a magic item. --Kkat
Sphyre 09-23-04, 11:36 PM	Vintar, I don't quite agree that all since you're getting BAB skills/hp etc that it needs to be greater than the level adjustment. It needs to be in line with other races and Class levels - not the old LA system that biased PC races over monsterous races. The current LA system makes players overpay for everything. While the planetouched may be 2 classes long (and perhaps add some more to it to increase their racial abilities, like improving their smite etc) it doesn't mean that every 1 LA = X class levels, esspecially when you consider there are already hitdice on those creatures. As a preliminary thing to creating the progressions I'm compiling a list of races from the Monster Manual along with their type(because it influences BAB, HP, Skills etc gained) and post them on here with my feeling of what would be a balanced number of levels for all the abilities to be spread across. Then other readers can compile their opinions and we can pool it all together to see what would be a balanced number of levels to have as a target number of levels to make the progressions on. Also I'll have the PC races in there with ideas for progressions for those to keep them competitive with the new races (like if you take additional classes of human you can get +1 to a stat of your choice at certain levels and bonus feats at different intervals etc)
Vintar 09-23-04, 11:46 PM	I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to say that What is now +1 LA must be 3 levels of race! Merely that there wouldn't be a direct corrilation of +1 LA = 1 race level, and that it would tend to lean higher than it is now: especially if you used my suggestion from my previous post of watered down class abilities for some races. I'm sure that there should be a few exceptions to this rule.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-23-04, 11:52 PM	'Because we don't want you playing it' is not a proper reason. This game should be as playable with a medusa paladin as it is with a halfling rogue. However, it is exceedingly difficult to properly balance the raw power of a creature with the raw power of a class. Monsters were designed around the idea that they'd have to fight 4 people, of level = CR and win 50% of the time. I will watch this thread very closely and see what I can contribute.
Sphyre 09-23-04, 11:53 PM	Another method would be a Experience Point Debt system. This is what I use for some of the PC races I have designed unique to my homebrew world. Instead of a Level Adjustment, which is worth 1000 experience points if building a first level character-- but 9,000 if building a 10th level character-- I simply administer a flat 1000 XP "debt" which must be paid off before the character can apply XP towards advancement. This system, you will note, is not that different than a spellcaster spending XP to make magic items... appropriate, I feel, since you are effectively paying to be a magic item. First of all, arigato, I appriciate your words of praise. Although that does make sense in comparison to the magic item creation system, it poses about the same problem as the UA buyoff. Eventually, you are on ever ground EXP-wise with someone else - yet superior. While it works short term, long term it loses it's semblance of balance. It's even been debated that the Wizard Item creation feats tend to give him cheaper items making him stronger for his level, while making him drop behind a bit in exp. At those points the lower level Wizard gains exp faster than his allies and arguably is just as effective because his wealth exceeds that of the rest of the party. I don't like the idea that you can just "pay exp" to balance it. It increases the inherent problem of level 12 is not level 12 is not level 12 that D&D has. Level 12 SHOULD be level 12 which SHOULD be Level 12, and thusly that's my attempt to make a mechanic should be in line with the ideals i set forth, as not to contradict myself. *** I do like the idea that vintar said though... Without doing away with favored classes, perhaps every other level of a racial level can either 1) have a racial feature that emulates the class feature or 2) stacks with the favored class for purposes of it's abilities.
Carnios 09-24-04, 12:20 AM	The problem with taking levels is that you miss the chance to be a strong class(very apparent for wiz's, etc). I like the idea of -1000 xp debt per LA(UA presents this very well, u take a bunch of -'s, including -1 attack per 1k debt) it makes it so you can eventually become just as strong as a normal race, it just takes u longer to get there, instead of it taking u just as much exp as to lvl up in ur class. i will also try to watch this thread & contribute.
Sphyre 09-24-04, 02:09 AM	Assuming the Progression method (Which seems to be the best idea) At this phase I'm just listing all the creatures that will be done in this phase (I did say this was a project, it is more complicated and more work than the level adjustment system as is). If anyone has any idea on the process to go about this project I'm all open ears. I have three ideas thusfar. Step by step: We all go through and propose progressions for races in order, together. After it's done I post it to the reserved space above. Calling Races: If anyone feels like they have a good idea for a racial progression, they can say "I'm doing Race A, B, C and X" They post them, and discuss changes and then we finalize in and i put it in the reserved space Combination: Perhaps we can run a combination of the two. In balancing the races they should be balanced in such a way that they gradually show the abilities, but not overstep the bounds of balance. For example: in balancing a troll - one wouldn't get the regeneration ability until rather late. At LA+0 The troll could be medium sized and heal 1 hp per hour, as opposed to waiting to rest. One could see it having fast healing 1 at say 3rd or 4th level, or something like the the fast healing from the 3.0 forsaker where it caps per day, to later be replaced with that regeneration. This would make a troll cleric be trollish - but not have the full effectiveness of regeneration unless he took all the levels in troll to get to it. Non-cohort Creatures with existing Level Adjustments in the Monster Manual: Angel, Astral Deva - Outsider Aranea - Magical Beast Archon, Lantern - Outsider Archon, Hound - Outsider Archon, Trumpet - Outsider Athach - Aberration Azer - Outsider Bugbear - Humanoid Celestial (Template) - Special Centaur - Monsterous Humanoid Couatl - Outsider Demon, Dretch - Outsider Demon, Hezrou - Outsider Demon, Succubus - Outsider Demon, Vrock - Outsider Derro - Monsterous Humanoid Devil, Bearded Devil (Barbazu) - Outsider Devil, Chain Devil (Kyton) - Outsider Devil, Erinyes - Outsider Displacer Beast - Magical Beast Doppelganger - Humanoid Drider - Abberation Dwarf, Duergar - Humanoid Dwarf, Deep Dwarf - Humanoid Eladrin, Bralani - Outsider Elf, Drow - Humanoid Elf, Grey Elf - Humanoid Elf, Wild Elf - Humanoid Elf, Wood Elf - Humanoid Ettercap - Aberration Ettin - Giant Fiendish Creature (Template) - Special Gargoyle - Monsterous Humanoid Genie, Djinni - Outsider Genie, Janni - Outsider Ghost (Template) - Undead Giant, Hill Giant - Giant Giant, Frost Giant - Giant Giant, Stone Giant - Giant Githyanki - Humanoid Githzerai - Humanoid Gnoll - Humanoid Gnome, Forest Gnome - Humanoid Gnome, Svirfneblin - Humanoid Goblin - Humanaoid Grimlock - Monsterous Humanoid Half Celestial (Template) - Outsider Half Dragon (Template) - Dragon Half Fiend (Template) - Outsider Halfling, Tallfellow - Humanoid Harpy - Monsterous Humanoid Hobgoblin - Humanoid Inevitable, Zelekhut - Construct Kobold - Humanoid Krenshar - Magical Beast Kuo-Toa - Humanoid Lamia - Magical Beast Lammasu - Magical Beast Lich - Undead Lillend - Outsider Lizardfolk - Humanoid Locathah - Humanoid Lycanthrope, Werebear - Humanoid Lycanthrope, Wereboar - Humanoid Lycanthrope, Wererat - Humanoid Lycanthrope, Weretiger - Humanoid Lycanthrope, Werewolf - Humanoid Lycanthrope, Dire Wereboar - Humanoid Merfolk - Humanoid Mindflayer - Aberration Minotaur - Monsterous Humanoid Nymph - Fey Ogre - Giant Ogre Mage - Giant Orc - Humanoid Planetouched, Aasimar - Outsider Planetouched, Tiefling - Outsider Psuedodragon - Dragon Rakshasa - Outsider Sahuagin - Monsterous Humanoid Salamander, Flamebrother - Outsider Salamander, Average - Outsider Satyr - Fey Shambling Mound - Plant Skum - Aberration Slaad, Red - Outsider Slaad, Blue - Outsider Slaad, Green - Outsider Slaad, Gray - Outsider Sprite, Grig - Fey Sprite, Nixie - Fey Sprite, Pixie - Fey Treant - Plant Triton - Outsider Troglodyte - Humanoid Troll - Giant Vampire (Template) - Undead Xill - Outsider Yuan-ti, Pureblood - Monsterous Humanoid Yuan-ti, Halfblood - Monsterous Humanoid Yuan-ti, Abombination - Monsterous Humanoid Player Races: Human Dwarf Elf Gnome Half-elf Half-orc Halfling Basically when a creature gains a level in it's race it gains the appropriate hitdie, BAB, saves and skill points. Traits are attained as more levels in the race are gained - meaning not all Aberrations will start off with Darkvision in it's base entry, one would need to take levels in it's race before it gained that. Mechanically and conceptually, I can see Racial levels giving benefits just as fast or perhaps somewhat faster than class levels since they are not available to everyone - only those of that race, but since everyone will have a racial progression it will be balanced with each other. For reference: Aberration Type: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three. Features: An aberration has the following features. —d8 Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Will saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An aberration possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Proficient with its natural weapons. If generally humanoid in form, proficient with all simple weapons and any weapon it is described as using. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Aberrations not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Aberrations are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Aberrations eat, sleep, and breathe. Animal Type: An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture. Features: An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —d8 Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves). —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). —Low-light vision. —Alignment: Always neutral. —Treasure: None. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a –5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only 1/2 its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment. —Proficient with no armor unless trained for war. —Animals eat, sleep, and breathe. Construct Type: A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature. Features: A construct has the following features. —10-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —No good saving throws. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the construct has an Intelligence score. However, most constructs are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Traits: A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —No Constitution score. —Low-light vision. —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). —Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease , death effects, and necromancy effects. —Cannot heal damage on their own, but often can be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality. —Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. —Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). —Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less. —Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. —Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size, as shown on the following table. Construct Size Bonus Hit Points Fine — Diminutive — Tiny — Small 10 Medium 20 Large 30 Huge 40 Gargantuan 60 Colossal 80 —Proficient with its natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with any weapon mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with no armor. —Constructs do not eat, sleep, or breathe. Dragon Type: A dragon is a reptilelike creature, usually winged, with magical or unusual abilities. Features: A dragon has the following features. —12-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind). —Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. —Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects. —Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with no armor. —Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe. Elemental Type: An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. Features: An elemental has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good saves depend on the element: Fortitude (earth, water) or Reflex (air, fire). —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. —Not subject to critical hits or flanking. —Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life. —Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe. Fey Type: A fey is a creature with supernatural abilities and connections to nature or to some other force or place. Fey are usually human-shaped. Features: A fey has the following features. —6-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard). —Good Reflex and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A fey possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Low-light vision. —Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Fey not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Fey are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Fey eat, sleep, and breathe. Giant Type: A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size. Features: A giant has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A giant possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Low-light vision. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Giants not described as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Giants are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Giants eat, sleep, and breathe. Humanoid Type: A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype. Features: A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies). —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class. Traits: A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep. Magical Beast Type: Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits. Features: A magical beast has the following features. —10-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude and Reflex saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. —Proficient with no armor. —Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe. Monstrous Humanoid Type: Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well. Features: A monstrous humanoid has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Reflex and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A monstrous humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Monstrous humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Monstrous humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe. Ooze Type: An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature, usually mindless. Features: An ooze has the following features. —10-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —No good saving throws. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the ooze has an Intelligence score. However, most oozes are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Traits: An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). —Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. —Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning. —Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + 1/2 ooze’s HD + ooze’s Con modifier per full round of contact. —Not subject to critical hits or flanking. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. —Proficient with no armor. —Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep. Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. Features: An outsider has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. Plant Type: This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities, above) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive. Features: A plant creature has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the plant creature has an Intelligence score. However, some plant creatures are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Traits: A plant creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Low-light vision. —Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). —Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning. —Not subject to critical hits. —Proficient with its natural weapons only. —Proficient with no armor. —Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep. Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. Features: An undead creature has the following features. —12-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard). —Good Will saves. —Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —No Constitution score. —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). —Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. —Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. —Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score. —Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). —Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks. —Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed. —Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. —Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep. Vermin Type: This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates. Features: Vermin have the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). —Good Fortitude saves. —Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats. Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Proficient with their natural weapons only. —Proficient with no armor. —Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.
Carnios 09-24-04, 03:21 AM	You should seriously consider the -1000 debt rule. You can still have the race you want, you can still have a great character that is able to achieve the same as that of normal races(slower, but not effectively 1 lvl higher slower). I believe this is effectively the best way to do it. Not to mention it is less work. This is an alternative rule in some book, i forgot where it is.
Sphyre 09-24-04, 03:37 AM	I have considered it, but it doesn't fit the concept. Eventually, you will catch up and then your 12th level character is better than someone elses 12th level character based on lower char class characters gain more exp. Then the character who took a LA +0 race will be hitting himself for not picking a Level adjusted race.... it doesn't fix the problem... it just flips around who it helps in the end.
Carnios 09-24-04, 04:37 AM	They still have to work harder than normal, they jsut aren't working to the extent of another level above normal(which could be used for class levels).\ If a +3 LA partied with a +0 LA from lvl 0 to 30, originally he would recieve XP as a 4th level character(a lot less for killing a 1st level monster). Therefore, he would be at least 3000 XP behind the +0 LA(probably 3,500). It may not seem like much at HIGH levels, but it makes a difference.
Sphyre 09-24-04, 04:40 AM	yes, but it's not the difference I want to see :) I'm off to bed. Back to the project on Saturday... Busy friday (my lil' bro's bday)
Carnios 09-24-04, 04:57 AM	So I'm confused how your ideas is going to fix the current LA "problem". It has the same drawbacks(in my mind) To me, it seems like you are just adding more progressive classes like wizards has posted on their site for drow, lycanthrope, lich, etc.
Sphyre 09-24-04, 05:41 AM	gah, i hate being unable to sleep... What's going on here is this: I'm removing Level adjustments completely. In return every playable race is being replaced with a base set of racial bonuses and a class progression that is variable in how long it is. For example... lets pick something simple like an aasimar. Racial bonuses of an aasimar would be: Medium size Outsider Type 60 ft Darkvision +2 racial bonus on spot and listen checks Sp: Daylight 1/day acid, cold, and electricitity resistance of 3 First level in aasimar gives: d8 hd, +1 BAB, +2.5 all saves +8 skill points +1 Wis +1 Cha acid, cold and electricity resistance of 4 (total) Second level in aasimar gives: d8 hd, +1 BAB(For total of +2 bab), +.5 all saves(for total of +3 all saves) +8 skill points +1 Wis (For total of +2 wis) +1 Cha (For total of +2 cha) acid, cold and electricity resistance of 5 (total) Anyway... that's just an example... I'm not quite sure that's balanced but that's the gist of it. The idea is you can can be as aasimar without a level adjustment but abilities that reflect a +0 LA. Then if you so choose to be like your fellow aasimar bretheren having full resistances and wis and cha bonuses you have to take levels in it - but you're not screwed like you are with the level adjustment system in terms of hitdice - you get the appropriate hitdice for your type. While this race might have only one level you have to take if it weren't an outsider (because outsiders have good everything in terms of bab, saves, and skills). Not only that, but I'm playing with the idea of favored classes - where 1/2 your race levels stack with your favored class levels for the purpose of one feature - so you may smite as a paladin one level higher than you have class levels in paladin since the aasimars favored class is paladin. I'm even thinking since it only works with one class feature every level stacks for the purpose of that feature, but your other class features don't scale like that - and if you use a different class you can have say an elf rogue have instead half of his class level towards sneak attack progression. It really adds some flavor back into favored classes, which is otherwise a pretty poor mechanic. I listed the main problems of the level adjustment system being: Level adjustments cost you hitdice. This costs BAB, Skill points, Feats, HP, and give you a vunerability to anything that targets hitdice. Level adjustments cost you 1000 exp per level per level adjustment over going a race with no level adjustment. and i neglected to add... Inability to play a LA +0 version of a race, so that you can be pure caster... or pure fighter The progressions still make you "pay" for your racial bonuses, but it's a finite gain. It's balanced for low level play, it doesn't hurt your hitdice, and it allows low level games to include higher level creatures in a balanced manner. Anything greater would just break the game to where you'd be stupid not to play a monsterous character if they lacked level adjustments. Do note though, that you can forego taking any levels in your race. You can choose to take 0, 1, or 2 levels in aasimar, so you have control without WotC slapping a level adjustment and thousands of hitdice on you that you wanted to be wizard hitdice.
smrtgmp 09-25-04, 05:09 AM	Given that I'm not a huge fan of the current LA system, I think this is a worthy endeavor. Of the options which you have presented, I agree that the progression method seems the most feasable and the easiest to implament. My only problem is that it seem biased against the spellcasting classes. For example, there would be no downside for a halfdragon fighter taking levels in half dragon when they are recieving +1 BAB, all good saves, d12 hitpoints, and 6 skill points per level. The same is not true for spellcasting classes. However, I suppose this is more of a problem with the way caster levels are handled under the current system than with the LA solution you are proposing. If only there was some sort of Base Caster Bonus to go along with BAB. It would make it much easier to balance such a project for all concievable class combinations. As is, I see this being highly benefitial to warrior types, but far less so for others. That being said, I think you're off to a good start, and I will certainly be suscribing to this thread. I will offer whatever help I can, if for no other reason than so I can implament the final results (assuming there are any :)) into my campaigns.
Sphyre 09-25-04, 06:23 AM	I thank ye kindly for your insight. I'm still playing with the ideas of +1 caster level every other level or something along those lines. I do think that a fighter would be a poor example given that the only class feature that he has that scales is trees/prereqs in fighter levels to add feats. Most other classes make some sort of tradeoff though. In order to make taking racial levels viable, we have to nail down the mechanic for scaling cleass features that go along with them. They have to scale to a lesser extent than class levels because they gain more. Here's my current concept: Every second level you gain in a class level you gain +1 effective class level for determining the effect for some class feature you have. The limit is that it must be a class feature that scales. This means basically, but not limited to Barbarian: +1 to your effective barbarian level when determining your Trap sense, Rage, or damage reduction Bard: +1 effective bard level for determining Bardic knowledge bonus, bardic music songs gained, or +1 caster level Cleric: +1 effective cleric level for turning or +1 caster level Druid: +1 effective druid level for purposes of advancing the animal companion, +1 effective druid level for determining wildshape or +1 caster level Fighter: +1 effective fighter level for determining when you get your bonus feats Monk: +1 effective druid level for determining one of the following: Flurry of blows, Slow fall, unarmed damage, unarmed speed, unarmed armor bonus, ki strike (type) Paladin; +1 effective Paladin level for determining one of the following: smites (damage and times per day), Remove disease, Turning undead, +1 caster level. Ranger: +1 effective ranger level for determining one of the following: Combat style progression, favored enemy, Animal companion progression, +1 caster level. Rogue: +1 effective level for determining one of the following: Sneak attack, Trap sense, special ability Sorcerer: +1 caster level (wow, what an exciting class feature list!) Wizard: +1 caster level or +1 to wizard level for determining when you gain a bonus metamagic or item creation feats Of course if you have any PrCs or other classes that have scaling abilities (or i guess you could even take +1 effective character level for determining the level when you get a class feature, such as when you get evasion as a monk, but that doesn't scale too well at high levels - that's your choice) but that's just the basics. In addition to that, upon gaining your first racial level you gain a +1 effective level for the favored class of that race. If you have not taken that class yet, it doesn't apply yet but all bonuses to effective levels are retroactive. (This means that you can take +1 caster level to wizard 5 times from your first 10 levels gained from your race without having taken any classes in wizard yet, and you are unable to cast wizard spells, but once you gain a level in wizard you're effectively a 6th level wizard for purposes of determining caster level, spells per day and spells known. If wizard was the race's favored class, you also get a bonus +1 at that level) This idea seems to throw it more back into the pool of making casters an option to gain levels in a race just as much as fighters paladins or the like would benefit from it as well. One thing that strikes me a lil off on the first thing is a caster gives up absolutely nothing to gain its first two levels of it's racial progression if a caster is it's favored race, so i may have to find a different idea for that... along with getting an increase in hitdie etc.... (but doesn't get starting bonuses for that race like a wizard wouldn't get scribe scroll yet) It's just an idea in it's infancy, comments, questions, suggestions or alternative ideas?
Sphyre 09-25-04, 06:42 AM	That being said, I think you're off to a good start, and I will certainly be suscribing to this thread. I will offer whatever help I can, if for no other reason than so I can implament the final results (assuming there are any :)) into my campaigns. I know this is a big project. It's certainly nothing i can do over night and have completely balanced but the more community support and involvement the better the result will be. I'm sure I could come up with all of it on my own... but the more brains brainstorming this, the better the results assuming we all work together (as opposed to butting heads) Just think about it... it anything like this gets implemented in 4th edition, or the final product actually gets well known, you can say "hey I worked on that too!" :P course, there will be credits to everyone who contributed when it is finished... heh, wishful thinking, huh? ;) After we work out the mechanics for racial level Phase II will be comprised of ironing out a method for formatting for submitting/posting progressions (much like Class Level, but lets streamline the tags, bolding, and stuff for easier readability. Phase III will be comprised of brainstorming and contstructing progressions. Phase IV will be comprised of brainstorming collective ideas how to make progressions for existing PC races to make sure they don't get left outta the buzz and they are still viable choices. Phase V will be the application of applying those playable races into the progressions Phase VI will be closing up lose ends, playtesting, conceptually balancing progressions, making minor and if needbe, major tweaks to the project. After this phase, the main project would be done. Phase VII: The never-ending phase, this will be where you can post and i'll add any additional progressions for things that are not in the Monster Manual, or things in the Monster Manual without a level adjustment. You also may request for a race to be done and we can implement it. Please hold out on requests until the main races have been compiled though. Thank you. Of course any better ideas to the organization of this project might change it... :)
Sylvaroth 09-25-04, 07:15 AM	Ever thought of a 1/2 class level / 1/2 race level adjustment? Back in 3.0 you'd have the option to start as a 1st level multiclassed characted with some benefits of both classes. Of course you could decide to take a level in eg. wizard and then a level in eg. aasimar (especially for the racial progression this could be really hard to be explained sometimes), but what about a character that is a 1/2 lvl diviner / 1/2 lvl aasimar? At 1st lvl she would have 2 cantrips and 1 divination spell and some of the racial traits of an aasimar (above the race's backbone traits). Maybe d8 for hd, +8 skill points, +1 to Wis or Cha, +2 on saves against acid, cold and electricity damage? (You could even trade in the cantrips for minor spell-like abilities) At 2nd lvl she would gain full acces to both her diviner class and aasimar racial traits. Not sure if you already know, but you might like to read this (http://www.montecook.com/arch_stuff48.html) about racial levels.
Sylvaroth 09-25-04, 07:16 AM	Ever thought of a 1/2 class level / 1/2 race level adjustment? Back in 3.0 you'd have the option to start as a 1st level multiclassed characted with some benefits of both classes. Of course you could decide to take a level in eg. wizard and then a level in eg. aasimar (especially for the racial progression this could be really hard to be explained sometimes), but what about a character that is a 1/2 lvl diviner / 1/2 lvl aasimar? At 1st lvl she would have 2 cantrips and 1 divination spell and some of the racial traits of an aasimar (above the race's backbone traits). Maybe d8 for hd, +8 skill points, +1 to Wis or Cha, +2 on saves against acid, cold and electricity damage? (You could even trade in the cantrips for minor spell-like abilities) At 2nd lvl she would gain full acces to both her diviner class and aasimar racial traits of 1st lvl. Not sure if you already know, but you might like to read this (http://www.montecook.com/arch_stuff48.html) about racial levels.
Sphyre 09-25-04, 08:17 AM	Hm, I didn't consider apprentice levels... but I don't think they'd quite fit the same idea for this. I guess it could be a project that we might want to run after the product in finished though, depending on demand :) Or... even you could come up with the racial apprentice levels based on the finished progressions when we're all done. :) Actually, those racial levels are quite close to what I had in mind, except I was planning on making them more versatile so you wouldn't be stuck into playing a stereotypical character. As Heredom says in his article DND and cliché they are part of D&D, but it's your job to work with it and know when to deviate from it. Or at least that's the gist of it :P
Sphyre 09-25-04, 08:28 AM	Brainstorming: I was thinking about progression guidelines for the starting creation process. I know I don't really agree with the level adjustments explicitly given by wotC, but they could be a very good place to start. I was thinking of this as a guideline: If the creature has no LA but HD, the estimated levels should hover around the current hitdice, possibly lower (because sometime it's just a lot of dead hitdice space) If the creature has LA but no HD, the estimated levels should be around the Level adjustment plus one or two. If the creature has LA and HD, the estimated levels should be around LA+HD*(2/3) to LA+HD*(3/4) Of course those are just my general conjectures to how it's gonna look, some specifics may be off. There are some LAs which i personally think are too high and some that i think are a little low, and some creatures that probably just plain don't fit the pattern, but at least we have something to start off with...
Draco Argentum 09-25-04, 08:31 AM	I thank ye kindly for your insight. I'm still playing with the ideas of +1 caster level every other level or something along those lines. I do think that a fighter would be a poor example given that the only class feature that he has that scales is trees/prereqs in fighter levels to add feats. Most other classes make some sort of tradeoff though. Caster level = character level. If you make it every other level you pretty much won't be playing a monsterous, offensive caster.
Sphyre 09-25-04, 08:45 AM	That would make taking class levels in casters pointless - you'd get better hitdie, better saves and better BAB along with casting progression. When i said +1 caster level i meant +1 caster level in addition to the spells per day and spells known as when you level up. That way you don't fall too far behind but you're trading some caster stuff for racial bonuses such as natural armor or spell-like abilities or something of the like. I thought i specified that in there at least somewhere if I didn't, my appologies. Along with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, after 8 racial levels you can still have a caster level equal to your character level, but you only know spells of 4+ your levels in that caster class.
smrtgmp 09-25-04, 11:30 AM	I dont think the benefits inherent in the system would benefit the fighter more than other warrior classes. Sure you give up a few class abilities, but you are still getting a full BAB in many cases, which is generally the most important thing. I'm not trying to be difficult (as hard as that may be to believe ;)), I just think it needs to be adressed. I guess in a way it makes sense that a spellcaster would have less of the racial buffness than a warrior would. Maybe their lack of physical strength is what lead them down the path to magic in the first place. On another note, how would you handle races like the rakshasa and illithid? Their racial hit dice already stack with sorcerer/psion (respectively) as far as caster level and aquisition of new spells/powers are concerned. Should they gain an increase to caster level faster than your average monster? I would think yes, but I am curious how you would do this. Perhaps a 3/4 progression?
Mylon 09-25-04, 05:43 PM	A rather simple way to fix this would be to simply assign races an flat EXP cost. The most simple way to do this would be to take the LA of the race, add 1, and look to see how much exp a character of this level (LA + 1) would have. So for example, a LA +2 race would cost a total of 3000 exp. The result? At 3000 exp, the character is level 1. At 4000 exp, the character is level 2. At 6000 exp, the character is level 3, and so on. This way, it behaves exactly like the current LA system for characters of first level, but the cost becomes smaller and smaller as the character advances. At 45,000 exp, for example, a LA 0 race is at level 10 and this previously LA 2 race is at level 9 with 3000 exp to next level. At 50,000 exp, both characters are at level 10, though the LA 0 character will reach level 11 sooner. The idea is that at level 10, the race will matter a lot less for the purpose of character balance. The current LA system is broken because racial abilities do not increase with level but PC class abilities do. For example, DR 2/- from the barbarian class is not merely twice as powerful as DR 1/- but moreso, and this ability increase. For the current LA system to be fair, LA > 0 classes should _gain_ additional abilities for free which they reach certain character levels. Since no LA races include such a table and designing them for each and every table would be very difficult, the system I suggested above provides an alternative that doesn't gimp LA > 0 races at higher levels.
delroland 09-25-04, 06:08 PM	The simplest answer is almost always the best answer. Keeping this in mind, the flat XP cost is a very good alternative to the current LA system, in that it avoids the gradual increase in XP cost for a LA>0 race. You could also start a character at "negative" experience, which would create a system where the LA>0 character would be more powerful then his fellow adventurers to start, then the others would overtake said character in power level, and finally the characters would even out as they got higher and higher in level. Another alternative is the pre-LA solution presented in the KoK Player's Guide, whereas the more powerful variant demihuman races were toned down so as to be on par with what would later be LA+0 races. Finally, you could take the stance that some races are simply more powerful than others and require NO adjustment to the level-up system, so that a drow that has 1000xp is second level, but is more powerful than other second level characters because they were born that way. This is the least balanced option, but it represents the fact that it is no more difficult or time-consuming for a duergar, drow, svirfneblin, hobgoblin, or whatever to learn how to be a certain class than it is for a human, elf, or dwarf. This is a story problem I have always seen with the LA system, in that there is no story rationale as to why a drow needs more XP to level than an elf; only a rules balance rationale.
Sphyre 09-25-04, 07:02 PM	*sigh* I did explain why that isn't a route i'm gonna take. That doesn't account for why a 3rd level human wizard is worse off than a 3rd level troll wizard who simply has paid a lot more experience. The idea is that at level 10, the race will matter a lot less for the purpose of character balance. The current LA system is broken because racial abilities do not increase with level but PC class abilities do. That only depends on whether I tweak the races or not. If I don't let them stack then they won't. But the idea is to take the racial bonuses and putting them in a balanced progression as opposed to saying "oh... well that's a powerful ability to have, if you are this race, you will have that ability and you have a LA +5 slapped on you. Have fun being ineffective." My idea in balanced kind of means "it's favorable to choose that, but you have options." Something is balanced when you consider it as a choice and all other considered choices are relatively equal in desirability. (Of course that can change from person to person based on person preferences, but i'm talking in a mechanical point of view) Originally Posted by Occam's Razor The simplest answer is almost always the best answer. Racial progressions is a simple answer, just takes a lot of work on my part ;) I dont think the benefits inherent in the system would benefit the fighter more than other warrior classes. Sure you give up a few class abilities, but you are still getting a full BAB in many cases, which is generally the most important thing. I'm not trying to be difficult (as hard as that may be to believe ), I just think it needs to be adressed. I guess in a way it makes sense that a spellcaster would have less of the racial buffness than a warrior would. Maybe their lack of physical strength is what lead them down the path to magic in the first place. *nods* the latter part of the paragraph makes sense to me. Also you can't just slap a +1 caster level for purposes of spells per day, spells known, and caster level onto every level because then you're overwriting the balancing factors of the caster class by, in most cases, giving it a better HD size, bab, skill points saves and such, which are all balancing factors of spell casters. I like the idea where you have the choice to make the tradeoff - give up some casting for racial buffness? yes? no? Upto you, you're not forced to have a LA, or abilities you don't want. On another note, how would you handle races like the rakshasa and illithid? Their racial hit dice already stack with sorcerer/psion (respectively) as far as caster level and aquisition of new spells/powers are concerned. Should they gain an increase to caster level faster than your average monster? I would think yes, but I am curious how you would do this. Perhaps a 3/4 progression? Yes, I would think that would be in order, it's nice to know we're on the same wavelegth. I was thinking something like this: rakshasa Level Special ability gained 1 2 +1 class boost 3 +1 Sorcerer Level 4 +1 class boost 5 6 +1 class boost 7 +1 Sorcerer level 8 +1 class boost 9 10 +1 class boost 11 +1 Sorcerer level Where the +1 class boost is the mechanic explained here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4472847&postcount=27) A sorcerer rakshasa would simply use his class boost to increase his sorcerer level, otherwise you just get minor sorcerous capabilities. P.S. smrtgmp, I finally found out how to spell your name without having to check it everytime... it's just "smartgimp" without the vowels ;)
Draco Argentum 09-25-04, 07:42 PM	When i said +1 caster level i meant +1 caster level in addition to the spells per day and spells known as when you level up. That way you don't fall too far behind but you're trading some caster stuff for racial bonuses such as natural armor or spell-like abilities or something of the like. I thought i specified that in there at least somewhere if I didn't, my appologies. Okay, that makes all the difference.
kirsdarke 09-25-04, 08:57 PM	id love to participate in this but cant right now :( can anyone pm me a reminder in one month (dont feel you have to)
Sphyre 09-25-04, 09:02 PM	id love to participate in this but cant right now :( can anyone pm me a reminder in one month (dont feel you have to) *raises an eyebrow* Why can't you subscribe to the thread to have it as a constant reminder?
smrtgmp 09-26-04, 05:50 AM	P.S. smrtgmp, I finally found out how to spell your name without having to check it everytime... it's just "smartgimp" without the vowels ;)DING DING DING! We have a winner! ;) I actually stole the idea from everybody's favorite dunken idiot, Homer Simpson. "I am so smart, S-M-R-T!" Out of curiosity, how did you figure it out (not that its that hard or anything)? Was it an epiphany? A vision from god? ;) Or just a refrence to my gimyness from one of my other posts? On topic: The progression of the rakshasa above is similar to what I had invisioned. A question, though. Would you recieve rakshasa racial traits (DR, SR, stat boosts, etc.) as part of your progression through the racial levels, or would you have to decide between those and the +1 class boosts? IMO it should be the former. Also, how would you decide how many racial levels would be available to each individual race? Would that be decided on a case by case basis. I imagine so. I cant really think of another way to do it. As an example, lets use the rakshasa. As is, it has 7 hitdice and a +7 LA. Does that mean there would be 14 racial levels? Or would you cut that down some how? I know you said above that you wouldnt use a direct correlation between level adjustment and racial class levels, so I imagine there would be less than 14 levels in the rakshasa class.
mercurywyrm 09-26-04, 06:03 PM	I got another idea, make level adjustments still require you to not start as that race unless the rest of the party is of the appropriate level, but once they reach a certain level where their racial abilities matter less than a level give them back those levels lost through LA and penalize them in XP per encounter by their LAx50. This causes them to be of the appropriate CR level for their actual power but keeps a price there for taking a more powerfull race.
