The 'Miked' Ogre Mage: What is it's LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

The 'Miked' Ogre Mage: What is it's LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Threefists
11-13-07, 08:36 AM Now, I love the Ogre Mage...the MM 1 version is somewhat sucky (yes, whereas some people suffer from Drizzit Syndrome, I suffer from Monster Syndrome. And no, I don't wanna be cured!) but this variant http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a is a entirely different kettle of fish! Thus far I work out it's LA to be +5, or around that mark, using the Savage Species Manual as my guide. Comparing a CR 11 Miked Ogre mage against a Human Fighter 9/Rogue 3 pretty much makes equal characters, with the following thoughts:

The Ogre Mage will always lag behind the Human Fighter/Rogue in terms of Hit-Points and Saving Throws and number of attacks per round, unless the game allows the LA Trade-Off as found in Unearthed Arcana, and the player of the Ogre Mage plays to the strengths of the monster, such as Force of Personality feat to take advantage of that high Charisma score and so on.

Obviously the Ogre Mage will never have more hit-points than the Fighter/Rogue, as mentioned before, but it's Fast Healing 5, now without the suckiness of damage by fire and acid not regenerating, can make for a interesting compensation. Against a land-bound foe, the Ogre Mage merely need fly up above the reach of it's foe and used ranged or reach weapon to harrass until the Fast Healing does it's job and the Ogre Mage may swoop back down and get back into the fight, whereas the Human Fighter/Rogue must depend upon his greater store of hit-points and the attention of a friendly healer, either the standard Cleric or a UMD Rogue with a Cure Wand, to survive the battle.

To the topic of attacks per round, however, the Ogre Mage will always be second best in some regards. Against large masses of lightly armored foes, if neither Ogre nor Fighter have the Cleave feat, the Fighter will win due to the ability to make more attacks per round than the Ogre Mage, but the Ogre Mage has the advantage of dealing, on average, more damage per hit and having a higher hit-ratio given it's tremendous strength. Of course, one does need to hit the enemy when one simply bull-rushes them off the edges of cliffs and waves as they fall to their deaths.

So am I correct with the LA +5? I am more than a little uneasy with my calculations, and am swinging between LA +4 - LA +6.

On a personal note, the Miked Ogre Mage seems to be a much better version of the Ogre Mage than we have seen before.
Captain_Kobold
11-13-07, 07:47 PM Are you working on the basis of a CR 11 Ogre mage having an LA of +5 and 6 Giant Racial Hit dice?

Your basis seems reasonable, with it fitting in fairly well with the Fighter/Rogue character. LA +5 seems about right, but ultimately, its up to your DM to determine. They can always devide to adjust it slightly on the fly.

Obviously the Ogre Mage will never have more hit-points than the Fighter/Rogue, as mentioned before, [/I]

Not quite sure where you get that idea from. The Ogre Mage's high constitution modifier will mean that it may catch up to and then overtake a similar ECL character with more hit dice, but less constitution bonus.

Thankfully for the use of the Ogre Mage as a PC, this variant does not have Regeneration. That always makes LA calculations a nightmare since it is such a powerful base ability. While fast healing is much less powerful, it is a lot easier to work out LA for.
Finfreeze
11-13-07, 08:48 PM I personally use "Mearlsified".

Anyhow, I think LA +2 is about right, with maybe a margin of error of ą1. You pay off the ability mods and spell-likes with the hit dice, while the other stuff like healing, size, and flight makes up the Level Adjustment.

You could also tack on four hit dice and null the LA completely, I guess.

Regeneration
I honestly think it and similar abilities (like vampire and ghost rejuvenation) are overrated. Sure it's hard for you to die, but it'll never really win you many fights on its own, its in-combat effectiveness diminishes as you level up, and being knocked unconscious from nonlethal damage still renders you useless to the party. Besides, many people tote and tout wands of various healing spells to patch themselves up between fights.

Better than nothing, though.
runestar
11-14-07, 12:56 AM I think that LA+5 is definitely too high (this is far weaker than the MM ogre mage), but LA of +2 is simply too low (this is arguably stronger than a 8th lv PC).

It is large in size, and does have favourable stat mods, fast healing, innate flight and a few useful SLAs. This outstrips the benefits granted by the half-dragon template, but is clearly weaker than the half-celestial. Also, its 6 giant HD is weaker than the closest alternative I can find, a half-ogre rogue4/fighter2, so maybe -1LA from that.

