The lich [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

The lich [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lokor_69
08-04-07, 01:52 AM hey everyone
i just was wondering what you guys think about the lich race/template.:)
Rerecros
08-04-07, 02:38 AM (You double posted this, but part of the title was missing from one of them? Anywho...)

Liches are classic evil imortal spellcasters, and perfect BBEGs, otherwise whats to tell.
Templario
08-04-07, 07:29 AM +4 LA is very bad for PC spellcasters, but theyr flavour is unique. I want to play one! \o/ :D
Omega_Grey
08-04-07, 11:04 AM For an npc its great, you have awesome abilities and are nearly indestructible. For a PC though you get to little for too much. That being indestructible thing isnt even that huge of a boost to most campaigns I've played in, as character death hardly ever occurs. So in the only campaign I have played in that had a lich (as done by my good friend Dave) it wasnt that great except for the sheer role-playing awesomeness of it. Honestly I would try to talk my DM into bumping the stat adjustments up to like a +4 and have the Phylactery allow me to be raised or resurrected with no material costs or something and try to cut the LA down to a +3.
Kuroimaken
08-05-07, 04:01 AM The one thing I really, really dislike about a lich is that they can't bump uglies due to being undead. Period.
zeratulcraft
08-05-07, 06:54 AM Permanent Gentle Repose.
UnrelentingHoror
08-05-07, 07:41 AM I think the Liche is a pretty descent template for its LA all things considered.
In my gameing group unfortunately we DO run in to player death often enough that the nigh indestructable thing is a big bonus. Now we don't have people dieing every week or anything or even all Too often, but it happens often enough is all I'm saying.

Other than that obvious upside, there are more that i will detail.
Keep in mind though that because you will be loseing four levels of casting your not exactly going to be a full caster. Then again the template has countermeasures for that built in as i will point out.

First lets see, you get a natural touch attack that does negative energy damage. So if its something alive you can do a descent hit in on it, and besides its a touch attack which you will likely hit more often than not.
But wait this touch attack also causes these living targets to make a save or be trapped in a state of permanent paralasys that looks just like being dead, so their buddies are less likely to help them out of it.
Then you get the +5 Nat. armor coupled with a pretty beefy and specific damage reduction. That with your hit dice being D12s rather than d4s, or d 6s with a con bonus means you could quite possibly have more HP.
This perfectly gears you towards a more point blank role as a caster, you get to memorise some of those fun close range spells and get in the thick of it without as much worry.
Which in turn may allow you, situation depending, a little bit more tactical leverage to help control the battlefield.
Then theres the little thing of the fear aura, now honestly it only affects 5hd or lower creatures, so its verry situational but it has a more than decent radius at 60ft and will help control those low level goombas your adversaries may employ in record time. Or if your cruel (yeah I know you are ;) ) you can ennervate the big bad guy till hes 5hd or less and watch him squirm before crushing the fool.

Next, yeah you are immune to Cold and Lightning damage and those are both verry nice but you also get more immunities to things that are abit more of a pain in the rear.
Now I'm not sure about you, but at the level you'll be playing a liche your gonna be running into mind affecting type stuff ALL the freakin time, I know I did. Well your immune to it and being undead those mean little circle of death spells and whatever don't bother you.

Lastly, I'll point out the racial bonuses. Yeah +2 to all mental stats is pretty cool, but at a +4 LA it does seem abit gimpy which is probably my only complaint with this template, you might be able to squeeze a few more points from ageing prior to lichedom seeing as you no longer have to deal with con negatives but its kind of a mixed bag.
The real winner in my eyes here are the racial skill bonuses.
You get a +8 (before stat bonuses) to Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Search, and sense motive! Thats a +8!!!
And those are all really useful skills too, worth a few points cross class or even maybe some way of makeing some of them class skills. Even if you don't it gives you enough of an edge in stealth where you can be up there with the sneaky members of the party ready to provide arcane support, and even if you don't put a single point into the others those are all skills that come up all the time.