Sphyre 09-26-04, 06:41 PM	Out of curiosity, how did you figure it out (not that its that hard or anything)? Was it an epiphany? A vision from god? ;) Or just a refrence to my gimyness from one of my other posts? Nope, can't say it was the gimpiness of your posts although you did gimp the word gimpiness when you wrote it :P. I actually looked at it, and found it out. I have dyslexia, so unless I actually explicitly read something I can't comprehend it. When I actually saw it as more than a lump of letters it made sense. It the just always looked the same to me so I never bothered to read it because I knew who you were. On topic: The progression of the rakshasa above is similar to what I had invisioned. A question, though. Would you recieve rakshasa racial traits (DR, SR, stat boosts, etc.) as part of your progression through the racial levels, or would you have to decide between those and the +1 class boosts? IMO it should be the former. Yes, the racial traits would also be given. Again, we're on the same wavelength. Also, how would you decide how many racial levels would be available to each individual race? Would that be decided on a case by case basis. I imagine so. I cant really think of another way to do it. Yes, again.... :D case by case basis in making them balanced. But also I created the guidelines above to help show where to start looking when determining the levels. Basically you need to ask yourself "How many levels would I be willing to take to gain these abilities. If it were any more that you would never take any of those levels, and if it were any less that you'd be crazy not to take it, you know you have the wrong number of levels. Also it might help to notice there are just some monster abilities that as written are pretty damn near overpowering in a PCs hands. Lets say Regeneration were one of those abilities. The troll would then have to take X levels to gain most of the troll racial traits, but then when he levels after that point he has to take a number of levels, say 5, before he actually gets true regeneration. As an example, lets use the rakshasa. As is, it has 7 hitdice and a +7 LA. Does that mean there would be 14 racial levels? Or would you cut that down some how? I know you said above that you wouldnt use a direct correlation between level adjustment and racial class levels, so I imagine there would be less than 14 levels in the rakshasa class. I would think that around 12 levels works for the rakshasa, although I'm not looking at the MM explicitly right now. iirc they have +6 cha and with this progression you'll cast as a sorcerer of 9th level at 12th level (4th level vs 6th level spells) +2 cha per level of difference you're getting a +1 DC bonus per level that you didn't get a boost in your sorcerer levels. Overall this is a +1 DC bonus over a pure sorcerer's DC when comparing the DCs of the highest level spell you can cast. Depending on whether someone thinks that +1 DC is worth the loss in 2 levels of spells worth that you can cast it might be balanced at level 12, or might need to go upto 14 levels. This is one reason why I'm taking this project to the boards instead of doing it in the privacy of my own home. It allows for more input and it may catch oversights that one may not have seen.
Sphyre 09-26-04, 06:42 PM	I got another idea, make level adjustments still require you to not start as that race unless the rest of the party is of the appropriate level, but once they reach a certain level where their racial abilities matter less than a level give them back those levels lost through LA and penalize them in XP per encounter by their LAx50. This causes them to be of the appropriate CR level for their actual power but keeps a price there for taking a more powerfull race. that's a good idea... except there are some things like +stats that are always a good thing, regardless of level.
Mylon 09-27-04, 05:16 AM	If you're looking for an explaination for why it's more difficult for, say, a troll to pick up levels of wizard than it is a human, you could say that the weave (or whatever mystical force in your world) doesn't grant power so easily to creatures that already have it. After all, why does it take more experience to reach the next level than the current one? Or what is this arbitrary amount of experience anyway? Experience itself is a game mechanic and it's explained away after the fact. That is, people that have done more should know more, and this knowledge is represented by better skills and powers. Think of the mechanic first (quite perferably a balanced one) and then worry about the explaination later. In any case, with my suggestion it would be a wise idea for class powers to ovveride race HD and BAB. That is, if you're a troll wizard you get, say, a free +4 BAB and 4 d8 in HP until your own BAB and HP surpass them. So you keep a +4 BAB all of the way until level 10 wizard when your BAB from your class becomes +5. Likewise, around then their class HP (which is kept track separately) should get a boost. This helps them out at the lower levels, hurts them at middle levels, and matter much less in later levels. You can, with using the idea I suggested, take a LA 6 race and still be level 19 on the same amount of exp as someone that has just hit level 20.
gen_tora 09-27-04, 11:53 AM	OK I pretty much think LA is a joke is some respects. But, I will say it has a direction which is more then most consider... How I counter LA... 1) For every advantage there is an equal disadvantage! This is a big one, a good disadvanyage for say drow SR is that it works both ways. Meaning the 15 level elven wizard casting fire ball has to beat the same SR as the 12 level cleric trying to heal the 3rd degree burns. :mymy: The bonuses to int and cha don't really mean much and I restrict thier spell-like abilities to the same limits as Gnomes. Which asks the question, why do gnomes get spell like abilities and no LA? Illithids are definetly harder... But should have a cha score a) equall to the caster level of a sorcerer and be of the same level as said sorcerer. As for the d8s thats easy they keep them until a certain level. But they also lose thier psionic/spell like abilities if they do not feed in brains. 1 brain per day to retain SP without extensive use of those powers, 3 a day with extensive use of said powers. SR works both ways as with Drow. And, illithids are also easier to track with magic do to thier "unique nature." Also extensive use (AKA more then once) of mind blast or any spell like ability usable at will requires a Fort save 30 -Character level. failure results in a sever headache -2 to all acts for the next 3 rounds. Things along these levels would make the idea of playing a "monsterous race" more challenging and fun. You don't fall behind the power curve from skills, feats and hit dice. You get to keep your spell-like abilities and cool powers. Plus it limits power gaming and is more fluid then LA to me... For every advantage you get a disadvantage. Makes more siense to me... More to come later...
wdarkk 09-27-04, 12:48 PM	I'm sorry, that can't work. 1) You can willing lower SR once combat is over. 2) The Drow are still better than standard elves by a lot. Even if you removed the SR and Sp abilities they'd still be better. 3) An Illithid will be eating a lot brains anyways. You haven't restricted them at all.
Amaron Blackthorn 09-27-04, 01:38 PM	I think that while a little demanding at times, the Level Adjustments help to make everything a little bit more fair and a more level playing field for everyone involved.
gen_tora 10-02-04, 08:14 PM	1) You can willing lower SR once combat is over. Not if you use SR as a restriction, for them having spell resistance. Have you noticed the topic is countering LA that requires adjusting the rules a bit to equal out the "super-powers." 2) The Drow are still better than standard elves by a lot. Even if you removed the SR and Sp abilities they'd still be better. The added +2 to Int and Cha doesn't equal allot to me but if you say so. 3) An Illithid will be eating a lot brains anyways. You haven't restricted them at all. Then find a better restiction... Cause as I'm seeing it if you have to eat 1 brain everyday to maintain the psionics and constant use raises your needs to say 12 brains in a day and your getting migranes off the constant use your pretty restricted. But, then again find a better restriction???
Sphyre 10-02-04, 10:12 PM	The project is going a little slow ATM because I have many factors in my life... Currently I'm finding it much harder to balance the outsider type since it gives Full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points, d8 hd... and that's pretty much in line with a choice of class levels for any melee. That given... it might take 30 levels to balance an astral deva... or something like that. I guess the big question is do I stick with balancing based on creature type HD gained or do I create different HD statistics when you level in a race.
Quietus_Silivren 10-03-04, 02:27 AM	I believe that this was the point. Races are always balanced such that the Level Adjustment makes normal races a better choice for any task. Rather, it was designed so that you can play a funny race, but that a funny race will never do anything better than a normal race; this is to limit powergaming.*gags, struggles to keep from vomiting* Oh no, a race is more powerful, that automatically makes them slow in the head? Excuse the outburst, but WHAT THE ****??? People need to get it out of their heads that every character has to be perfectly equal to every other character. Some races have distinct advantages that may make them more powerful. Get over it. Some classes have distinct advantages that make them more powerful. Should we give Clerics a level adjustment, too? :rant: ...I'm sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. I just get so sick of people being so worried about making sure nobody gets "out of line," so to speak, in their gaming, that they forget to have fun. I say just do away with the LA altogether. If a DM does well, nobody will notice that a race is "more powerful." If I wanted to play an Avariel with no LA with my friends, only one would really complain, probably. Any of the rest would say "Hey flyboy, I can't reach that sniper up there, you get him!" LA is useless and counterintuitive. Zoc, please do not take any of this personally. You just happened to make a statement that inadvertently pushed one of my buttons. This is nothing against you personally.
smrtgmp 10-05-04, 12:53 AM	The project is going a little slow ATM because I have many factors in my life... Currently I'm finding it much harder to balance the outsider type since it gives Full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points, d8 hd... and that's pretty much in line with a choice of class levels for any melee. That given... it might take 30 levels to balance an astral deva... or something like that. I guess the big question is do I stick with balancing based on creature type HD gained or do I create different HD statistics when you level in a race. Yeah, I would think dragons and outsiders would pose the biggest problems, since both get full BAB, all good saves, good skill points, and good hitpoints. Thats why I mentioned eariler that I thought the system would be biased toward warrior types. Still, I have no idea how to fix this problew without completely re-writing a good deal of game mechanics. I've been mulling some things over in my head, but have yet to come up with anything I concider to be a satisfactory solution. I'll keep at it though. My gimpiness (I spelled it right that time :P) gives me more time than most to spend on esoteric projects such as this. To quote the Governator, "I'll be back."
Sphyre 10-05-04, 03:47 AM	Yeah, I would think dragons and outsiders would pose the biggest problems, since both get full BAB, all good saves, good skill points, and good hitpoints. Thats why I mentioned eariler that I thought the system would be biased toward warrior types. Actually, I'm thinking more in line right now with all races having: d6 hd avg bab 2 poor saves of your choice other good save 2 skill points per level. This would allow each level to be more potent in progression, along with medium bab being a low loss for full bab chars and a low gain for a poor bab character while no loss for avg bab chars. Most chars have 1 good save, some have 2... but it's there. And lots of races have bonuses to skill checks... but the skills are there for you to use as opposed to before. any other ideas or comments? Side note. I'm just starting a campaign. 4 players chose human... 1 player chose dwarf. Yeah, that's exactly what WotC intended, but it's not my concept of balance.
Degobah 10-05-04, 08:13 PM	First Sphyre, I have to agree with most others that this is a project well worth doing. The LA system is complex, at times easy to make errors with, unbalanced, and blatantly stupid as is (a Large monster has less HP than a medium one, for example). I do have to say the project is of a very tall order though, so good luck. Also just for the record, my group is currently playing with an alternate LA system which may be of interest. We have a set of "Level adjustment classes" - a character with an LA can choose a level of one of these classes instead of having a +1 LA. Most have 1d3 hit points and 2-4 skill points per level, average to poor base attack, and no class abilities- similar to the NPC classes in the DMG but worse (we initially tried replacing a half-dragons +3 LA with 3 commoner levels and found it was overpowered). That's probably the easiest way of doing the paragon levels. Oh also, I always thought it should be possible to start a savage species progression and then leave mid-way, since they're meant to be balanced all the way through. That doesn't let you play the ECL +0 version of a race, but it does give a minimum of +1 ECL.
smrtgmp 10-05-04, 08:46 PM	Actually, I'm thinking more in line right now with all races having: d6 hd avg bab 2 poor saves of your choice other good save 2 skill points per level. This would allow each level to be more potent in progression, along with medium bab being a low loss for full bab chars and a low gain for a poor bab character while no loss for avg bab chars. Most chars have 1 good save, some have 2... but it's there. And lots of races have bonuses to skill checks... but the skills are there for you to use as opposed to before. Would you use this for monsters you throw at the party as well, or only for creatures who take class levels as well? If its the former, I think monsters would become a lot less powerful and easier for characters to kill. If its the latter, then the idea might have some merit, but I think it still needs some work. Pehaps it would work for races such as outsiders who get a lot of extra powers, but I'm not so sure how it would work for an ogre, who pretty much has nothing going for it but a high str score.
Sphyre 10-05-04, 09:31 PM	Would you use this for monsters you throw at the party as well, or only for creatures who take class levels as well? If its the former, I think monsters would become a lot less powerful and easier for characters to kill. If its the latter, then the idea might have some merit, but I think it still needs some work. Pehaps it would work for races such as outsiders who get a lot of extra powers, but I'm not so sure how it would work for an ogre, who pretty much has nothing going for it but a high str score. It, indeed, was implied as the latter. As for the ogre, he would just have to take less levels in orge than outsiders would have to take to get their special abilities. Also just for the record, my group is currently playing with an alternate LA system which may be of interest. We have a set of "Level adjustment classes" - a character with an LA can choose a level of one of these classes instead of having a +1 LA. Most have 1d3 hit points and 2-4 skill points per level, average to poor base attack, and no class abilities- similar to the NPC classes in the DMG but worse (we initially tried replacing a half-dragons +3 LA with 3 commoner levels and found it was overpowered). That's probably the easiest way of doing the paragon levels. The halfdragon, for one, is probably one of the most balanced LA races in the entire Monster Manual. It's pretty much excluside for a fighter type though. It would need to be balanced differently than most of the poor classes. +8 Str +2 Con +2 Int for just a few +8 str equates to +4 to hit, +4 damage. You give up 3 hitdice of full BAB. So you're getting iterative attacks later, but hitting a little more often and do more damage +2 con is +1 hp/hd. (for some reason i remember this being +4 con?) I guess that's less HP then... until 20th level. whene you hav 17 HD to apply it to. (for a fighter taking avg hp) +2 int = +1 skill point per level. for a 2 skillpoint/level class, you break even at ECL 9, and gain 1 more skill point per level after that. I guess it's not as balanced as I remember it being...
jagggar 10-05-04, 09:46 PM	I'm kinda scared. I had this idea about a week ago, but hadn't had a chance to post it. Then I come across the link in someone's sig and I'm here a few days later when I finally have time to read it. Wondering from some of the posts, Sphyre, Do you have Savage Species? I think the book could help some. Here's my current concept: Every second level you gain in a class level you gain +1 effective class level for determining the effect for some class feature you have. The limit is that it must be a class feature that scales. This means basically, but not limited to Barbarian: +1 to your effective barbarian level when determining your Trap sense, Rage, or damage reduction Bard: +1 effective bard level for determining Bardic knowledge bonus, bardic music songs gained, or +1 caster level Cleric: +1 effective cleric level for turning or +1 caster level Druid: +1 effective druid level for purposes of advancing the animal companion, +1 effective druid level for determining wildshape or +1 caster level Fighter: +1 effective fighter level for determining when you get your bonus feats Monk: +1 effective druid level for determining one of the following: Flurry of blows, Slow fall, unarmed damage, unarmed speed, unarmed armor bonus, ki strike (type) Paladin; +1 effective Paladin level for determining one of the following: smites (damage and times per day), Remove disease, Turning undead, +1 caster level. Ranger: +1 effective ranger level for determining one of the following: Combat style progression, favored enemy, Animal companion progression, +1 caster level. Rogue: +1 effective level for determining one of the following: Sneak attack, Trap sense, special ability Sorcerer: +1 caster level (wow, what an exciting class feature list!) Wizard: +1 caster level or +1 to wizard level for determining when you gain a bonus metamagic or item creation featsThis looks like a bad idea to me. It reminds me of a gestalt variant, half gestalt, I saw on the UA boards. Gestalt is kind of gaining two levels per level, but you only gain the best features when two overlap. The half gestalt let you have something like Fighter 20/Bard10 at 20th level, but you'd have the HD of a 20th level character. Inability to play a LA +0 version of a race, so that you can be pure caster... or pure fighter About a third of Savage Species is dedicated to the WotC made progressions (which do include LA). Each racial class they give includes Racial Traits. If the thing wasn't copyrighted, which I'm pretty sure it is. . . *grumbles* Not sure if you already know, but you might like to read this (http://www.montecook.com/arch_stuff48.html) about racial levels.*cracks up* Those are the Racial Paragons from Unearthed Arcana. I would think that around 12 levels works for the rakshasa, although I'm not looking at the MM explicitly right now. iirc they have +6 cha and with this progression you'll cast as a sorcerer of 9th level at 12th level (4th level vs 6th level spells) +2 cha per level of difference you're getting a +1 DC bonus per level that you didn't get a boost in your sorcerer levels. Overall this is a +1 DC bonus over a pure sorcerer's DC when comparing the DCs of the highest level spell you can cast. Assuming that Level Adjustments really are "worth" a level in a character class, then taking the Rakshasa down to 12 levels isn't a good idea. I'd say that the reverse would have to be true, that the LA would be split into more levels since the character now gets HD and everything that comes with them (skills, saves, BAB...).
Sphyre 10-05-04, 10:32 PM	I'm kinda scared. I had this idea about a week ago, but hadn't had a chance to post it. Then I come across the link in someone's sig and I'm here a few days later when I finally have time to read it. Perhaps my sig? :P Wondering from some of the posts, Sphyre, Do you have Savage Species? I think the book could help some. I wonder if every someone reads a post by me if they are going to refer me to a book that I've already read. Yes it is much like the savage progressions with a few changes. 1) You always gain a hitdie, although the quality may be less than in the normal progression and 2) you won't be required to take the entire progression like you are in savage progressions. This looks like a bad idea to me. It reminds me of a gestalt variant, half gestalt, I saw on the UA boards. Gestalt is kind of gaining two levels per level, but you only gain the best features when two overlap. The half gestalt let you have something like Fighter 20/Bard10 at 20th level, but you'd have the HD of a 20th level character. Yet again I'm aware of what gestalt is. This is a little boost, not gestalt. It's designed to give casters viability rather than completely screwing them. About a third of Savage Species is dedicated to the WotC made progressions (which do include LA). Each racial class they give includes Racial Traits. If the thing wasn't copyrighted, which I'm pretty sure it is. . . *grumbles* System reference Document. In my sig. Again just because books do things doesn't mean they did them right (or more properly - to my liking.) Assuming that Level Adjustments really are "worth" a level in a character class, then taking the Rakshasa down to 12 levels isn't a good idea. I'd say that the reverse would have to be true, that the LA would be split into more levels since the character now gets HD and everything that comes with them (skills, saves, BAB...). LAs are imbalanced. If you don't think so, then you're barking up the wrong tree. Many LAs are simply too high to DETER players from ever considering them. This is a case by case analysis. :rant: At what point don't people understand that maybe level adjustments aren't worth it? Maybe they NEED the extra hitdice to even be a possible character. Level adjustments are weak and a penalty to the character interested in advancing in class abilities. YES, this means that I'm giving some classes less levels, but this is a case by case basis and some classes will need more or the same. Bringing up something like "but if you're giving hitdice to XXX then you're going to imbalance it." No, no I'm not. If it's a strong LA as is it will be strung out through a longer progression. Stop assuming I'm going to just do an across the board complete imbalancing the races so no one would ever be a human ever again because "you know how i'm going to imbalance a race because of my ideas." I've had enough of it. If you see a possible issue, bring it up as smrtgmp has in a manner "What do you plan on doing to XXX to balance it? This is what I think would be balanced." This is constructive. Assuming I'm going to go off and make rakashas complete uber sorcerers is rediculous. The idea is to balance things, not imbalance them. smrtgmp, I do thank you for being a perfect example for constructive comments that further the project as opposed to assuming I'm some rediculous power gamer interested in destroying the world with a level one balor :rant: :rant: :banghead: :headexplo Some people make my brain hurt. :bow: I thank you, for you're the only one stopping me from banging my head against the wall and having my brain explode. It is possible the rakasha could become a 50 level class. We haven't gotten to that part yet. We are at the point where we're setting up the design for things so that we have some standard base. Currently the rakasha is a 7 hd +7 LA creature. are it's abilities really worth a +7 LA? well maybe maybe not. If not, then you know what? it'll get the hd/bab/skill points it needs that it didn't get to make it balanced. Again, please mention conceptual things at this point. When we get to actually balancing specific races I will appliciate "I think that the rakasha should have a 15 level progression because...." and you can state your reasons. That will be very much appriciated.
Vintar 10-05-04, 10:39 PM	Finally, you could take the stance that some races are simply more powerful than others and require NO adjustment to the level-up system, so that a drow that has 1000xp is second level, but is more powerful than other second level characters because they were born that way. This is the least balanced option, but it represents the fact that it is no more difficult or time-consuming for a duergar, drow, svirfneblin, hobgoblin, or whatever to learn how to be a certain class than it is for a human, elf, or dwarf. This is a story problem I have always seen with the LA system, in that there is no story rationale as to why a drow needs more XP to level than an elf; only a rules balance rationale. Actually - going by the Dri'zzt books (think that is spelled right) he did have to learn to control his abilities such as leviatation/darkness. He was just not behind anyone else because drow spend so much of their life in training. :D On a lighter note - I think that this is going in a good direction. Just remember - races other than the standard do have a much stronger draw towards certain classes - so favored classes mean more. Good stuff! And in response to someone's question (forget whom) about whether this should be like the savage progressions. I think so - except that the lack of hit dice/Bab/class abilities is too big of a disadvantage in almost every case (don't say exceptions - I'm sure they are there as exceptions almost always are- I can even think of 1 or 2). I also do like the idea of the runt/ weakling of a group (lack of race bonuses) falling onto arcane or divine powers to even the odds. Game terms - no race levels so you don't lose caster levels. Just my $0.02. Or at least its equivelent in paper clips. :uh-huh:
Vintar 10-05-04, 10:57 PM	Oh - and by the way once we get to it - I can help with some number crunching for non-spellcasting based races for balance - just compare a bunch of their favored classes with base race equivelents at different racial levels. Ah statistics. The few - the proud - the accountants.
Sphyre 10-05-04, 11:35 PM	Oh - and by the way once we get to it - I can help with some number crunching for non-spellcasting based races for balance - just compare a bunch of their favored classes with base race equivelents at different racial levels. Ah statistics. The few - the proud - the accountants. lol. I love statistics and optimization and stuff, but hate accounting... grr stupid accounting...
jagggar 10-06-04, 12:22 AM	I wonder if every someone reads a post by me if they are going to refer me to a book that I've already read. Yes it is much like the savage progressions with a few changes. 1) You always gain a hitdie, although the quality may be less than in the normal progression and 2) you won't be required to take the entire progression like you are in savage progressions. Yeah, I got that part. I actually started reading the thread a day or two ago and only now had enough time to read it all reply. So I probably forgotten if I saw you say you had it. Yet again I'm aware of what gestalt is. This is a little boost, not gestalt. It's designed to give casters viability rather than completely screwing them.But this will make the new progressions more powerful than standard classes. We are going for balance with the normal classes, right? System reference Document. In my sig. Again just because books do things doesn't mean they did them right (or more properly - to my liking.) I mean the racial progressions. My thought is to start from there, I assume the levels that they get Hit Dice at are supposed to be balanced. Then I thought, we could work with the abilities that are left over (from the LA levels) and make them equal in amount of power to the HD levels. That would be after examining to see if the Special abilities were equal or not. If they actually are equal, then we just add the racial HD to it, then playtest and our job would be done. LAs are imbalanced. If you don't think so, then you're barking up the wrong tree. Many LAs are simply too high to DETER players from ever considering them. This is a case by case analysis.LAs are balanced enough to play with for some. They aren't however balanced enough to make every race/monster/whatever a good choice to play. :rant: At what point don't people understand that maybe level adjustments aren't worth it? Maybe they NEED the extra hitdice to even be a possible character. Level adjustments are weak and a penalty to the character interested in advancing in class abilities. YES, this means that I'm giving some classes less levels, but this is a case by case basis and some classes will need more or the same. Bringing up something like "but if you're giving hitdice to XXX then you're going to imbalance it." No, no I'm not. If it's a strong LA as is it will be strung out through a longer progression. Stop assuming I'm going to just do an across the board complete imbalancing the races so no one would ever be a human ever again because "you know how i'm going to imbalance a race because of my ideas." I've had enough of it. If you see a possible issue, bring it up as smrtgmp has in a manner "What do you plan on doing to XXX to balance it? This is what I think would be balanced." This is constructive. Assuming I'm going to go off and make rakashas complete uber sorcerers is rediculous. The idea is to balance things, not imbalance them.Okay, did you see that I put the word worth in quotes or not? I don't really think they're worth giving up HD and everything that comes with it, hence the reason I wanted to help. It's my assumption that Wizards has some sort of grasp on balance with their classes. I don't think they're all that they could be, should be, or what a project like this could make them. I think Wizards has an idea though. It is possible the rakasha could become a 50 level class. We haven't gotten to that part yet. We are at the point where we're setting up the design for things so that we have some standard base. Currently the rakasha is a 7 hd +7 LA creature. are it's abilities really worth a +7 LA? well maybe maybe not. If not, then you know what? it'll get the hd/bab/skill points it needs that it didn't get to make it balanced. Again, please mention conceptual things at this point. When we get to actually balancing specific races I will appliciate "I think that the rakasha should have a 15 level progression because...." and you can state your reasons. That will be very much appriciated. Stop and think a moment. I only pointed that out specificly since you were already using it as an example and you had mentioned about knocking it down to a 12 level class. I tried to reply to that with a summed up reason of why I thought that was a bad idea. Please, just calm down a bit. I agree that we can do better than Wizards has done offically, but I think if we can use the work they've already done as a springboard, it'll cut down a lot of work we'd have to do if we were gunna take this project from scrap.
Sphyre 10-06-04, 01:50 AM	Calm down? Oh how i wish i could... jeez. i feel like a woman on that part of the month!! gah!!! Sorry... You just happened to be the person who pushed me over the line. A lot of people have come in here basically thinking i'm trying to imbalance everything so no one would ever take class levels or that picking current PC races will be a penalty... or even worse yet "Don't bother. You shouldn't do this because I find LA completely balanced and I won't ever use it so it's not worth doing." Completely worthless and off topic... heh Nothing against you.... mostly built up fustration from 50% of the posts thusfar.. Something i was thinking.: One of the biggest class features for the full bab classes is the full bab. One of the biggest class features for casters is casting. I was thinking possibly going 1/2 bab per hd because casting classes are getting 1/2 caster level. Not too sure on this. Thoughts?
Vintar 10-06-04, 11:19 AM	I'm thinking no full BAB for any - maybe mid for combat based ones. Example - if Bugbear got full BAB the only advantage for going fighter would be extra feats (nothing to scoff at though) since the HP would be the same with a d8 after the bugbear's Con bonus. However - if for example if it was strung out over 6 levels (just for example) and they only got +3 to BaB - that would probably weaken their combat abilities too much. They'd get their second and third attacks 3 levels behind pure fighters and -1 to hit- not to mention 3 feats behind. However - if they got a full +4 Bab - it might not seem like much difference - but that touch makes it much more playable. Only 2 level behind in extra attacks - and same to hit. However - he would still be behind fighters in feats - other fighting classes in abilities. In fact - I think that would be a pretty good fix - if you include a class feature (probably just 1 or 2- maybe a choice between rouge or barbarian - maybe get to choose fighter too. Always thought bugbear was one of the more playable races as is - so needs relatively few changes) One thing I think you should do is make each class only get to choose from a limited selection of class bonuses - if they want to play a class that the race wouldn't normally be - chances are they aren't much like their brethren (few racial levels). You could still play a bugbear wizard - would just be the runt. Or the bugbear palidin - but gets really mad when he sees evil run rampent(rage). Just my $0.02 - or at least fifty aluminum can tabs.
elecgraystone 10-06-04, 12:58 PM	Good luck Sphyre. :D I'm always hated the LA system! :mad: ANd savage spieces was a good try but it didn't make enough sense. How is a grig to live to 4th level with 1/2 d6HD? :confused: I've always gone with a LA buyoff with EXP or an EXP loss at 1st. :cool: I would really like A better system however, so I hope you keep plugging away at it! :) What I've seen of your ideas look good. I can't wait to see a finished product!
Endarire 10-06-04, 02:04 PM	I appreciate your effort, but I'm unsure how much I can help. I favor the progression method currently. -EE
Sphyre 10-06-04, 03:26 PM	I appreciate your effort, but I'm unsure how much I can help. I favor the progression method currently. -EE That's about the way it's going... just a few ideas on how to help: Vintar and smrtgmp are good examples. I'm currently in the stage of setting up balancing mechanisms. The idea of poor bab and 1 class feature progressing every other level is the current concept to keep them viable without making race levels superior to class levels. This means we're in the idea of creating our own across the board universal hitdie for levels in races as opposed to taking hitdice for their type... posting your opinions on whether it should be across the board or whether it should be a case by case basis? also, I'm thinking since class features and bab increase on even levels, the odd levels should be more saturated with racial abilities than the even hitdice to unbias taking even levels into making taking even or uneven levels in the race equally desirable Example: 1 - 3 racial traits 2 - 1 racial trait, +1 class ability 3 - 3 racial trait boost 4 - 1 racial trait, +1 class ability. That's just an example of the idea to show the bias it's look at. Comments? does that look good or does it need some more work? by racial abilities i just was trying show the bias shifted, not so much the number or quality.
