The Timeless Template (think yoda) PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Timeless Template (think yoda) PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JackSnape
11-29-07, 02:54 PM The Timeless
Beings of great age exist throughout the land; precisely when these people were born is unknown, some have survived all of recorded history. They continue to age physically, but death seems to avoid them. Whatever race they once were, time has made their bodies small and frail, but their minds remain sharp. What force allows them to ignore death is unknown. What makes these individuals different from others of thier race is also unknown.
This template should be allowed for PCs only after careful DM consideration.

Timeless Template
Can be applied to any humanoid of age ancient.

+4 Wis +2 Int -2 Str –2 Con

Ancient knowlege:Knowledge skills are always class skills
+4 to knowledge (history) checks.
Immune to the effects of aging Including magical aging.
Gains slight build: If the base creature already has slight build the timeless is one category smaller than the base creature and loses the slight build feature, if the base creature has powerful build it looses that feature, but does not gain slight build.
Ignore Death: Timeless are used to deaths attempts to take them. They receive a +4 to saves against death effects.
Slight build: The reduced size of the Timeless lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a timeless is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the Timeless is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character.
Fraility: Due to obvious extreme frailty, intelligent NPCs usually treat the timeless as non-combatants unless they make an aggressive action (including casting a spell). Depending on the NPC this may mean the timeless is the first attacked, or the timeless may be completely ignored. DMs should describe the timeless as appearing non-threatening. This is NOT an enchantment or mind-altering effect, no checks are involved.

Creature retains all stats and properties that are not noted here.
CR +1 if the creature is a spellcaster or relies on spell like abilities. Otherwise no change.
LA +1
JackSnape
11-29-07, 08:10 PM Going once. . .
Going twice. . .
:bump:
Master_Vega
11-30-07, 12:33 AM Is there any flavor reason for them to become small, or did you just do that because Yoda is small?

I'm pretty sure Yoda has always looked like Yoda, maybe a little less wrinkly during his earlier years. He just happens to be part of a very long-lived species and has many levels to compensate for his old-age suckiness. :P

I'm not sure about balance, really... I haven't really made many templates for D&D (D20Modern however...) I'm not sure immortality is that big a deal as far as the campaign is concerned.
celestialkin
11-30-07, 12:45 AM What about timeless dragons? Why would they shrink?

However, I like this idea. Sadly it might not be something PCs are likely to use, but fluffwise I like the idea of certain few members of a species being chosen for some reason to remain forever. I could see such beings as NPCs who are destined to observe their race and their entire world from start to finish. Some might simply watch and document, while others actively wish to alter events. So many possibilities.

If you are planning to use this JackSnape, maybe you should look into the Time Dragons in the final issue of the (real) Dragon Magazine.

Here are some fictional characters who come to mind when I think about this template:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elders_of_the_Universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchers_%28comics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_%28comics%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Immortal
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hewh oremainstva.htm
bahamut920
11-30-07, 01:15 AM Intelligent NPCs usually treat the timeless as non-combatants unless they make an aggressive action (including casting a spell).

Honestly, I think this ability is kind of out of place. I see no reason for an ability like this on the type of creature you're trying to create. Nobody ignored Yoda. He may have been old, but that just meant he'd seen every trick in the book and read up on how to beat it.

And if you really have your heart set on having the ability, I still think you need to define it better. Does this mean that any intelligent creature is automatically flat-footed against a timeless creature until it attacks once? Or does it mean that they just can't attack? What about evil creatures that wouldn't hesitate to attack a bystander? Maybe a better ability write-up would be something like this:

Aura of Old (Ex or Su): Creatures around the timeless creature tend to underestimate it because of the creature's great age. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's Hit Dice + Cha modifier) or be affected as if by a sanctuary spell. This effect is negated if the timeless creature makes a hostile action towards any affected creature or its allies, but reactivates at the end of the encounter.

(Yes, I know the name sucks, but the OP can always change it, and I decided to be funny. So there. :P )
Master_Vega
11-30-07, 01:32 AM Aura of Old (Ex or Su): Creatures around the timeless creature tend to underestimate it because of the creature's great age. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's Hit Dice + Cha modifier) or be affected as if by a sanctuary spell. This effect is negated if the timeless creature makes a hostile action towards any affected creature or its allies, but reactivates at the end of the encounter.

(Yes, I know the name sucks, but the OP can always change it, and I decided to be funny. So there. :P )

Wow... I think a certain comedian's routine would be perfect flavor for this ability... Can't remember his name; I just remember several things he said like "Why do old people drive so slow? 'Hurry up! You're dying!' ... When I'm ninety, I'm gonna be goin' ninety! What are the cops going to do, arrest me?
*authoritative voice* Sir, can I see your license and registration please?
*sickly, weak voice* I'm old...
*authoritative voice* Dude... you are old... uh... go on."

