Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ktastrophe 05-23-07, 08:49 PM	I NEED the Level Adjustment for a Cat... seriously, just a cat, I need the correct level adjustment for it, i tried making it myself but my head nearly exploded, the best I could com up is like -4.:eek: Also, If a character (player) chooses for race, a monster with a (-) level Adjustment, how would he work it out into the regular game by giving it class levels?:confused:
WolfHati 05-23-07, 08:51 PM	If someone wants to play a (assumedly awakened) cat, let them play a cat. They really don't need level adjustment for it. Negative LAs are easily abused anyway, specially with casters.
ktastrophe 05-23-07, 08:57 PM	Yeah, but he wants to make it Half-Celestial, which gives it a +4 Level Adjustment and I want to work it out so that there are no problems with it. I mean, if the sum of both adjustments equals 0 then no prob, so I wanted to no what it's correct level adjustment would be. I know he gets -1 for Size, +1 for Scent and then I completely lost it on the ability scores~!
Wiz_Eldrick 05-23-07, 09:06 PM	I'm not too sure about what the LA should be, but are you sure about the -1 for size? Sizes are "auto-balanced", and shouldn't result in and change to LA at all. The smaller you are, the weaker, but you also get bonuses to AC and attack, neither of which are to be taken lightly. (Not to mention the being able to squeeze into all those tight spaces that larger characters can't!)
ygdrassilus 05-23-07, 09:08 PM	You need to evaluate the class of the character who wants to play the cat. I've had personal experience with playing a tiny character, and if the player is going to be a rogue or a caster, most of the disadvantages of being a cat become advantages, and don't deserve a negative LA. In fact, for certain classes I'd say they deserve a positive LA. You may even out if you're going to be strict about limiting his ability to cast spells with somatic components, wield weapons, find appropriately sized/shaped gear, etc. If you plan on being a nice DM and accomodating the character (which tends to be the result of bizarro PC choices in the end), he should probably recieve a positive LA for the cat and for the half celestial template (unless he's playing a fighter class).
Fireclave 05-23-07, 09:08 PM	Being a cat actually has quite a few positives: Tiny size gives you a fairly high natural AC and bonuses to hide. Racial bonuses to Climb, Hide, Move Silently, and Balance. Weapon Finesse as a racial bonus feat. And we can't forget Scent and Low-Light vision. And there are simple ways of getting around the "no hands" issue. A negative LA is not needed or warranted. I would almost say that they would actually need a LA of +1 or higher if it wasn't for the fact that generally, if you are playing an intelligent animal character, you'll likely be an awakened animal. Being awakened tacks on 2 racial HD which, while not extremely sucktacular, are still bad enough to balance out the racial goodies. To conclude: Make the cat an awakened cat. Done.
ktastrophe 05-23-07, 09:12 PM	I read on the Savage Species that smaller creatures get - lvl adj, but I never thought of the rogue/spellcaster thing... that might represent some trouble, I don't want him to star casting fireball and the likes from a very advantageous point, or spam the Sneak Attack!:eek:
Fireclave 05-23-07, 09:31 PM	I read on the Savage Species that smaller creatures get - lvl adj, but I never thought of the rogue/spellcaster thing... that might represent some trouble, I don't want him to star casting fireball and the likes from a very advantageous point, or spam the Sneak Attack!:eek: The Savage Species guidelines for determining LA are a bit iffy. They're an okay ballpark if you're trying to build something close to a standard race, but a cat is hardly standard. Nonstandard bonuses on top of very nonstandard penalties (can't use hands, 3 str, no reach) makes it impossible to apply a reliable LA formula.
Fallenangel359 05-23-07, 10:28 PM	I'd take the cat from monster manual, remove the base attack bonus, and remove 5 from all skills that have points in them. Then give it as LA 0, with no hit dice
neilthrun 05-23-07, 10:50 PM	I'm not too sure about what the LA should be, but are you sure about the -1 for size? Sizes are "auto-balanced", and shouldn't result in and change to LA at all. The smaller you are, the weaker, but you also get bonuses to AC and attack, neither of which are to be taken lightly. (Not to mention the being able to squeeze into all those tight spaces that larger characters can't!) I disagre sizes are auto balanced. I'd have a hard time making a collosal creature that was +0 la.