Vintar 10-06-04, 08:55 PM	Personally - I think this is more of a case by case type thing. Perhaps we should have a general sketch - just adjust it for each race. I think the more pure combat races should have mid BaB - otherwise their # of attacks would fall too far in comparison to pure combat classes. Just combat only races - if they get a significant # of abilities (tiefling's darkness etc.) then maybe not. This would lead to them having more raw power - as flavor would indicate. While races such as the drow/tiefling/aasamar (spelled right?) would be more finesse type fighters. As well - perhaps caster based races shouldn't fall quite as far behind in class abilities - though only get a d6 race die instead of the standard d8. For some races with a more diverse class base (drow) perhaps have the choice. For example - in Dri'zzt books males are either trained as wizards or fighters. A wizard would choose the d6 hitdice and lower attack bonus - but less of a minus to caster level. Example - (not sure if this is balanced - just for comparison purposes) No levels in drow - as elf except cosmetic and darkvision to 120ft instead of low light and has light blindness and different weapon proficiencies. Wizard/Cleric-type d6 hitdie Level 1: +0BaB - all spell like abilities and ability bonuses spell resistence of 4+ class levels Level 2: +1 BaB - class abilities in cleric/wizard (based on female/male) +2 bonus on will saves Level 3: +1 BaB - caster level in cleric/wiz (no other bonuses except maybe turning) spell resistence is 8+class levels Level 4: +2 BaB - class abilities in cleric/wiz spell resistence = 11+ class levels Fighter -type Level 1: +0 BaB - +2 will save bonuses/spell resistence = 5+ class levels Level 2: +1 BaB - class ability in fighter (ranger if you must) - +2 Int Level 3: +2 BaB - spell like abilities - +2 Cha spell resistence = 8+ class levels Level 4: +3 BaB - class ability in fighter - spell resistence = 11+class levels (for spell resistence = 11+ class levels - only count race levels towards this that give class abilities - so ends up as 9+ all levels) Long term the difference is cleric/wiz gets 4 less hitpoints - one less BaB and gets an extra caster level. Again - this is just brainstorming - no idea if it is balanced overall - just thinking it is relative to each other - at least the final. Just my $0.02 - or at least 9 pesos.
smrtgmp 10-07-04, 04:12 AM	smrtgmp, I do thank you for being a perfect example for constructive comments that further the project as opposed to assuming I'm some rediculous power gamer interested in destroying the world with a level one balor :rant: :rant: :banghead: :headexplo Some people make my brain hurt. :bow: I thank you, for you're the only one stopping me from banging my head against the wall and having my brain explode. :embarrass Hey, just glad to be of some assistance. also, I'm thinking since class features and bab increase on even levels, the odd levels should be more saturated with racial abilities than the even hitdice to unbias taking even levels into making taking even or uneven levels in the race equally desirable I think this is definately headed in the right direction. Taking a racial level should be an attractive choice, but not a given. I also think the concept presented by Vintar in the post above mine has some merit, as it would pave the way for more flexability, wich, IMO, is [martha stewart voice] a good thing [/martha stewart voice]. This means we're in the idea of creating our own across the board universal hitdie for levels in races as opposed to taking hitdice for their type... posting your opinions on whether it should be across the board or whether it should be a case by case basis? I really think this should be on a case by case basis, at least for now. Races with more racial abilities, such as outsiders and dragons, could probably stand to loose a few HP. Conversely, I dont think it would be out of line to give slightly higher HD to races that have little more than augmented ability scores (such as the ogre). I realize that races that fall into the latter category would have to take fewer racial levels to advance fully as a member of their kind, but it still seems like a good balancing factor, IMO. Furthermore, if you cut down on the HP, number of good saves, and skill points per level, you could probably fit some of the more powerful races into fewer levels. Not sure if those ramblings made much sense. I haven't slept much of late, so I appologize if I'm a bit incoherent. :D
jagggar 10-07-04, 12:03 PM	I disagree with the way you're going about this, so I'll stop giving mechanical suggestions (unless you would like to hear my opinion). However, since I'm a stupid person who likes to make up chart-like things in Notepad: Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Save Save Save 1 +0 + + + 2 +1 + + + 3 +1 + + + 4 +2 + + + 5 +2 + + + 6 +3 + + + 7 +3 + + + 8 +4 + + + 9 +4 + + + 10 +5 + + + 11 +5 + + + 12 +6/+1 + + + 13 +6/+1 + + + 14 +7/+2 + + + 15 +7/+2 + + + 16 +8/+3 + + + 17 +8/+3 + + + 18 +9/+4 + + + 19 +9/+4 + + + 20 +10/+5 + + + Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Save Save Save 1 +0 + + + 2 +1 + + + 3 +2 + + + 4 +3 + + + 5 +3 + + + 6 +4 + + + 7 +5 + + + 8 +6/+1 + + + 9 +6/+1 + + + 10 +7/+2 + + + 11 +8/+3 + + + 12 +9/+4 + + + 13 +9/+4 + + + 14 +10/+5 + + + 15 +11/+6/+1 + + + 16 +12/+7/+2 + + + 17 +12/+7/+2 + + + 18 +13/+8/+3 + + + 19 +14/+9/+4 + + + 20 +15/+10/+5 + + + If you want/need the Good BAB, just ask.
Sphyre 10-07-04, 04:45 PM	I really think this should be on a case by case basis, at least for now. Races with more racial abilities, such as outsiders and dragons, could probably stand to loose a few HP. Conversely, I dont think it would be out of line to give slightly higher HD to races that have little more than augmented ability scores (such as the ogre). So are we looking at several racial path options per race? Or we could have everyone start have 5 points: d4 hd all poor saves poor bab and say: 1 point: increase hitdie size by one for each point spent, to maximum d12. 2 points: increase one save to a good save 3 points: increase poor bab to medium BAB this adds more flexibility too. otherwise we could be getting upwards of 11 different progressions per race... thoughts?
Haldrik 10-07-04, 07:35 PM	Sphyre: The system (race abilities) is built in such a way that's similar to the racial paragon system in unearthed arcana, but at the same time I'm somewhat leaning towards Haldrik's Paragon System in construction. :tiphat: It's been a while since I've meandered over here to the race board. I'm excited by the work your doing. At some point in the future I'd like to build a "Paragon Paragon" :smirk: . Paragon (open class system) Paragon (racial archetype). It seems like you're moving toward racial levels, each level with its own set of features. I'll be concentrating on the value of each unit of features. Both are important. It's important to have a rough sense of how much abilities are worth for the sake of balance. It's also important to have "racial classes" to help players understand how these features can fit together. One of the nice things about a "racial feature unit" is you can put together a list of feats that the race can take whenever feat slots become available, instead of imposing an LA. For example, a player who just wants "Drow LITE", can buy the Faerie Fire and the Dancing Lights (Sp)ell-like cantrips for about a skill point each. The Darkness ability would cost at least a 1st-level feat. And so on. It's probably ok to use the 6th- and 9th-level feats to purchase 1 ability point each on Charisma, Dexterity or Intelligence. (Thus no Constitution penatly is necessary.) Spell Resistance is more powerful and would require more serious compensation. Everything would have its cost, and players can "mature" their racial features at their convenience. At the same time, a player who wants "Drow Classic" can take levels in the "Drow class" that organizes the features into a solid racial class. My main challenge for the Paragon-Paragon project is understanding exactly how much a permanent ability is worth. For example, Darkvision is a 2nd-level spell, having permanent Darkvision (at 120') is worth much more. It seems that the Drow's handicap of "Light Blindness" is a tradeoff to balance the improved Darkvision, tho I'm not certain that these actually cancel each other out. A sense of various values is beginning to gel. I just need to make sure these values are robust, and in particular to make sure that these values remain true at high levels. Anyway, as soon as I'm comfortable I'll suggest a "menu" of racial abilities! :D
Green 10-07-04, 11:05 PM	Sphyre: If you can get your hands on it, the Faeries supplement might be right up your alley. It gives some ideas on how to break down monstrous PCs so that you get rid of LA (sort of). Also indispensible is Unearthed Arcana, which offers bloodlines as well as the method to create your own. You have minor, intermediate, and major bloodlines, which differ based on the frequency of traits. Minor bloodlines get traits every 4 levels. Intermediate bloodlines get traits every other level. Major bloodlines get traits every level. It's a great way to create hybrids. I don't think you can have more than one, but I believe there's a way around that. An idea I had was to translate all the races in this manner, not just monstrous races. This way, it's easier to use the same system for every race instead of creating special rules for monstrous PCs. Another interesting idea would be to replace the PHB racial traits with bloodlines, so that you can have more powerful races being represented by more potent bloodlines, as well as hybrids. I don't have any ideas for that, but here's something I'd use for bloodlines in general: Human bloodline (minor; specific culture) 4th: +2 to a cultural skill (depends on culture) 8th: bonus cultural feat (depends on culture) 12th*: Ability +1 (based off ability most valued by culture) 16th: bonus cultural feat 20th: cultural affinity +2 (grants a bonus to social skills when dealing with people from this culture) Human bloodline (intermediate; human paragon) 2nd: any Craft, Profession, or Knowledge skill +2 4th: bonus class skill 6th*: Ability +1 (any; max 18) 8th: bonus feat (entry-level) 10th: human affinity +2 (grants bonus to social skills when dealing with humans) 12th*: bonus class skill 14th: any Craft, Profession, or Knowledge skill +2 16th: bonus feat (entry-level) 18th: Ability +1 (any; max 18) 20th: bonus class skill It'd be hard for me to justify major human bloodlines, particularly since humans are often the default, and I don't know what a major human bloodline would look like, especially since I don't want to penalize the default human. High elf bloodline (minor). This one is based in the heredity of a character, as opposed to cultural upbringing. 4th: Spot +2 8th: Alertness 12th*: Dexterity +1 16th: +2 vs. enchantment spells or effects 20th: Elf affinity +2 (bonus to social skills when dealing with elves) Elven cultural bloodline (minor). For use with elves other than the PHB elves, perhaps in lieu of subraces. The mechanics pretty much follow the minor human bloodline. To use the high elf culture from the PHB, use the following: 4th: Survival +2 8th: Weapon focus (longbow, shortbow, longsword, or rapier) 12th*: Wisdom +1 16th: Stealthy 20th: High elf affinity +2 (bonus to social skills when dealing with high elves) Elf bloodline (intermediate). 2nd: Spot +2 4th: Alertness 6th*: Dexterity +1 8th: Stealthy 10th: Elf affinity +2 (bonus to social skills when dealing with elves) 12th*: Weapon focus (longbow, shortbow, longsword, or rapier) 14th: Search +2 16th: +2 vs. enchantment spells or effects 18th: Wisdom +1 20th: Weapon focus (longbow, shortbow, longsword, or rapier) Elf bloodline (major; elf paragon) 1st: Spot +2 2nd: Alertness 3rd*: Dexterity +1 4th: Stealthy 5th: Elf affinity +2 (bonus to social skills when dealing with elves) 6th*: Weapon focus (longbow, shortbow, longsword, or rapier) 7th: Search +2 8th: +2 vs. enchantment spells or effects 9th: Intelligence +1 10th: Lightning Reflexes 11th: Elf affinity +4 (bonus to social skills when dealing with elves) 12th*: Animal Affinity 13th: Survival +2 14th: Magical Aptitude 15th: Wisdom +1 16th: Weapon foucs (longbow, shortbow, longsword, or rapier) 17th: Elf affinity +6 (bonus to social skills when dealing with elves) 18th: detect magic 1/day 19th: knowledge (history) +2 20th: detect secret doors 1/day *In exchange for the more dynamic character growth that bloodlines offer, characters with bloodline have to take a level of "bloodline" prior to the levels indicated for minor, intermediate, or major bloodlines. Bloodline levels gain no increase in BAB, base save bonuses, HP, or skill points. It's a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Bloodline levels to not incur multiclassing penalties. If the character fails to take a level of bloodline prior to the levels marked with an asterisk (*), s/he gains a 20% XP penalty until the bloodline level is taken.
Ichor Spellka 10-10-04, 03:56 PM	Hey Sphyre, First off, I love what you are doing here. The idea of dropping the penalties of playing a non-standard race is great, especially when you balance it as well. I've always kind of resented the L.A. system as is, since it does drop one's utility, making you have to choose between flavour and equality. Oh well. Anyways, I would suggest that you keep working on the progression system. The general everyone gets 1/2 everything appeals to me, since it seems the most balanced approach to racial levels, tossing on the extra class abilities based on favoured class. But, it will be a lot of work to get all of those balanced. The only suggestion I can make for the outsiders and dragons sort of thing is to maybe have the hit dice alternate (one level d6, the next d12, or whatever) and do the same for skills and all of that, since that's one of the things that LA always felt wrong with for me. The idea that you have to ask yourself at every level "Would you rather play a mind flayer, or a 15th level sorceror?" My life will be quite hectic for the next little bit, but I'll be subscribing to this to try and keep track of how it's owrking out, and maybe add some comments/advice as it matures.
Franco Un-American 10-10-04, 06:47 PM	Well, first I'd like to say something(s) 1. I agree, LA's are unbalanced and interfere far too much with class progression. 2. I don't thing that this poses as much of a problem as many people say it is. First of all, for creatures like Rakshasa, Illithids, or Vampires, I believe the LA progression was intentionally gimped to prevent PC's from taking that race. Frankly, these races were never really meant for PC use (though I can see why people would want to use them as a change of pace). For me, the problem comes with the 0 HD, LA+1 or +2 races (ie Hobgoblins, Half-giants, and Drow). I've noticed that the traits of these races, while potentially overpowering at 1st level, give progressivly fewer and fewer bonuses compared to standard classes. So, how about something like this: When race X reaches level Y (in any combination of classes) , he/she gets ability Z that normally makes up part of their LA. All this would require is a distillation of applicable races into a LA+0 form, and placing of the other abilities at general levels (exact levels are perhaps not needed, as minor power flucuations between carious classes/races are fairly common). Well, any good? PS: If anyone could tell me how to get those nifty "charts" (that class progressions are usually put into), or for taht matter a sig, could you tell me?
Sphyre 10-10-04, 07:40 PM	charts are easy. you type [ code ] text [ /code ] and each character takes the same width so it's easy to make charts out of it. To add/edit your signature click on "My Account" and then "Edit Signature" under Settings and Options.
Voldenuit 10-10-04, 08:13 PM	Just a quick suggestion that I'd like to bounce off people here. What if you kept the existing level adjustment system, but gave xp rewards based on HD and not ECL? The LA races will still need a lot more xp than their regular counterparts to reach a certain character level, but would balance this out by getting xp faster than the rest of the party. There are problems with this approach as well, since getting a larger xp pool may unbalance item creation feats. Furthermore, creatures with large LA become quite unbalanced with this approach (just as they do under the current system...) One way to get around the two problems above is to use savage species progression and give xp rewards by HD until the creature finishes its SS progression. After that, give out XP by ECL. It's a bit of a hack, I admit, and there are still kinks to work out. Any thoughts/comments/criticisms? Here's a quick comparison for a 4-member party with a Human, Tiefling, Drider and Rakshasha at early levels. I may have time to look at futher progression a bit later. Party Party ECL Human HD TieflingHD Drider HD RakshashaHD LA 1 +1 1 +4 1 +7 1 Encounter8 CR2 2 1200 2 1200 1 1200 2 1200 1 6 CR4 3 3225 3 3225 2 3225 2 3225 2 7 CR5 4 6375 4 6375 3 6375 3 6375 2 10 CR5 5 10375 5 10875 4 10875 3 10875 3 5 CR7 5.5 14125 5 14875 4 15375 4 15375 3 1CR8 15250 6 16075 5 16575 4 16725 3 4 CR8 18850 6 20575 5 21375 5 22125 4
Sphyre 10-11-04, 01:57 AM	Voldenuit, it does seem like a workable system, but what would you do in the case of casters? The current idea on the project is you get to choose how many levels you take in the progression, rather than being forced to take it all. I guess your suggestion really works well with the front loaded ECLs that drop off in effectiveness later. Perhaps caster level for spell-like abilities can scale for racial creatures for the project as to not make them obsolete.
markhaus 10-11-04, 08:03 AM	Removing LA is a great idea, but at the same time adding things classes would not normally give you (stat boosts, regeneration, etc.) is unnerving. Make sure it balances with what classes give you. If a race has a freaky high str, make a str boost equivalent to penalties and then tell the player to put a high stat in str if he wants to be strong. +4 str is great and all, but if you have +2 and encourage the player to put a high stat in str it can be just as good. Regeneration can be arguably added b/c there are spells for it. But perhaps enacting a -10% xp system would add to it. The only real thing is if the player says "My monster isnt as strong as the average member of his race." You say "to make it fair to the other players (and the DM) you will be a weaker member of this race for balance reasons" In our game we have found the racial paragons in UA to be unbalancing (actually just the Dwarf and Half orc/orc which i put together b/c the player can take 2 paragons for some reason) stat boosts arent good in the class system IMO.
Voldenuit 10-12-04, 02:34 AM	Voldenuit, it does seem like a workable system, but what would you do in the case of casters? The current idea on the project is you get to choose how many levels you take in the progression, rather than being forced to take it all. Perhaps you could let PCs stop their SS progression and take normal class levels instead (unlike SS which says you need to finish your progression before taking class levels). Once this happens, however: 1. They cannot return and progress their creature class any further 2. They now receive XP for their ECL, and no longer for their HD.' This is for game balance factors, although the first stipulation is there just to avoid the headache of calculating xp rewards if dipping between creature class and class levels. I guess your suggestion really works well with the front loaded ECLs that drop off in effectiveness later. Perhaps caster level for spell-like abilities can scale for racial creatures for the project as to not make them obsolete. Naturally, some creatures work better as casters with class levels, while others do just fine in their creature levels (Rakshasha sorcerers, Illithid Psions, Unbodied telepaths etc.). I think that giving them xp by HD in their creature class makes up for the difference between ECL and HD, so a Rakshasha sorcerer would still be a couple of caster levels behind a human sorcerer, but less unbalanced than the current LA system. Combine this with UA level adjustment buyoff once they grow out of their creature class, and I think the system should be pretty fair. Cheers, V.
Sphyre 10-12-04, 02:48 AM	While I appriciate your opinion, I will be going on with the project as planned... (progressions) once my life starts giving me some free time... Too much stuff going on at the moment though.
smrtgmp 10-12-04, 10:38 PM	After reading through Libris Mortis and looking at the various "monster classes" it only makes me more determined to come up with a truly workable solution to the LA problem. The current system is a joke at best. Its not so bad for races with low level adjustments, as most classes are still a viable option. Some LAs, however, are so far overblown its ridiculous. Take the vampire, for instance. How on earth could anyone concider a 1st level vampier fighter (ECL 9) to be the equivalent of a 9th level character? 12 hitpoints and horrid saves pretty much guarantee that such a character concept is completely unlplayable. For me, the argument that "those high level adjustments were put there to discourage people from playing vampires" is not very compelling. LA should not be a tool to discourage people from anything. The goal should be balance, not limiting what races someone chooses. And, no matter how you look at it, a 1st level anything vampire does not begin to compare to a 9th level character of any class. Even if this project doesnt work out, I'm tempted to just scrap the whole level adjustment concept. I got along just fine without it in past editions. I suppose I should count myself lucky that I play with people who are more interested in a fun character than pure power. With gamers like that, LAs quickly become unnessesary. [/:rant:] oh yeah, and to the inventor of the LA, this smilie's for you: http://www.geocities.com/sphyre_san/smile/shoothammer.txt
Kylone 10-13-04, 09:21 AM	Have you considered using the Magic Rating option from Unearthed Arcana? It gives a caster level bonus similiar to the wizard/sorcerer BAB. (at 1/2 for paladin/ranger/monk, and 1/4 for fighter/barbarian/rogue) As an example, a wizard10/sorcerer10 would have the normal spell lists, but all his spells would be cast as a 20th level caster. The system is designed to take some of the sting out of multicasting spellcasters. Also, I've considered (but never tried out) treating a LA as a bloodline level (no hp/base bonuses or skill points, but is considered a level in any level based calculation for any class feature (or feat) they have. Not sure on the full ramifications on this one, though... Oh, my take on the Vampire thing: Vampires are REALLY hard to kill permantly without proper preparation, and any game involving Vampire PCs probably woundn't have the PCs travel too far from their coffins. Just some thoughts --Kylone
ShinQuickMan 10-13-04, 10:38 AM	Take the vampire, for instance. How on earth could anyone concider a 1st level vampier fighter (ECL 9) to be the equivalent of a 9th level character? 12 hitpoints and horrid saves pretty much guarantee that such a character concept is completely unlplayable. It's impossible to play as a 1st lv. vampire because a vampire needs to have at least 5 hd. But still, a 5th lv. vampire at it's correct lv. adjustment doesn't compare at all to even a 13th lv. fighter. More on topic, I've been noticing that most people have been ignoring creature types. Overall, creature types do make a difference: an abberation with 4 hd is always weaker than a dragon with 4 hd (at least if you only count the BAB, dice used for hit dice, skill points, and saves). I remember reading a post about counting the HD as a fraction of a character lv. I'm not sure exactly how it was, but it was more or less like this: Animal, Ooze, Undead and Construct = .4 lv per HD Humanoid, Giant, Plant, and Elemental = .5 lv per HD Magical Beast, Monsterous Humanoid, and Fey = .6 lv per HD Outsider and Dragon = .8 lv per HD Note that this only counts for dice used for HD, BAB, Saves, and skill points / lv.; immunities, ability bonuses/negatives, vulnerabilities, modes of movement, speed, special attacks, special qualities, and other racial adjustments are incleded later. For example, a mind flayer's HD is 8. Since it is an abberation, each of its HD is considered .5 lv. So before considering any of it's special abilities and such, a mind flayer is at least considered a lv. 4 character.
smrtgmp 10-13-04, 07:49 PM	It's impossible to play as a 1st lv. vampire because a vampire needs to have at least 5 hd. But still, a 5th lv. vampire at it's correct lv. adjustment doesn't compare at all to even a 13th lv. fighter.You're right, I forgot about that. Still, the point stands.
Sphyre 10-14-04, 06:37 AM	Alright. Time for an update on ideas and where things are heading at the moment. Hitdice: It looks like the hitdice are going to be streamlined, and low - but it's still significant enough to make a difference. The concept at the moment is as follows: d4 hitdie (possibly d6 hitdice for dragons or other creatures?) Poor BAB (variable? possible Medium BAB for races that would be much more likely to melee? 1 Good save, 2 poor saves (Based on race/type? Character chooses it?) 2 skills (What determines what's class skills?) It's better to have 2d4 hitdice than 1d8 and a level adjustment. This looks like having minimal hitdice bonuses may start to remove the problem of the LA system. Abilities: Choice is good. I was talking with smrtgmp over aim and threw him my idea on setting up the choices for abilities. I since then have come up with another idea: Have racial abilities be choosable from a list. Each racial ability has prerequisites of other racial abilities, a minimum Racial level and a minimum HD limit. The idea is that some abilities may be very strong at low levels but not have as much of an effect later. As an example: Full troll regeneration could have a prerequisite of 10 levels in troll, and 15 hitdice. Which means he'd have to be at least ECL 15 to get the ability, but wouldn't need to take a full 15 levels of troll, just 10, but he very well could have 15 levels of troll if he wished. Have some racial abilities scale. After you take 2 levels of a race for example you gain a weak "nerfed" ability, but it scales and/or evolves as your HD grow. For example if you have a race with Darkvision... the LA +0 version of the race may only have Low Light vision. Then after a level you gain Darkvision 5ft/hd (max 30) and at 3rd level of that race the max increases to 60. Obviously it'd probably be balanced different than that because darkvision isn't nearly as game breaking as regeneration, but it illustrates the point of the idea. Also it may just be fast healing 1 at 6 hd. fast healing 2 at 11 hd for the progression and the ability just checks your hitdice for what you get. This allows you to pay for your abilities by gaining levels in the race but they scale appropriately to level, as to not be overpowered for your current ECL. Mainly both ideas are meant to address the fact that while abilities may be overpowered for a 1st level character or second level character to have, that doesn't mean it warrants a +2 LA to give it to the character at that point in time. It may only be worth taking 1 level but not getting that ability until your HD are 3, and thusly ECL of 3, when it's appropriate to have that racial ability. Personally, I'm partial to the second one right now. It seems much cleaner, feasable, and balanced. Feedback appriciated.
okaynowa 10-14-04, 06:41 AM	I love the idea of removing LAs, I favor case-by-case progression, and would like to contribute. IF I understand correctly, what Sphyre proposes is basically open-ended racial paragon classes-- take a level now, later, whenever, mix it up with the core classes to get what you want. Only caveat is that every level gets a HD, and everything should be relatively balanced to other PCs (not NPC monsters) of the same level. Edit:So, some HD for the PCs may not match up to the HD listed for type in the SRD. So, my process would be this: Step 1: Pick a race, any race, and "zero it out." This means reducing its powers and abilities to a point that a player can make a character of it at 1st level (with one level in any class). Step 2: Make a paragon-style progression that at every level grants a new HD and more skill points, and progresses the saves and BAB. Additionally, every level grants the PC new racial powers or advances existing powers. This includes ability score improvements. In the case of particularly potent creatures (demons, dragons), some of these abilities may be every other level (?). Step 3: Balance it all so that taking a racial level is as attractive, but not more attractive, than taking a regular class level. This may call for some racial abilities to be toned down (in the case of dragons and demons, again) or invented for other (like goblins and kobolds). To account for spellcasters, many racial levels might need to include a "+1 caster level or +1 feat" perk. End result: A level 20 kobold (iconic champion of his people!) has as many HD as a level 20 balor (a scheming lieutenant of the abyss!). An illithid 5/psion 5 is not noticeably more powerful than a human psion 10. Is this what you envision, Sphyre? 'Cuz that's something I can work with.
Sphyre 10-14-04, 07:01 AM	Yes, okaynawa, that is quite in line with where the project is headed right now, and I would appriciate your insight Only caveat is that every level gets a HD, and everything should be relatively balanced to other PCs (not NPC monsters) of the same level. It is being balanced explicitly for PCs. Monsters go unchanged. Monsters, as you can see in the MM, CR does NOT equal the hitdice. PCs on the other hand gain a hitdie each level. Being that they gain a hitdie at each level, each hitdice should be weighted as closely to equal as possible. While we can't make the level 17 hit die for a caster equal to the 16th, what we can do is make them so the progression is smoother, as opposed to simply slapping a Level adjustment to make up for the more powerful abilities. Edit:So, some HD for the PCs may not match up to the HD listed for type in the SRD. Yes, in fact that's where it's headed right now. My post right before yours was basically looking at cutting back the hitdie so that you still gain the benefits of the hitdie, they are just lesser - because you're taking the racial hitdie for abilities, not neccessarily for hitdice. If the hitdie is superior to a class level (outsider or dragon VS fighter? no contest...) then there's an imbalance. Dropping the hitdie allows for a much greater level of control in balancing. End result: A level 20 kobold (iconic champion of his people!) has as many HD as a level 20 balor (an scheming lieutenant of the abyss!). An illithid 5/psion 5 is not noticeably more powerful than a human psion 10. Yep, for PCs. That's true balance when you have the same level character as powerful as another character of the same level. And it's very annoying to know that the current system doesn't have that!
okaynowa 10-14-04, 07:16 AM	Understood-- so a 20th level balor PC would still need a few friends to go up against a CR 20 balor NPC monster (roughly speaking).
markhaus 10-14-04, 07:20 AM	CR is not the same as level. CR is challenge rating for a party of 4 equal to that level. A 4th level warrior might be challenge rating 3, while a 12th level warrior might be CR 10 or 9.
Sphyre 10-14-04, 07:31 AM	by the book a level 12 fighter (PC class) is a CR 12... but the art of challenging the PCs appropriately is upto the DM.... this project has nothing at all to do with CR... it's all about making PC classes all equal... meaning a 14th level PC will be no more powerful or weaker than another 14th level PC. (This assumes the Player Classes are all balanced, which they aren't but that's not to be debated here.) Understood-- so a 20th level balor PC would still need a few friends to go up against a CR 20 balor NPC monster (roughly speaking). Yes.
jagggar 10-14-04, 08:55 AM	2 skills (What determines what's class skills?) According to the MM I think, or maybe SS, any skills the monster is shown as having its stat block are class skills for that monster.
okaynowa 10-14-04, 09:07 AM	Skills mentioned in the stat block can be considered class skills. Savage Species also made Craft and Profession class skills for every PC.
Sphyre 10-14-04, 09:07 AM	I know that's how it works in the MM... but should that be the case though for this project? Perhaps that plus you choose a skill you already have ranks in and for that level that skill is an in class skill?
okaynowa 10-14-04, 09:15 AM	Hmmm... if the race in question would have an absurdly low number of class skills (say, only two or three), then the player would probably be justified in "borrowing" a skill from another of his classes for a class skill. If the PC has no other classes yet, the player and DM (or the designer) can collaborate to choose appropriate skills. This assumes, of course, that the PC has enough skill points to spend at that level. Low skill points and/or lack of skill choice may be an opening to balance out other abilities. For example, your sentient golem may only have access to Jump and Spot right now as class skills, but... you gain an extra point of natural armor this level (not exactly even, but you get the idea).
Sphyre 10-14-04, 09:31 AM	In that case it might just be best to say "you get the class skills of the race plus 2 of your choice" If the character in question had a 12+ int they would have to spend cross class or on racial skills then.
Vintar 10-14-04, 10:32 PM	Maybe this is just my take - but personally I think that most of the non-standard races should be almost give-ins as to what general route you should take - unless of course you choose to take few or no race levels. In the fluff - generally when you meet a high LA race - you can be relatively sure what class or general idea he is. (Ogre might be a fighter instead of standard barbarian etc.) So - their skills should reflect their general choices. I don't know about you - but I don't want a bunch of Troll Barbarians out there using fireball wands because they chose Use Magic Device as a race based skill. :mage:
okaynowa 10-15-04, 01:56 AM	Since I can talk theory and toss out ideas all day without actually contributing anything, I sat down with pen and paper last night to tool around with one of the MM races and see how it would fare under the "redistribution of power" process. I used the ogre mage as my test subject, since it has plenty of physical and magical extras to spread around (and I like it). Also, as written the ogre mage is a 5 HD creature with a +7 LA, for ECL 12. Twelve levels, 5 HD-- seemed a prime example of what Sphyre wants to fix. "Zeroing out" the ogre mage for a starting PC was fairly easy, though the result is fairly bland-- since the ogre mage has NO ability penalties, I couldn't give it too many perks to make it a better choice than a human or elf. It's one of those instances where flavor would definitely have to win over crunch in deciding a player's choice. The next part, creating a progression, turned out a little harder. I started by taking the ECL 12 and just filling out the hit dice to 1d8 per level. With a d8 hit die (for giants), that's already way more powerful than the critter in the MM, and more powerful than any 12th level character. Drop the hit die to d6, and it still seems like a pretty powerful 12th level character. So what if it's spread out over a 20 level class? There the hit dice and powers start to look more matched to a cleric. The ogre mage has a 3/4 BAB, but massive Strength puts it closer to a fighter. The ogre mage doesn't have the spells of the cleric, but it does have several good spell like abilities and regeneration 5-- which even in a 20th level character is a powerful ability. It could work with a little fine tuning. Thus, the question: Would it be balanced now that the abilities of a 5 HD ogre mage (ECL 12) have been spread over 20 hit dice? For their patience in pursuing the racial class to its conclusion, the character gains a lot more hit dice, skill points, and feats. PCs who multiclass can still get a lot of cool perks, but unless they concentrate on the racial class, they might miss out on some of the "capstone" abilties. Is this a problem? Or is this what the project has in mind?
Sphyre 10-15-04, 02:01 AM	I don't know about you - but I don't want a bunch of Troll Barbarians out there using fireball wands because they chose Use Magic Device as a race based skill. :mage: Does the fact that I require ranks in it as a prerequisite not cover that? Perhaps the race needs 4 ranks in it before they can choose that skill to be a class skill. This means the earliest he can pick it is at level 6 when using all cross class skills before. I don't see what's problem with a troll being able to use it... just the barbarian. Perhaps you get racial skills... and 1 skill that has been a class skill for you on a previous class you have... so you'd have to take a level of bard or rogue (to be trained it in, have experience... etc) before you could make it a racial class skill? Any more ideas?
okaynowa 10-15-04, 02:11 AM	Requiring the character to have ranks in the skill from another class seems fair and logical. The PC has to multiclass ("get out there and see the world"), and it's a foundation for later development (the new racial class skill is "continuing education"). I'd lower the requirement to 1 or 2 ranks instead of 4-- remember that fighters don't get too points to play with.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 03:59 AM	I'd lower the requirement to 1 or 2 ranks instead of 4-- remember that fighters don't get too points to play with. That's a problem of the class... not a problem with the race. If a fighter is taking cross class skills to get skills, why should he ever "figure out how to learn it more efficiently?" when he's just advancing in racial ability? I think i'm liking the idea of "Choose X skills that are a class skill for at least one of your classes - that skill is now an in class skill for you." or maybe just removing that all together and say all class skills are when you're taking racial levels... it's not like you have a lot of skill points to throw around.
okaynowa 10-15-04, 04:25 AM	Sounds fair enough. Any thoughts on how many levels are actually going into each class? Is it ECL, or 20, or somewhere in between?
Sphyre 10-15-04, 06:06 AM	Each race will be different, but current LA +0s will be given racial progressions so they don't get left out in the dark.
okaynowa 10-15-04, 06:24 AM	Hmm... let me ask it another way. I can balance the ogre mage over 20 levels, or I can shoot for balancing it over twelve levels. Which approach is preferred? How arbitrary is the target number?