So yeah the lich is probably the only template near that ECL I would consider using for a caster. That is if you don't mind giveing up abit of spell power for a few other tricks and adjusting your play style abit.
Too bad Your caster level needs to be 10 to have the template, otherwise it would be simply monstrous. Also it kind of cuts down on when you can play one.
Lazaro
08-05-07, 08:05 AM Love lichs. One of my current chacters is Dread Necomancer. I'm also a fan of the Dry Lich.
Nykidemus
08-05-07, 09:13 AM If you're willing to wait till endgame to get into it Dread Necromancer turns into a lich at level 20 with no level adjustment. Sure it's a long ways off, but I've always felt that even if you never get there it gives you something to strive for and a flavor option as you can have your character constantly doing lichy things and trying to dig up the lore and whatnot.
Scott_Kaderabek
08-05-07, 09:47 AM I found playing a lich both fun in role-playing the character and in security of a very cool and tough character. I played him for quite awhile and kept developing the character to a point where discussions with other people about D&D would gravitate toward my character. He was becoming feared and beloved, to explain...the character of Darth Vader is a really close example. He is powerful and evil, but as the movie played out, you saw more of him as a person and could possibly relate or connect with.
My character was a Human/Half-Black Dragon Sorceror named Mearsk. I gave him a really bad past filled with abuse and his personality was filled with hate and anger and the drive to become more powerful to always overcome anyone that could possibly hurt him. Eventually he chose to become a lich in order to reach his goal, he kicked alot of but that way, but was always concerned about his phylactery and had to trust a questionable ally to secure it. We played for a long time, went into epic levels, and the door opened for the Demi-lich. The story continued and he eventually became that. he was nearly invincable, i say nearly because nothing beat him, but we know it always is possible. The problem came shortly after that the DM could not challenge the character without using super epic level stuff (EX: I went toe to toe with an adamantine golem, it was a REALLY long fight, but I eventually beat him). The DM didn't enjoy roleplaying with him anymore so I retired him.
I'm would like to revamp my character, I'm gonna change him to a warlock and not head towards a demi-lich. One day I'll play him again, and the fun will continue. So, I highly recommend the lich class, it's powerful, and the the +4 ECL is balanced. And about the "looks" question earlier, Gentle Repose is the answer, its duration is one day per level, also I plan on making a cloak of gentle repose, have the character don it, than become a lich, suffer no really noticable change. Anyway enjoyed this discussion, hope I shared something with ya'll.
DragosteaChiroptera
08-05-07, 09:55 AM I have a kobold lich in my campaign. Quite entertaining.
snakeman830
08-05-07, 01:22 PM Everyone says you should stay away from LA for casters at any cost. I personally think the Lich is a template that is well worth it. My campaigns tend to be deadly, so the near-indestrucability is a huge boon (and also a time-saver). One of my favorite characters was a gnome necromancer who became a lich (at level 20). At level 21, he became a demilich. Not only was he loads of fun to play (though being challenged was difficult), but some of the ways I came up with to protect his phylactry were pretty interesting.

So, yeah, back to lich. I think UnrelentingHoror put it best, and I agree completely with him. Demilich begins to take the fun out of it (unless you have a really good DM), but the basic lich is loads of fun.
HuManBing
08-08-07, 02:03 PM The lich is way underpowered in DnD 3rd ed, in my opinion. Consider taking a look at the Dicefreaks Lich templates, which give them an ageing progression and greater customizability.

I think they start with better ability bonuses (that +2 to mental stats is just stingy of WotC) too.

Check it out here: http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33&sid=d84f6b3f00a42b8f6c8ee8949ed272c9
Baernwulf_of_Nor
08-08-07, 02:43 PM Make your Phylactry a coin, then buy something mundane and ordinary in the capital city.:D

You have the chance of a level 20 paladin getting it, but anyone that is purposefully looking for it would never find it.

