The ultimate LA guide. (Eventuly) [Archive] - Wizards Community

The ultimate LA guide. (Eventuly) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zuractai
05-05-07, 09:17 PM My goal is to create an as accurate guide for figuring out LA as possible. As a base I am going to round things to a +/- .1 I will list a couple ideas that I am using as a base idea.

#1 Certain abilities are more or less powerful depending upon the total starting ECL (Racial hit dice + LA) To reflect this I will also try and include a minimal ECL this ability should appear with. Regeneration 1 for example, shouldn’t appear on a +1 LA race, even if it is worth about a +1 LA.

#2 Certain powers can also get more powerful and be worth near to the same amount depending upon the total ECL. An example is flying. Fly speed 60 average is less powerful then Fly speed 100 perfect, but if the race has a +8 LA, it isn’t realy a big increase.

#3 This is only a guideline. Just using the values listed, adding them all together, and using the result is not a good way to figure out a LA. But if you add up all the numbers and it comes up as a 3.6 it gives you a good starting point.

#4 I want to hear what you all think. There is no way I, or probably any other single person can complete this.

Below is what I have started. Not too much, but I figured I would post this, and continue working on it.

Size and Type: Medium and Humanoid is the base. Sizes above and below medium are probably worth around .1/size category difference. Small however is probably around the same as medium. Most types other then Humanoid is probably worth around .1-.2, since they make you immune to certain things like charm person and the like. Constructs and Undead are two that have a lot of immunities (And some built in weaknesses) and are worth much more (Not sure yet, would love suggestions)
Speed: Base speed is 30 land. Swimming, climbing, Burrowing, and Flying are common special ones.
+10 speed probably around a .1
Swimming is useful, but not too powerful generally, probably .1 or /2
Climbing around same as swimming .1-.2
Burrowing is rarer. The three common types are digging (Pushing dirt behind you) burrowing (Like a worm, you disturb the earth, and leave a trail, but better then digging) and Gliding (Like an earth elemental) Probably .2 dig, .3-..4 burrow, and .5 for glide. Glide should also only appear on an ECL of around 3+
Flying. Speed, maneuverability, and winged/non winged are all modifiers for this. .5+ as a base, on a ECL 2 as a base. Raptorians gain flying over a long time, and are a good example of reducing its worth to fit with an LA +0
Armor Class: Different types are more useful then other. Dodge being one of the best, followed by rare ones (So they normally stack) then more common like deflection and natural armor.
Special Attacks:
There are so so many. Feel free to start listing them.
Spell-Like Abilities: Again, so so many.

Special Qualities:
Other vision types (Lowlight, Darkvision, blindsence. Etc.)
—Immunity (Disease, poison, crits. Etc)
—Resistances (Elements, spells, or things listed in immunities.)
—Damage reduction: X/N The bigger X is the better. N ranges from magic, materials, and alignments.)

Abilities: Somewhere around a .2/ +2 to a stat.
NerdNumber1
05-05-07, 10:15 PM I didn't get through much, but you really have to rethink the size modifications. Just large sized creatures are monsters due to their reach and improved damage. Add bonuses to almost all special melee attacks and you destroy the game. I like the idea, but this will be neigh-impossible to pull off.
Zuractai
05-06-07, 12:04 AM I didn't think of reach... Yea, larger should have bigger. With size though I am excluding the stat +/- (Having them go under stats) There should probaly be specific values listed for Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal. The minimal ECL for the smallest and largest would also probaly be around 5-8. And yea, the guild will never be perfect/complete, but the current ways are almost all "Compare to something similar"
Damior
05-06-07, 08:14 PM Doesnt YabbatheWhat already have a LA system that works really well? Why do we need another?
FatMonkey13
05-06-07, 08:29 PM Doesnt YabbatheWhat already have a LA system that works really well? Why do we need another?

Well if we have multiple systems then we can put a creature through multiple systems to see if the systems have a consensus. If they do then we know that the creature is done well.

Also some systems are very simple and other are more complex and each has its merits.

Lest I saw Yaba is no longer able to continue his system and did not perfect it. Also may of its assumptions are not shared by all.
Firestick42
05-06-07, 09:49 PM I personally had issues with Yaba's guide, he valued cantrips way too much, among other things.

Really, there's no need for an LA guide at all. LA is largely dependent on the campaign, the class/race interaction, and plenty of other stuff.