Sphyre 10-15-04, 07:14 AM	Post 32 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4473084&postcount=32) - that's about where the target numbers are starting at... it doesn't mean that the final product will look anything like that but that will be the starting point. I can balance the ogre mage over 20 levels, or I can shoot for balancing it over twelve levels. Which approach is preferred? How arbitrary is the target number? I don't see how it can be balanced at both numbers if you're trying to replicate the monster abilities into a class based system. that level 12 progression should just be as powerful as a 20 level progression equivilent when you've taken 12 levels of it. I don't know how else to explain it other than the level that it feels balanced to have all the racial abilities have been acheived will be the last level in the progression.
okaynowa 10-15-04, 07:34 AM	If I understood the proposed formula, the target number of levels for the revised ogre mage (currently 5 HD plus LA 7) should be around 8 or 9. Can't really fit all the ogre mage's powers and ability modifiers into 8 or 9 levels, unless maybe he's got a d4 hit die and 1/2 BAB. As for how the class could be balanced at 12 or 20 levels, it's a matter again of hit dice and BAB (the only variable-- saves progress regularly for everybody). If the ogre mage class is only 12 levels, the HD themselves are going to have to be pretty weak to make up for the tremendous powers gained (regen 5, spell resistance, +10 Str, flight, spell like abilities, etc). If the ogre mage is stretched out over 20 levels, the individual HD can be stronger because the abilities come further apart. The 12 lvl version and the 20 lvl version can't be as powerful as each other-- that's the point. The 20th level version is going to have more hit dice (and hit points), a higher BAB (and more attacks), and better saves. They have the same basic abilities drawn from the MM entry, but one version is getting a whole lot of gravy with it. I'm guessing, Sphyre, you advocate bare-bones-get-the-special-abilities? I'm going on vacation for a while-- I'll try puttering around with it and see what feels fair with this example: 8, 20, or somewhere in between.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 08:41 AM	As for how the class could be balanced at 12 or 20 levels, it's a matter again of hit dice and BAB (the only variable-- saves progress regularly for everybody). If the ogre mage class is only 12 levels, the HD themselves are going to have to be pretty weak to make up for the tremendous powers gained (regen 5, spell resistance, +10 Str, flight, spell like abilities, etc). If the ogre mage is stretched out over 20 levels, the individual HD can be stronger because the abilities come further apart. Ok... maybe you just didn't see it somewhere in there but we're on the same wavelength here. The concept here is that each level you take in your race you are supplementing your character... It'd be annoying to play a rogue mage orge... when all you have is one level of rogue. So by doing this the concept is to cut the hitdie down to a minimum. What this allows is for you to trade off some class levels for racial abilities. The reason of giving a minimal hitdie is it removes the following problem with the current LA system: No additional HP No additional hd for hd based effects no additional skills No additional skill CAPS No additional BAB Every level forced by a LA is a level you can't take of a caster What the minimal hitdie does is it gives you all those benefits, but to a lesser extent than it would if you were to take a class level. The trade off? you get racial abilities instead of class abilities. It makes it an attractive, but not a perfect choice. I think I understand what you're saying more now though - are we trying to balanced it in the minimum number of levels possible? Yes, we will attempt to get the progression in the minimum number of levels to be balanced. Another question someone might ask is Why? The answer is Because this project is attempting to create attractive, usable, and balanced racial levels. It's not being designed to deter players from playing characters of non PC races. I'm guessing, Sphyre, you advocate bare-bones-get-the-special-abilities? Not so much that you don't get a hitdie... that's the complete barebones mistake LA made. The idea is to allow racial abilties... but be a class! This is a class system. Your race isn't you... your career is. And as such one shouldn't be forced into taking 20 levels to get your racial abilities with superior hitdice when you can mix and match 12 hitdice with 8 levels of fighter or monk or whatever you have as your class to have the strengths your character is focused on - rather than being forced to take X levels with superior hitdice. I don't think the racial hitdice should ever be completely more attractive than class levels (why would a player take barbarian/fighter if he could take levels in dragon?) Can't really fit all the ogre mage's powers and ability modifiers into 8 or 9 levels, unless maybe he's got a d4 hit die and 1/2 BAB. Since then there's been some revamping and the idea of d4 hit die and 1/2 bab seems to fix that and make the system more workable. Before I was rating the hitdice higher but if we are going with d4 hitdie the formulas would have to be changed... then again that's just a starting point. The Minimal hitdie The benefits of the minimal hitdie allow one to minimize the levels it takes to balanced the class. For example lets say race X has fast healing 5. Lets also say that we decide fast healing 1 isn't a good ability to balance until ECL. At first level you gain the ability: "At 6hd you gain fast healing 1" At second level you gain the ability "At 6hd you gain fast healing 1, at 9 hd this increases to fast healing 2, and at 12 hd this increases to fast healing 3. At the third level you gain the ability "At 6hd you gain fast healing 1, at 9 hd this increases to fast healing 2, and at 12 hd this increases to fast healing 3, at 15 hd you gain fast healing 4, and at 18 hd you gain fast healing 5" It costs 3 levels in all any level of which you can take, but you have to be more experienced before you gain the benefits of those levels. This makes it so you can but such an ability in a progression that costs the right amount of levels yet it isn't imbalanced for the current amount of power you're supposed to have. Also instead of gaining no bonuses... you gain 3d4 hitdice. +1.5 BAB, +6 skill points and everything else that goes along with those hitpoints instead of sacrificing hitdice for abilities. If someone doesn't quite grasp the concept of the hd based abilities... it's already in the Core D&D rules... The half-celestial template and the abilities are hitdice based. I think this is a great way to balance abilities, yet instead of paying all upfront with a level adjustment, as you invest more, your maximum scalablity increases. As for the ogre mage specifically.... we will get to that at the point where we have a good mechanism for balancing. Basically... we're getting all of the kinks out of the system at the moment. I didn't forsee the hitdie trouble with outsiders and dragons... which is why we're not jumping right into making progressions. Better to think the method all out first than just jump in and say "woooooo let's do this!" and then find that it's all falling apart due to poor planning and organization. I hope that covers a lot of what's going on so far... thanks for the insight.
okaynowa 10-15-04, 09:49 AM	I think... I think I'm having an epiphany. When you reminded me of the half-celestial's gradual accumulation of spell-like abilities, I think I reached understanding. Yes, we're aiming for designing minimum levels in the racial class because some/most racial abilities will still improve with TOTAL hit dice from all classes. The ogre mage's regeneration and natural armor could continue to improve while he took levels of sorceror... but if he took a few racial levels, his potential improvement would be higher. I get it. I don't mean to sound like I'm overhyping the ogre mage, by the way. I only bring it up because I need concrete examples, and I understand the theory better if there's something on hand to abuse with it. There's no way I can tell if the method works until I can see it breaking down (as my mis-perceived version did) :). Now that I think I have a better understanding of what you mean, I'm still going to work on this example-- I figure out how to balance things for my game by crunching. However, I won't clutter the thread with it.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 10:16 AM	Well, we'll get into concrete progressions soon :) So to recap the direction this is going All Racial progressions will work like this: d4 HD Poor BAB One good save (Race specific? certainly works for flavor... i can't see a big ugly orc having a good will save over a good fort save) 2 skills per level, class skills are chosen based on base creature in class skills, and any class levels you have as class skills are also class skills for your racial levels. +1 class boost every other level. (To be explicitly written out in a future post) Some applicable abilities scale by HD, but are aquired by certain levels Other abilities are static and just go up as you get higher level. Levels are taken at the option of the player - you are not forced into taking levels as opposed to the savage species progression. All races have LA +0 equivilents. It's upto the player to have a reason why one is like such. Whether a runt, a weakling or simply a younger member of the species. No more than a +2 stat boost to any one given score at a level. (for example it would require at least 5 different levels to get +10 str) I can imagine +2 stat boost being common upon first level aquisition. (New! Discuss!! :)) Spell-like abilities gain new scaling capability to stay useful and we worth the level you took. (New! Discuss!! :)) Please mention all concerns, if any.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 10:19 AM	Seems to me that we're going to be wrapping up the preliminary balancing ideas and starting to get into the progressions soon. I'll write up the Streamlined format for posting in the near future.
jagggar 10-15-04, 10:20 AM	The reason of giving a minimal hitdie is it removes the following problem with the current LA system: No additional HP No additional hd for hd based effects no additional skills No additional skill CAPS No additional BAB Every level forced by a LA is a level you can't take of a caster What the minimal hitdie does is it gives you all those benefits, but to a lesser extent than it would if you were to take a class level. The trade off? you get racial abilities instead of class abilities. It makes it an attractive, but not a perfect choice. Not so much that you don't get a hitdie... that's the complete barebones mistake LA made. The idea is to allow racial abilties... but be a class! This is a class system. Your race isn't you... your career is. And as such one shouldn't be forced into taking 20 levels to get your racial abilities with superior hitdice when you can mix and match 12 hitdice with 8 levels of fighter or monk or whatever you have as your class to have the strengths your character is focused on - rather than being forced to take X levels with superior hitdice. I don't think the racial hitdice should ever be completely more attractive than class levels (why would a player take barbarian/fighter if he could take levels in dragon?)I agree with all the problems you stated except the last one. That's not just a problem from LA, but from any multiclassing that could happen. You won't eliminate this for anyone who wants the racial abilities and the caster levels. It can be avoided by being the weakest member of your kind racially, but more powerful with magic, this being represented by the allowance to multiclass before the racial progression is complete (theoretically, you could never take a level in a racial class). I'd rather get my half-dragon abilities over a longer period of time with the larger HD rather than all pretty quick but with crapy HD. My race may not be me, but that's only if I focus on other things in my life. If I want to be the most awesome half-dragon ever, just add on the UA paragon levels and I'll be so totally cool. I'll be sacrificing other stuff to do it, but I want to be the best half-dragon I can be. The player doesn't want the abilties offered by the dragon, the player'd prefer something else. Class levels shouldn't be more attractive than racial levels either I don't see what's wrong with coming up with some examples of progressions before the method is ironed out. How are you going to know if a method works if you don't try it and test it?
jagggar 10-15-04, 10:26 AM	No more than a +2 stat boost to any one given score at a level. (for example it would require at least 5 different levels to get +10 str) I can imagine +2 stat boost being common upon first level aquisition. (New! Discuss!! :)) Probably a good idea. In SS they did give their progressions more than that, but they were including LAs which we don't want. If a one level dip will turn into a problem or not, I'm not sure. It could. Putting the +2 stat at second level could prevent that some. Don't know though. I'll be posting again later, I should really be writing a paper about depression that's due in half an hour.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 11:00 AM	I agree with all the problems you stated except the last one. That's not just a problem from LA, but from any multiclassing that could happen. You won't eliminate this for anyone who wants the racial abilities and the caster levels. It can be avoided by being the weakest member of your kind racially, but more powerful with magic, this being represented by the allowance to multiclass before the racial progression is complete (theoretically, you could never take a level in a racial class). True. I'd rather get my half-dragon abilities over a longer period of time with the larger HD rather than all pretty quick but with crapy HD. My race may not be me, but that's only if I focus on other things in my life. If I want to be the most awesome half-dragon ever, just add on the UA paragon levels and I'll be so totally cool. I'll be sacrificing other stuff to do it, but I want to be the best half-dragon I can be. Currently the Halfdragon template gives you a +3 LA and immediate benefits but loss of BAB, saves hd... etc you know the drill. The way this is currently headed with getting your abilities over time is to have the HD prereq. For the sake that you want a specific example I'll use the halfdragon, albeit, It won't be balanced yet so don't complain there... Level BAB Abilities 0 +0 Natural Weapons +2 str 1 +0 Natural Armor +1, +2 str, Breath Weapon (Stage 1) 2 +1 Natural Armor +1, +1 Class Boost, Breath Weapon (Stage 2) 3 +1 Natural Armor +1, +2 str, +2 Int, +2 Cha, Breath Weapon (Stage 3), Flight (Stage 1) 4 +2 Natural Armor +1, +2 str, +2 con, +1 Class Boost, Breath Weapon (Stage 4), Flight (Stage 2) Natural Weapons: As MM states on page 146 Breath Weapon: Energy and shape as MM, damage as follows: Stage 1 - 1d6/hd max 4d6 Stage 2 - 1d6/hd max 8d6 Stage 3 - 1d6/hd max 12d6 Stage 4 - 1d6/hd max 16d6 +1 Class Boost: See earlier post... Flight: Your flying ability increases as you grow more talented and experienced Stage 1 - At 3 hitdice you gain a fly speed equal to half your land speed (Poor Manuverability) - At 5 hitdice your fly speed increases to your land speed - At 7 hitdice your fly manuverability becomes Average Stage 2 - At 3 hitdice you gain a fly speed equal to half your land speed (Average Manuverability) - At 5 hitdice your fly speed increases to your land speed - At 7 hitdice your fly manuverability becomes Good - At 11 hitdice your fly speed increases to double your land speed That's just the gist of it. It'd take some more than just whipping it together to make it balanced. I just put like one thing in for the LA +0... I'm sure there could have be any combination of things... You may notice, you can take some of your half dragon levels later, like at 4th level, 8th level, 12th level and 16th level which are key levels to spread out your growth or take them all at once - players choice. The player doesn't want the abilties offered by the dragon, the player'd prefer something else. Class levels shouldn't be more attractive than racial levels either Are you playing a troll? or a troll wizard, troll fighter, troll rogue? I guess I'm biased to let you define your character a little more by having a profession. I don't see what's wrong with coming up with some examples of progressions before the method is ironed out. How are you going to know if a method works if you don't try it and test it? The reason why i'm reluctant to come up with the examples as you said... is because people might critisize and yell imbalance before I even start looking at balancing particular races. As you may notice... that halfdragon looks like it needs a level or 2 more to make it balanced. You might also notice that I changed the way the breath weapon works to scale so that taking that level in halfdragon doesn't come to bite you in the rear at later levels. Of course now it may or may not be strong or weak enough, but that's the reason why I avoided specific examples in the first place because it takes time to come up with balance... when I'm just pullin that outta my rear. *** I'm thinking of changing +1 Class boosts name to "Specialization" and then defining it in a later post. Anything else we can call this +1 class boost thing?
Sphyre 10-15-04, 11:07 AM	Probably a good idea. In SS they did give their progressions more than that, but they were including LAs which we don't want. If a one level dip will turn into a problem or not, I'm not sure. It could. Putting the +2 stat at second level could prevent that some. Don't know though. I'll be posting again later, I should really be writing a paper about depression that's due in half an hour. I don't see much of a problem with a 1 level dip... I want to make a 1, 2, 3, 4, or any level dip as close to equal as possible. Since we have the mechanics of +1 class boost on even levels to prevent "free dipping the first level," the odd levels have to be made just as desirable to leave taking race levels as the even ones. Have fun with the paper :P I don't know what I'll be doing... I might be napping I might be running... I might be cruising around looking for a job... I might be here on the forums... I haven't slept last night and it's 10 AM and I haven't felt tired yet... so I don't know what's going on :(
jagggar 10-15-04, 03:25 PM	Currently the Halfdragon template gives you a +3 LA and immediate benefits but loss of BAB, saves hd... etc you know the drill. The way this is currently headed with getting your abilities over time is to have the HD prereq. For the sake that you want a specific example I'll use the halfdragon, albeit, It won't be balanced yet so don't complain there... Level BAB Abilities 0 +0 Natural Weapons +2 str 1 +0 Natural Armor +1, +2 str, Breath Weapon (Stage 1) 2 +1 Natural Armor +1, +1 Class Boost, Breath Weapon (Stage 2) 3 +1 Natural Armor +1, +2 str, +2 Int, +2 Cha, Breath Weapon (Stage 3), Flight (Stage 1) 4 +2 Natural Armor +1, +2 str, +2 con, +1 Class Boost, Breath Weapon (Stage 4), Flight (Stage 2) Natural Weapons: As MM states on page 146 Breath Weapon: Energy and shape as MM, damage as follows: Stage 1 - 1d6/hd max 4d6 Stage 2 - 1d6/hd max 8d6 Stage 3 - 1d6/hd max 12d6 Stage 4 - 1d6/hd max 16d6 +1 Class Boost: See earlier post... Flight: Your flying ability increases as you grow more talented and experienced Stage 1 - At 3 hitdice you gain a fly speed equal to half your land speed (Poor Manuverability) - At 5 hitdice your fly speed increases to your land speed - At 7 hitdice your fly manuverability becomes Average Stage 2 - At 3 hitdice you gain a fly speed equal to half your land speed (Average Manuverability) - At 5 hitdice your fly speed increases to your land speed - At 7 hitdice your fly manuverability becomes Good - At 11 hitdice your fly speed increases to double your land speed That's just the gist of it. It'd take some more than just whipping it together to make it balanced. I just put like one thing in for the LA +0... I'm sure there could have be any combination of things... You may notice, you can take some of your half dragon levels later, like at 4th level, 8th level, 12th level and 16th level which are key levels to spread out your growth or take them all at once - players choice. You using d4 HD and all the other low stuff for that? Do you know that you're giving the half-dragon some stuff that it doesn't actually have normally? No wings for your standard (medium) one and the breath weapon is based on d8s. As far as the half-dragon goes, I'm kind of looking at the Dragon Disciple for ideas. But this could be a whole new topic (might actually start it, not really related to this one). Are you playing a troll? or a troll wizard, troll fighter, troll rogue? I guess I'm biased to let you define your character a little more by having a profession.Dragon seems to be a full time profession, just being a dragon. Profession doesn't nessacarly mean you need a (PC) class to do it. But anyway, I just mean that we should keep it balanced, but we shouldn't nerf stuff either in this attempt. Dragons are known to be extremely tough, dropping down to d4 HD, all poor saves, crappy skill points and such can hurt them. The reason why i'm reluctant to come up with the examples as you said... is because people might critisize and yell imbalance before I even start looking at balancing particular races. As you may notice... that halfdragon looks like it needs a level or 2 more to make it balanced. You might also notice that I changed the way the breath weapon works to scale so that taking that level in halfdragon doesn't come to bite you in the rear at later levels. Of course now it may or may not be strong or weak enough, but that's the reason why I avoided specific examples in the first place because it takes time to come up with balance... when I'm just pullin that outta my rear.I'm not saying that you should make up some example and have that be final. I think it would be easier to figure out what me mean by balance by trying some stuff out. We're going to have to anyway with each and every monster.
jagggar 10-15-04, 04:08 PM	Class Bonus Okay, I want to understand why you like this idea. I see it as a bad idea and don't like it. Class bonuses will be something that replaces what could be additional racial abilities. Racial classes will then have to increase in number of levels because of these additional abilities. Class abilities spawn from culture and education, not genetics. (Orphaned bugbear, 3.0 favored class Rogue, would not have a sneak attack if it was raised in a wizard's college. Drow (male) somehow raised by barbarians wouldn't have any reason to know how to cast magic spells as a wizard.) Without restricting multiclassing like SS does (must finish race before progressing in PC classes), any cultural tendencies towards a specific class could be represented by multiclassing. Players know what they want. Shoving class abilities in there which increases the time it takes to get to the highest level. A player who doesn't want the class abilities that you threw into the racial progressions will still have to waste levels on stuff s/he doesn't want just to get to the stuff s/he does want. The reason for the project was to remove wasted levels (generally known as LA). I do not see the benefits of using a Class Bonus sort of mechanic.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 07:15 PM	You using d4 HD and all the other low stuff for that? Do you know that you're giving the half-dragon some stuff that it doesn't actually have normally? No wings for your standard (medium) one and the breath weapon is based on d8s. I think it was pretty obvious that I Knew that I was modifying the abilities from the current form. This was to make it so that the breath weapon would not become obsolete. I mean, who's gonna take 5 levels of a race to get an ability that pretty much becomes obsolete 5 levels later? And yes, that's using the d4 hitdie. Keep in mind you already are tougher than if you simply took a +3 LA because in that case you don't even get a new hitdie. As far as the half-dragon goes, I'm kind of looking at the Dragon Disciple for ideas. But this could be a whole new topic (might actually start it, not really related to this one). DD adds the template with the +3 LA on it though... I think it's easier just to break it up... when the time comes to balance the half-dragon we'll work on that issue then. Dragon seems to be a full time profession, just being a dragon. Profession doesn't nessacarly mean you need a (PC) class to do it. But anyway, I just mean that we should keep it balanced, but we shouldn't nerf stuff either in this attempt. Dragons are known to be extremely tough, dropping down to d4 HD, all poor saves, crappy skill points and such can hurt them. But isn't being a dragon pretty much filling the role of what a sorcerer/fighter would be? It hurts more to have an imbalance in which taking a level in dragon is the equivilent of playing a tr-gestalt sorcerer/monk/barbarian and the PCs would never choose any other race.... The d4 hitdie (which should include one good save) is a way to give some - but not all, of the lost hitdice problem back to the player that the LA system doesn't account for. It's not balanced to have a d12, full BAB, all good saves, race that gives sorcerer casting ability.... why would anyone ever take levels in sorcerer and fighter? This issue was expressed earlier. "Why would anyone use PC classes, if the class features they were looking for were given in the hitdice?" Everthing's just gravy. A fighter type who has his feats that he'll be using will be dragon for better hitdie, same BAB, good saves, and more.... No one's being forced to take a 3d4 hitdice for halfdragon.... you wouldn't even have that if you took a +3 LA.... it's a bonus. As for races with Hitdice already in there... that's another animal to fix. They might be ones that would better fit a d6 hitdie. Also, I may note that there are no True Dragons in the monster manual that are "playable," and few with the dragon type. I think monsters that currently don't have LAs should be considered after we do the ones with current LAs. Class Bonus Okay, I want to understand why you like this idea. I see it as a bad idea and don't like it. There's one of which that makes sense... yet another of which doesn't apply... Class abilities spawn from culture and education, not genetics. (Orphaned bugbear, 3.0 favored class Rogue, would not have a sneak attack if it was raised in a wizard's college. Drow (male) somehow raised by barbarians wouldn't have any reason to know how to cast magic spells as a wizard.) I never advocated that you would advance in sneak attack if you were trained in wizard. It doesn't make much sense that if you gain 6 levels of your race that you will have gotten absolutely no better at casting your wizard spells. Those class boosts are used to supplement your existing abilities - much like the BAB goes up at half the rate for a fighter, the caster level and spells known/per day and all goes up at half rates for wizard.... It's a feature meant to alleviate casters. It's starting to look more though, that it might need to be an every third level thing, depending on how saturated the levels are. I think you may be confused by the fact I was toying with the idea of adding some favored class feature... but that hasn't happened, at least not yet. Players know what they want. Shoving class abilities in there which increases the time it takes to get to the highest level. A player who doesn't want the class abilities that you threw into the racial progressions will still have to waste levels on stuff s/he doesn't want just to get to the stuff s/he does want. The reason for the project was to remove wasted levels (generally known as LA). This on the other hand is a valid point. This is one of the reasons I was thinking about moving it to every 3rd level sort of thing instead of every half. Although, up until now, no one has spoken about such a thing. More opinion is appriciated. I think, while that may a valid point, not everyone would want it... and if it's made minimal enough of a boost, it might be able to be seem as just a perk, as opposed to "drawing out" the racial classes into more levels. More opinion on this would be appriciated? Keep it as is? cut it to 1/3 progression? cut it out?
smrtgmp 10-15-04, 07:35 PM	I don't know what I'll be doing... I might be napping I might be running... I might be cruising around looking for a job... I might be here on the forums... fending off underaged girls? ;) Players know what they want. Shoving class abilities in there which increases the time it takes to get to the highest level. A player who doesn't want the class abilities that you threw into the racial progressions will still have to waste levels on stuff s/he doesn't want just to get to the stuff s/he does want. The reason for the project was to remove wasted levels (generally known as LA). Maybe I misunderstood what was initially proposed, but I thought the player would get to choose which class feature was increased. For example, a troll wizard could choose to increase its caster level, while a troll fighter could increase its BAB, or get an extra feat, etc. IMO that is the way it should work, as it would allow for more flexability and prevent railroading and racial stereotypes.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 08:53 PM	fending off underaged girls? ;) lol, not today... woops... spoke too soon... ah there... yeah i guess i was.... :P I bet other guys would love to have my problem... lol Maybe I misunderstood what was initially proposed, but I thought the player would get to choose which class feature was increased. For example, a troll wizard could choose to increase its caster level, while a troll fighter could increase its BAB, or get an extra feat, etc. IMO that is the way it should work, as it would allow for more flexability and prevent railroading and racial stereotypes. No, you understood it correctly. I think she got a little confused though :P It wouldn't need a special name if there was no choice... if there was no choice we could just make each progression have class features of it's favored class without the need for streamlining it.
jagggar 10-15-04, 09:04 PM	I think it was pretty obvious that I Knew that I was modifying the abilities from the current form. This was to make it so that the breath weapon would not become obsolete. I mean, who's gonna take 5 levels of a race to get an ability that pretty much becomes obsolete 5 levels later? And yes, that's using the d4 hitdie. Keep in mind you already are tougher than if you simply took a +3 LA because in that case you don't even get a new hitdie.I would. It's called flavor and something you can do when all your equipment goes bye-bye. Change it to more dragonish HD and how could that be a waste? As you have it, that guy'll be breathin' more deadlynessism than a true dragon with the same HD. Gold deals 8d10 at 17HD. Half-dragon: 16d6 -> 56 avg Gold Juvenile: 8d10 -> 44 avg DD adds the template with the +3 LA on it though... I think it's easier just to break it up... when the time comes to balance the half-dragon we'll work on that issue then.As I've read it and seen everyone else read it, you get the template, but you don't have the LA. It was said that with DD, you get the half-dragon template, 10d12 HP, good Fort and Will, average BAB, Blindsense 60ft., wings, and a higher DC for your breath weapon. But isn't being a dragon pretty much filling the role of what a sorcerer/fighter would be? It hurts more to have an imbalance in which taking a level in dragon is the equivilent of playing a tr-gestalt sorcerer/monk/barbarian and the PCs would never choose any other race.... The d4 hitdie (which should include one good save) is a way to give some - but not all, of the lost hitdice problem back to the player that the LA system doesn't account for. It's not balanced to have a d12, full BAB, all good saves, race that gives sorcerer casting ability.... why would anyone ever take levels in sorcerer and fighter? This issue was expressed earlier. "Why would anyone use PC classes, if the class features they were looking for were given in the hitdice?" Everthing's just gravy. A fighter type who has his feats that he'll be using will be dragon for better hitdie, same BAB, good saves, and more.... Also, I may note that there are no True Dragons in the monster manual that are "playable," and few with the dragon type. I think monsters that currently don't have LAs should be considered after we do the ones with current LAs.The DM can always say, "Only these types of creatures are allowed. I am not running a monsterous campaign." Brass get their spells earliest, at 10HD. They cast as 1st level sorcerers. This increases to casting as a 3rd level sorcerer 3 HD later (13HD). Not the most effective fighter/sorcerer. (Dragons don't make the best fighters when it comes to weapons and such. Draconomicon says that they can't grip a weapon effectively enough to weild it.) And yes, it does have LAs for True Dragons:BRASS DRAGON Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +2; very young +3; young +4; juvenile +4; others —Dragon 320 has classes written out for metallics and they seem to be planning classes for the chromatics. I never advocated that you would advance in sneak attack if you were trained in wizard. It doesn't make much sense that if you gain 6 levels of your race that you will have gotten absolutely no better at casting your wizard spells. Those class boosts are used to supplement your existing abilities - much like the BAB goes up at half the rate for a fighter, the caster level and spells known/per day and all goes up at half rates for wizard.... It's a feature meant to alleviate casters. It's starting to look more though, that it might need to be an every third level thing, depending on how saturated the levels are. I think you may be confused by the fact I was toying with the idea of adding some favored class feature... but that hasn't happened, at least not yet. This on the other hand is a valid point. This is one of the reasons I was thinking about moving it to every 3rd level sort of thing instead of every half. Although, up until now, no one has spoken about such a thing. More opinion is appriciated. I think, while that may a valid point, not everyone would want it... and if it's made minimal enough of a boost, it might be able to be seem as just a perk, as opposed to "drawing out" the racial classes into more levels. More opinion on this would be appriciated? Keep it as is? cut it to 1/3 progression? cut it out?Okay, I understand a bit more what you were doing, however, I still disagree. If there's no restiction on multicasting, there's no reason to give them a bonus.
jagggar 10-15-04, 09:16 PM	I think he got a little confused though :P :rant: I'M A GIRL!!! :rant: Hey, if everyone else's usin' it (rant smilie), I might as well. . .
Sphyre 10-15-04, 09:51 PM	:rant: I'M A GIRL!!! :rant: Hey, if everyone else's usin' it (rant smilie), I might as well. . . My sincerest appologies. I meant no offense. I attempt to use gender neutral pronouns ussually... I guess I just slipped there. :cookie: I baked you some cookies as a sign of condolences. I would. It's called flavor and something you can do when all your equipment goes bye-bye. Change it to more dragonish HD and how could that be a waste? As you have it, that guy'll be breathin' more deadlynessism than a true dragon with the same HD. Gold deals 8d10 at 17HD. Half-dragon: 16d6 -> 56 avg Gold Juvenile: 8d10 -> 44 avg This is exactly why I avoided putting down specific examples - because I knew I wasn't going to think of everything in the first post. I'm trying to express the concept of an ability here. You know exactly what I meant when I gave you the example but you went into balancing issues which is totally not the point of it at the moment. I could say 1d20/hd and it shows the same concept I was expressing without showing any semblance of balance. If you're also going to look at that point.... a halfdragon can only use his breathweapon once a day, while a dragon it's once every 1d4 rounds. I completely disagree on the argument of flavor. If you want flavor, then you're going to be much happier with the SS progression and LAs. Why? because you get hitdice and stuff.... this project is based around balance and as such has to sacrifice a little flavor. Besides... how does adding 1d4 hitdice to your hp as opposed to 1d8 constitute any more flavor? It's a game mechanic. Dragons don't go around saying "hey, i have a d12 hitdie, so that means i'm buff" As I've read it and seen everyone else read it, you get the template, but you don't have the LA. It was said that with DD, you get the half-dragon template, 10d12 HP, good Fort and Will, average BAB, Blindsense 60ft., wings, and a higher DC for your breath weapon. Hm. I can't say I've ever seen it read that way. But I don't think how you interpret that relavant to the Level Adjustment project since we can build the half-dragon any way we want. Okay, I understand a bit more what you were doing, however, I still disagree. If there's no restiction on multicasting, there's no reason to give them a bonus. Your opinion is noted. I would appriciate more feedback on this though, esspecially considering my opinion isn't really in agreement with yours. I think more opinions will be able to give us more perspective on this.
Sphyre 10-15-04, 10:06 PM	Can someone put me in my straight-jacket, now? . . . please. . . ? Spell Point Sorcerer Please check for balance. I am a 'she.' It would be nice to be refered to as a 'she.' If you want, 'it' works too. An Iloveme Jacket™? :D I don't see how you could settle for "it," It's not like you're an object or anything... ... of course a majority of society would disagree with me. :rolleyes:
jagggar 10-15-04, 10:16 PM	My sincerest appologies. I meant no offense. I attempt to use gender neutral pronouns ussually... I guess I just slipped there. :cookie: I baked you some cookies as a sign of condolences.*giggles* Hehe. It's cool. Happens quite a bit. *adds gender specification to sig* This is exactly why I avoided putting down specific examples - because I knew I wasn't going to think of everything in the first post. I'm trying to express the concept of an ability here. You know exactly what I meant when I gave you the example but you went into balancing issues which is totally not the point of it at the moment. I could say 1d20/hd and it shows the same concept I was expressing without showing any semblance of balance. If you're also going to look at that point.... a halfdragon can only use his breathweapon once a day, while a dragon it's once every 1d4 rounds.I like variables. . . XdY Damage. . . I think it would be harder to make any of this stuff more template like. I don't think altering things is a good idea beyond spliting stuff into reasonable amounts of power gains per level. Hence another reason why I'm not quite so sure about that idea of scaling damage for the half-dragon. Good point on the frequency. I completely disagree on the argument of flavor. If you want flavor, then you're going to be much happier with the SS progression and LAs. Why? because you get hitdice and stuff.... this project is based around balance and as such has to sacrifice a little flavor. Besides... how does adding 1d4 hitdice to your hp as opposed to 1d8 constitute any more flavor? It's a game mechanic. Dragons don't go around saying "hey, i have a d12 hitdie, so that means i'm buff""What's easier to kill, a dragon or a kobold?" Random Fighter: o.0; You have to ask? I meant in reference to taking a non-scaling breathweapon as opposed to a scaling one. Mechanics should reflect flavor though. Dragons are tougher to kill than a normal monster or such. One way that's represented is by the size of the HD. Hm. I can't say I've ever seen it read that way. But I don't think how you interpret that relavant to the Level Adjustment project since we can build the half-dragon any way we want. Either way, started a topic for that idea. Good-bye this topic. Your opinion is noted. I would appriciate more feedback on this though, esspecially considering my opinion isn't really in agreement with yours. I think more opinions will be able to give us more perspective on this.You mean from others, right? Yeah. . .