Fireclave 05-23-07, 11:04 PM	I'd take the cat from monster manual, remove the base attack bonus, and remove 5 from all skills that have points in them. Then give it as LA 0, with no hit dice A cat only has ranks in two skills. 2 ranks in spot and 2 ranks in listen for a grand total of 4 skill points. Eveything else comes from ability modifiers, racial bonuses, feats, and its size modifier. Balance +10 = +8 racial +2 dex CLimb +6 = +4 racial +2 dex Hide +16 = +4 racial +8 tiny +2dex +2 Stealthy feat Jump +10 = +8 racial +2 dex Listen +3 = +1 wis +2 ranks Move Silently +8 = +4 racial + 2dex +2 Stealthy feat Spot +3 = +1 wis +2 ranks
Bluehero 05-23-07, 11:32 PM	In oriental adventures there is a race called the hengeyokai. It can turn into a cat, and is intelligent. When originally made for 3.0 it was said to be a LA of +0 but later in Dragon magazine they updated oriental adventures to 3.5 and the hengeyokai's LA was made +0. Therefore, I would say that a cat has a LA of +0. (The other features of the race had to do with shapeshifting back and forth, having the shapechanger subtype and -2 wisdom, but those are pretty much irrelivent if you get rid of all of them.)
Fireclave 05-23-07, 11:50 PM	In oriental adventures there is a race called the hengeyokai. It can turn into a cat, and is intelligent. When originally made for 3.0 it was said to be a LA of +0 but later in Dragon magazine they updated oriental adventures to 3.5 and the hengeyokai's LA was made +0. Therefore, I would say that a cat has a LA of +0. (The other features of the race had to do with shapeshifting back and forth, having the shapechanger subtype and -2 wisdom, but those are pretty much irrelivent if you get rid of all of them.) Do kengeyokai get the extraordinary qualities of a cat when they change forms? I wouldn't think so because scent, at least, is probably still worth a +1 LA.
Morwen 05-24-07, 12:02 AM	Anthropomorphic Cat (Savage Species) has LA +1 and 2 racial hit dice.
IceFractal 05-24-07, 12:03 AM	That's no a very valid comparison - hengeyokai get the positive qualities of being a cat, with none of the downside (such as lack of hands). Being able to assume a form is often much more powerful than always being in that form. For instance, compare a race that can turn into an adamantine statue, with a race that is an adamantine statue. Big difference. Now as to an (awakened) cat in particular: * Str -8, Dex +4, Wis +2, Cha -2: That's ok for some classes, bad for others. Even for a mage-type, the pitiful strength hurts a lot if you get grappled. So I'd say LA +0. * Skill Bonuses, Weapon Finesse, Scent: Better than what most races get, not uber-powerful, but still LA +1 * Tiny Size: Has upsides and downsides. I'm going to say LA +0, although this is highly dependant on the type of character. * No Hands, Can't Talk: These are some pretty big penalties, worth at least LA -1, maybe even LA -2. So, overall, LA +0. This is for a class that can benefit from it though - it would be more like -3 LA for a Warrior-type.
Fireclave 05-24-07, 12:52 AM	@IceFractal Minor nitpick, but an awakened animal can talk and will know at least one language.
BW0222 05-24-07, 08:49 AM	Folks, There are not negative level adjustments. Cat is LA 0, even if intelligent it is hardly an issue. Size, low-light, scent, hide bonuses, general ability to avoid combat (no one attacks a cat), sneak/spy in urban settings... etc. if that doesn't make up for an inability to speak, manipulate objectives, etc. then tough. Don't play one. If it was awakened, then it has 2 racial hit dice. It still doesn't need a LA, the +2 for 2hd is more than enough of an issue. neilthrun, I disagre sizes are auto balanced. I'd have a hard time making a collosal creature that was +0 la Why? It isn't the size which makes any difference, it is the massive strength and constition bonuses, natural armor, etc. Imagine someone being collosal and having not strength, con, or other special abilities. Imagine 10hp and an AC of 7 to start with? They can't enter cities, towns, buildings, inns. Can't ue any equipment. They can't roleplay with anyone. They can't go into sewers, dungeons, forest areas, roads, etc., etc. They might scare a few folks away, but for the most part they have to shut-up and do nothing while the rest of the party clears out the cave. In reality, the race would be unplayable. Might as well stay at home. In combat, a few archers will likely drop him long before he gets near the battlemap. Of course most collosal creatures are going to have LA, but that would be due massive stat adjustments, reach, natural AC, etc.