It's easy enough to guess what LA something should have based on the LA given to other creatures. Since it's a whole number, you don't have to worry about fractions or anything, just pick a conservatively large number and go with it. If you're wrong, then the player just gets another level to make up for it.
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-06-07, 11:31 PM Okay, this sums up the reasons why I disagree with this guide's premises:

The Acid Test
The following is a failproof guide to determining the ECL of a race. Keep in mind that it breaks down for races with "impossible" abilities, such as a character that treats all of its Hit Dice as D12s and gains spellcasting as a sorcerer of twice his class level. This process is guaranteed to produce accurate results, and requires no additional add-ons due to changes in the D&D rules or newly published sources. It also accounts for stacking and overlapping abilities, making it vastly superior to any point-based system.

Step 1: Stat up a level 1 character of the race you have made. The level should be in its favored class, which should be whatever class meshes well with its abilities, a favored class that meshes poorly will throw off this process.
Step 2: Stat up a level 1 human, of the same class and feat and skill selection (i.e., if the race has a favored class of ranger and multiple arms, you should make a Two-Weapon Fighting oriented ranger). This character should have the same ability scores (before racial modifiers, this is easiest if you use point buy for both), and similar equipment, with identical amounts of wealth.
Step 3: Compare the two characters. If the character of the new race seems to have a noticeable overall advantage (compare skills and activities based on each of the six abilities scores, including combat), proceed to step 4. Otherwise, proceed to step 5.
Step 4: Increase the human's level by 1 in the same class (assuming this is appropriate, for example, a race that is intended to make a very good assassin should have the human progress into the assassin prestige class). Give both characters wealth and equipment appropriate for the human's new level, according to the PC wealth guidelines in the DMG. Repeat step 3.
Step 5: The new race has an Effective Level Adjustment equal to the human's level minus one.
Jaxgaret
05-07-07, 12:05 AM My goal is to create an as accurate guide for figuring out LA as possible.

I want to hear what you all think. There is no way I, or probably any other single person can complete this.

All I can say is good luck, my friend.

What you are thinking about undertaking is an enormous enterprise. It is possible, certainly, but the cost in terms of effort and time is monumental. It's probably not worth it, really. LA is a broken system to begin with anyway; my advice to you - just rule how you want in your games, and forget this madness of creating the perfect system. It's going to become moot whenever 4.0 comes out, regardless.