Sphyre 10-15-04, 10:24 PM	You mean from others, right? Yeah. . . :P
jagggar 10-15-04, 10:35 PM	I can go for 'it' because of a debate I had with a friend once. Partially reguarding the lack of a gender-neutral personal pronoun in the English language. Would you like reasons from me for why I don't care for the idea of using the d4 HD? Or are you pretty much settled on it so that it wouldn't work no matter how much I said?
Vintar 10-16-04, 12:41 AM	I can go for 'it' because of a debate I had with a friend once. Partially reguarding the lack of a gender-neutral personal pronoun in the English language. Actually - technically if the gender is not known or one is referring to a gender-neutral role one should use the male pronoun as default. A small technicality of the English language - unless its been changed in the last couple years to be more politically correct. :confused: -Actually kinda bugs me how the 3.5 books are grammarically incorrect that way by using the female pronouns in neutral roles. (Not trying to be sexist - just my OCD personality had to say something) On a side note - for the races with bonus to Con - the fact that they get small racial hitdie is only fair. Since there will be no LAs to boost the HP of the basic human in comparison - only chance human fighter will have the same ballpark of hitpoints. Example - An ogre mage has +6 to Con. If he had a base Con of 10 his d4 hitdie will average out giving him 5.5 hitpoints per level. A human fighter with a Con of 10 and a d10 hitdie will average 5.5 hitpoints per level. Not to mention the fact that once the ogre mage takes a level in fighter he averages 8.5 hitpoints per level. Only exception to the d4 rule that I can see would be undead things - who should get higher since they get no Con bonus - and therefore would always average a mere 2.5 hitpoints per level. edit: As I look closer at half-dragon: should probably be a d6 hitdie considering the rule that racial hitdie of a dragon go up a notch.
jagggar 10-16-04, 12:55 AM	Actually - technically if the gender is not known or one is referring to a gender-neutral role one should use the male pronoun as default. A small technicality of the English language - unless its been changed in the last couple years to be more politically correct. :confused: -Actually kinda bugs me how the 3.5 books are grammarically incorrect that way by using the female pronouns in neutral roles. (Not trying to be sexist - just my OCD personality had to say something)Heck, be sexist all you want when it comes to pronouns. I remember seeing a topic about the pronouns used in the 3.X books. I was gunna reply and said that I was female and found it annoying that there was so much use of the word 'she.' Someone figured it out that the pronoun they use usually refers to the gender of the iconic character. (Topic was closed before I could reply, IIRC.) Debate with friend was actually on the "gender of God" kind of thing. I said that there wasn't a gender-neutral personal pronoun hence the reason the Bible refers to God as 'He' all the time and he said that 'it' was gender neutral and I emphasised the PERSONAL part. Don't remember any conclusions, but yeah. . . That's not really for discussion. . . Vintar, any thoughts about the pros/cons of the Class Bonus thing in the light of Sphyre's and my opinions?
smrtgmp 10-16-04, 01:19 AM	:rant: I'M A GIRL!!! :rant: Women on the D&D site? What is the world coming to? Next thing you know they'll be voting.;)
jagggar 10-16-04, 02:41 AM	Women on the D&D site? What is the world coming to? Next thing you know they'll be voting.;)Nope, need an absentee ballet first. Back to the subject at hand. . .
smrtgmp 10-16-04, 06:27 AM	Sorry if I offended you. I was, of course, just kidding. This game needs all the women it can get. :D
Vintar 10-16-04, 07:09 AM	How often or even if we have a class bonus depends in part what we are going for. If we want a racial progression that you can viably do right from the get go and continue till your done - we need every other level. If we want something that you go through at the same time you have a pure class and approx. the same rate - then go for every third. If you want something to dip in for extra abilities every now and then - go for no class bonus. Personally - I'm all for the first choice. However - I'm obviously not the only one on this board - so I leave the choice to the general concenous. Just a quick word of warning when comparing and contrasting - remember to compare and contrast throughout the levels - not just the end product. As well - since we are using hitdie and BaB I think it would be easy to make the progressions with more stat bonuses than abilities overpowered. Example - back to the ogre mage in my previous post. If you were to squish his race into eight levels without class progression (don't quote me on that) then he'll have way more HP than the human fighter by level 10. As well - in seven levels he'll gain 4 BaB and +10 strength. A bonus to hit of 1 over the fighter and five extra damage. Not to mention better will save - more skills - being large - regeneration - spell-like abilitiesOnly disadvantage would be fewer attacks. Personally - I think that though the ability laden races could be reasonably done without class bonuses as dipping levels - but I think the ones that are primarily stat based changes need to be spread out over more levels and have class boosts - unless we want to give no BaB and no hitdice (maybe give ability that spells etc. count as them having more hitdice). Might as well go back to LA. Just my $0.02 - or at least its equivelent in Republican credits. :cool:
Green 10-16-04, 08:57 AM	I guess this means nobody liked my bloodlines idea. C'est le vie.
jagggar 10-16-04, 09:36 AM	I am so very offended. I should have listened when they said D&D was evil. How often or even if we have a class bonus depends in part what we are going for. If we want a racial progression that you can viably do right from the get go and continue till your done - we need every other level. If we want something that you go through at the same time you have a pure class and approx. the same rate - then go for every third. If you want something to dip in for extra abilities every now and then - go for no class bonus. Personally - I'm all for the first choice. However - I'm obviously not the only one on this board - so I leave the choice to the general concenous. Just a quick word of warning when comparing and contrasting - remember to compare and contrast throughout the levels - not just the end product.*starts convincing act* Like I said before, players will know what they want. They'll know if they want class features as opposed to racial abilities and multiclass then. If these racial progressions are going to be balanced, then why would one need to take class levels or need class abilities? One should be able to progress first and foremost in racial levels, dipping into class levels. As well - since we are using hitdie and BaB I think it would be easy to make the progressions with more stat bonuses than abilities overpowered. Example - back to the ogre mage in my previous post. If you were to squish his race into eight levels without class progression (don't quote me on that) then he'll have way more HP than the human fighter by level 10. As well - in seven levels he'll gain 4 BaB and +10 strength. A bonus to hit of 1 over the fighter and five extra damage. Not to mention better will save - more skills - being large - regeneration - spell-like abilitiesOnly disadvantage would be fewer attacks. Personally - I think that though the ability laden races could be reasonably done without class bonuses as dipping levels - but I think the ones that are primarily stat based changes need to be spread out over more levels and have class boosts - unless we want to give no BaB and no hitdice (maybe give ability that spells etc. count as them having more hitdice). Might as well go back to LA. Just my $0.02 - or at least its equivelent in Republican credits. :cool:How is adding stuff to progressions going to be productive? If squishing ogremage into 8 levels is too much power, then try 10. Too powerful? Keep going up. . . (Specificly for the ogre mage, the SRD says it has a +7 LA, so I wouldn't try to squish it into fewer levels than it's current ECL of 12.) Oh, and someone please tell me that we will be keeping size increases. Are NPC monsters going to be taken straight from the book still? This is one of the things that concerns me about using the d4 HD for everything. Unless the cultural implications of being a monster are changed, I'd say quite a few could be hunted for being of whatever race. This low HD could hurt creatures which normally have much higher HD since the hunters would be ready to battle the normal type with larger HD. That's ignoring the DM's job to make sure an encounter isn't uberoverkill.
jagggar 10-16-04, 09:48 AM	I guess this means nobody liked my bloodlines idea. C'est le vie.It's not a bad idea, it's just not the right idea for this. I do like the human cultural bloodline idea.
jagggar 10-16-04, 12:32 PM	(Yay triple post. . .) Centaur Racial Traits: +2 Dex, -2 Int Speed 40 ft Darkvision 60 ft Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: Listen (Wis), Move Silently(Dex), Spot(Wis), and Survival(Wis). Skills Points per Level: (2 + Int modifier) Fort Ref Will Level BAB Save Save Save Special 1 +1 +0 +2 +2 +1 natural armor, 2 hooves 1d4 2 +2 +0 +3 +3 +1 natural armor, +2 Str 3 +3 +1 +3 +3 +1 natural armor, +2 Wis 4 +4 +1 +4 +4 +2 Str, +2 Con 5 +5 +1 +4 +4 +2 Str, +2 Dex 6 +6/+1 +2 +5 +5 +2 Str, +2 Con 7 +7/+2 +2 +5 +5 Speed 50 ft 8 +8/+3 +2 +6 +6 Large size (face 10 ft, reach 5 ft), 2 hooves 1d6Class Features Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Centaurs are proficient with all simple weapons, the heavy lance, and the mighty composite longbow. Centaurs are not proficient with armor or shields. Specific example, I know. It takes one more level to complete than the SS centaur. I was going for 8 levels, but I didn't know how to do that without creating a level of nothingness.
Sphyre 10-16-04, 09:55 PM	If we used that progression, why would a fighter ever be a fighter? Why would a wizard ever take a level or two in it? We went in the subject before that monster races probably shouldn't have full BAB, are you challenging that statement?
jagggar 10-16-04, 11:25 PM	I never actually agreed to that. . . I think you were still fuming from thinking I was saying the project wasn't a good idea. You rolled well on your intimidate check so I hid. Why play a Fighter instead of a Barbarian? They've got a d12 HD. Why play a Fighter instead of a Paladin? They've got a bunch of cool magic stuff and a free horse later. Why play a Fighter instead of a Wizard? You don't get any kick butt spells. Unless I'm mistaken, this project isn't going to force DMs to allow players to take non-core/PC races. A DM could write a list of allowed races and say everything else isn't allowed. Beyond my usage of Monsterous Humanoid HD, do you have any other problems with it? Edit: Added material below. What if I made it a 6 level progression with about 30 HP (caluclated with Con 14 after bonuses) (fighter 38 using Con 10), BAB +4, fort +1, ref and will +4? Would that be better?
gen_tora 10-17-04, 08:12 AM	Well here is an idea I use for my "drow players" spell-like abilities are given based on 2 things... 1) Caster level as if PC was a sorcerer... Example: Darkness is a 2nd level spell. Thus a sorcerer could cast it at level 4, thus a drow warrior "learns" the spell at characer level 4. No level adjustment for it. 2) Ability score for said ability... Again the drow fighter at 4th level needs a 12 in charima to "activate" the spell-like ability. Do note I have house rules dealing with spell-resistance that wouldn't fall into the conversation. Atleast, not at this time. But, I'll explain that one as well. A PCs spell resistance can not exceed his or her wisdom bonus. A drow warrior with a 14 Wisdom at level 16 only have SR of 14.
jagggar 10-17-04, 10:35 AM	Think I kinda like your drow idea for the spell-like abilities. Like you said, don't know about the SR. ------------------------ Thought about multiclassing: If multiclassing might be a problem, having characters never advance in their racial level, I thought up a couple of things that we could do reguarding that problem. (It does kind of seem a long jump from "You can't do anything else untill this is done" to "Do whatever you feel like, you just look different.") Make leveling like the Tainted Sorcerer from UA (really just the blood caster from OA minus any flavor references). Whenever they level, they have to make a Will save (10 + Taint Score) to level in another class. We don't have taint, but it could be (10 + Total Levels Racial Class Possesses). Second idea: Same sort of system except that each time the character levels up they use a d20. If the race they are has 9 racial levels and they have none so far, any roll of 1-9 will result in them being forced to level as their race. After that, they have 8 levels left to go so if they roll 1-8 they have to take a racial level. Progress continues as such. Something I saw on the SS board a while back really interested me. Characters could multiclass before completing their racial levels. Their racial class was their only favored class. Once a character completed his racial progression, there was an ability gained that made the 3.0 favored class of the creature an additional favored class.
Sphyre 10-17-04, 06:00 PM	I never actually agreed to that. . . I think you were still fuming from thinking I was saying the project wasn't a good idea. You rolled well on your intimidate check so I hid. :rofl: Then I guess that warrants the question... if you don't think the project is a good idea... then why are you posting? This is a project for those who want to fix the issues they see with the current LA system... I don't see how someone without a problem would "waste" their time here...
jagggar 10-17-04, 06:12 PM	:rofl: Then I guess that warrants the question... if you don't think the project is a good idea... then why are you posting? This is a project for those who want to fix the issues they see with the current LA system... I don't see how someone without a problem would "waste" their time here...I said you were thinking I didn't think it was a good idea. You went off on a rant on me, remember? I think it's a good idea, I just don't think you're going at it right on some of the angles/issues. Anyway, I repeat in reguards to my Centaur progression: What if I made it a 6 level progression with about 30 HP (caluclated with Con 14 after bonuses) (fighter 38 using Con 10), BAB +4, fort +1, ref and will +4? Would that be better?
Sphyre 10-17-04, 08:06 PM	If you haven't noticed my current lack of responses as of late that might help explain why I don't remember... I haven't really been here. If then, we keep the hitdice exactly how they are - by type - how do your propose to balance creatures of outsider and dragon type? I would think that since these races tend to be high LA high hitdie creatures that their levels be halved... for example outsider now has d4 hitdie and poor BAB - so it takes 2 levels to gain the d8 +1 BAB bonus sort of thing and dragons would be down to d6 hitdie and poor BAB - so it takes 2 levels to gain the d12 hitdie and +1 BAB.... So this goes more in line with the "case by case" scenario... but I'm still at a loss of what to do with the saves...
jagggar 10-17-04, 08:23 PM	But on the case of the centaur, just the centaur, what do you think about making it a 6 level progression with about 30 HP (caluclated with Con 14 after bonuses vs, fighter's 38 HP using Con 10), BAB +4, fort +1, ref and will +4? Would that be better than the progression I showed? I think I may have seen a medium save variant somewhere.
{SG}Veldrin 10-18-04, 11:02 AM	How about just keeping the LA, and give the character an number of HD`s equal to the LA. The HD`s wont affect character level, and theres no progression (u need to join a 3th level party if you are a drow, cause u would have 2 racial hds and a level in a class). The HD would give: Medium Bab progression, d8 HD, 2 skillpoints + int mod pr HD, slow progression on all saves, the HD`s count towards getting feats pr 3rd lvls and you would get +1 caster lvl pr/ 2 LA`s. It wont particulary make you a better fighter (medium bab), it wont particulary give you more hps, it wont give you any reasonably good saves or skillpoints, and it wont make you that much better a caster. As for templates im a little more for the "levling" up as the race (eg. u can level up to lvl 4 Lich), as detailed in Unearthed Arcana. This gives the race a little more hps at low lvls to help him stay alive, and doesnt hamper the spellcasting to much. It might still be unbalancing, now giving the one with the race a little more advantages but not giving it a good lvl/lvls in any class, not sure, depends on the race in question I would guess.
Mentar 10-18-04, 02:26 PM	I had a really hard time understanding SS and still can't understand most of it... I like the way you are working on it but it is getting confusing to me. If I take a race with more LA then HD I loose out on my class abilities in exchange for more HP? I need to use an example so I will use SS to create a race not in the MM called a Blorg The standard monster blorg is medium sized, has 5HD, -4 STR, +8 DEX, -4 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, has a natural AC +3, ground speed 20, fly speed 40 good manuverability, Cold resistance 5, 20% vulnerability to fire, wings, and frail bones (not a listed disadvantage but it has an effect listed later). Resistance and vulnerability would balance out, natural armor +1LA, fly speed +1LA, manuverability +1LA, unbalanced stats +1LA, and frail bones -1LA (will explain later) for a total of +3LA With 5HD and 3LA it should be spread out to 8 levels. At character creation (level 1 group) it would be Monster Level (ML)1 and gain the initial racial abilities (balanced out to) -4 STR, +2 DEX, -4 CON, +1 INT, +1 WIS, Fly speed 20, adverage manuverability, cold resistance 2, fire vulnerability 20%, Frail bones. ML 2 would give 1HD and +1 DEX ML 3 would give 1/2HD (1d4) natural AC +1 ML 4 would give 1/2HD (1d4) +1DEX Cold resist +1 ML 5 would give 1/2HD (1d4) +1DEX natural AC +1 ML 6 would give 1/2HD (1d4) +1DEX Cold resist +1 ML 7 would give 1/2HD (1d4) +1DEX +1INT Natural AC +1 ML 8 would give 1/2HD (1d4) +1DEX +1WIS Cold resist +1 Manuverability good Does that sound about right? Frail bones: The bones of the blorg's body are thin and hollow to allow for flight, however it also means that the bones are easily crushed and reduces the weight limits of the blorg as if it was 4 STR lower then it actually is. Wings: The Blorg has wings sprouting from it's back in addition to the normal arms, preventing the wear of backpacks. All armor and clothing must be tailor made with this in mind. Now, by an adjusted use of the SS this places the Blorg at 8th level with practically no class abilities, IF the PC wanted to be a wizard he could inject levels of wizard among the racial growth, but even with that he would be weaker then the human even with his abilities. Now, as I understand it your "Class Bonus" idea would give an effective level in EITHER casting level OR spells per day every other level, which would still make the blorg weaker then the human in casting but allow for greater manuverability and AC. Did I understand the basics correctly?
Sphyre 10-18-04, 11:50 PM	Alright. Let me mention something here. It will NOT be too complicated for the players. All the complicated mechanics are at the creation side, and then streamlined into a nice easy mechanic for the players. The most they will ever have to do is check to see how many hitdice they have.to determine the quality of an ability. Mentar, there's no such thing as a half hitdie. With this system you gain a new hitdie each level. Right now we're determining the quality of that hitdie though. The 3 different quality systems look like this:: Your hitdie advances by your type. Problem: Some types have clearly superior types, Dragon type is arguably more superior than taking fighter levels. This system biased Fighters. Your hitdie advances by d4, low BAB, 2 skill points. Issue: Racial levels turn into dipping classes. You'll never be fully like the real creature you're advancing as. New! - Dragons and Outsiders get reduced hitdice, but all other races stay as is. This deals with the issues of Dragons and Outsiders without changing the balance of non-dragon non-outsiders. Looks like me the third is going to be a happy medium. The Class boost system is in to stay with this progression method. It's not shoving any abilities down anyone's throat, rather it's making racial casters a REASON to take monsterous levels. I am considering though, cutting down the progression to 1 class boost every 3 levels, as to not upset the balance of the racial progressions. I came up with a favored class idea, thanks to jagggar's confusion. All class boosts must be taken in respect to a class that you have, or that class boost must be your favored class. This means an elf could gain class boosts in wizard, if he were a rogue. This makes me think it might be slightly over powered so I would like a hand count for moving them to every third level.
jagggar 10-18-04, 11:57 PM	And if the character only has racial levels? And it's a race that didn't even have a favored class in 3.0? Will be repeating this question until answered: Would you be okay with a 6 level Centaur progression that gave about 30 HP, +4 BAB, +1 fort, +4 will and reflex?
Sphyre 10-19-04, 12:52 AM	And if the character only has racial levels? And it's a race that didn't even have a favored class in 3.0? Well if it has no favored class... it doesn't reap the benefit... If it has only racial levels... it can take only it's favored class if it has neither... it's still retroactive, so once you take a class, you get the bonuses. Will be repeating this question until answered: Would you be okay with a 6 level Centaur progression that gave about 30 HP, +4 BAB, +1 fort, +4 will and reflex? how would it have that? that looks almost exactly like the MM centaur, with 4d8 hp, down to the saves.... that's full bab with a level adjustment to make it be 2/3. Going back to the LA system isn't the solution I'm looking for. :(
jagggar 10-19-04, 12:55 AM	Drat, hoped you wouldn't look. . . That Centaur's already behind in HP. Why should 'our centaur' be even further behind a fighter in HP?
Sphyre 10-19-04, 01:08 AM	Drat, hoped you wouldn't look. . . That Centaur's already behind in HP. Why should 'our centaur' be even further behind a fighter in HP? Look? I'd be pretty damn blind if i didn't notice that 4/6 was not a BAB progression, or 1/4/4 was not a save progression across 6 hitdice :P The question, though, is if you're fine with the LA method as is, trying to trick me into saying it's alright as is, what can you possibly contribute to it other than "keep it the same?" As for your question, let me propose a counter question, why should he be just as good or better of a fighter than a pure human fighter due to the extra strength? Oh and his con is higher too so he beats out a fighter there to... higher dex. beats out the fighter there too... all he's doing is giving up some bonus feats... woopie. now it's a centaur who's dipping in fighter to be better than a fully trained fighter...
jagggar 10-19-04, 01:20 AM	30 HP was calcualted with the base 14 CON for a centaur. I am okay with LA. I do not think it is good system, the best it could be, but one that works for what it's meant to do. I would really like to come up with no LA classes though since Gestalt + LAs = no rulings. In general, a system without LA would be better than the LA system. A centaur of 6 levels using the d4 HD has 28 or 29 HP. If you go with only one good save, it'll be one higher as well as the already low save but the other save will suffer. Low BAB gives it a +3. It's got a few more skill points, but how much is that supposed to improve it? In such a case I'd proably go with the SS centaur and buy off LA and end up with two more class levels. Medium BAB is +4 at level 6. SS Class No LA d4 HD 4d8 6d4 HP+CON 29.5 28.5 BAB +4 +3(poor) (+4 medium) Fort +1 +2 Ref +4 +2/+5 Will +4 +5/+2 Skill (2+INT)x7 (2+INT)x9 Points Max Class 14 14 Level Max Class Level with 16 14 LA buyoff That's what it'd be if it was straight conversion. Likely not though. But still.
Sphyre 10-19-04, 09:20 AM	Ok... I got this neat idea while trying to get to sleep last night: First of all I was brainstorming ideas for the name of the class boost, here's what I came up with: Specialization Focus Talent Natural Aptitude Alright onto the idea: This goes along with the d4 hitdie method, poor bab with 1 good save and 2 skill points and all. Have the class bonus give one of the following: +1 caster/manifester level as if you gained a level in that class +.5 BAB (This, given at every other level turns the already poor BAB into medium BAB, chart at the bottom if you don't understand...) 2 skill points other stuff not yet thought about I suppose not everything should have d4 hitdie/2 skill points but they all SHOULD have low BAB because high BAB is a class feature. Perhaps some things could have medium BAB which the class bonus allows you to boost it to high? I think making the class boost give a BAB option makes the races much more customizable. BAB chart: Level PoorBAB Boost TotalBAB AvgBAB 1 .5 .5 0 2 1 +.5 1.5 1 3 1.5 +.5 2 2 4 2 +1.0 3 3 5 2.5 +1.0 3.5 3 6 3.0 +1.5 4.5 4 7 3.5 +1.5 5 5 8 4.0 +2.0 6/1 6/1 9 4.5 +2.0 6.5/1.5 6/1 10 5.0 +2.5 7.5/2.5 7/2 All BAB and BAB boosts are cumulative. BAB boosts are when you take your class boost, the even levels.
jagggar 10-19-04, 10:18 AM	:banghead: How do I forget I have stuff like this? http://www.dndworld.com/3e/classes/classconstruction.pdf We could calculate each HD, and I wouldn't oppose asking people how much they'd rate things like +2 stat using that system. Gotta go speak publicly, so will return and figure some classes out then. Though I will admit the BAB is a kinda cool idea.
Mentar 10-19-04, 08:51 PM	I understand there is no such thing as half a hit die, I was just using 1d8 as a standard monster HD and showing that, to balance it with the parent creature, you could divide it out to see how many d4 HD and how many D8 HD you would need. This could also be used for dragons calculating D6 and D12 as needed. I just wanted to see if I understood the basic way of breaking down the racial levels, and to check what you ment by the class bonus. Is it caster level OR spells per level, or do you add both? And what do you give for a non-caster type? Other then those questions it looks almost ready for me to print and use. If it's giving half the class benifit I would keep it at every other level, if it uses both I would make it every third level.
Sphyre 10-19-04, 10:48 PM	Is it caster level OR spells per level, or do you add both? And what do you give for a non-caster type? This has been asked before. It's just like the +1 level as if you gained a level in the class like PRCs work. With the addition of +.5 BAB turning poor BAB into medium BAB being an option and turning medium BAB into full I think that's quite on par with making a caster lose half it's caster ability when taking racial levels. Barbarian: Full BAB Bard: Skill points/Casting Cleric: Casting Druid: Casting Fighter: Full BAB Monk: Good saves Paladin: Full BAB Ranger: Full BAB Rogue: Sneak Attack/Skill points Sorcerer: Casting Wizard: Casting If you notice... those are some of the major class features of the core classes. It's not a completely comprehensive list, but it kind of allows you to talor your race to your concept.
jagggar 10-19-04, 11:02 PM	Hmm, that could be something to think about. What if a player is playing a fighter of a race that normally only gets poor BAB? Would he be allowed to improve his BAB? Go ahead and IM me if ya want, I think I'll be on for a while. Yay boring depression paper.
Vintar 10-20-04, 12:40 AM	A centaur of 6 levels using the d4 HD has 28 or 29 HP. If you go with only one good save, it'll be one higher as well as the already low save but the other save will suffer. Actually - if he has a base Con. of 14 - then he'll have an average of 39 HP after level 6. The human fighter with a Con of 14 has 45 HP: not that huge of a difference. Anyway - now that my OCD juices are done I thought I'd run a race balance by you guys. I'm not sure exactly how balanced this is - just thought we should start with a toughy. As well as the gained template issue. With no further adu - I give to you my vampire. This is for adventurers that pass a Will check or have some other way to combat turning into a vampire immediatly. Often giving them time to dispatch the vampire bit them in the first place. However - they will continue along the vampire path - though slower than they would have since they never had a fully formed link to the original vampire. The first level is gained immediatly and sacrifices a previously gained level- others are gained once a week at the sacrifice of levels in previously gained classes unless the afflicted passes a Will check against the original vampire (whether he is still alive or not) and increases by +2 if you passed your previous test, +4 if you passed the two previous tests etc. Oh - and yes the first couple levels are meant to be weak - you appear to be getting steadily sicker to those around you. If you ever take a level intentionally before the original vampire is dead you gain the evil alignment - or if you come under control of your original vampire. If you ever gain a level intentionally you become neutral. Possible to have a full powered good vampire - most likely satisfies his hunger by other's donation. Example - become lord and have taxes include a pint of blood given once per year (drained before drunk so as not to infect the victim). Level 1: 1d12 hitdie +0 Bab -2 Con +1 natural armor Level 2: 1d12 hitdie +1 Bab +1 Class bonus -2 Con Improved Initiative Level 3: 1d12 hitdie +1 Bab +1 natural armor +2 Str Alertness Light Sensitivity Level 4: 1d12 hitdie +2 Bab +1 Class bonus - can no longer swim unless has a racial swim speed Level 5: no hitdie +2 Bab +1 natural armor +2 Dex +2 Str Cha set to 10 if not already there or higher +2 Int +3 level for turning gaseous form for 10 min. per day able to be held off by mirrors/holy symbols and doesn't have a reflection / all skills/saves that previously used Con now use Cha Damage Reduction = 5/magic and silver Fast healing 1. Lightning Reflexes Stake through the heart kills. Can only make partial actions in sunlight. Doesn't die permanently if can make it to coffin. Undead Subtype. Level 6: 1d12 hitdie +3 Bab +1 class bonus +2 Cha drain 1 Con. point Add Charisma bonus +1 to all saving throws Dodge Level 7: 1d12 hitdie +3 Bab +1 natural armor / slam attack and 1 level energy drain gain one spellcaster level in any arcane (player's choice) Combat Reflexes the smell of garlic is intolerable Fast healing 2 Level 8: 1d12 hitdie +4 Bab +1 class bonus +2 Cha 1d2 Con drain gaseous form = 30 min/day Vampire loses 1/4 of HP each round in sunlight after first. Level 9: no hitdie +4 Bab +1 natural armor +2 Str. +2 Dex Call 1d2 bat swarms or 1d3 rat swarms or 1d6 wolves. Dominate with gaze (standard action) caster level = vampire level turning= +4 levels +4 to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Running water weaknesses. Can't enter anywhere unless invited. Fast healing 3 Level 10:1d12 hitdie +5 Bab +1 class bonus 1d4 con drain - able to create vampire spawn (count as hirelings) Level 11:1d12 hitdie +5 Bab energy drain = 2 levels additional spellcaster level in the same class as level 7 Lightning Reflexes +2 Wis Fast healing 4 Level 12:1d12 hitdie +6 Bab +1 class level call the normal # of swarms/wolves +8 to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Damage Reduction = 10/magic and silver Sunlight kills after first round. Fast healing 5 Skills: Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge nobility, Knowledge Local, Knowledge Religion, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. 4+ Int. modifier Just a rough draft. But I thought that if we can handle this we can tackle anything. Left out 2 hitdie because vamp has so many abilities/ after one round of energy drain - at equal level. Plus - undead substype gives so many immunities to spells that I believe a big chunck where that matters are no longer valid. Saves don't improve (ability counts towards saves - a total of a min. of +3 (only a touch under poor save))
Sphyre 10-20-04, 02:19 AM	Hmm, that could be something to think about. What if a player is playing a fighter of a race that normally only gets poor BAB? Would he be allowed to improve his BAB? Yes. Idea: Perhaps a conversion method can be things with Poor and Medium BAB go down to Poor BAB, and those with full BAB go down to medium so they have to use the class boosts to get it to full. Comments?
Vintar 10-20-04, 09:01 AM	If they can get it to full Bab - I think the races might get overpowered. Personally - I think that the combat type races could possibly get mid Bab - with the less combat based ones (Mind Flayer, Racksha) getting low. Maybe the less combat based ones could get spellcaster levels to make up for this. Remember - 3 things we are going for on this if I understand correctly. Making the high LA races viable, not making them overly powerful, and not making them longer than they have to. I think full Bab would make the latter 2 significantly more difficult - as then a race with much of a strength and Con bonus would have more raw power than the human fighter - plain and simple.
jagggar 10-20-04, 09:02 AM	Well you know how I feel about class boost. . . This just confirms more of it. No pretty progression for Vampire (with code tags)? Have to seperate it out later. Do you mean no save progression at all? The base base Con was 10. The Con 14 was after racial modifiers, hence using Fighter Con as 10.
Vintar 10-20-04, 11:36 AM	Yes - no save progression - maybe add a point or two later on - one reason I put it on the board - for balancing. :D Check ability at level 6 before you chew me out too much though - by the end it will add a min. of +4 to Will saves (3 for bonus at level 6 and 1 for wisdom) a min of +5 to reflex including the Dex bonus - and have no idea how Fort. will turn out with Con being replaced by Cha as modifier.
Vintar 10-20-04, 11:44 AM	Not to mention how many things no longer affect vampires. Also one thing to remember - if they seem a touch overpowered even with the disadvantages - remember how annoying it would be to be turned. You have to go hide in a corner for a full minute - with no save allowed.
jagggar 10-20-04, 02:43 PM	Haven't read it all and such, but I'm thinking it is definately missing something: Blood drain. What vampire can't? It's essential to the concept here. Have you changed the rules for creating a new vampire? If that's the case, then they need to be written, otherwise, no new vampires.
Sphyre 10-20-04, 06:17 PM	Well you know how I feel about class boost. . . This just confirms more of it. See... there's two ends of that sword: One end you get it faster but almost no caster would EVER take racial levels, and only melee taking it. The other end is casters and melee taking it by choice. I personally see the small class boost as not a problem in balancing. It lets you customize your racial levels a little bit as opposed being forced into it. All else fails... you're good on skills and caster ability... put it into BAB, and now you have medium BAB which helps everyone except the wizard/sorcerer who would take caster levels anyway. I think it's pretty clear that allowing full BAB is a balance problem and that all racial levels should be reduced to poor BAB with the class boost to bring it to medium, out of virtue of removing the LA.
jagggar 10-20-04, 07:33 PM	It lets you customize your racial levels a little bit as opposed being forced into it.Of course, if we're not forcing one to take the whole racial class before anything else, nothing is being forced on them. If you want to be an awesome caster and use something that's generally a tank, that should mean one of what I'm thinking is three things: You're creating a multiclass caster/tank from that, you wouldn't be going full caster anyway. You want to role play it without having the penalties that LA gives you. You're stupid because it would be a better idea to go with a different race for a pure caster.