Grim04 05-24-07, 04:37 PM	I'd say make it an awakened cat of LA +0 for spellcaster, and -2 for a rogue, -3 for anything else. I'm making an awakened cat PC in my next campaign, and even thought it says you gain 2 HD using the spell Awaken, it does not say you gain 2 racial HD, so you start out at second level. Which is good since it's a 4th level game anyways. I forgot, a bonus that a cat has that's been overlooked by most is it's increased speed even though it's tiny.
Fireclave 05-24-07, 05:22 PM	I'd say make it an awakened cat of LA +0 for spellcaster, and -2 for a rogue, -3 for anything else. I'm making an awakened cat PC in my next campaign, and even thought it says you gain 2 HD using the spell Awaken, it does not say you gain 2 racial HD, so you start out at second level. Which is good since it's a 4th level game anyways. I forgot, a bonus that a cat has that's been overlooked by most is it's increased speed even though it's tiny. The Awaken spell says the targeter creature gains +2 HD, not that it's HD become 2. That means you add +2 HD on top of whatever other HD it was. For a cat, that would be +2 HD on top of its initial 1 animal HD. On the up side, since the animal becomes a magical beast, those additional +2 HD are magical beast HD. The only way adding +2 HD would result in a 2HD creature is if the creature originally had 0 HD. And that would just be silly :) Though you might be able to argue that since a cat's HD is technically 1/2 D8, you could round down and replace it completely. But that sounds a bit iffy to me.
Grim04 05-24-07, 07:11 PM	Yes, it says it gains 2 HD. You can use additional HD to advance races by character classes, thus making the cat a 2nd level whatever. You'd round down, because there are no 2 and 1/8 HD animals.
sabrewolf 05-24-07, 09:31 PM	IceFractalīs reply was a good one, yet iīd give an "overall -1 LA": Negative LA shouldnt exist, itīs a tricky thing thatīs sure to be abused (by casters mostly). The abstract "-1 LA" is all iīd consider for balancing matters with other things (like awaken). Itīs stats have an overall balance give a -4 st ( with the other -4 st and +4 dx evening out as well as the +2 wis -2 cha), but since itīs tinny itīs probably a reflex of that. Of the other stats iīd consider only the scent as giving a +1 and at least -1 for the lack of hands. Even all rounding up to 0 LA iīd say 0- LA, or "-1 LA" for balance. The half celestial is +4 LA and awaken give 2 HD. Iīd dilute the bonus HD from awaken into his half celestial LA and the fact itīs now a PC - able to get clas levels - giving an end result of a class HD (replacing his initial one) +3 LA.. +4 if the class HDs count up for itīs spell-like abilities. If not for the half-celestial iīd give it a "-1 LA" and would end up with an awakened cat character with 2 class-HD (only) counting as lvl 1. In the end, though, such a characterīs balance would be beter judged in game instead of machanics-only... iīd talk to the player saying i could ask for a +1 extra LA along the game if i found the character to be growing unbalanced - though this balancing would be mostly for the half celestial adjustment. But thatīs just me as a DM... Off topic, iīve considered once playing as an awakened critter - a wizard, skunk ex-familiar - so, iīm curious about how such a character actually fares in game... Take care..