As for the actual ability... I think it was just supposed to be a guideline for DMs running NPCs around the timeless character. If they know he's dangerous, then they'll probably try to off him first. :P
JackSnape
11-30-07, 10:15 AM Is there any flavor reason for them to become small, or did you just do that because Yoda is small?
In humans, age tends to shrink people. 90 year olds are usually far smaller than they were as young adults(in both height and weight.) I took this to the next logical step. 900 year olds should be far smaller. That's why I did it, Yoda is just an example, of course I don't know what yoda did look like but I've always imagined him as being taller long ago. Also I think the small size is an asset as this template is best for casters who could use that expta point of AC

What about timeless dragons? Why would they shrink?
The template is reserved for humanoids. No I agree there's no reason for a dragon to shrink, in fact I imagine a timeless dragon would continue to grow.

Honestly, I think this ability is kind of out of place. I see no reason for an ability like this on the type of creature you're trying to create. Nobody ignored Yoda. He may have been old, but that just meant he'd seen every trick in the book and read up on how to beat it.
It's just flavor really. I meant it for DMs running games with these characters. I'm changing it to be more clear.
I'm also removing the bonus to avoid combat in favor of the ignore death ability

Thanks for the comments all.
Master_Vega
11-30-07, 12:14 PM In humans, age tends to shrink people. 90 year olds are usually far smaller than they were as young adults(in both height and weight.) I took this to the next logical step. 900 year olds should be far smaller. That's why I did it, Yoda is just an example, of course I don't know what yoda did look like but I've always imagined him as being taller long ago. Also I think the small size is an asset as this template is best for casters who could use that expta point of AC.

It might be helpful to them, but you have to realize something: old people don't shrink, they just can't stand as straight anymore (at least the ones you seem to be referring to; my grandpa still stands fairly tall and he's over seventy). The atrophy of muscle also makes them appear a lot smaller than they were (again, in some cases), but they don't actually shrink.
Your bones can only compact so far... or do you expect all the Timeless characters to walk around in something resembling the fetal position? :P

Hey, it's your template for your game. If you like it, go for it; I just think it's a bit of a stretch to have their size-category decrease by one.
SaintedBerzerker
11-30-07, 01:07 PM Geek mode on: Yoda was actually around 9 ft. tall in his youth. his race just naturally shrinks. However the template really dos'nt call for a size change. Perhaps somthing similar to powerfull build in reverse.
JackSnape
11-30-07, 02:39 PM By popular demand size change has been changed to slight build.
Thanks for the feedback all, keep it coming :)
JackSnape
12-02-07, 12:19 PM Does the alteration to the size change (slight build) make sense?
Any further comments?
Master_Vega
12-02-07, 12:33 PM Does the alteration to the size change (slight build) make sense?
Any further comments?

I didn't agree at first, but then I realized my argument for them not to be small kinda screamed slight build. :P

I like the template, and as long as the "NPCs view Timeless as Non-combatants" part is just flavor (and not an actual mechanic) it should be fairly balanced.
JackSnape
12-02-07, 03:23 PM Well I did make it a mechanic actually, but I made it weak. Note that it doesn't increase with HD so it's based strictly on CHA vs INT.
I'm hardly set on this since I won't be using it for a while, why do you feel so strongly it shouldn't be a mechanic? how does it unbalance, LA?
Actually it seems a bit clunky to me, and I may go back to the old description, more of a DM's note

Aura of Fraility: Intelligent NPCs usually treat the timeless as non-combatants unless they make an aggressive action (including casting a spell). NPCs with INT 3 or higher must make an intelegence check (DC 10+timeless creatures cha mod) or be forced to attack an enemy other than the timeless. This ability does not function if the NPC has seen the timeless in combat previously or if there are no non-timeless enemies to attack. PCs need not make this check but DMs should describe the timeless as appearing non-threatening.
Master_Vega
12-02-07, 03:32 PM I guess it works; it just seems like... well... it should be a description/flavor thing. *shrug* Perhaps just advise DMs to pay attention to the fact that the Timeless character is a frail old guy... and some people might pass him by to attack the others, some might push him aside, some might stick a sword in him to keep him out of the way.
JackSnape
12-03-07, 04:22 PM Alright, Ive gone back to the origional DMs note style for the frailty ablilty. It now clearly involves no dice roll. I think I like it better this way, thanks all for the comments on this.