Qmark 10-21-04, 02:12 AM	You people are all crazy. You realize this right? (I mean this in a good way) After finally learning 3e after years of D&D and AD&D 1E & 2E (as simple as d20 is, it's a pain to jump into after memorizing thac0 tables), I can see what the complaint is. The problem is not that level adjustment nerfs casters, it's that spell-casting classes themselves are fundamentally busted. As a gross example of my point, let's look at the 2e supplement Council of Wyrms, aka the "Let's all play dragons!" box. To be a 2nd level 'wizard', a gold dragon needs 1000000 (yes, a million) XP. This gives our Gold Dragon Wizard all of the rediculous combat abilities of a very young Gold (although with crappy attack rolls for a dragon), 12 hit dice, and two 1st-level spells and one 2nd-level spell. At a million XP (in 2e), our human wizard has all of the crappy combat abilities of a human wizard and a meager 10d4+3 hp, but a damn good amount of magical firepower (4/4/4/4/4/1) Maybe, just maybe spell levels should be linked to something other than 'level', perhaps along with a Base Attack Score, there should be a Base Casting Ability or something. Or it could just be that they expect a big meaty monster to be more prone to just outright maul someting to death rather than disintegrate it. Hell, I'm probably just rambling. But, the point is that the smaller squishier races have been able to stack up spellpower much faster than the big beefy baddies since forever. If you want to fix races to make them comparable in blowing stuff up, it would be alot easier to figure out a generalized and easily scable method for spellcasting than it would be to shoehorn each and every monster race individually.
jagggar 10-21-04, 02:46 AM	Well, there is a variant in UA that gives each class a magic rating which is used in place of Caster Level. That I could see doing. I'll have to type it up next week probably since I'm going home Friday and won't be back till Tuesday night (maybe even Wednesday morning!) and I've got quite a bit to do for school currently. Minus the prettyness. . . A. Looks like Good BAB. Used for Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Fey, and Outsider. B. Looks like Poor BAB. Used for Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Aberration, Dragon, Elemental, and undead. C. 1-3: 0, 4-7: 1, 8-11: 2, 12-15: 3, 16-19: 4, 20: 5. Used for Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, all other monster HD. There's a few exceptions, but that's basically it.
Vintar 10-21-04, 01:01 PM	Haven't read it all and such, but I'm thinking it is definately missing something: Blood drain. What vampire can't? It's essential to the concept here. Have you changed the rules for creating a new vampire? If that's the case, then they need to be written, otherwise, no new vampires. It's there - just called Con drain. In refrence to an increasing amount of Con it drains.
jagggar 10-21-04, 01:07 PM	Oh, okay. It's hidden very well. Too well. Don't think you could possibly make it prettier to look at, could you? And then with final totals?
Vintar 10-21-04, 07:15 PM	Ends up with all the same powers - plus the Cha. +1 bonus to saves. gets 10 hitdice in 12 levels (puts on par with NPC vamps with hitdice) and gets all the same stat bonuses and +6BaB. 6 class level bonuses and an additional 2 spellcaster levels. (Makes spellcaster vampires possible - plus is good fluff for non-spellcaster vamps. Two levels definetly isn't gonna be overpowering since you only get level 1 spells.) Skills are just all the ones vamps get bonuses to - plus disguise. Thought that they would use a small amount of makeup to hide their feral vampuric looks.
Gilean 02-19-05, 11:21 AM	What works for PCs, works for NPCs. I, myself, prefer to remove LA and add racial HD so that class is balanced. Quite easy to increase monster HD, after all. This also results in HD = ECL = CR, which is as it should be. Have you read Szatany's ultimate classes? You should strive for something like that, so that every monster gains special ability that can be chosen from a list. Like ogre mage making a choice between different abilities, spell-like abilities, and regeneration. Add something like +1 effectrive sorcerer level, and there is no need of class boosts.
Korone 02-19-05, 11:52 AM	How about starting the monster at its CR and make it advance as a first lvl character? Said creature have a CR of say.. 7. To advance to CR 8, it would only need 1000xp. But it woudn't have any equipment, but these as a first character guy. The creature is mature as a human would be, no more, and start adventuring. It haven't learned anything, so why would it need much more Xp to learn something, when it have a really higher Int than the human, to learn the same things ? Just a thougth..
Jhak 02-19-05, 12:22 PM	I have been using a system for not too long now, but it appears to work. Step 1: A race is given abilities as though it was LA+0. Step 2: The remaining racial abilities are split evenly between Racial HD and LA. Step 3: A racial class is created from the racial HD, abilties becoming avaliable that were distributed into racial HD. The class levels avaliable are equal to the races HD before adjustments. Step 4: Ability sets are formed, a number of sets equal to the races LA. The abilties that were distributed to LA are split between the ability sets. The levels that Ability Sets are made availiable vary depending on LA, and an XP cost equal to that level x1000 must be paid to attain the abilties with it. LA-Ability set levels 1-3 2-6, 9 3-9, 15, 18 There are examples of how this works on my thread located here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=375817) This works well for races with LAs of 3 or less. Any higher and abilities don't become avaliable until epic levels. For anything higher that LA +3, its LA is effectivly reduced to +3 and the remaining LA converted into an appropriate number of HD. These HD are seperate from the original racial HD progression. On my thread there is an example of how this works with the Hound Archon, which can choose to gain levels in 'Hound', 'Archon', both or neither. I have play tested this system using the Lizardfolk and the Drow and have found it to be working very well so far.
Jhak 02-19-05, 01:32 PM	Mind Flayers Medium Size Base Land Speed 30ft Darkvision 60ft Natural Weapons: 4 tentacles (No damage) Extract- a mind flayer that has 4 tentacles attached to an unconscious opponents head can begin to extract that person’s brain. This deals d3 points of int, wis and cha damage for every 10 rounds that the tentacles are attached to the opponents head. This power is useless against constructs, elementals, oozes, plants and undead. The damage is halved (rounded down, minimum 1) against foes with multiple heads such as ettins and hydras. Automatic Languages: Common, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Infernal, Terran. Favoured Class: Wizard Mind Flayer Levels Hit Dice: d8 Base attack bonus equal to ¾ Level (as cleric) Good Will Saves Skill points equal to (2+Int modifier, minimum 1) per Level, with quadruple skill points at first level. Skills are Bluff, Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently and Spot. Proficient with all simple weapons and tentacles Mind Flayer, Telepath Level Special 1st Telepathy 10ft 2nd +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level 3rd Telepathy 20ft 4th +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level 5th Telepathy 30ft 6th +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level 7th Mind Blast, Telepathy 40ft 8th +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level Mind Flayer, Warrior Level Special 1st Tentacles (1) 2nd Improved Grab 3rd Tentacles (d2), +1 Natural Armour 4th +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level 5th Tentacles (d3), +1 Natural Armour 6th Improved/Greater Extract 7th Tentacles (d4), +1 Natural Armour 8th +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level Ability Set 1 Prerequisites: Level 9 or greater XP cost: 9,000 +4 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level Telepathy +20ft Power resistance 10 Ability Set 2 Prerequisites: Level 15 or greater, Ability Set 1 XP cost: 15,000 +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma +2 Constitution (Must be at least a 2nd level Mind Flayer, Warrior) +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level Telepathy +20ft Power resistance 20 Ability Set 3 Prerequisites: Level 18 or greater, Ability Set 2 XP cost: 18,000 +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma +2 Strength (Must be at least a 6th level Mind Flayer, Warrior) +1 Psion (telepath) manifester level Telepathy +20ft Power resistance 25+Class Levels Improved/Greater Extract Improved/Greater Extract When this ability is first gained (Improved), the damage from extract is applied every round instead of every 10 rounds, so long as the grapple is maintained the following round. In addition to this, the target need not be unconscious, and this effect causes d3 points of permanent con damage as well. The second time this ability is gained (Greater) it causes instant death, as described in the monster manual.
Gilean 02-20-05, 02:25 AM	Jhak, it isn't very nice to capture threads.
Jhak 02-20-05, 05:15 AM	Sorry, its just that I am pleased with my system and the way it is working and I'm just looking for some feedback. Also this is a thread on removing LA, and this is my contribution to it. I only placed a referance to my own thread here to provide some examples of how this system works. Again, I'm sorry and I didn't intend to 'capture' this thread.
Dunther the Great 02-20-05, 09:15 PM	Hi, I like the idea of removing LAs and this system seems to be just the thing. I noticed that the issue why someone would want fighter HD as opposed to being, say, dragon HD and how all that is being very problimatic. An idea I thought of to fix this is that racial HD do not help to gain Prestige classes, so there would still be some need to gain the plain old fighter classes. It might also balance out the "class boost"s as well. How does this sound?
Ravenous187 02-21-05, 04:37 AM	I am not a fan of LA so I will share the method I use to remove it. I believe creatures with LA should be powerful. I use XP Penalty for creatures with LA. LA | XP Penalty ============ 1----------10% 2----------20% 3----------30% 4----------40% 5----------50% 6----------55% 7----------60% 8----------65% 9----------70% 10---------75% Example: Party of 4 (Human Cleric 1, Elf Wizard 1, Half-Dragon Fighter 1, Assimar Paladin 1) The Human Cleric and the Elf Wizard would gain experience normally. The Half-Dragon Fighter would find things easier so he gets 30% xp less then the Human and Elf. The Assimar Paladin would also find things easier so he gets 10% less xp then the Human and Elf. Some like this method some don't .... just the way I deal with LA. Hope this helps. :)
mercurywyrm 02-21-05, 04:56 AM	Probably been said allready but I have an idea, why not an epic feat: Monsterous Drive[epic] [general]- You get closer to the hit dice of non monsterous PCs. Prerequisites: LA > 0 Benefit: Your LA is reduced by one. This likely causes you to gain a level. I think that paying for LA with feats could be appropriate at epic levels with epic feats. :)
Gilean 02-21-05, 11:07 AM	I noticed that the issue why someone would want fighter HD as opposed to being, say, dragon HD and how all that is being very problimatic. An idea I thought of to fix this is that racial HD do not help to gain Prestige classes, so there would still be some need to gain the plain old fighter classes. It might also balance out the "class boost"s as well. How does this sound?Too clumsy. And we have dragon PrCs in the Draconomicon. Is Sphyre still alive?
Dunther the Great 02-21-05, 11:49 AM	Too clumsy. And we have dragon PrCs in the Draconomicon. Is Sphyre still alive? I don't see how it would be too clumsy, you would simple see if you could get the PrCs as if you only had class levels. The dragon PrCs (and other in SS) could be done the other way, with only race levels. Though if there are too few race levels too qualify for a PrC we could just rule you would have to have all of them and make up the difference with class levels. And yeah, where are you Sphyre? This is a great system, don't leave it.
Gilean 03-02-05, 02:42 AM	I don't see how it would be too clumsy, you would simple see if you could get the PrCs as if you only had class levels.Start with skill points. Do characters have effective maximum skill rank for accessing PrCs? Or do they have different standard skill points and PrC skill points? Too clumsy.
ravidubey 03-23-05, 04:13 PM	Instead, just add the LA to the monstrous hit dice and you're done-- EXTREMELY SIMPLE. Problem with this is monsters (especially outsiders) become too awesome compared with fighters and weaker compared with casters, but those are the breaks. Spellcasting classes just aren't meant to be multiclassed-- unless you come up with a Theurge or Cerebromancer type of prestige class to mix with your monster class. This is why humanoid fantasy wizards are so powerful compared with monstrous versions. Otherwise the only way I can see to achieve what you are trying would be to apply #2: The Racial Trait Buy System first as a DM and then assign which levels each trait occurs on a progression chart that your players can then use. But if you do this you will find yourself RE-WRITING the D&D books (!), and even if you did this, you would find it many established creatures with ECl's shatter such a fair system and would have to be changed to ECL (--). Astral Devas, for example, are already more powerful in many ways beyond their book ECL of 20. Succubi with their +16 charisma bonuses would make unbelievably powerful blackguard anti-paladins or ridiculously unbeatable sorcerors. You could say a class/race type has a pool of ____ points to be assigned up until 20th level. Each class/race could expend more points in a specific level to denote some kind of rank. Also at 1st level more points would be expended to establish the class/race (basic immunities such as blindsight for an ooze, skill points). Points would be assigned to: Each point of save bonus increase for each type of save Each d4, d6, d8, d10 or d12 HD Each skill point Each feat (this should cost alot) Each class/race specific feat (this should cost slightly less than a feat) Each major class/race specific ability (this should cost a fortune) Each point of SR Each point of natural armor Each Arcane prepared spell slot (exponential per level) Each Arcane unprepared spell slot Each Divine spell slot Each Divine unprepared spell slot Each psionic power slot Each psionic power Point Each bonus point to Strength, Dex, or Con Each bonus point to Int, Wis, Cha Each point of DR (more for rare like adamant, less for common like magic) Each extraordinary, supernatural, spell-like power** -- alone this would take a book to classify each such kind of ability and ranks its points. Each specific saving throw bonus point (mind, fire, yada) Each point of energy resistance (more for fire, less for sonic) Each major immunity (fire, poison, paralysis, etc.) Each minor immunity (petrification, sonic, etc.) Each size category removed from medium Each degree of alignment restriction (remove points) Ground movement (no points +/- points for each square over/below 30) Air movement (highest base points for perfect, medium for poor + points for each square over 50) Burrow movement (high points + points for each square over 30) Swim movement (medium points + points for each square over 30) You'd ahave to factor in character wealth somehow, and there are likely more factors, but these are most of them.
Sphyre 04-18-05, 12:32 AM	Is Sphyre still alive? And yeah, where are you Sphyre? This is a great system, don't leave it. Thanks for the support guys. Unforunately I haven't even had enough time to log onto the forums in who knows how long. I'm currently employed full time and going to school full time and haven't gotten to play D&D for some time. After this quarter I should be down to just my full time job and I can dive back into the project. This was the first thread that I came back to check, so no, I haven't forgotten about it. See everyone in a few months.
blood_of_the_ancient 07-15-05, 03:11 PM	I saw the link to this place in your sig, Sphyre, and decided to check it out. You're idea is the precise one that I've been tumbling about in my mind for quite a while now. I didn't have time to read all the posts on the thread yet, although I'm half-way through it. My theory on the matter was to have a set of racial traits that are equal in power to one of the core races. First, I had to balance the core races to each other, or find that already done. I found it already done. Second, I needed to balance the core CLASSESto each other, or find it already done. I found it already done. Phantom_Lord's revised races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5957261) Note: I do not use the racial progressions he uses. The classes I found were Szatany's ULTIMATE classes (he revised all of the core classes, 3 of the four psionic classes, and made a few new ones: Adventurer, Incarnate, Knight, Nexus and Scourge). If anybody is interested in a link to one of those classes, PM me and I'll give it to you. The Knight, Scourge and Paladin have been erased from the boards, however, and are available for purchase as a pdf (a very cheap pdf, of course). If you're interested in the location of where to find the pdf, PM Szatany, or me. With those two things out of the way, I'm now at the point of finding this thread, which I hope to be of aid to. I created a tiefling progression already. Here it is... Tiefling Race > +2 intelligence, -2 charisma > +2 to bluff and hide > Cannot be ressurected except by a limited wish, wish, miracle, true ressurection or similar effect. > Fire resistance 5 > Automatic languages: Common and either infernal or abyssal. Tiefling Class Hit Die: d8 Base Attack Bonus: +(x) All Saving Throws: +(x/2+2) Defense Bonus: +(5x/6+1) Mana: 6 Level 1: Electricity and cold resistance 5, darkvision 60 feet. Level 2: +2 dexterity, Darkness Darkness: A tiefling2 can cast darkness by spending 6 mana (this counts as a spell-like ability; it cannot be affected by metamagic feats and the caster level for casting it is equal to the tiefling's total hit dice). If the tiefling takes another class that grants it more mana, it can spend it's 6 racial mana on the other spells, or spend the class mana on it's racial darkness ability. I'm implementing a mana system in my games too. Sorcerers will use it, as will my 'Arcanist' I am working on. So a tiefling sorcerer would effectively know a new spell. Now, using some ideas I've seen here, and ideas I've developed since making this class, here's a revised version... THE TIEFLING The fiends of the lower planes have nothing against mating with mortals of all species, producing powerful half-fiendish beings. These half-fiends often go on and mate with other mortals, and those offspring mate with more mortals, and so on and so forth, until the fiendish blood has been diluted for many generations. At this point, the offspring are no longer anywhere near the power of their half-fiendish ancestors, but still retain some small traces of the fiendish abilities their forefathers once had. DEVIL-BORN TIEFLING > +2 charisma. The devils of the lower planes are charismatic creatures by necessity, due to the political nature of Baator. > +2 to bluff and diplomacy. Like their ancestores, they are superb diplomats. > Automatic languages: Common and Infernal. > Favored Class: Rogue or Sorcerer. A tiefling related to the diplomatic devils of Baator usually has a smooth, enchanting appearance. Their fiendish features are generally composed of a thin pointed tail, small horns, sharp teeth, tinted skin, or some combination of those. BRUTE-BORN TIEFLING > +2 strength, -2 charisma. Many fiends are simple brutes, and their mortal descendants retain some small mote of their strength... And crude nature. > +2 to intimidate, -2 to diplomacy. They are quite intimidating, if only due to their appearance and mannerisms, but are similarly bad at smooth-talking their way through situations (not that they really ever want to). > Fire resistance 5. The brutish fiends often lived in the flames of the lower planes, and this affinity has passed on to their descendants. > Automatic languages: Common and either Abyssal or Infernal. > Favored Class: Barbarian or Scourge. A tiefling related to one of the brutish fiends of the lower planes often has thick, dark-tinted skin, large teeth, thick and pointed nails, and dark-colored eyes. DEMON-BORN TIEFLING > +2 intelligence, -2 charisma. Demons are brilliant, but utterly mad. A bit of this trait has passed on to the tiefling. > Mad Resistance 5: At the beginning of each day, roll a d6. The tiefling gains resistance 5 against the indicated element during that day. 1: Acid. 2: Cold. 3: Concussion. 4: Electricity. 5: Fire. 6: Force. > +2 to will saves. The hint of madness these tieflings possess give them a stronger force of will. > Automatic languages: Common and Abyssal. > Favored Class: Wizard or Sorcerer. These tieflings often have hooves for feet, twisted horns, and a generally deformed appearance. A note on the DEMON-BORN TIEFLING: I am designed a Madman class currently. It will replace sorcerer in the favored class choice when I finish it. Tieflings are born with fiendish power, but most of it simply hidden potential, unknown abilities, and most tieflings never know their true power. Others do. Hit die: d6 Skills(4): Buff, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate and Knowledge (the planes). Special: The tiefling can pick two other skills she possess that she has at least four ranks in and permanently add them to her tiefling class skill list. Fort: Poor.* Ref: Poor. Will: Good.* BAB: Poor.* Note: A brute-born tiefling has a good fortitude save and a poor will save. In addition, they have an average BAB. Level 1: Vile Blood (Step 1), 2 mana. Level 2: Resistance, Class Up. Level 3: Darkness, 6 mana. Level 4: Vile Blood (Step 2), 6 mana. Level 5: Resistance, Class Up. Level 6: Vile Blood (Step 3). Level 7: Ancestral Recall, Class Up. > Vile Blood: Depending on what type of fiend the tiefling is related to, she gains a different ability. Devil-Born >> Step 1: The tiefling gains the spell-like ability Devil's Tail, usable by spending 2 mana. >> Step 2: The tiefling gains the spell-like abiity Devil's Eye, usable by spending 6 mana. >> Step 3: Once per day, the tiefling may add her tiefling level as a bonus to a single bluff, diplomacy, intimidate or sense motive check. Demon-Born >> Step 1: The tiefling gains the spell-like ability Devil's Tail, usable by spending 2 mana. >> Step 2: The tiefling gains the spell-like ability Angry Ache, usable by spending 2 mana. >> Step 3: Once per day per point of intelligence modifier, the tiefling may attack and objectand ignore it's hardness rating. Brute-Born >> Step 1: Brute Strike: Once per day, the tiefling may add 1d4 to the damage of a single attack. >> Step 2: The Brute Strike ability improves, granting a +1 bonus to hit and a 1d6 damage bonus. >> Step 3: The Brute Strike abiliti further improves, granting a +1 bonus to hit and a 1d8 damage bonus. In addition, the Brute Strike ability is usable twice per day. >Resistance: The tiefling gains resistance 2 against one element. This resistance stacks with other racial resistance bonuses. >Class Up: The tiefling gains an effective level in one other class she possesses for the purpose of gaining class features and spellcasting ability. >Ancestrall Recall: You now know the power of your fiendish ancestor. Pick one evil outsider. You can now gains levels in the class of that evil outsider.
Tashnon 09-19-05, 09:28 PM	ever thought of just make starting racial traits worse if you're a character, but keep the creature itself big
Firestar27 12-03-06, 09:21 PM	Here is a simple solution. Take a number of negative levels equal to the level adjustment. A negative level is not as bad as not having the level so its not as bad a penalty as level adjustment. However, there needs to be a penalty. (This is a assuming that you get all racial abilities at 1st level.) Each time you would gain enough experiance to gain a level, remove the negative level instead.
Manyfist 12-04-06, 01:11 AM	Here is a simple solution. Take a number of negative levels equal to the level adjustment. A negative level is not as bad as not having the level so its not as bad a penalty as level adjustment. However, there needs to be a penalty. (This is a assuming that you get all racial abilities at 1st level.) Each time you would gain enough experiance to gain a level, remove the negative level instead. So lets take a Mindflayer. ECL 15. So at level 1 you have 15 Neg. levels. Do you start out with the avg HP? So when you level you just take off a Neg level, yet gain nothing else? So when you take off all your Neg. Lvls what then? What if you take off a neg. level and gain a class level inplace. So when you finally level to 16 you'll be level 16, instead of level 1? I personally like the 1k XP pent. Yet I say they start out with the Avg HP/BAB...etc. They would if they had the LA/HD.
Courrain 12-07-06, 11:20 PM	Like a few of you here, I am also not a big fan of Level Adjustments. But I am not entirely convinced that designing monster classes is the way to make more playable monster PCs for 1st-level. IMHO, the best way to deal with Level Adjustments is to find out why a particular monster stat, special attack or special quality guarantees one to begin with, and then try to circumvent it somehow. And this is something WoTC has already done for a couple of monster stats. (1) Raptorans ( Races of the Wild) and Dragonborn ( Races of the Dragon) - Flight Progression (2) Dragonborn ( Races of the Dragon) - Scalable Breath Weapons (3) Goliaths ( Races of Stone )- Powerful Build Then of course, there is the Warforged, a race of living constructs, that WoTC somehow designed to be playable at 1st-level. :P I think for every stat, special attack or special quality mentioned in Savage Species, there probably is a way to circumvent the LA for it. Anyhow I am interested in seeing how this project will go in the coming weeks. :) Btw, Sphyre, check out this website: http://www.Throwingdicegames.com. The website has a link to a product called Character Customization. This product has it's own way of creating Monster classes that I think might interest you.
Sylvaroth 12-08-06, 03:39 AM	The warforged is probably a bad example, because it has the potential to be a level adjusted race. LA +1 or +2 at least. Look at the discussion here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=11).
Sphyre 12-20-06, 10:37 AM	Well, originally, the LA removal project went on hiatus because I was no longer spending much time on the boards, being that I had full time school and full time work at the time. Then when I came back to the boards a few months ago, I looked at the LA Removal project, and wondered if it was going in the direction I wanted it to go with it. The streamlined hitdice seemed kind of wonky to me. I'm thinking that in a way a 1d1 might be the best way to "represent" LA levels, but I won't go there yet. So in concept, I'm thinking that the stating of savage progressions may not be the way to go. At first, I wanted to make the LA Removal project seemless. Meaning you could replace the old LA system with it, and there would be no change to non LA characters. I think that would be ideal, but hard to do with something other than the savage progression style. I, unfortunately, am only playing with a few ideas. It's very hard to implement a new LA system without practically writing a whole new edition of the game, and that would make it hard to convert your favorite 3.5 material, and would hardly make it a "seemless" transititon. Moreso, I'm finding the hardest concept to deal with is that there is an imbalance in the types. How does one keep the uniqueness and powerfulness of dragons and outsiders while making a balanced system for everyone? I don't know how I'm going to deal with the concept of being a caster of a different race either, being that the only way to balance the racial abilities is to actually have less casting ability. As one might be able to tell, I'd much rather get a good system in place and not rush it rather than make a quick fix. I think I setforth quite a challenge for myself. Any ideas are appriciated.
Sylvaroth 12-20-06, 10:42 AM	Welcome back Sphyre, we missed you already :D
okaynowa 12-20-06, 12:25 PM	Sphyre! Hurrah!Any ideas are appreciated.Well, I can tell you what I've taken to doing since the suspension of the LARP (no relation to LARPing). I've come to personally believe that what makes a good opponent in the Monster Manual is not the same thing that makes a good framework for an adventuring PC. So, to meet my definition of playable, I try to make the "monstrous" characters function as much like the "regular" characters as possible. I do that by: Removing all the racial hit dice, special qualities, ability modifiers, everything. Adding back in what the creature needs to feel like the creature. An aranea needs to be a shapechanging spider, a medusa needs snakes for hair and a gaze attack, a worg needs to be a talking wolf: all of those qualities can be scaled for 1st level players. Once the "signature quality" is out of the way, I can add racial ability modifiers and skill bonuses (if any). Creating racial feats, substitution levels, and prestige classes. The system assumes that this is how characters improve-- by choosing to invest experience in one set of options over the other. This is where my monsters recover their special attacks and defenses, or their unusual size. So far I've done this for the worg, medusa, gargoyle, and aranea. I haven't yet tried the process on really high-power critters like dragons or outsiders, partially because they'd be out of place in my (Eberron) campaign, and partially because I find some things are too... potent to be "normal" characters. A 1st level balor just doesn't make sense to me; a 1st level lemure or quasit who gets promoted to hezrou by 10th level and balor by 17th does. The process is heavily biased by my personal beliefs about balance, so it's very case-by-case and idiosyncratic. But the result is a monstrous character that still looks and feels monstrous, yet fits smoothly into the regular system of classes, levels, and hit dice.
Manyfist 12-20-06, 12:46 PM	Sphyre Removing all the racial hit dice, special qualities, ability modifiers, everything. Adding back in what the creature needs to feel like the creature. An aranea needs to be a shapechanging spider, a medusa needs snakes for hair and a gaze attack, a worg needs to be a talking wolf: all of those qualities can be scaled for 1st level players. Once the "signature quality" is out of the way, I can add racial ability modifiers and skill bonuses (if any). Creating racial feats, substitution levels, and prestige classes. The system assumes that this is how characters improve-- by choosing to invest experience in one set of options over the other. This is where my monsters recover their special attacks and defenses, or their unusual size. 1.) This is a confusing. 2.) How do you know what they retain at level 1?
okaynowa 12-20-06, 01:19 PM	Said Manyfist:1.) This is a confusing. 2.) How do you know what they retain at level 1? Hm, how much explanation can I offer without sidetracking Sphyre's thread? 1) All player characters take levels in regular classes; nobody is saddled with "racial hit dice." Some races have access to racial paragon classes and prestige classes which resemble racial hit dice, but nobody takes any non-HD-advancing dead levels. Powers that are inappropriate for 1st level characters are scaled down or translated into feats and class abilities that they pick up later. Characters are not guaranteed to get a quality just because it's listed in the Monster Manual entry; but they'll also never lag behind non-monstrous characters of the same level. 2) I make a judgement call on what they retain at level 1. It's a matter of personal taste, but I try to ensure that the monster still feels monstrous. For example, I felt that the aranea's spellcasting, web, hybrid form, and incredible speed are extraneous to the fact that it's a giant spider that can look like a person. The player can take levels in sorcerer if he wants spells, racial feats to get the webbing, and a PrC to get the hybrid form, but for the character to feel like an aranea it's got to be a giant spider that can turn into a human (or elf, or orc). So, at 1st level, the aranea gets to Shape Change (Su) between two shapes. Everything else is icing. Unfortunately, it's not a "seamless" replacement for the LA system like Sphyre originally proposed. Instead, it sidesteps the issue entirely by rewriting the monsters practically from scratch. But, it's worked for me, so I thought I'd mention it.
Judging Eagle 12-20-06, 01:54 PM	I'm not really sure if this makes everyhting that has been said here moot, but the Races of War WOTC-board mini-book that K and Frank Trollamn posted a while here covers using creatures with LA as PCs in a manner that has them have power equal to that of a NPC with those same class levels. 'ECL' of a monster = CR + 1, and it now qualifies for PC gear appropriate for it's level. That's the short of it. Reworking HD so that that excess HD are dropped is usually straightforward for 'melee' monsters, simply replace their HD with class HD; lowering their saves and HD usually significantly. The less standard creatures take more work, but are possible. I've got a link to Races of War in my thread; use the find command in your browser for level adjustment, or Aasimar.
Sphyre 12-20-06, 10:27 PM	[QUOTE=okaynowa;10962265]Sphyre! Hurrah!/QUOTE] That's kind of the direction this was going until I felt that it didn't fit the flavor I was interested in. Right now I'm toying with the idea of "gestalt" with monsters in my head. Just trying to brainstorm ideas. I kind of of feel this might be going in the direction of bloodlines minus the level adjustments but I'm not interested in that yet either. I think the biggest challenge is not making a balanced system, but making a balanced system that works with 3.5 without rewriting the whole edition.