boogyman 05-25-07, 11:02 AM	I'd say make it an awakened cat of LA +0 for spellcaster, and -2 for a rogue, -3 for anything else. I'm making an awakened cat PC in my next campaign, and even thought it says you gain 2 HD using the spell Awaken, it does not say you gain 2 racial HD, so you start out at second level. Which is good since it's a 4th level game anyways. I forgot, a bonus that a cat has that's been overlooked by most is it's increased speed even though it's tiny. ok i see you're fixated on cat spellcasters, just answer me this. how does it cast? it has no hands which means no somatic components and no material which narrows down the spell list plus if it was awakened from a mundane animal and not a second gen awakened animal then there's probably no verbal only spells made to be spoken in meows. Cats aren't mages Rogues on the other hand, +8 to hide and 2 claw attacks to sneak attack with, that's pretty good even with the str penalty so cat rogues work pretty well
tui 05-25-07, 11:22 AM	ok i see you're fixated on cat spellcasters, just answer me this. how does it cast? it has no hands which means no somatic components and no material which narrows down the spell list Well, it could take Eschew Materials. That gets rid of all but the costly material components. It doesn't address the somatic components, though, and having to Still Spell everything that has a somatic component is pretty rough. While I don't know squat about psionics, I tend to think that might be where a cat character would really excel, especially if it had a negative LA, since there are no components to deal with. And your points about Rogues are great.
aotrscommander 05-25-07, 11:34 AM	I'd be tempted to say if you do have a negative LA, it only counts towards removing positive LA, otheriwse it counts as LA +0.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-25-07, 11:39 AM	I'd be tempted to say if you do have a negative LA, it only counts towards removing positive LA, otheriwse it counts as LA +0. And I'd be tempted to agree.
Nathreet 05-25-07, 11:45 AM	Whenever making a new creature, find similar creature(s) to compare, and pick the LA accordingly. But, stepping aside from that for a moment, how did an angel mate with a cat?? I think what you really want is a "Celestial Creature". http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm Figure out its stats, compare to other monsters, then set the LA accordingly. EDIT: I can see how a celestial cat might mate with a house cat, and still be considered half-celestial.
obrysii 05-25-07, 11:45 AM	Well, it could take Eschew Materials. That gets rid of all but the costly material components. It doesn't address the somatic components, though, and having to Still Spell everything that has a somatic component is pretty rough. The feat "Surrogate Spellcasting" allows you to substitute normal somatic and verbal components for something your form is capable of--verbal and somatic components, that is. So a cat would mew and shake its' paws instead of whispering arcane secrets while doing hand gestures, or something.
Keenath 05-25-07, 11:48 AM	plus if it was awakened from a mundane animal and not a second gen awakened animal then there's probably no verbal only spells made to be spoken in meows.Have you ever actually read the Awaken spell? "An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you [the caster] know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any)." Okay? Awakened cats can talk, and may be able to speak MULTIPLE languages!
Keenath 05-25-07, 12:03 PM	But, stepping aside from that for a moment, how did an angel mate with a cat?? I think what you really want is a "Celestial Creature". EDIT: I can see how a celestial cat might mate with a house cat, and still be considered half-celestial.Not really. The Half-Celestial template is clearly written with the assumption that we're talking about an actual angel or eladrin as the celestial half. Anyway, read the template. "Half-celestial is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or higher..." Cats -- natural ones in any case -- have INT 2 and don't qualify. You'd have to awaken it, and that doesn't work because it's an inherited template, so events later in life can't qualify you for it. The only way it would work is if you assume that Awakening is heritable, and I see no evidence that it is; that's up to the DM, I suppose.
Lina_Inverse 05-25-07, 07:39 PM	I'm not too sure about what the LA should be, but are you sure about the -1 for size? Sizes are "auto-balanced", and shouldn't result in and change to LA at all. No there not. Sizes control reach. Reach > everything for melee. Tiny means a reach of 0ft.
Grim04 05-25-07, 07:53 PM	Get Draconic Heritage, and then practical spellcasting Still spell. Combine that eschew materials, and you have a spell casting cat.
Fireclave 05-25-07, 08:41 PM	Get Draconic Heritage, and then practical spellcasting Still spell. Combine that eschew materials, and you have a spell casting cat. Or you can do it the easy way: Psion. Done. Now the cat has the power to kill a commoner from 200 yards away...with mind bullets! That's telekinesis, Kyle.