At first glance, my guess would be around LA+3 or LA+4, for a final ECL of 9 or 10.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Threefists 11-13-07, 08:36 AM	Now, I love the Ogre Mage...the MM 1 version is somewhat sucky (yes, whereas some people suffer from Drizzit Syndrome, I suffer from Monster Syndrome. And no, I don't wanna be cured!) but this variant http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a is a entirely different kettle of fish! Thus far I work out it's LA to be +5, or around that mark, using the Savage Species Manual as my guide. Comparing a CR 11 Miked Ogre mage against a Human Fighter 9/Rogue 3 pretty much makes equal characters, with the following thoughts: The Ogre Mage will always lag behind the Human Fighter/Rogue in terms of Hit-Points and Saving Throws and number of attacks per round, unless the game allows the LA Trade-Off as found in Unearthed Arcana, and the player of the Ogre Mage plays to the strengths of the monster, such as Force of Personality feat to take advantage of that high Charisma score and so on. Obviously the Ogre Mage will never have more hit-points than the Fighter/Rogue, as mentioned before, but it's Fast Healing 5, now without the suckiness of damage by fire and acid not regenerating, can make for a interesting compensation. Against a land-bound foe, the Ogre Mage merely need fly up above the reach of it's foe and used ranged or reach weapon to harrass until the Fast Healing does it's job and the Ogre Mage may swoop back down and get back into the fight, whereas the Human Fighter/Rogue must depend upon his greater store of hit-points and the attention of a friendly healer, either the standard Cleric or a UMD Rogue with a Cure Wand, to survive the battle. To the topic of attacks per round, however, the Ogre Mage will always be second best in some regards. Against large masses of lightly armored foes, if neither Ogre nor Fighter have the Cleave feat, the Fighter will win due to the ability to make more attacks per round than the Ogre Mage, but the Ogre Mage has the advantage of dealing, on average, more damage per hit and having a higher hit-ratio given it's tremendous strength. Of course, one does need to hit the enemy when one simply bull-rushes them off the edges of cliffs and waves as they fall to their deaths. So am I correct with the LA +5? I am more than a little uneasy with my calculations, and am swinging between LA +4 - LA +6. On a personal note, the Miked Ogre Mage seems to be a much better version of the Ogre Mage than we have seen before.
Captain_Kobold 11-13-07, 07:47 PM	Are you working on the basis of a CR 11 Ogre mage having an LA of +5 and 6 Giant Racial Hit dice? Your basis seems reasonable, with it fitting in fairly well with the Fighter/Rogue character. LA +5 seems about right, but ultimately, its up to your DM to determine. They can always devide to adjust it slightly on the fly. Obviously the Ogre Mage will never have more hit-points than the Fighter/Rogue, as mentioned before, [/I] Not quite sure where you get that idea from. The Ogre Mage's high constitution modifier will mean that it may catch up to and then overtake a similar ECL character with more hit dice, but less constitution bonus. Thankfully for the use of the Ogre Mage as a PC, this variant does not have Regeneration. That always makes LA calculations a nightmare since it is such a powerful base ability. While fast healing is much less powerful, it is a lot easier to work out LA for.
Finfreeze 11-13-07, 08:48 PM	I personally use "Mearlsified". Anyhow, I think LA +2 is about right, with maybe a margin of error of ą1. You pay off the ability mods and spell-likes with the hit dice, while the other stuff like healing, size, and flight makes up the Level Adjustment. You could also tack on four hit dice and null the LA completely, I guess. Regeneration I honestly think it and similar abilities (like vampire and ghost rejuvenation) are overrated. Sure it's hard for you to die, but it'll never really win you many fights on its own, its in-combat effectiveness diminishes as you level up, and being knocked unconscious from nonlethal damage still renders you useless to the party. Besides, many people tote and tout wands of various healing spells to patch themselves up between fights. Better than nothing, though.
runestar 11-14-07, 12:56 AM	I think that LA+5 is definitely too high (this is far weaker than the MM ogre mage), but LA of +2 is simply too low (this is arguably stronger than a 8th lv PC). It is large in size, and does have favourable stat mods, fast healing, innate flight and a few useful SLAs. This outstrips the benefits granted by the half-dragon template, but is clearly weaker than the half-celestial. Also, its 6 giant HD is weaker than the closest alternative I can find, a half-ogre rogue4/fighter2, so maybe -1LA from that. At first glance, my guess would be around LA+3 or LA+4, for a final ECL of 9 or 10.