Judging Eagle 12-21-06, 02:38 AM	[QUOTE=okaynowa;10962265]Sphyre! Hurrah!/QUOTE] That's kind of the direction this was going until I felt that it didn't fit the flavor I was interested in. Right now I'm toying with the idea of "gestalt" with monsters in my head. Just trying to brainstorm ideas. I kind of of feel this might be going in the direction of bloodlines minus the level adjustments but I'm not interested in that yet either. I think the biggest challenge is not making a balanced system, but making a balanced system that works with 3.5 without rewriting the whole edition. Sphyre, you might want to contact K or Frank Trollman. The Level Adjustment solution they present in "Races of War" is pretty good, but apparently they're going to focus more on monster progressions that don't make players cry in "Tome of Tiamat". Perhaps get some ideas from them or discuss the idea that monsters used as PCs should have a power level equivalent to a PC. Their stop-gap/quick-fix method basically has the ECL of a monster turn into "That Monsters CR +1". So, the mindflayer is a 9th lvl PC, not 16th. They have a more detailed method for creatures from races that have more HD than they should (stuff that is given extra HD, like giants and undead to give them more BAB and HP for their CR so that they're tougher). So HD are stripped in exchange for either modified HD or existing class HD. It's not a neat solution, but it allows for a Phasm to play as an 8th lvl character, instead of the 22nd lvl character that WoTC reccomended in a Dragon issue from a while back. Seriously, a 7 HD creature that can change into creatures as if it could polymorph (new form HD < or = Phasm HD, no healing, Large size or smaller) is equivalent to a 22 lvl fighter, barbarian, cleric or wizard? Yeah, WoTC has seriously dropped the ball on monsters as races. The Races of War section on Powerful Races: Unusual Races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9776626&postcount=3) Unusual Races For a long time, there has been a definite pro-prettiness bias in the rules of D&D. That is, elves (who are pretty) get a much better deal as player characters than do hobgoblins (who are ugly). This dates back to when races had mandatory alignments and people wanted to discourage Evil player characters from coming in and ruining games (which let's face it, a lot of evil PCs do). And while this has had the desired effect of keeping the number of orc player characters down and their impact minimal, it hasn't been good for game balance at all. Some people really want to be a gray skinned dude with shark's teeth, and they'll play whatever game mechanics are given to them. These players will be playing at the same level as other characters, and that means that they should be playing at the same power level! Really, all the unusual races are optional, so there's no purpose served in screwing them over. In the past, many races have simply been given insufficient goodies to be worth playing (Half-Orcs), or were given good enough abilities but then over-charged in levels for them so horribly as to make the character unplayable (Hobgoblins). We don't hold with that at all. If you don't want someone to play an ogre or goblin in your game, just don't let them play one. It's seriously not even a deal. Furthermore, for some reason there has been a massive fear of giving straight statistic enhancements to characters without a level adjustment. I don't even understand that, because Halflings already get all that and more. Really, a character who gets +2 to two attributes and a total of +4 to skills and darkvision isn't even impressive compared to a Deep Halfling, so the ginormous fear that people have of letting Hobgoblins and Aasimar into games is perplexing. That being said, what follows are write-ups for the following races playable as normal starting characters in a 1st level game: Aasimar "My ancestors were more beautiful than you can imagine." Aasimar get a short stick from just about everyone. They get screwed as PCs by the Level Adjustment rules, and they get no respect from players. Frankly, Celestials just don't have a lot of dramatic tension most of the time. Sure you can have the occasional "Legacy" scenario where you couldn't possibly live up to your awesome ancestors, but generally when it's important that someone has powerful family members it's so that you can introduce evil family members, not additional heroes. So here's the deal: Aasimar are the great grandchildren of beautiful outsiders. They aren't just for being dudes with Devas as ancestors, the same game stats represent characters who come from Erinyes or Marilith stalk. * Medium Size * 30' movement. * Outsider Type (Native and Human subtype) * Darkvision * +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom * Aasimar with a Charisma of at least 10 may cast light as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to their character level once per day. * +2 bonus to Spot, and Listen checks. * Favored Classes: Paladin and Sorcerer * Automatic Languages: Common * Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Formian, Ignan, Slaad, Sylvan, Terran. [Edit: I snipped some to save space you can after all read the whole post, thread or all of the supplements yourselves] Powerful Races: Level adjustments don't work at all. Characters end up with skill rank maximums that prevent them from taking prestige classes appropriate to their level and they have hit dice that are low enough that they end up getting caught by spells like cloudkill that are designed to keep the henchmen out of a climactic battle, and so on and so forth. Furthermore, while the concept is busted, the implementation is even worse. Characters end up getting LAs assigned to them based on the sum total of their abilities (disregarding hit dice) and then having them added on to the hit dice (disregarding abilities). Monstrous creatures end up paying for rather minor abilities more than once and the end result is that characters who really aren't good at anything end up being counted as being higher level than "normal" characters who can outperform them in every way. That has to stop. In general, a monster that is built like a PC is about 1 CR better than one right out of the Monster Manual. CR really is supposed to equal Level, so we're going to be running with the races which are playable under that rubric: Powerful Monsters As PCs, or “Beholder Mages That Don’t Make Us Cry.” Monsters need to be able to be easy blends of character levels and monster stats. We know that its completely awesome to fight evil mastermind wizards that might just be beholders or giants or some other big monster, and its equally neat to play a cursed vampire warriors who’s trying to redeem his soul. Designers up to this point have attempted to stop players from doing both by making these options unplayable or “the suck”, so its time to right this wrong. To start, let us be perfectly honest about two things: 1. We want to play monsters. 2. We know that the current ECL (Effective Character Level), LA (Level Adjustment), monster PrCs, and monster progression systems don’t work… like, at all. Ok, now that we’ve cleared that up, we can begin. [I could get into elaborate explanations of why these separate systems don’t work, but lets just say that the flaws are self-evident if you put a PC frost giant with only Wizard levels up against an NPC frost giant with only Wizard levels and CRed at the PC’s level, or you try to play a Vampire with its +8 level adjustment and minimum character level of 5. We don’t even have to talk about the Beholder Mage, an atrocity against the DnD community in both its incarnations.] Monsters tend to be build along four kinds of design philosophies. 1. Characters: This is the “as a character” philosophy, which makes monsters at a certain CR where they are perfectly suited to fight parties of characters at that level, but might overpower a weaker party or single character or be a total pushover to more powerful individuals or parties. Giants, gnolls, yuanti, goblinoids and other monsters who are expect to use PC-level tactics and equipment fall into this category. 2. Glass Jaws and Sucker Punches AKA Suckers: These monsters, which we’ll just call “Suckers” for their ability to suck and sucker punch. Usually they have an extremely powerful attack that can sucker punch a party, but they have some glaring weakness that means that they will go down extremely quickly if you exploit this weakness. Sprites, with their fabulously low HPs and powerful magic are a fine example of this monster. “Closet trolls” like trolls and Pouncing dire animals fall into this category because they are extremely dangerous in enclosed spaces (better than any three fighting characters of their CR), but they die easily if you can attack them at range and stay at a distance. 3. Puzzle Monsters: These monsters are in fact more puzzle than monster. They usually are unbeatable unless you know their one weakness, meaning that players who don’t know the right Monster Manual by heart usually die to these things. Classic examples from old editions of DnD like the Windwalkers would only die to a single spell from the spell list which you may or may not know or have on hand, but 3.x has from eased away from this level of arbitrariness. Now we have monsters like Swarms and incorporeal monsters who may be immune to all your normal weapon attacks (a killer for a party without a damage-capable spellcaster) and several kind of plants or oozes that seem to have random and crazy defenses when you attack them (like splitting into more monsters). 4. Awesome Because Its Awesome AKA Player Killers (PKs): Some Monsters are just built to make players cry. Dragons are the classic example, as they are traditionally CRed about two to four lower than they should be, and some other monsters have also been unofficially given the [awesome] subtype, meaning that players will always remember these monsters for being Party Killers. Angels, beholders, monsters with PC spellcasting, and drow typically fall into this category. Can you see the problem with making these creatures into playable and balanced characters? Character monsters and PKs can be easily modified into playable characters by modifying raw stats, but Suckers and Puzzle Monsters need massive rewrites before they can be playable characters. Converting Monsters Into Characters: Method 1: The Easy Way Assume that a monster is a character of its CR+1(modified if it i a monster with the [Awesome] tag), and that its stat modifiers are derived from the assumption that the base monster was built using the Elite Array (highest monster stat – highest elite stat, then repeat for next lowest, etc). For level-dependant effects like skill point maxes, feat prereqs, etc, use the monster’s CR+1. Round ability stat mods down to nearest multiple of 2(negative mods up to multiple of 2), and CRs down to nearest whole number. The nice part of this method is that it is easy, fast, and you can get to playing a monster immediately without as lot of DM intervention or paperwork. The downside is that you might get an underpowered or overpowered monster character if you are not careful (like you forgot that Dragons are actually CRed two less than they should be, or that Sprites are unplayable). Here’s two examples: 1. Minotaur. Its Base CR is 4, and add +1 for being a PC. Its stat mods are (monster-elite array) Str 19-15=+4, Con 15-14=+0(rounded down) Dex 10-13=-2 (rounded) Wis 10-12= -2 Int 10, Cha 8-10= -2 Int 8-7=+0, for a total of +4 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2, Cha -2 Wis, which is perfectly reasonable. It’s a level 5 PC with skill rank maxes of 8 and 6 monster HD. Frankly, it's a warrior class with a little bit of punch from natural armor, small stat mods from its size, and some fun but not good noncombat abilities. It's nothing to write home about as a 5th level character, and that's much more reasonable than the ECL 8 the MM would have you play it at. 2. Succubus: CR 7, +1 for being a PC. Stat mods equal Cha 26-15=+10(rounded), Int 16-14=+2, Wis 14-13=+0(rounded), Str 13- 12=+2, Con 12- 10= +2, Dex 12-8=+4 for a +10 Cha, +2 Int, +2 Str, +2 Con, +4 Dex. It’s an 8th level character who is almost as good as a Warlock of its level. Generally, it’s a far better 8th level character than the than the ECL 14 the MM would have you pay. The fact that its abilities will never grow in power is offset by the fact that it has a high Cha, and so good DCs on its spell-likes. Method 2: This method is the same as Method 1, but it goes a bit further by converting HD to actually appropriate HD by giving the monster the HD that equals its CR and BAB. This corrects problems just as excess HD from giants and undead. Basically, look that the monster’s HD and BAB. What kind of HD would it need to keep about the same BAB and HPs, but would give it the appropriate number of HD to fit its CR/level (which also fixes Saves to reasonably levels). Assign it that HD, and move on with your life. Here’s an example: Fire Giant. Ok, the Fire Giant is a CR 11 as a PC, and notice that it has a BAB of 11, Great! Normally, it has 15 HD which leads to some craziness if he ever gets a Con boost and it has saves that are a little too big, so lets convert it. Lets give it 11 Barbarian HD(d12s, +1 BAB, good Fort save). We see that he keeps his BAB of 11, his HPs change from 142 to 133, and its base saves are Fort +7, Will/Ref +3 like an actual 11th level character instead of Fort +9, Will/Ref +5. Method 3: This Method is being saved for our upcoming Tome of Tiamat. Lets just say that is the version of monster progression classes that you actually wanted to be written. Here are some relatively simple character conversions: Gnoll (Minimum Level 2) Lazy Hyena men filled with awesome? Where do I sign!? * Medium Size * 30' movement * Humanoid Type (Gnoll subtype) * Darkvision 60' * +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma * Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Simple & Martial Weapons, and the Flindbar. * +1 level in the first Divine Spellcasting class a Gnoll takes. * Scent. * +1 Natural Armor. * Favored Classes: Ranger and Druid * Automatic Languages: Gnoll, Common * Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Blink Dog, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Loxo, Orc, Sphinx, Sylvan, Worg. * 2 Starting Hit Dice (2d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 5 skill points; +3 Fort Save; +1 BAB) Bugbear (Minimum Level 3) * Medium Size * 30' movement * Humanoid Type (Goblinoid subtype) * Darkvision 60' * +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma * Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Shuriken, and all Rogue Weapons. * +2 levels in the first Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike class a Bugbear takes. * +3 Natural Armor. * +4 Racial bonus on Move Silently checks. * Favored Classes: Rogue and Ninja * Automatic Languages: Goblin, Common * Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, Elvish, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon. * 3 Starting Hit Dice (3d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 6 skill points; +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will; +2 BAB) Ogre (Minimum Level 4) Giants, even the lowly Ogre, are very specialized creatures. They dominate melee at their level, and really suck at everything else. As monsters, that makes them dangerous. While their glass jaws often leave them in situations that they cannot survive or even put up a decent showing, their laser-like focus can allow them to brutalize characters higher level than themselves if the lighting is just right. As characters, though, this makes them somewhat underwhelming. The ability to win super hard in one encounter only to die horribly in the next is worth less than nothing in a campaign game. An Ogre is a vulnerable and weak character for his level, but he does shine brightly if he can sucker opponents into melee. As such, Ogres really only do well in large, highly varied parties. As long as the remaining characters have potential bases covered extremely well, the fact that a single Ogre can't always pull his weight won't matter as much. For this reason, an Ogre often makes a better cohort than he does a primary character. * Large Size * 40' movement * Giant Type (Cold subtype) * Low-light vision and Darkvision (60') * +6 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -4 Charisma. * +5 Natural Armor * Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Martial Weapons, and Simple Weapons. * Favored Classes: Barbarian and Ranger * Automatic Languages: Giant, Common * Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarvish, Goblin, Halfling, Orc, Terran. * 4 Starting Hit Dice (4d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 7 skill points; +4 Fort, +1 Reflex, +1 Will; +4 BAB) Frost Giant (Minimum Level 10) Right out of the box, the Frost Giant is a bad dude capable of rescuing the head of state from ninjas. Based largely on Norse mythology, these bad boys are big and bad. In fact, at 15 feet tall, they are about as big as you can get and still count as a large creature. That makes it pretty hard for them to find mounts, or fit into small buildings, and do all kinds of other crap that adventurers want to do. But it's not impossible. A Frost Giant isn't a Cloud Giant, he doesn't need people to make new doors to accommodate him, he just needs special doors to get through without it being really inconvenient. A frost giant gets by in human society mostly because most people wouldn't dare mess with him. And that makes for a decent enough 10th level character. * Large Size * 40' movement * Giant Type (Cold subtype) * Low-light vision * +12 Strength, +8 Constitution, +2 Wisdom * +9 Natural Armor * Proficiency in Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons. * Rock Throwing and Catching (a Frost Giant's rocks have a range increment of 120 feet). * Favored Classes: Fighter and Barbarian * Cold Immunity and Fire Vulnerability * Automatic Languages: Giant, Common * Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Draconic, Dwarvish, Gnoll, Orc. * 10 Starting Hit Dice (10d10; 4 + Int Bonus x 13 skill points; +7 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will; +10 BAB) I just put the parts that pertain most to this discussion.
Sphyre 12-21-06, 09:50 AM	The Level Adjustment solution they present in "Races of War" is pretty good, but apparently they're going to focus more on monster progressions that don't make players cry in "Tome of Tiamat". Perhaps get some ideas from them or discuss the idea that monsters used as PCs should have a power level equivalent to a PC. Their stop-gap/quick-fix method basically has the ECL of a monster turn into "That Monsters CR +1". So, the mindflayer is a 9th lvl PC, not 16th. They have a more detailed method for creatures from races that have more HD than they should (stuff that is given extra HD, like giants and undead to give them more BAB and HP for their CR so that they're tougher). So HD are stripped in exchange for either modified HD or existing class HD. I took the time to read all that. It's quite interesting. In fact it's a lot like one of the possible solutions that I was interested in. It seems to apply a lot of what's been discussed in this thread. I like the +1 level in divine casting for the gnolls, and +2 effective levels of rogue/ninja for sneak attack/sudden strike on bugbears. That's like the same thing I was thinking earlier in this thread, although I might put that as it's "favored" you can choose to reduce the "favored" bonus by X, and have it apply to any class feature you want (depending on the balance of the race of course) It almost, actually, looks like that part was inspired by reading this thread ;) (This was posted way before that was posted) I just didn't think it would be as easy as it turned out to be.
okaynowa 12-21-06, 12:31 PM	Hmm, lessee... An aranea (CR 4, 3d10 HD, BAB +3) could become a 5th level character with 5d6 HD, BAB +3 (based on the bard or rogue). A gargoyle (CR 4, 4d8 HD, BAB +4) could become a 5th level character with 5d8 HD, BAB +5 or +3 (depending on if you go ranger or cleric with the HD). A medusa (CR 7, 6d8 HD, BAB +6) could become an 8th level character with 8d6 HD, BAB +6 (based on the cleric). It certainly looks reasonable. I'm already a fan of basing ability modifiers for strong creatures on the elite array rather than the 11/10 average, so it's got my vote there. I might playtest this for a little bit. Edit: I'm putting together an 8th level party using the aranea, gargoyle, medusa, and mummy, using the "CR +1" method. Not too bad so far, though I haven't yet added in the class levels (a couple here and there) to even the characters out. Considering they'll be facing off against things like efreet and elder xorn, even the medusa's petrifying gaze isn't sounding too powerful.
Sphyre 12-21-06, 05:34 PM	Edit: I'm putting together an 8th level party using the aranea, gargoyle, medusa, and mummy, using the "CR +1" method. Not too bad so far, though I haven't yet added in the class levels (a couple here and there) to even the characters out. Considering they'll be facing off against things like efreet and elder xorn, even the medusa's petrifying gaze isn't sounding too powerful. Please feel free to mention how it turns out, although, it still needs to be balanced against pure classes.
Judging Eagle 12-21-06, 07:54 PM	A few of us in my own group have made some rather high level PCs after one of us read that section and wanted to play a Nightwalker as a PC (ECL: 17). So, someone else said that they'd DM a combat arena and me and an other guy said we'd make characters. So, we have: 1. Nightwalker 17 He's got modified HD (3/4 bab to tone down his saves and HD, while maintain his BAB); and while he his a huge character, he's HP is kinda sucky. Cohort: A Shadesteel golem, with a staff of infinte Harm (costing, 99,000 gp) 2. Sanctified Teifling 1/ Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Spell Sword 1/Seeker of the Lost Wizard Tradions 7/Manager of a Monster Team 4 [yeah, that's 17 levels] Cohort: Any cohort his CR -2 (due to the Stable of Monsterous Team Members class feature that opens up the required leadership feat) Some options: Astral Stalker, Wartroll; combat things mostly. Monsterous Cohort: (any Aberration, Ooze, Magical Beast, Dragon or Plant, his CR -2) Some options: A 15 HD summoning Ooze, or adding the Half-Dragon template to nearly any creature. [he wanted to play lots of different monsters, but couldn't decide on any one creature, so I suggested this as a method to achieve that] 3. Phasm 8/Warshaper 4/Psion 5 (using/abusing Ex and some SU abilities via the psionic metamorphosis feat) My own character can fill in most combat roles; and might be a tougher character than the Nightwalker, mostly b/c I can get a con modifier while he can't. I'm using two threads for forms with useful abilities. Cohort: Not sure, some kind of spellcaster I think.
okaynowa 12-22-06, 12:36 PM	My test party consisted of: A medusa (8 HD)Female medusa 8 Medium monstrous humanoid Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft; Listen +1, Spot +1 Languages Common, Goblin, Ancient Dhakaani AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, +2 deflection) hp 39 (8d6+6 HD) Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +7 (based on bard) Speed 30 ft Melee masterwork dagger +9 (1d4) Melee snakes +8 (1d4 plus poison) Ranged masterwork shortbow +9 (1d6) Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. Base Atk +6; Grp +6 (based on bard) Atk options Petrifying gaze (30 ft, DC 16), poison (1d6/2d6 Str, DC 15) Combat Gear masterwork dagger, masterwork shortbow, 30 arrows Abilities Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 15 Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse Skill Ranks Bluff +7, Diplomacy +7, Disguise +4, Intimidate +6, Move Silently +5, Speak Language (cc) (Ancient Dhakaani) +2 Possessions combat gear, ring of protection +2, great big hooded cloak A mummy (6 HD/Bard 2)Male hobgoblin mummy 6/bard 2 Medium undead (overrides hobgoblin type/subtype) Init +0; Senses darkvision; Listen +12, Spot +12 Languages Ancient Dhakaani, Common AC 24, touch 10, flat-footed 24 (+10 natural, +4 armor) hp 52 (6d12 plus 2d6 HD); DR 5/-- Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +9 Vulnerability fire Speed 20 ft Melee slam +9 (1d8+4 plus mummy rot) Ranged masterwork spear +6 (1d6+4) Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. Base Atk +5; Grp +9 Atk options Despair (Will DC 16), mummy rot (Fort DC 16), countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1 Bard Spells Known (caster level 2nd) 1st (1/day)—comprehend languages, charm person (DC 13) 0 (3/day)—dancing lights, ghost sound, mending, read magic, summon instrument Combat Gear masterwork spear, chain shirt Abilities Str 18, Dex 10, Con --, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 15 SQ undead traits, bardic knowledge Feats Alertness, Great Fortitude, Improved Natural Attack (slam) Skill Ranks Hide +9, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +9, Perform +11, Speak Language (Common) +1 Possessions combat gear, 3 flasks of embalming (inflict light wounds potion), Ancient Dhakaani dirgesinger vestments and winding sheetA gargoyle (5 HD/Fighter 3)Male gargoyle 5/fighter 3 Medium monstrous humanoid (earth) Init +6; Senses darkvision; Listen +5, Spot +5 Languages Common, Terran AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+2 Dex, +4 natural, +3 armor) hp 58 (5d8+10 plus 3d10+6 HD); DR 10/magic Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +6 Speed 40 ft, Fly 60 ft (average) Melee claw +10 (1d6+2) Melee 2 claws +10 (1d6+2) and bite +8 (1d6+1) and gore +8 (1d6+1) Ranged sling +10 (1d4+2) Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. Base Atk +8; Grp +10 Atk options Power Attack, Cleave Combat Gear studded leather armor, sling Abilities Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6 SQ Freeze (Spot DC 20), +2 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Spot; +8 Hide against stone Feats Multiattack, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Cleave Skill Ranks Climb +3, Hide +4, Listen +2, Spot +2, Possessions combat gear, bag of holdingAn aranea (5 HD/Sorcerer 3)Male aranea 5/sorcerer 3 Medium magical beast (shapechanger) Init +6; Senses darkvision, lowlight vision; Listen +8, Spot +8 Languages Common, Sylvan, Goblin, Draconic AC 13, touch 11, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +1 natural) hp 36 (5d6+5 plus 3d4+3 HD) Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +7 Speed 50 ft, Climb 25 ft (human/hybrid shape Spd 30 ft) Melee bite +6 (1d6 plus poison) Melee masterwork dagger +7 (1d4) Ranged web +6 (Escape DC 15, break DC 19) Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. Base Atk +4; Grp +4 Atk options poison (1d6/2d6 Str, Fort DC 15), web 6/day Sorcerer Spells Known (caster level 6th) 3rd (3/day)—major image (Will DC 17) 2nd (5/day)—touch of idiocy (melee +4 touch), detect thoughts (Will DC 14) 1st (6/day)—color spray (Will DC 15), shield, shocking grasp (touch +4, 5d6), disguise self 0 (6/day)—ghost sound (DC 14), dancing lights, detect magic, prestidigitation, mending, message, resistance Combat Gear masterwork dagger, 4 scrolls (two 2nd level and two 3rd level spells) Abilities Str 10, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 15 SQ change shape, +2 racial bonus to Jump, Listen, Spot Feats Improved Initiative, Iron Will (B), Spell Focus (illusion), Weapon Finesse Skill Ranks Climb +5, Concentration +11, Escape Artist +5, Jump +5, Listen +5, Spellcraft +8, Spot +5 Possessions combat gear, wand of protection from elementsThe medusa had the highest CR (7) and therefore the highest starting Hit Dice (8), so I gave each of the other monsters additional class levels to bring them up to 8th. I used the elite array of stats, and averaged the hit points per Hit Die. It's not exactly an optimized party: the gargoyle should probably be a swordsage to get the most out of his claw attacks, and the mummy should probably have levels of cleric (he's a mummified ancient Dhakaani hobgoblin, so he's agnostic :P ). Their feats could also stand some tweaking. But it's a party I'd love to see in my Droaam campaign, so that's what I chose. Without getting magic gear and equipment into the mix, they compare fairly well with a Bard 8, Fighter 8, Sorcerer 8, Cleric 8 non-monstrous party. The monsters have excellent defenses (lots of DR, some immunities, gaze attack, despair) and special attacks, but they're a bit lacking in healing. The mummy in particular is vulnerable to turning and fire attacks. The straight party would have more and better spells (4th level, very important I think), and, if human, more feats and probably more skills. Both parties have about the same ability scores (after mods and level increase), spell/special ability DCs (hovering around 16/17 for 10+1/2 HD+ability bonus), saving throws, hit points, and base attack bonuses. So, the parties' combat potential seems roughly equal. Against certain foes (like swarms of weaker critters) the monsters will really clean up, but the human party (with its full-power casters) could achieve the same result with a little planning. If the monsters have an advantage, it's that they come with a lot of natural defenses, so they can focus on investing in better offensive gear. As a DM, I think I might be comfortable dealing with a party like that. Maybe.
rastlin_of_the_tomes 12-22-06, 01:04 PM	i think the situation here from what i have read is monster HD and the powers they grant, the way the powers should be payed for, and what covers what. from my point of view SS did an ok job on it's theory, but exacuted it the wrong way, like on what something is worth. not to mention the horendous amount of what has to be typos in the book, anthro horse get -8 to str?!? im sure thats meant to be +. ok first powers of the creature, these powers should be directly linked to the amount of mon HD they have, with class level evq. in terms of what it's meant to do, how it can do it, and how much power the class evq. has left over after doing the same thing. the last part is what i think the whole theory forgot to think about. example, a 5HD monster can cast magic missle as a 5th level caster once per day, a 5th level caster can do the same at least 3 times per day and then some, the monster shouldnt be a evq. level 5, but not 1 ether because he can cast it as a 5th level, so lets take the sor and say that power is worth 2 levels of that, so the level adj would be 2 if the 2 also gave the other beinfits of the class, like the skill points and feats, this leaves 3 HD left and 3 HD with added skill and saves would be worth not 5 levels/HD, but insted 3 levels as the HD dont give class evq. powers to go with it. meaning this guy would have a level adj. of 3 but the 3 gives 5HD worth of hp, one power and small bonuses to saves equal to what a 2nd level could have if his class was all about giving save boosts... wait a second, that's it! we need "classes" that give only a certain thing and that could be used just like non monster types classes. that could work, all you have to do is give the HD and level adj. class level evq. that would count as the levels that they give up to have the race. now all we need is to figure the evq. rates.:D
strenoth 01-04-07, 03:38 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm Just including this idea to help offset the pain racial Hd bring to casters.
dargh 03-22-07, 02:13 PM	Ahoi! I have written a total new Level Adjustmant Removal that is evaluating each type of Race inborn Talent and Feature by XP. Basically i used Magic Item Cost as if they were build only by XP (Gold divided by 12,5), because Magic Items can emulate almost every kind of Feature. Then the Cost ist multiplied because inborn Features cannot be lost or destroyed like Items. In the end i found out that even the Base Character Classes from PHB are not really balanced. Everyone may guess that Dwarves are a strong Race. If anyone seems interested i may translate it to english since i have written it in german.
blood_of_the_ancient 03-22-07, 02:14 PM	That's actually a really good idea. Cool.
Sphyre 03-22-07, 06:27 PM	Ahoi! I have written a total new Level Adjustmant Removal that is evaluating each type of Race inborn Talent and Feature by XP. Basically i used Magic Item Cost as if they were build only by XP (Gold divided by 12,5), because Magic Items can emulate almost every kind of Feature. Then the Cost ist multiplied because inborn Features cannot be lost or destroyed like Items. In the end i found out that even the Base Character Classes from PHB are not really balanced. Everyone may guess that Dwarves are a strong Race. If anyone seems interested i may translate it to english since i have written it in german. That's interesting. I don't quite understand what you mean, but I'd appriciate seeing it. I actually use something now for LAs that actually have worked out well for me. You can check it out here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11236528&postcount=44) Kind of silly... to have started the whole LA removal project, and I end up using something as simple as Destiny Levels... I'm really looking forward to what may happen in 4th edition when it comes out, but until then Destiny levels works for me.
sigma999 03-22-07, 07:34 PM	I like this project and will contribute to it when I have time.
dargh 03-22-07, 08:58 PM	Ahoi Sphyre! 1st of all, im glad to see your interest. Seems if Monte Cook has not enough time to be bothered by my Ideas (At least he will be busy designing new Rulebooks, so its okay he didnt answer me yet:)) There are also nice Ideas on this Site . I especially liked the Idea of the +1Encounter Level for Players with Gargoyle and Mummy in a Group *g*. If there is something sure, then its that Level Adjustments are a Kill to Casters and are mostly too High (except to Warriers with Racial Bonus Strength). I agree that the same Rules shall apply for Monsters and Players alike, though not every Monster may be useful as a PC. It seems in the End we need to evaluate EVERYTHING in XP, even Hit Dice. But the Increase of Power is not linear, and we would need to rebuild the whole D&D System. So you cannot evaluate a fix amount of XP to an Attack Bonus, since the XP to Level up increases. At best you may price those with a "Fix Amount*Level". Especially Strength is broken, as it may emulate whole Warrior Levels for BAB and Damage. But high Int can never compensate Caster Levels. So i decided to go a simpler Way. My System works the following way: --------------------------- Example: An Item to increase Attributes costs 1000*Bonus*Bonus in Gold. If you price totally in XP, it divides Gold by 12,5, and you multiply with 2 for inborn. Then you get an amount of Bonus*Bonus*160 XP. So a +2 Int oder Cha costs 640 XP. The Cost increases exponentially, what is good because an Attack Bonus of +10 breaks the System: You hit every opponent easily. There you can see Trolls are VERY mighty and absolutely overpowered for 6 Hit Dice. An Item to emulate a permanent Effect costs Spell*Level*1800, or *2000 for lasting effects like Supernatural. Since you can emulate Spell Resistance, Immunity etc. as a permanent Spell you can Price it in XP. Its not perfect but simple- its as imperfect as the D&D Items and System in itself, and i wont repair what isnt too much broken. ---------------------------- Nobody must buy all Race Abilities. In General, Spell Like Abilities (SLA) are a nonsense to real Casters. And after the normal *2 Multiplyer i have optional Multiplyers so its possible für the DM to evaluate the Worth to the Players Class, So Casters may pay less for Strength or SLA. What made it difficult is the fact that even the Prices for magic Items seem not consistent. And you get not any Hit Dice this way. But i can live with that. I also came up with different ways to evaluate Race Features and often got 3 different Prices, as for Spell Resistance. I simply take what seems most consistent and cheapest since you can decide which item to buy to get a certain effect. At least i can say that Casters Pay 1000 XP per Spell Slot along all other advances (if you just sum up by saying a spell level 5 is made of 5 Spell Slots). The Caster Classes in General itself are broken: you start as Wizard with 1 Spell Slot and end up with Äquivalent of 180 Spell Slots (not inclusing Bonus Spells and Level 0 Spells). Then the Wizard Level increases Damage and Duration: multiply Spell Slots with Level and you get a Might of 1 in Level 1 and 3600 in Level 20. Im not joking, it is what happens. ----------------------------------------------- Here examples for Races (i will translate soon): Standardrassen des PHB Mensch (Human) Ein genereller Bonusfeat: pauschal 500 XP. Bonus- Skillpoints: pauschal ca. 2000 XP (oder (Stufe+3)*(Stufe+3)*16). Summe: 2500 XP. Elf +2 Dex, -2 Con: 0 XP. Immunität Schlaf (Sleep): 160 XP +2 vs. Enchantment: 160 XP Low Light Vision: 320 (oder 1000 wenn man LLV als so mächtig wie Darkvision sehen würde). Waffenfertigkeit Schwert und Bogen (Sword and Bow): 100 XP +2 auf Lauschen/ Entdecken/ Suchen: 192 XP Summe: 912 XP/ 1612 XP Halbelf Immunität Schlaf: 160 XP +2 vs Enchantment: 160 XP Low Light Vision: 320 XP +1 Lauschen/ Entdecken/ Suchen: 48 XP Summe: 688 XP/ 1368 XP Gnom Klein: 0 XP. -2 STR, +2 Con: 0 XP +2 Lauschen und Alchimie: 128 XP SLA talk to Animal 1/day: 50 XP Dancing Light, Ghost Sound, Zaubertrick 1/day: 75 XP +4 Dodge vs. Giants: 192 XP Summe: 445 XP Halbork +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha: (0 wenn Barbar/ Krieger), sonst -640 XP Darkvision: 1000 XP Summe: 1000 XP (360 XP für Nichtkämpfer- Halborks). Halbling -2 Str, -2 Dex: 0 XP Klein: 0 XP +1 auf alle Saves: 160 XP +2 Klettern/ Springen, Verstecken, Lauschen: 256 XP +2 vs. Fear: 80 XP +1 auf Wurfwaffen: ¼ Stufe*1000 geteilt 2 (Fernkampf) geteilt 2 (spezifisch). Fixwert: 625 XP, angenommen der Dieb nutzt auch in hohen Stufen seine Wurfwaffe. Summe: 336+625 = 1121 XP Zwerg Darkvision: 1000 XP +2 Steinwissen: 64 XP +2 Schätzen Stein und Metall: 32 XP +2 Craft Metal und Craft Stone: 128 XP +2 vs Gift: 80 XP +2 vs. Spells: 320 XP +1 Attacke Goblinoide/ Orks: ¼ Stufe geteilt 4 (seltener Gegner): 625 XP +4 Dodge vs. Giants: 192 XP Summe: 2441 XP Monsterrassen Drow LA +2 Attribute: -2 Con +2 Dex +2 Int +2 Cha: 1280 XP Spell- like- Abilities: 1/d Darkness, Dancing Light, Faery Fire: 375 XP (aber nur wenn INT 13+) Spell Resistance 11+Lvl: 1280 XP (Level6), oder 8000 XP (Level 18) Summe A = 2860 XP in Level 6 und 9580 in Level 18. Darkvision: 1000 XP (oder 500 XP mehr wenn 120 Ft statt 60 Ft) Dazzled by Sunlight: -1 all; -250 XP Umgang mit Rapier, Kurzschwert, Handarmbrust: 100 XP (Gruppe) ----------Originalwerte------------ #Infravision: 1000 XP #Dayblind: -1000 XP #Umgang mit Schwert und Armbrust #Originale Spell- Like- Abilities: 1/d Darkness, Levitate, Dancing Light, Faery Fire, Know Alignment, Detect Magic: 750 XP. #Optionale SLA für adlige Drow: Alles 3/day, 1500 XP. #Optionale SLA für adlige alte Drow: Alles at Will: 4800 XP. Summe 3rd Edition: 3785 (6) und 10505 (18). Summe Original: 3410 (6) und 10130 (18). Ein LA von +2 würde aber bereits 13000(-3000) XP (Level 6) bzw. 37000(-3000) XP (Level 18) kosten. Der 3rd Edition Drow ist aber nur 37% bzw. 30% dieser 2 Stufen wert. Duergar La +1 +2 Con, -4 Cha: -640 XP Darkvision: 1000 XP (oder 1500 weil 120 Ft) Immunity to Paralysis, Phantasm, Poison: ca. 2000 XP, wenn man diese Effekte als „Grad 2 Zauberangriffe“ wertet (Immerhin ist Resistenz +2 Poison schon 160 XP wert). +2 Save vs. Spells: 320 XP +4 Move Silently: 256 XP +1 Listen/ Spot: 32 XP +2 Craft Metal, Stone: 128 XP +2 Appraise Metal/ Stone: 32 XP +1 vs. Goblinoide/ Orks: 625 XP +4 Dodge vs. Giants: 192 XP +4 Stability vs Bull Rush und Trip: 96 XP (speziell) +2 Search on Stone: 32 XP Know Depth: wie spezieller Feat, 250 XP SLA 1/day Enlarge Person, Invisibility: 350 XP Light Sensitive: -250 XP Summe: 4423 XP Raptor LA +0 +10 Jump: 1600 XP Gleiten: ähnlich nützlich wie Levitate, 300 XP Auto- Feather- Fall: Supernatural, 320 XP Volle Flugfähigkeit, average Maneuverability, Speed 40: 2500 XP (Minimum) +1 Caster Level für Windzauber: Wie spezifischer Resistenz- Bonus, 20 XP. Low Light Vision: 320 XP (Minimum) Unerring Direction: Wie Feat, 500 XP Weapon Familiarity Footbow as Martial: 50 XP (weil muß erst gelernt werden). +2 Climb und Spot: 128 XP Jump und Gleiten werden unnötig wenn man fliegen kann. Summe: 3838 XP (teurer als Drow!). Troll LA +5 Savage Species gäbe ein offizielles LA von +1/+2 für die Attribute des Trolls: +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha: +23040, 1280, 2880, -1280, -640, -1280 = 24000 XP 2 Claws and Bite: 3 Attacken, die alle mit dem höchsten Angriffsbonus treffen. Wäre je nach Stufe wie ein „virtual Monster at Will“. Stufe und Kosten: 160 (1), 960 (3), 2400 (5), 4480 (7), 7200 (9), 10560 (11), ... , 24480 (17). Scent: Geruchssinn als Orientierung, nützlich wie Darkvision: 1000 XP. Natural Armor +7: 15680 XP. Regeneration 5/Runde, aber Verwundbarkeit vs. Säure und Feuer (halbiert): Ring of Regen kostet 90.000 Gold. Eher paßt ein Mix auf Regenerate Limb plus Cure Light Supernatural. Schätzung: 15.000 XP Summe: Ein Troll würde ca. 65.000 bis 80.000 XP kosten. Auf normale Waffen gemünzt, falls die 3 Attacken unwirksam werden, immer noch ca. 55.000 XP (was etwa 5-7 Stufen sind). Tiefling LA +1 +2 Dex, -2 Cha, +2 Int: +640 XP Darkness 1/d: 300 XP Resistance Cold/ Electric/ Fire je 5: 2*640 XP Summe: 2220 XP Halboger LA +1 +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha: 4480 XP Large: 0 XP Darkvision: 1000 XP Natural Armor +4: 5120 XP Summe: 10600 XP Githzerai LA +2 +6 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int: 5760 XP +2 Power Points: Spezieller Feat, 250 XP SLA 3/day: Inertial Armor (1), Psi Daze (1), Concussion Blast (2), Catfall (1): 1200 XP Planeshift (5) 1/day (ab Level 11): 2250 XP Power Resistance 5+Lvl: 1280 XP in Level 12 Summe in Level 12: 10740 XP --------------- I hope it is at least a good way to stop assigning LA subjectively and go to a more exact cost. Multiplyers and several hard to evaluate costs may get adjusted in their worth.