Yaba's FP system is deeply flawed, and it's the best we've gotten so far.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zuractai 05-05-07, 09:17 PM	My goal is to create an as accurate guide for figuring out LA as possible. As a base I am going to round things to a +/- .1 I will list a couple ideas that I am using as a base idea. #1 Certain abilities are more or less powerful depending upon the total starting ECL (Racial hit dice + LA) To reflect this I will also try and include a minimal ECL this ability should appear with. Regeneration 1 for example, shouldn’t appear on a +1 LA race, even if it is worth about a +1 LA. #2 Certain powers can also get more powerful and be worth near to the same amount depending upon the total ECL. An example is flying. Fly speed 60 average is less powerful then Fly speed 100 perfect, but if the race has a +8 LA, it isn’t realy a big increase. #3 This is only a guideline. Just using the values listed, adding them all together, and using the result is not a good way to figure out a LA. But if you add up all the numbers and it comes up as a 3.6 it gives you a good starting point. #4 I want to hear what you all think. There is no way I, or probably any other single person can complete this. Below is what I have started. Not too much, but I figured I would post this, and continue working on it. Size and Type: Medium and Humanoid is the base. Sizes above and below medium are probably worth around .1/size category difference. Small however is probably around the same as medium. Most types other then Humanoid is probably worth around .1-.2, since they make you immune to certain things like charm person and the like. Constructs and Undead are two that have a lot of immunities (And some built in weaknesses) and are worth much more (Not sure yet, would love suggestions) Speed: Base speed is 30 land. Swimming, climbing, Burrowing, and Flying are common special ones. +10 speed probably around a .1 Swimming is useful, but not too powerful generally, probably .1 or /2 Climbing around same as swimming .1-.2 Burrowing is rarer. The three common types are digging (Pushing dirt behind you) burrowing (Like a worm, you disturb the earth, and leave a trail, but better then digging) and Gliding (Like an earth elemental) Probably .2 dig, .3-..4 burrow, and .5 for glide. Glide should also only appear on an ECL of around 3+ Flying. Speed, maneuverability, and winged/non winged are all modifiers for this. .5+ as a base, on a ECL 2 as a base. Raptorians gain flying over a long time, and are a good example of reducing its worth to fit with an LA +0 Armor Class: Different types are more useful then other. Dodge being one of the best, followed by rare ones (So they normally stack) then more common like deflection and natural armor. Special Attacks: There are so so many. Feel free to start listing them. Spell-Like Abilities: Again, so so many. Special Qualities: Other vision types (Lowlight, Darkvision, blindsence. Etc.) —Immunity (Disease, poison, crits. Etc) —Resistances (Elements, spells, or things listed in immunities.) —Damage reduction: X/N The bigger X is the better. N ranges from magic, materials, and alignments.) Abilities: Somewhere around a .2/ +2 to a stat.
NerdNumber1 05-05-07, 10:15 PM	I didn't get through much, but you really have to rethink the size modifications. Just large sized creatures are monsters due to their reach and improved damage. Add bonuses to almost all special melee attacks and you destroy the game. I like the idea, but this will be neigh-impossible to pull off.
Zuractai 05-06-07, 12:04 AM	I didn't think of reach... Yea, larger should have bigger. With size though I am excluding the stat +/- (Having them go under stats) There should probaly be specific values listed for Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal. The minimal ECL for the smallest and largest would also probaly be around 5-8. And yea, the guild will never be perfect/complete, but the current ways are almost all "Compare to something similar"
Damior 05-06-07, 08:14 PM	Doesnt YabbatheWhat already have a LA system that works really well? Why do we need another?
FatMonkey13 05-06-07, 08:29 PM	Doesnt YabbatheWhat already have a LA system that works really well? Why do we need another? Well if we have multiple systems then we can put a creature through multiple systems to see if the systems have a consensus. If they do then we know that the creature is done well. Also some systems are very simple and other are more complex and each has its merits. Lest I saw Yaba is no longer able to continue his system and did not perfect it. Also may of its assumptions are not shared by all.
Firestick42 05-06-07, 09:49 PM	I personally had issues with Yaba's guide, he valued cantrips way too much, among other things. Really, there's no need for an LA guide at all. LA is largely dependent on the campaign, the class/race interaction, and plenty of other stuff. It's easy enough to guess what LA something should have based on the LA given to other creatures. Since it's a whole number, you don't have to worry about fractions or anything, just pick a conservatively large number and go with it. If you're wrong, then the player just gets another level to make up for it.
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-06-07, 11:31 PM	Okay, this sums up the reasons why I disagree with this guide's premises: The Acid Test The following is a failproof guide to determining the ECL of a race. Keep in mind that it breaks down for races with "impossible" abilities, such as a character that treats all of its Hit Dice as D12s and gains spellcasting as a sorcerer of twice his class level. This process is guaranteed to produce accurate results, and requires no additional add-ons due to changes in the D&D rules or newly published sources. It also accounts for stacking and overlapping abilities, making it vastly superior to any point-based system. Step 1: Stat up a level 1 character of the race you have made. The level should be in its favored class, which should be whatever class meshes well with its abilities, a favored class that meshes poorly will throw off this process. Step 2: Stat up a level 1 human, of the same class and feat and skill selection (i.e., if the race has a favored class of ranger and multiple arms, you should make a Two-Weapon Fighting oriented ranger). This character should have the same ability scores (before racial modifiers, this is easiest if you use point buy for both), and similar equipment, with identical amounts of wealth. Step 3: Compare the two characters. If the character of the new race seems to have a noticeable overall advantage (compare skills and activities based on each of the six abilities scores, including combat), proceed to step 4. Otherwise, proceed to step 5. Step 4: Increase the human's level by 1 in the same class (assuming this is appropriate, for example, a race that is intended to make a very good assassin should have the human progress into the assassin prestige class). Give both characters wealth and equipment appropriate for the human's new level, according to the PC wealth guidelines in the DMG. Repeat step 3. Step 5: The new race has an Effective Level Adjustment equal to the human's level minus one.
Jaxgaret 05-07-07, 12:05 AM	My goal is to create an as accurate guide for figuring out LA as possible. I want to hear what you all think. There is no way I, or probably any other single person can complete this. All I can say is good luck, my friend. What you are thinking about undertaking is an enormous enterprise. It is possible, certainly, but the cost in terms of effort and time is monumental. It's probably not worth it, really. LA is a broken system to begin with anyway; my advice to you - just rule how you want in your games, and forget this madness of creating the perfect system. It's going to become moot whenever 4.0 comes out, regardless. Yaba's FP system is deeply flawed, and it's the best we've gotten so far.