BoN

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokor_69 08-04-07, 01:52 AM	hey everyone i just was wondering what you guys think about the lich race/template.:)
Rerecros 08-04-07, 02:38 AM	(You double posted this, but part of the title was missing from one of them? Anywho...) Liches are classic evil imortal spellcasters, and perfect BBEGs, otherwise whats to tell.
Templario 08-04-07, 07:29 AM	+4 LA is very bad for PC spellcasters, but theyr flavour is unique. I want to play one! \o/ :D
Omega_Grey 08-04-07, 11:04 AM	For an npc its great, you have awesome abilities and are nearly indestructible. For a PC though you get to little for too much. That being indestructible thing isnt even that huge of a boost to most campaigns I've played in, as character death hardly ever occurs. So in the only campaign I have played in that had a lich (as done by my good friend Dave) it wasnt that great except for the sheer role-playing awesomeness of it. Honestly I would try to talk my DM into bumping the stat adjustments up to like a +4 and have the Phylactery allow me to be raised or resurrected with no material costs or something and try to cut the LA down to a +3.
Kuroimaken 08-05-07, 04:01 AM	The one thing I really, really dislike about a lich is that they can't bump uglies due to being undead. Period.
zeratulcraft 08-05-07, 06:54 AM	Permanent Gentle Repose.
UnrelentingHoror 08-05-07, 07:41 AM	I think the Liche is a pretty descent template for its LA all things considered. In my gameing group unfortunately we DO run in to player death often enough that the nigh indestructable thing is a big bonus. Now we don't have people dieing every week or anything or even all Too often, but it happens often enough is all I'm saying. Other than that obvious upside, there are more that i will detail. Keep in mind though that because you will be loseing four levels of casting your not exactly going to be a full caster. Then again the template has countermeasures for that built in as i will point out. First lets see, you get a natural touch attack that does negative energy damage. So if its something alive you can do a descent hit in on it, and besides its a touch attack which you will likely hit more often than not. But wait this touch attack also causes these living targets to make a save or be trapped in a state of permanent paralasys that looks just like being dead, so their buddies are less likely to help them out of it. Then you get the +5 Nat. armor coupled with a pretty beefy and specific damage reduction. That with your hit dice being D12s rather than d4s, or d 6s with a con bonus means you could quite possibly have more HP. This perfectly gears you towards a more point blank role as a caster, you get to memorise some of those fun close range spells and get in the thick of it without as much worry. Which in turn may allow you, situation depending, a little bit more tactical leverage to help control the battlefield. Then theres the little thing of the fear aura, now honestly it only affects 5hd or lower creatures, so its verry situational but it has a more than decent radius at 60ft and will help control those low level goombas your adversaries may employ in record time. Or if your cruel (yeah I know you are ;) ) you can ennervate the big bad guy till hes 5hd or less and watch him squirm before crushing the fool. Next, yeah you are immune to Cold and Lightning damage and those are both verry nice but you also get more immunities to things that are abit more of a pain in the rear. Now I'm not sure about you, but at the level you'll be playing a liche your gonna be running into mind affecting type stuff ALL the freakin time, I know I did. Well your immune to it and being undead those mean little circle of death spells and whatever don't bother you. Lastly, I'll point out the racial bonuses. Yeah +2 to all mental stats is pretty cool, but at a +4 LA it does seem abit gimpy which is probably my only complaint with this template, you might be able to squeeze a few more points from ageing prior to lichedom seeing as you no longer have to deal with con negatives but its kind of a mixed bag. The real winner in my eyes here are the racial skill bonuses. You get a +8 (before stat bonuses) to Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Search, and sense motive! Thats a +8!!! And those are all really useful skills too, worth a few points cross class or even maybe some way of makeing some of them class skills. Even if you don't it gives you enough of an edge in stealth where you can be up there with the sneaky members of the party ready to provide arcane support, and even if you don't put a single point into the others those are all skills that come up all the time. So yeah the lich is probably the only template near that ECL I would consider using for a caster. That is if you don't mind giveing up abit of spell power for a few other tricks and adjusting your play style abit. Too bad Your caster level needs to be 10 to have the template, otherwise it would be simply monstrous. Also it kind of cuts down on when you can play one.