Grim04 05-26-07, 12:09 AM	Or you can do it the easy way: Psion. Done. Now the cat has the power to kill a commoner from 200 yards away...with mind bullets! That's telekinesis, Kyle. Or you can do it the fun way!
Fireclave 05-26-07, 12:23 AM	Or you can do it the fun way! Not knocking your idea, but four feats to get a spellcaster started is a big resource sink. Besides, that feat chain won't allow the cat to cast spells any easier. Practical Spellcasting won't affect Still Spell because the former only reduces the level to a minimum of +1, and that's already Still Spell's cost. A feline spellcaster would be better off spending one feat and taking Surrogate Spellcasting, which would allow it to cast without hands with no level increase.
Grim04 05-26-07, 02:02 AM	Must have missed that part when I read Practical Metamagic. Surrogate Spellcasting works 10x better than my plan :D.
Thief_of_Hope 05-26-07, 02:20 AM	No there not. Sizes control reach. Reach > everything for melee. Tiny means a reach of 0ft. Actually, that's an excellent point. Your cat caster is really going to want to avoid touch spells. A lot. Because in the end, no matter how much AC your size is giving you, you really, REALLY don't want to take the risk that you're going to go squish, especially from AOO's. Speaking of touch spells, I only just realized that a cat spellcaster could get a cat familiar. Freaky. And as a side note, the cat doesn't HAVE to be awakened, it could just be an ex-familiar. Hmm. Ex-familiar cat sorcerer with a cat familar. That could be really fun and interesting to play!
Grim04 05-26-07, 03:01 AM	They only get one Aoo on you a round, and if you run into their square they'd get an Aoo, but then they wouldn't for you delivering the touch spell... so you wouldn't need to make a conc check.
Johnny_Angel 05-26-07, 03:21 AM	I have to ask: Since when do somatic components require hands? The cat could still make guestures by waving around his paws. I apologize if I sound like a stick in the mud, but I was thinking about this issue because it is something that is mentioned quite a bit when talking about awakened animal casters. Just because you don't have hands, that doesn't mean you can't fullfill somatic companents. If the cat was armless and legless, I would agree that he couldn't complete the somatic components; then again, there's always the tail to wave around I guess. Anyway, to address the original question: I wouldn't give the cat a LA. The 2 hit dice already give the player a +2 to his effective character level.
Fireclave 05-26-07, 03:57 AM	I have to ask: Since when do somatic components require hands? The cat could still make guestures by waving around his paws. Since always Somatic (S) A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component. Assuming that "precise movement of the hand" implies what humans would consider precise hand movement, a normal cat, and technically even an awakened one for that matter, wouldn't have the manual dexterity to equal a human's. Their paws can't mimic the manual dexterity of a human's hand, and their body structure prevents a range and control of motion with their forelimbs that's anywhere comparable to a human's. And considering how very little it takes to disrupt a human's range of motion to start affecting spellcasting, starting at 5% with padded armor, it's easy to see how hard it would be for a cat to make the proper gestures. (Since this is my take on the flavor of somatic components, I separated it from my main point) I like to think of gesture that make up somatic components as similar to drawing calligraphy in the air. The ability to attempt this action with the range of motions available to a cat would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. However, I can see a case being made for an divine casting cat. Divine somatic components are less like vital parts of some universal formula and more like a hand wave to their deity saying "Hey Godz, a lil' help here" (and hence the lack of ASF).