Sphyre 03-23-07, 03:52 AM	It seems in the End we need to evaluate EVERYTHING in XP, even Hit Dice. But the Increase of Power is not linear, and we would need to rebuild the whole D&D System. So you cannot evaluate a fix amount of XP to an Attack Bonus, since the XP to Level up increases. At best you may price those with a "Fix Amount*Level". Especially Strength is broken, as it may emulate whole Warrior Levels for BAB and Damage. But high Int can never compensate Caster Levels. So i decided to go a simpler Way. Unfortunately I haven't the time to look over it now, but rest assured I will. I have not played Second Edition, or first Edition, but I know that one of the things 3rd Edition did was introduce the concept of one XP chart. I beleive it was a step forward as long as each hitdie gives, in all, the same amount - allowing for a greater ability to balance things. Do agree? I'll also check to see if you system is compatible too... Until I have more time...
Leo 03-23-07, 06:45 AM	Why don't you just make a clss for each kind of monster? Honestly, this pay xp system may turn kind of broken, because you're geting stronger whitout actully leveling up, abd thus you start gaining extra XP: Example: Drow and elf wizards, both lv10. Drow pays up xp for his special abilities. he's now some levels lower, but xp overflow will quickly compensate for that, puting him at the same level than the elf in no time, and then we have 2 wizards lv15, but one has spell resistance , +int, dakvision,etc, etc, while the other doesn't. Paying xp nowaday is hardly paying price, since the xp overflow will quickly put you back with the rest of the party.
dargh 03-23-07, 10:30 AM	I totally agree to the Point that a kind of XP Buyoff is a bad Idea since you can quickly compensate. Instead, the paid XP is not just "gone", but only "freezed" and cant used to Level up. It is added to your sum of XP. You will never compensate for what you have paid. More than that, it is possible for the Game Master to "unfreeze" any amount of xp as soon as the Racial Abilities become useless or less worth. But the Reasons why i do not like a Monster Class: - a Class is not accurate enough, and much too subjective. you can never assign a Class for little Advantages, and losing classes is always a BAD Idea. - With a Class you MUST buy every racial trait, for whole cost. Casters are dead meat with that. Example: You may choose to play a drow. You can either have a Level 16 Wizard, or a Level 17 Wizard who paid up some XP to create an Item with Spell Resisance of 29, whicht costs him 8000 XP (he makes 2 and sells one for the component cost, then ist 8000 XP and 0 Gold.) The rest of the Drow racial traits are a joke compared to 9th level spells. Clerics and Psions simply cast Spell Resistance as 5th lvl Spell to get 12 + Caster Level. With Level Adjustment its even worse: you lose 2 Levels and the Spell Resistance decreases from 11+Level to a 9+ Level!
dargh 03-28-07, 12:05 PM	Ahoi! The last Days i got the latest Magic Item Compendium. It is now quite clear that for almost every aspect in the game there is an Item. So, since you can convert Gold to XP by Factor of 12,5, multiplied costs of *2 for inborn, it shall be possible to easily assign a certain amount of XP to every Race. No more subjective appraising "could be +2 or even +4 LA?" No more broken Start Stats of Monster Races or LA, since you never paid XP when you just start. No more penalizing Monster Races with too High LA. As a Bonus, you can now appraise the worth of Standard Classes to each other, which differ from 300 XP to over 2000 XP in Advantages. As a standard rule you can subtract 1000 to 1500 XP from the Cost of any Monster Class. Still, it is also clear that there are several ways how to treat the costs for these Items which are the basis of my System. The Autors of DnD itself didnt really know which way to go, since there are different costs for Items with the same effect which differ from each other. Also the costs get updated from time to time. So simply "buy" the item which is sufficient to you. ---------------------------- As a last point, i did a comparison of costs between "byuable Race Magic" and Primary Caster Levelups, since the Levelup is a fix and undenyable Comparison Number in XP (guessing that half of the levelup benefits of a Primary Caster class is yer Spell Slots). With no Bonus Spells you get 1 Spell Slot for almost exactly every 1000 XP in leveling up (if Level 9 is worth 9 Spell Slots of 1st). So i assign 500 XP per Spell Slot as a fair suggestion, which is quite costly enough. The example is a Wizard. Below Level 5 Wizard is broken, as a known Design flaw of the Class. Char Level/Spell Slot Total/XP for acquired Level/XP per Slot 5/10/10.000/1000; 10/43/45.000/1046; 15/100/105.000/1050; 20/180/190.000/1055 with Bonus Spells and Caster Attribute of 30 Int: 5/25/10.000/400; 10/76/45.000/592; 15/160/105.000/656; 20/249/190.000/763. Bonus Spells lower the cost of XP per Spell Slot, surely. You get comparible costs for assigning XP though an SLA (Spell- Like- Ability) 1/d, Pearl of Power and Levelup as primary Caster: 1:50/160/500; 2:300/640/1000; 3:750/1440/1500; 4:1400/2560/2000 5:2250/4000/2500 6:3300/5760/3000 7:4550/7840/3500 8:6000/10240/4000 9:7650/24480/4500 1/day is less versatile than a Spell Slot, so it has to be cheaper. Still, an SLA does not need any prequisites of knowing a Spell. Cost of 1/day is numbered by: Spell Level*Caster Level*1800 in Gold as unlimited use, divided by 5 for 1use per Day. So it gets crystal clear that the exponential effects of Leveling Up for Primary Casters disqualify the SLA cost after Spell Levels of higher than 5. That is the Reason why LA kills Casters. Dot. With my System its possible for the GM to lower the costs of SLA for Casters, or better: ignore them, since a Drow Wizard of Level 20 has not much use for daining lights 1/day... I Appreciate any comments. Also i may translate the latest version of my document to english, but only if there is enough Interest.
Leo 03-28-07, 04:37 PM	First: You can only just carry so may items that boost your abilities. Except ion stones, but those are freaking expensive. Second:aren't the CO boards people always claiming casters are too strong? Why do you want to make them even stronger by giving them monster powers? That thingy of certain bonus being cheaper for certain classes doesn't fit well in D&D, especially for multiclassing. It doesn't matter what they are, if I'm level 10 of one class and want one level of another class, it ALWAYS costs the same, no matter if it's synergestic or not. I can just see, in 1 week the CO boards will use these rules to make a wizard-monster fight better than any melee class of same level WHITOUT magical buffs of any sort, because you ruled casters pay less for combat bonuses. Why don't just make monster classes? If you want shiny monster powers, you take a level of monster, like most people who really need feats take levels of fighters.
Navigator 03-29-07, 07:18 PM	Hi, this is the first time posting on the thread. I like the ideas and the project itself very much. Anyway, just wanted to shoot an idea out there. What if we could make all playable monster races "level up" with the character? A good example of what I mean is the Half-Celestial and Half-Fiendish templates. To balance it, impose an experience penalty ranging from 10% - 30%. When they've lost enough experience to account for a level, they gain some abilities of the race. For example, if you wanted to play an Aasimar; You'd start with some of the abilities off the bat, like darkvision and +2 cha. When you attain 10,000 XP (9000 actual, 1000 lost from penalty), you gain more abilities from the race (+2 wisdom, resistances). After you attain all the abilities of the race, the penalty disappears. Again, it's just an idea. There are still many things that are unclear about the above system; what constitutes a "level" worth of stuff, and the degree of experience penalty to enforce.
Segan 03-30-07, 11:18 AM	@dargh: I translated the stats you wrote in German and altered it a little: Standard races of PHB Human A general bonus feat: flat +500 XP Bonus skill points: overall approximately +2000 XP (or (level+3) x (level+3) x 16) Total: 2500 XP Elf +2 Dex, -2 Con: 0 XP Immunity to magic sleep effects: +160 XP +2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects: +160 XP Low-Light Vision: +320 XP (or +1000 XP if it’s regarded to be as “powerful” as darkvision) Weapon proficiency (sword) and (bow): +100 XP <= Instead of just sword and bow I would write longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow) and shortbow (including composite shortbow) +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks: +192 XP Total: 912 XP/ 1612 XP Half-Elf Immunity to magic sleep effects :+160 XP +2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects: +160 XP Low-Light Vision: +320 XP +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks: +48 XP <= Uhm, wouldn’t that be 96 XP? Considering you gave the elf 32 XP for every +1 bonus on a skill... Total: 688 XP/ 1368 XP Gnome Small: 0 XP -2 Str, +2 Con: 0 XP +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type: +192 XP +2 racial bonus on Listen and Craft(alchemy) checks: +128 XP Speak with animals (Sp) 1/day: +50 XP Dancing light, ghost sound, prestidigitation 1/day: +75 XP Total: 445 XP There are some traits missing for the gnome: - the size bonuses on Armor Class (+1) attack rolls (+1) and Hide checks (+4) - Low-Light Vision - Weapon Familiarity with gnome-hooked hammers - +2 racial bonus on saves against illusions - +1 bonus to the DC for all saves against illusion spells cast by gnomes - +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids Half-orc +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha: (0 XP if barbarian or fighter), otherwise -640 XP Darkvision 60 ft: +1000 XP Total: +1000 XP (+360 XP for non-barbarian/-fighter half-orcs) => is that only for those two classes specifically or for any melee classes? Halfling -2 Str, -2 Dex: 0 XP Small: 0 XP +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, Hide and Move Silently checks: +256 XP +1 racial bonus on all saves: +160 XP +2 morale bonus on saves against fear: +80 XP +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings: (¼ level x 1000 XP) / 2 (ranged combat) / 2 (specific) <= I don’t understand that formula Constant value: +625 XP, assuming the thief keeps on using throwing weapons at higher levels => Why thief? Shouldn’t that apply to every halfling leveling up in classes? Total: 336+625 = 1121 XP There are some traits missing for the halfling: - the size bonuses on Armor Class (+1), attack rolls (+1) and Hide checks (+4) - +2 racial bonus on Listen checks Dwarf Darkvision 60 ft: +1000 XP +2 racial bonus on Seach checks to notice unusual stonework (stonecunniing): +64 XP +2 racial bonus on saves against poison: +80 XP <= in the Duergar’s descriptions you mentioned the Dwarf’s 160 XP for this specific bonus. Seems contradictive...you probably meant to give 80 XP for every +1 bonus on saves against poison. +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like effects: +320 XP +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against goblinoids and orcs (including half-orcs): ¼ level / 4 (rare opponents): +625 XP +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type: +192 XP +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks related to stone or metal items: +32 XP +2 racial bonus on Craft checks related to metal and stone: +128 XP Total: 2441 XP There are some traits missing: - Weapon Familiarity with dwarven waraxes and urgroshes (treated as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons) - +4 racial bonus on ability checks when resisting a bull rush or a trip when standing on ground (stability) Monster races Drow LA +2 -2 Con +2 Dex +2 Int +2 Cha: 1280 XP Darkvision 60 ft: +1000 XP (or 500 XP more if range is 120 ft) Spell resistance equal to 11 + class level: +1280 XP (6th level) or +8000 XP (18th level) Dancing light (Sp), darkness (Sp) and faerie fire (Sp) => all 1/day: +375 XP (only if Int 13+) Weapon proficiency with rapier, shortsword and hand crossbow: 100 XP Light blindness (dazzled at bright light) => -1 all; -250 XP <= -1 penalty on all what? Total A = 2860 XP in Level 6 und 9580 in Level 18 Original values: Infravision: +1000 XP Dayblind: -1000 XP Weapon proficiency with sword and crossbow Levitate, dancing light, faerie fire, know alignment, detect magic: +750 XP Optional: spell-like abilities for noble drows => 3/day: +1500 XP Optional: spell-like abilities for noble, old drows: at will: +4800 XP Total 3rd edition: 3785 (6th level) and 10505 (18th level) Total Original: 3410 (6th level) und 10130 (18th level) LA +2 would already cost about 13'000 (-3'000) XP (6th level) respectively 37’000(-3000) XP (18th level) Though the Drow from the 3rd edition is worth only 37% respectively 30% of those two levels. Duergar LA +1 +2 Con, -4 Cha: -640 XP Darkvision 60 ft.: +1000 XP (or +1500 XP if range is 120 ft.) Immunity to paralysis, phantasm and poison: +2000 XP (when comparing with the normal dwarf’s +2 racial bonus on saves against poison, it’s pretty potent) +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like effects: +320 XP Enlarge person (Sp), invisibility (Sp) => 1/day: +350 XP Light Sensitivity: -250 XP +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks: +256 XP +1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks: +32 XP <= Shouldn’t that be 64 XP? +2 racial bonus on Search checks related to stone (stonecunning): +32 XP +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against goblinoids and orcs (including half-orcs): +625 XP +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type: +192 XP +4 racial bonus on ability checks when resisting a bull rush or a trip when standing on ground (stability): +96 XP (special) +2 racial bonus to Craft checks related to metal and stone: +128 XP +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks related to metal and stone: +32 XP Know Depth (like special feat): +250 XP <= where does that come from? Total: 4423 XP Raptor LA +0 +10 racial bonus on Jump checks: +1600 XP Glide (similarly as useful as levitate): +300 XP Auto featherfall (Su): 320 XP Flight (average maneuverability, speed 40 ft.): +2500 XP (min.) +1 caster level for spells with the air descriptor (like specific resistance bonus): +20 XP Low-Light Vision: +320 XP (min.) Unerring direction (like feats): +500 XP Weapon familiarity with footbow (treated as martial weapon instead of exotic weapon): +50 XP (because it needs to be learned) <= by taking the appropriate feat? +2 racial bonus on Climb and Spot checks: +128 XP Jump and Glide become unnecessary once it can fly Total: 3838 XP (that’s more than the drow!) Troll LA +5 Savage Species would give an official LA +1 or +2 for the abilities: +12 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha: +23040, 1280, 2880, -1280, -640, -1280 = +24000 XP 2 Claws and bite => 3 attacks, all of them with the highes base attack bonus. Depending on the levels the costs would look like this: 160 (1st level), 960 (3rd level), 2400 (5th level), 4480 (7th level), 7200 (9th level), 10560 (11th level), . . ., 24480 (17th level) Scent (as orientation guide, as useful as darkvision): +1000 XP +7 natural armor: +15680 XP Regeneration 5/round (vulnerable against acid and fire, regeneration halved): ring of rain costs 90’000 gold. A mix of regenerate limb and cure light wounds would fit here (Su): +15000 XP (estimation) <= according to the Monster Manual acid and fire deal normal damage. Shouldn’t that completely negate the regeneration against acid and fire? Total: A troll would cost 65'000 to 80'000 XP. If using weapons when the 3 natural attacks become ineffective, it would still amount to about 55'000 XP (which are approximately 5-7 levels) Tiefling LA +1 +2 Dex, -2 Cha, +2 Int: +640 XP Darkness (Sp) 1/day: +300 XP Resistance cold/ electric/ fire => all 5: +1280 XP (2 x 640) <= Why? If for each resistance (element) 5 is paid 640 XP, it should be 3 x 640... Total: 2220 XP Half-ogre LA +1 +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha: +4480 XP Large: 0 XP Darkvision 60 ft.: +1000 XP +4 natural armor: +5120 XP Total: 10600 XP Githzerai LA +2 +6 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int: +5760 XP +2 Power Points (special feat): +250 XP Inertial armor (Sp), psi daze (Sp), concussion blast (Sp), catfall (Sp) => 3/day: +1200 XP Planeshift (Sp) 1/day (at 11th level): +2250 XP Power Resistance 5 + character level: +1280 XP at 12th level Total at 12th level: 10740 XP
sigma999 03-31-07, 01:31 AM	Dargh, I like the way you think, and thanks to Segan for translation (though I know German/Deutsch and dargh's version is fine for me -_-) I did a similar conversion in my own messy, years-in-the-making point system. Here's some info from the site in my sig below, posted for comparison. See that in both dargh's and mine the dwarf comes out as "alpha dog" and ironically better than tiefling (or at least more costly) Note: to save time I'll sum the system basics: a starting character has +10 Character Points, and +15 for every additional level including L1. Every class feature has a cost and progresses at a regular pace (such as caster level, base attack, saves) according to the number of times it was acquired. 1 of those Character Points (CP) of each additional level, 1-20, may only be used for feats and ability score increases; this replaces the PHB chart that gives feats at 1,3,6,9, etc, and ability score +1 at 4,8,12, etc (but I'm debating changing this, allowing addition of anything with it, if playtesting goes one way or the other...) The following is copied from my Wiki page where it's more of a draft and a testing ground than a final document, so nothing is in stone with this system, yet, k? === d20 TWILIGHT BASIC RACES, LA+0 === Racial Bonus Character Points: +10 Class (Cultural or Background) Bonus Character Points: subtract from the Character Bonus 10 CP if desired or from the character's Class points if not, usually a recommendation to take the listed Cultural properties to resemble traditional D&D races as close as possible. Only Racial features are removed and replaced with new ones if a character's race changes. For instance, the spell Reincarnation, or any Polymorph effect. All new racial features are applied as if the character were born as that new race, and CP awards are acquired using the character's new CP total (or equivalent level) HUMAN RACIAL bonus feat -3 +2 to any 1 stat +5 SP (multiplied at L1 by 4 for a total of 20 SP) Humanblood -1 :sub –5 CULTURAL (optional: 1 regional feat of up to 3 CP) :Total –5 :Optional Total: –7 to –8 HALF-ELF RACIAL spot/listen/search +1 -1.5 low light vision -2 +2 vs enchantments -2 Elf blood –1 Humanblood -1 :sub –7.5 CULTURAL a feat that gives +2 to 2 skills –2 (default: +2 Diplomacy and Gather Information) :sub -2 :total -9.5 :Optional: add another +1 skill bonus to raise total to an even 10 CP, or remove Spot, Listen, or Search +1 for even 9 ELF RACIAL CON-2/DEX+2 spot/listen +2 -2 low light vision -2 curiosity: search +2/detect secret doors –2 sleep resistant (-4 hours needed each night, immune to sleep effects) –4 elfblood -1 :sub –10 CULTURAL elf WP: rapier and longsword, bows –2 +2 vs enchantments –2 :sub -4 :total -14 DWARF RACIAL DEX-2/CON+2 slow +2 sturdy -2 darkvision 60 -3 +2 vs poison –1 dwarfblood -1 :sub –4 CULTURAL stonecunning -2 dwarf WP: waraxe, throwing axe, urgrosh -2 +2 appraise and craft stone/metal -1 (-2 with +1 Uncommon defect) +2 vs spells/SLA -2 +1 hit orcs/goblins -1 +4 dodge vs giants -2 :sub -10 :total -14
Segan 03-31-07, 03:30 AM	Dargh, I like the way you think, and thanks to Segan for translation (though I know German/Deutsch and dargh's version is fine for me -_-) [/sblock] Well, I'm also fine with German since it's my native language, but I would assume not everyone is familiar with it. Uhm, schöner Tag heute, nicht wahr? (oder so...) :D
sigma999 03-31-07, 03:19 PM	It's been years since highschool but I remember some. Don't exactly pride myself in grammar but I try <_< Oh, and es ist sehr heiss, ich mag gern. Viele Blume! Are any of the older posters in this thread still reading this?
dargh 04-01-07, 09:42 AM	Ahoi! Several good Comments. Some more Statements to make it more clear: a) The Problem with "XP Buyoff" can be solved only by freezing XP, or you will end up with Bonuses AND Party Level, all at once. b) There are indeed some little Errors in my List. Also, sometimes i had only a 3.0 PHB at hand. But the Following was no error: - if you add several Bonuses you get a lesser Price. 3 Bonuses count as only 2. Thats not been my Idea: Fort +1, Dex +1 and Will +1 cost each 500 Gold as an Item, but +1 to all costs 1000 Gold only. - To be small means you get +4 Hide, +1 to Hit and AC, you may experience AoO from larger Creatures, you wear smaller Weapons and so forth. This is counted as "small" which costs 0 XP at the moment since i thought it is balanced somehow. May be adjusted later on. c) Monster Races are not accurate enough, though they are the best way to deal with LA at all since yet. d) An XP Buy System for "Race Item Bonuses" is a good way to evaluate things more accurate, and it is extremely simple when you see that almost everything can be bought as an Item. Still, fix amounts of XP dont serve well when you have increasing XP cost for Levelups. So i offer a varaiable XP cost version for strong Advantages like Attributes. e) If it works out for the COB i am not sure yet. Basic Rule is: The more Rules the more holes... The King of Smack is kinda impressive :) Shall be playtested. f) The Idea to allow a GM to make a SLA cheaper for a Wiz is OPTIONAL ONLY and no Rule at all. But the options a a nice little helper. ------------------ In the first Place, only 2 things in dnd are broken: The STR Attribute and the Caster Progressions. ------------------ I guess the Interest may be intense enough that i may start a Translation. Ill put it on my server as soon i find some time. Alternatively, i may put the german version onto my server and others who invested their skill points into german language may have fun with it:) ill post the url then. Off Topic: - @Sphyre: I read your Guide to Metamagic with interest. But you cannot Stack Metamagics well because you always improve on the base Damage, not the Damage modified by the former Metafeat. - Reserve Feats from Complete Mage: Somehow it inspires me, since its going completely new ways. May work out for Psionics, too, which are a REAL COOL class.
sigma999 04-04-07, 10:49 PM	We could go in an opposite direction from subtracting LA, by the way. Just occured to me and I quick clicked the bookmark to write this.. You remember how Unearthed Arcana had some feat-like defects? Some workable, some OK, some just too painful to take... It might be possible to, instead of chopping down an LA, counter-weight it with defects. An LA+2 like a Drow could quite possibly be whittled down to LA+0 without subtracting anything, and instead adding defects like some of the serious social penalties for hailing from such a violent and devious culture. From my point system I found that a level or LA is equal to somewhere between 7 and 5 feats depending on the power of feats, probably safe to average out to 6. So, slap on 6 defects, or less if they are drastic, and let er rip.
Segan 04-05-07, 10:47 AM	Or invent a racial progression (well, that's more for monster races). To make it LA +0, cut the special qualities/feat/abilities etc. to the point where it becomes LA +0, and then add a racial progression to determine, when the race will gain its archetypical qualities. Then a player would begin with LA +0, and if he wishes to get all the beneficial stats beyond LA +0, he will have to take racial levels instead of class levels. Note: This idea is different from Unearthed Arcana!
Sphyre 04-05-07, 05:38 PM	Or invent a racial progression (well, that's more for monster races). To make it LA +0, cut the special qualities/feat/abilities etc. to the point where it becomes LA +0, and then add a racial progression to determine, when the race will gain its archetypical qualities. Then a player would begin with LA +0, and if he wishes to get all the beneficial stats beyond LA +0, he will have to take racial levels instead of class levels. Note: This idea is different from Unearthed Arcana! That's one of the early ideas in the project. Albeit, a lot of work, would seem like the most friendly in terms of playing a monsterous race in a campaign.
sigma999 04-06-07, 12:52 AM	Woops! Sorry I must have missed it. A lot of posts, ya know.
Segan 04-06-07, 12:30 PM	That's one of the early ideas in the project. Albeit, a lot of work, would seem like the most friendly in terms of playing a monsterous race in a campaign. Definitely. But it seems that, for WotC, it was too much for asking to make a racial progression for every "playable" monster race, so they just invented the LA to save some work. But why would they make the Paragon classes then? That's a very similar system to the monster progression (if any), so you could say the monsters presented in MM were paragons all along (all those who were given a LA of +1 and more), they just missed it.
Sphyre 04-07-07, 02:01 AM	Well, there's a few things you can do differently than wizards did it. I've found a system that works for me, at least for now. The LA system does what wizards said it was supposed to do- dissuade people from taking monsterous races, yet allow it. That's not good enough for me. I have something better, but it's not great like in the future I'll have the time and insight to make something work.
dargh 04-10-07, 09:35 AM	The idea of Flaws is indeed a good one. 6 Feats will cost about 6000 XP in worth, and it is close to what i guessed a drow shall cost. also, these flaws should somwhow fit to the characters profession. The best example to show how useless an LA for casters is, just read the following: make up a race ("undergoblin") with energy vulnerability of 5, give attribute maluses of -6 str, -4 dex and -2 cha, and add some other minor flaws. give them in addition a slower regeneration rate and so on. in the end, the undergoblin will end up with a negative level adjustment of 4 levels. when you guys start a band of newbie drow characters, i will start up with an äquivalent of a level 7 wizard who just polymorphs himself in a wyrmling red dragon and eats everyone for breakfeast. also, who cares for energy vulnerability and slow regeneration when you have 7 hit dice and a potion of healing? mind flayers with 5 character levels seem strong. but they are dust when my "undergoblin" is a level 17 wizard *g* ----------------- btw, the only "real solution" will be when every aspect will be paid in xp: hit dice, BaB, saves, Feats, Attributes, Classfeats, Powers/Spells known, Caster levels, Spell Slots, ...
Leo 04-10-07, 12:53 PM	Well, after all, Pc's are suposed to kill monsters, not the other way around:P
Segan 04-10-07, 01:26 PM	Well, after all, Pc's are suposed to kill monsters, not the other way around:P The common races are just as much the monsters as are the other races. Why else would they have entries in the MM? :P
Sphyre 04-10-07, 04:40 PM	btw, the only "real solution" will be when every aspect will be paid in xp: hit dice, BaB, saves, Feats, Attributes, Classfeats, Powers/Spells known, Caster levels, Spell Slots, ... Not neccesarily. There's a few flaws with that... having to redo the entire xp vs CR situation, and when you "pay exp" most of the time it doesn't change the end effect anyway (for 1 battle you're behind everyone else? is that really a cost? not really). Really, it's about finding a system that you like. There are systems where you gain abilities by expending experince and there's no such thing as levels. This is "balanced" but lacks the Level Vs CR mechanic. There's a tradeoff you make over choosing one system over another.
dargh 04-16-07, 12:48 AM	I was short with time to translate, but try out the (german) version here: http://www.efb-gmbh.de/srv/ look for XPAD.doc
sigma999 04-16-07, 07:52 PM	Not neccesarily. There's a few flaws with that... having to redo the entire xp vs CR situation, and when you "pay exp" most of the time it doesn't change the end effect anyway (for 1 battle you're behind everyone else? is that really a cost? not really). Really, it's about finding a system that you like. There are systems where you gain abilities by expending experince and there's no such thing as levels. This is "balanced" but lacks the Level Vs CR mechanic. There's a tradeoff you make over choosing one system over another. One of the flaws with a classless custom d20 system is that the writer(s) must pretty much redo an entire game from the dirt up. D&D has a long history and development and I found that in trying to make things "balanced" the essence of what makes D&D what it is became distorted. Sure, it was better as a result but I think many players look at my system and think "what is this? Anime d20 on steroids? Where are the cliches and sacred cows, the quirks and logic errors that I came to love for the last 10 years or more?" And then they just disregard alternatives and go back to proposing a Better Sorcerer or complain about Half-Orcs and Cambions.
Druid318 04-25-07, 10:16 PM	What if every race had a normal progresion but they don't need to take levels in a race. So each race would have benefits every few levels. If my Race gains the flight ability at level 10 it wouldn't matter what class I was taking levels in. At level 10 as a fighter or mage I simply gain the ability. That way you could span out the racial abilities over a set number of levels without damaging the spellcasting or other class features. The Oddball races could still be overpowered but it give much better control. I also think they need to give every class a Divine Caster Bonus and an Arcane Caster Bonus to go along with the Base Attack Bonus. This would make multi classing alot easier on the caster types than it is now.
Sphyre 04-26-07, 01:54 AM	What if every race had a normal progresion but they don't need to take levels in a race. So each race would have benefits every few levels. If my Race gains the flight ability at level 10 it wouldn't matter what class I was taking levels in. At level 10 as a fighter or mage I simply gain the ability. That way you could span out the racial abilities over a set number of levels without damaging the spellcasting or other class features. The Oddball races could still be overpowered but it give much better control. I also think they need to give every class a Divine Caster Bonus and an Arcane Caster Bonus to go along with the Base Attack Bonus. This would make multi classing alot easier on the caster types than it is now. I think this is a great idea too. In 4e threads I've often voiced my opinion that I think the number one thing I think that needs to be added is a new racial system. Much like every character gains feats at 1st level and every 3rd, it would be much like giving every race a progression of free racial feats. It'd be interesting, yet a complicated system that would require a complete rework - just like as this project started. I don't have a problem with doing the work to making the complicated system, but my biggest concern is that every time a new race comes out, it requires more converting. It's like if after they released 3.5 they kept releasing every book as 3.0, so you'd have to do all the work over and over again, and to make a good system it'd probably be more complex too. Sad, but I don't have that kind of time anymore :(
NobodyNoOne 06-15-07, 12:57 PM	I would do it this way based on Experience Point Debt system: LA(ECL) should only be effective for first level characters, and later on advance normaly, and that means that Drow character would need 6000EXP to reach second level, 7000EXP to reach third and 10000EXP to reach fourth... I think that is the best way since then the LA characters will always be "late" on EXP when compared to non-LA characters, but will not be impaired forever.