Lazaro 08-05-07, 08:05 AM	Love lichs. One of my current chacters is Dread Necomancer. I'm also a fan of the Dry Lich.
Nykidemus 08-05-07, 09:13 AM	If you're willing to wait till endgame to get into it Dread Necromancer turns into a lich at level 20 with no level adjustment. Sure it's a long ways off, but I've always felt that even if you never get there it gives you something to strive for and a flavor option as you can have your character constantly doing lichy things and trying to dig up the lore and whatnot.
Scott_Kaderabek 08-05-07, 09:47 AM	I found playing a lich both fun in role-playing the character and in security of a very cool and tough character. I played him for quite awhile and kept developing the character to a point where discussions with other people about D&D would gravitate toward my character. He was becoming feared and beloved, to explain...the character of Darth Vader is a really close example. He is powerful and evil, but as the movie played out, you saw more of him as a person and could possibly relate or connect with. My character was a Human/Half-Black Dragon Sorceror named Mearsk. I gave him a really bad past filled with abuse and his personality was filled with hate and anger and the drive to become more powerful to always overcome anyone that could possibly hurt him. Eventually he chose to become a lich in order to reach his goal, he kicked alot of but that way, but was always concerned about his phylactery and had to trust a questionable ally to secure it. We played for a long time, went into epic levels, and the door opened for the Demi-lich. The story continued and he eventually became that. he was nearly invincable, i say nearly because nothing beat him, but we know it always is possible. The problem came shortly after that the DM could not challenge the character without using super epic level stuff (EX: I went toe to toe with an adamantine golem, it was a REALLY long fight, but I eventually beat him). The DM didn't enjoy roleplaying with him anymore so I retired him. I'm would like to revamp my character, I'm gonna change him to a warlock and not head towards a demi-lich. One day I'll play him again, and the fun will continue. So, I highly recommend the lich class, it's powerful, and the the +4 ECL is balanced. And about the "looks" question earlier, Gentle Repose is the answer, its duration is one day per level, also I plan on making a cloak of gentle repose, have the character don it, than become a lich, suffer no really noticable change. Anyway enjoyed this discussion, hope I shared something with ya'll.
DragosteaChiroptera 08-05-07, 09:55 AM	I have a kobold lich in my campaign. Quite entertaining.
snakeman830 08-05-07, 01:22 PM	Everyone says you should stay away from LA for casters at any cost. I personally think the Lich is a template that is well worth it. My campaigns tend to be deadly, so the near-indestrucability is a huge boon (and also a time-saver). One of my favorite characters was a gnome necromancer who became a lich (at level 20). At level 21, he became a demilich. Not only was he loads of fun to play (though being challenged was difficult), but some of the ways I came up with to protect his phylactry were pretty interesting. So, yeah, back to lich. I think UnrelentingHoror put it best, and I agree completely with him. Demilich begins to take the fun out of it (unless you have a really good DM), but the basic lich is loads of fun.
HuManBing 08-08-07, 02:03 PM	The lich is way underpowered in DnD 3rd ed, in my opinion. Consider taking a look at the Dicefreaks Lich templates, which give them an ageing progression and greater customizability. I think they start with better ability bonuses (that +2 to mental stats is just stingy of WotC) too. Check it out here: http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33&sid=d84f6b3f00a42b8f6c8ee8949ed272c9
Baernwulf_of_Nor 08-08-07, 02:43 PM	Make your Phylactry a coin, then buy something mundane and ordinary in the capital city.:D You have the chance of a level 20 paladin getting it, but anyone that is purposefully looking for it would never find it. BoN