Gabriel Knight52 05-26-07, 04:32 PM	According to Dragon #293 [p.54] an Awakened cat has an ECL of 0. (Though this is probably a 3rd edition stat as the same table includes a "beast" category) The Celestial and Half-Celestial templates both have a LA +4 and there's not alot of ways to reduce it at first level. I'd try and talk your player into the Celestial Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm)trait, it doesn't have an LA. (you just have to take a "bloodline level" at or b4 certain points in your class progression) :)
Johnny_Angel 05-27-07, 03:16 AM	Since always Assuming that "precise movement of the hand" implies what humans would consider precise hand movement, a normal cat, and technically even an awakened one for that matter, wouldn't have the manual dexterity to equal a human's. Their paws can't mimic the manual dexterity of a human's hand, and their body structure prevents a range and control of motion with their forelimbs that's anywhere comparable to a human's. And considering how very little it takes to disrupt a human's range of motion to start affecting spellcasting, starting at 5% with padded armor, it's easy to see how hard it would be for a cat to make the proper gestures. (Since this is my take on the flavor of somatic components, I separated it from my main point) I like to think of gesture that make up somatic components as similar to drawing calligraphy in the air. The ability to attempt this action with the range of motions available to a cat would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. However, I can see a case being made for an divine casting cat. Divine somatic components are less like vital parts of some universal formula and more like a hand wave to their deity saying "Hey Godz, a lil' help here" (and hence the lack of ASF). A good point; however, not all spell casters use the exact same hand motions. I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that an awakened cat -a creature spawned from magic to begin with- has the knowledge to be know how to do guestures in a manner which would allow said cat to cast spells. I don't necessarily disagree with you because I can definately see your point of view, but, at the same time, I can't completely agree with you either. I could see it both ways. That's just me though.
FrozenSoul80 05-27-07, 09:01 AM	The only way it would work is if you assume that Awakening is heritable, and I see no evidence that it is; that's up to the DM, I suppose. It wouldn't neccessarily have to be heritable. The child could be awakened later in life. Sure, such an event would be rare, but that doesn't mean it isn't impossible.
TimelordSimone 05-27-07, 09:23 AM	A good point; however, not all spell casters use the exact same hand motions. I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that an awakened cat -a creature spawned from magic to begin with- has the knowledge to be know how to do guestures in a manner which would allow said cat to cast spells. Being picky, but... An awakened cat is spawned from divine magic. And arcane somatic components are more complicated than divine ones.
kdyal 05-27-07, 08:07 PM	The idea of a cat spellcaster is great, but... Spellbooks? How's it going to carry around its spellbooks? Maybe it always travels with its mount. A riding dog :w00t:
tui 05-27-07, 10:04 PM	Spellbooks? How's it going to carry around its spellbooks? We might be able to figure out a way to carry spellbooks, since the spellbook can take pretty much any form... but how's a cat going to scribe into the spellbook? Seems like another reason to go with a Sorcerer or Psion. Or Cleric, I guess, with a Holy Collar for a focus.
Fireclave 05-27-07, 10:26 PM	We might be able to figure out a way to carry spellbooks, since the spellbook can take pretty much any form... but how's a cat going to scribe into the spellbook? Eberron has an item that allows you to scribe spells inside of a crystal using Arcane Mark (spellshard, I think it's called). Depending on how strictly you describe the way Arcane Mark works, that would probably allow a cat to scribe its spells However, first it would need to be able to cast Arcane Mark in the first place so it can actually prepare the Arcane Mark to scribe his book with. Which is why it would take the Communicator feat (CA), granting access to Arcane Mark 1/day. It's a roundabout method, but it would still work.
Darth Sephiroth 05-28-07, 06:32 AM	I've been playing a Cat Sorcerer for a while with a draconic heritage for a while now and I've had fun. For abilities. Cat Race -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Int, +2 Wisdom Size: Tiny (+2 Attack and AC, -8 Grapple, +8 Hide, no reach) 2d10 Racial HD: Magical Beast granting (2+Int)x5 skill points with the following class skills: Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. These HD also grant a +2 to attack, fortitude, and reflex. Natural Attacks: 2 Claw Attacks (1d2) and a Bite attack (1d3). +4 Climb, Hide, and Move Silently +8 Jump and Balance Cat's use Dexterity instead of Strength for Jump and Climb checks Cat's gain an extra +4 to hide checks in areas of tall grass or heavy undregrowth Speed: 30 ft Low-Light Vision Scent Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse Languages: Common Bonus Languages: Any Favored Class: Any Note: You may want to consider allowing a cat character to swap out weapon and armor proficiencies for other feats