I'll probably leave this alone now unless anyone else has a comment/suggestion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JackSnape 11-29-07, 02:54 PM	The Timeless Beings of great age exist throughout the land; precisely when these people were born is unknown, some have survived all of recorded history. They continue to age physically, but death seems to avoid them. Whatever race they once were, time has made their bodies small and frail, but their minds remain sharp. What force allows them to ignore death is unknown. What makes these individuals different from others of thier race is also unknown. This template should be allowed for PCs only after careful DM consideration. Timeless Template Can be applied to any humanoid of age ancient. +4 Wis +2 Int -2 Str –2 Con Ancient knowlege:Knowledge skills are always class skills +4 to knowledge (history) checks. Immune to the effects of aging Including magical aging. Gains slight build: If the base creature already has slight build the timeless is one category smaller than the base creature and loses the slight build feature, if the base creature has powerful build it looses that feature, but does not gain slight build. Ignore Death: Timeless are used to deaths attempts to take them. They receive a +4 to saves against death effects. Slight build: The reduced size of the Timeless lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a timeless is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the Timeless is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. Fraility: Due to obvious extreme frailty, intelligent NPCs usually treat the timeless as non-combatants unless they make an aggressive action (including casting a spell). Depending on the NPC this may mean the timeless is the first attacked, or the timeless may be completely ignored. DMs should describe the timeless as appearing non-threatening. This is NOT an enchantment or mind-altering effect, no checks are involved. Creature retains all stats and properties that are not noted here. CR +1 if the creature is a spellcaster or relies on spell like abilities. Otherwise no change. LA +1
JackSnape 11-29-07, 08:10 PM	Going once. . . Going twice. . . :bump:
Master_Vega 11-30-07, 12:33 AM	Is there any flavor reason for them to become small, or did you just do that because Yoda is small? I'm pretty sure Yoda has always looked like Yoda, maybe a little less wrinkly during his earlier years. He just happens to be part of a very long-lived species and has many levels to compensate for his old-age suckiness. :P I'm not sure about balance, really... I haven't really made many templates for D&D (D20Modern however...) I'm not sure immortality is that big a deal as far as the campaign is concerned.
celestialkin 11-30-07, 12:45 AM	What about timeless dragons? Why would they shrink? However, I like this idea. Sadly it might not be something PCs are likely to use, but fluffwise I like the idea of certain few members of a species being chosen for some reason to remain forever. I could see such beings as NPCs who are destined to observe their race and their entire world from start to finish. Some might simply watch and document, while others actively wish to alter events. So many possibilities. If you are planning to use this JackSnape, maybe you should look into the Time Dragons in the final issue of the (real) Dragon Magazine. Here are some fictional characters who come to mind when I think about this template: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elders_of_the_Universe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchers_%28comics%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_%28comics%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Immortal http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hewh oremainstva.htm
bahamut920 11-30-07, 01:15 AM	Intelligent NPCs usually treat the timeless as non-combatants unless they make an aggressive action (including casting a spell). Honestly, I think this ability is kind of out of place. I see no reason for an ability like this on the type of creature you're trying to create. Nobody ignored Yoda. He may have been old, but that just meant he'd seen every trick in the book and read up on how to beat it. And if you really have your heart set on having the ability, I still think you need to define it better. Does this mean that any intelligent creature is automatically flat-footed against a timeless creature until it attacks once? Or does it mean that they just can't attack? What about evil creatures that wouldn't hesitate to attack a bystander? Maybe a better ability write-up would be something like this: Aura of Old (Ex or Su): Creatures around the timeless creature tend to underestimate it because of the creature's great age. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's Hit Dice + Cha modifier) or be affected as if by a sanctuary spell. This effect is negated if the timeless creature makes a hostile action towards any affected creature or its allies, but reactivates at the end of the encounter. (Yes, I know the name sucks, but the OP can always change it, and I decided to be funny. So there. :P )
Master_Vega 11-30-07, 01:32 AM	Aura of Old (Ex or Su): Creatures around the timeless creature tend to underestimate it because of the creature's great age. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or greater must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's Hit Dice + Cha modifier) or be affected as if by a sanctuary spell. This effect is negated if the timeless creature makes a hostile action towards any affected creature or its allies, but reactivates at the end of the encounter. (Yes, I know the name sucks, but the OP can always change it, and I decided to be funny. So there. :P ) Wow... I think a certain comedian's routine would be perfect flavor for this ability... Can't remember his name; I just remember several things he said like "Why do old people drive so slow? 'Hurry up! You're dying!' ... When I'm ninety, I'm gonna be goin' ninety! What are the cops going to do, arrest me? authoritative voice Sir, can I see your license and registration please? sickly, weak voice I'm old... authoritative voice Dude... you are old... uh... go on." As for the actual ability... I think it was just supposed to be a guideline for DMs running NPCs around the timeless character. If they know he's dangerous, then they'll probably try to off him first. :P
JackSnape 11-30-07, 10:15 AM	Is there any flavor reason for them to become small, or did you just do that because Yoda is small? In humans, age tends to shrink people. 90 year olds are usually far smaller than they were as young adults(in both height and weight.) I took this to the next logical step. 900 year olds should be far smaller. That's why I did it, Yoda is just an example, of course I don't know what yoda did look like but I've always imagined him as being taller long ago. Also I think the small size is an asset as this template is best for casters who could use that expta point of AC What about timeless dragons? Why would they shrink? The template is reserved for humanoids. No I agree there's no reason for a dragon to shrink, in fact I imagine a timeless dragon would continue to grow. Honestly, I think this ability is kind of out of place. I see no reason for an ability like this on the type of creature you're trying to create. Nobody ignored Yoda. He may have been old, but that just meant he'd seen every trick in the book and read up on how to beat it. It's just flavor really. I meant it for DMs running games with these characters. I'm changing it to be more clear. I'm also removing the bonus to avoid combat in favor of the ignore death ability Thanks for the comments all.
Master_Vega 11-30-07, 12:14 PM	In humans, age tends to shrink people. 90 year olds are usually far smaller than they were as young adults(in both height and weight.) I took this to the next logical step. 900 year olds should be far smaller. That's why I did it, Yoda is just an example, of course I don't know what yoda did look like but I've always imagined him as being taller long ago. Also I think the small size is an asset as this template is best for casters who could use that expta point of AC. It might be helpful to them, but you have to realize something: old people don't shrink, they just can't stand as straight anymore (at least the ones you seem to be referring to; my grandpa still stands fairly tall and he's over seventy). The atrophy of muscle also makes them appear a lot smaller than they were (again, in some cases), but they don't actually shrink. Your bones can only compact so far... or do you expect all the Timeless characters to walk around in something resembling the fetal position? :P Hey, it's your template for your game. If you like it, go for it; I just think it's a bit of a stretch to have their size-category decrease by one.
SaintedBerzerker 11-30-07, 01:07 PM	Geek mode on: Yoda was actually around 9 ft. tall in his youth. his race just naturally shrinks. However the template really dos'nt call for a size change. Perhaps somthing similar to powerfull build in reverse.
JackSnape 11-30-07, 02:39 PM	By popular demand size change has been changed to slight build. Thanks for the feedback all, keep it coming :)
JackSnape 12-02-07, 12:19 PM	Does the alteration to the size change (slight build) make sense? Any further comments?
Master_Vega 12-02-07, 12:33 PM	Does the alteration to the size change (slight build) make sense? Any further comments? I didn't agree at first, but then I realized my argument for them not to be small kinda screamed slight build. :P I like the template, and as long as the "NPCs view Timeless as Non-combatants" part is just flavor (and not an actual mechanic) it should be fairly balanced.
JackSnape 12-02-07, 03:23 PM	Well I did make it a mechanic actually, but I made it weak. Note that it doesn't increase with HD so it's based strictly on CHA vs INT. I'm hardly set on this since I won't be using it for a while, why do you feel so strongly it shouldn't be a mechanic? how does it unbalance, LA? Actually it seems a bit clunky to me, and I may go back to the old description, more of a DM's note Aura of Fraility: Intelligent NPCs usually treat the timeless as non-combatants unless they make an aggressive action (including casting a spell). NPCs with INT 3 or higher must make an intelegence check (DC 10+timeless creatures cha mod) or be forced to attack an enemy other than the timeless. This ability does not function if the NPC has seen the timeless in combat previously or if there are no non-timeless enemies to attack. PCs need not make this check but DMs should describe the timeless as appearing non-threatening.
Master_Vega 12-02-07, 03:32 PM	I guess it works; it just seems like... well... it should be a description/flavor thing. shrug Perhaps just advise DMs to pay attention to the fact that the Timeless character is a frail old guy... and some people might pass him by to attack the others, some might push him aside, some might stick a sword in him to keep him out of the way.
JackSnape 12-03-07, 04:22 PM	Alright, Ive gone back to the origional DMs note style for the frailty ablilty. It now clearly involves no dice roll. I think I like it better this way, thanks all for the comments on this. I'll probably leave this alone now unless anyone else has a comment/suggestion.