Thri-kreen, monk, and natural attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Thri-kreen, monk, and natural attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ankha
04-06-07, 11:31 AM "Thri-kreen possess six limbs, and usually use one pair for locomotion and the other two pairs as arms. They have excellent physical capabilities, allowing them to jump great distances. They also have sharp claws, poisonous bites"... etc.

I refer to the Thri-kreen described in the Shining South book (Forgotten Realms), not the one from the psionic handbook.

The fact that they have 4 arms grant them 4 natural attacks. These are its primary attack. Its secondary attack is its poisonous bite.

According to the PHB and the Monster manual, if the Thri-kreen uses its secondary attack, it takes a -5 penalty on it. The MM Multiattack feat reduces the penalty to -2. But since its secondary attack is its bite, if the character doesn't use it, it gets 4 claw attacks at max Base Attack.

I don't understand if this is correct because it seems overpowered to me. A Monk Thri-kreen could get 4 attacks at level 1, and get extra attacks each 5-6 levels (as its BAB goes up).
Another oddity : why would then a human monk get a penalty when using both fists? Both could be considered as primary attacks, wouldn't they?

I've always been and still am very puzzled with this one.
Captain_Kobold
04-06-07, 12:01 PM I don't understand if this is correct because it seems overpowered to me. A Monk Thri-kreen could get 4 attacks at level 1, and get extra attacks each 5-6 levels (as its BAB goes up).

What is the Level Adjustment and racial hit dice of the Thri-keen you are using? It might be only a level 1 monk, but the rest of the party should be around level 6. It might get extra monk or weapon attacks eventually, but it will never gain more claw attacks.

The Thri-keen should be able to use its 4 claw attacks at no penalty, even if it uses its bite.

If it attacks as a Monk, it will get all its Monk attacks (including flurry of blows), then 3 claws and bite at -5(plus the flurry of blows penalty).

When used in conjunction with a weapon attack (including monk attacks) all natural weapons are considered secondary and thus have the -5 penalty to hit. (Less with Multiattack.)

Another oddity : why would then a human monk get a penalty when using both fists? Both could be considered as primary attacks, wouldn't they?

Fists, even with Improved Unarmed strike, do not count as natural weapons. Thus you only get one base attack from them (Unless you do two-weapon fighting with them) but you do get more attacks as your Base attack bonus improves.

I;m hoping I've got the details right here. If not, I'm sure someone better-versed can correct my mistakes.
Ankha
04-06-07, 12:42 PM This version has a LA of +1 and 2 HD.

It might get extra monk or weapon attacks eventually, but it will never gain more claw attacks.
I'm not sure to understand : what if its BAB reaches +6/+1. Doesn't it get an extra claw attack?

The Thri-keen should be able to use its 4 claw attacks at no penalty, even if it uses its bite.You mean the Multiattack feat from the MM reduces the penalties on the bite attack, but either way, there's no penalty on the claw attacks, right?

If it attacks as a Monk, it will get all its Monk attacks (including flurry of blows), then 3 claws and bite at -5(plus the flurry of blows penalty).I'm confused again. Why 3 attacks? Does it mean that the Trih-kreen should be considered to have 1 attack (claw or something else) + 3 claw attacks + 1 bite attack and not simply 4 claw attacks?

When used in conjunction with a weapon attack (including monk attacks) all natural weapons are considered secondary and thus have the -5 penalty to hit. (Less with Multiattack.)Do you have a reference? I'm very confused and I'd appreciate very much a clear reference.
Cameron_DuModre
04-06-07, 12:55 PM Because you get 1 attack (improved unarmed strike) as a monk would take 1 claw away from the total. (Of course out of character you can describe that attack any way that you want to) and that leaves 3 claws which have not 'used up' their attacks as natural attacks. These natural attacks are secondary to your monk attack (improved unarmed strike).

At least that's what I think he's saying. I've never really looked into it but it would seem pretty bizarre for a +1LA 2hd player to be able to do 5 attacks without penalty at level 1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ankha 04-06-07, 11:31 AM	"Thri-kreen possess six limbs, and usually use one pair for locomotion and the other two pairs as arms. They have excellent physical capabilities, allowing them to jump great distances. They also have sharp claws, poisonous bites"... etc. I refer to the Thri-kreen described in the Shining South book (Forgotten Realms), not the one from the psionic handbook. The fact that they have 4 arms grant them 4 natural attacks. These are its primary attack. Its secondary attack is its poisonous bite. According to the PHB and the Monster manual, if the Thri-kreen uses its secondary attack, it takes a -5 penalty on it. The MM Multiattack feat reduces the penalty to -2. But since its secondary attack is its bite, if the character doesn't use it, it gets 4 claw attacks at max Base Attack. I don't understand if this is correct because it seems overpowered to me. A Monk Thri-kreen could get 4 attacks at level 1, and get extra attacks each 5-6 levels (as its BAB goes up). Another oddity : why would then a human monk get a penalty when using both fists? Both could be considered as primary attacks, wouldn't they? I've always been and still am very puzzled with this one.
Captain_Kobold 04-06-07, 12:01 PM	I don't understand if this is correct because it seems overpowered to me. A Monk Thri-kreen could get 4 attacks at level 1, and get extra attacks each 5-6 levels (as its BAB goes up). What is the Level Adjustment and racial hit dice of the Thri-keen you are using? It might be only a level 1 monk, but the rest of the party should be around level 6. It might get extra monk or weapon attacks eventually, but it will never gain more claw attacks. The Thri-keen should be able to use its 4 claw attacks at no penalty, even if it uses its bite. If it attacks as a Monk, it will get all its Monk attacks (including flurry of blows), then 3 claws and bite at -5(plus the flurry of blows penalty). When used in conjunction with a weapon attack (including monk attacks) all natural weapons are considered secondary and thus have the -5 penalty to hit. (Less with Multiattack.) Another oddity : why would then a human monk get a penalty when using both fists? Both could be considered as primary attacks, wouldn't they? Fists, even with Improved Unarmed strike, do not count as natural weapons. Thus you only get one base attack from them (Unless you do two-weapon fighting with them) but you do get more attacks as your Base attack bonus improves. I;m hoping I've got the details right here. If not, I'm sure someone better-versed can correct my mistakes.
Ankha 04-06-07, 12:42 PM	This version has a LA of +1 and 2 HD. It might get extra monk or weapon attacks eventually, but it will never gain more claw attacks. I'm not sure to understand : what if its BAB reaches +6/+1. Doesn't it get an extra claw attack? The Thri-keen should be able to use its 4 claw attacks at no penalty, even if it uses its bite.You mean the Multiattack feat from the MM reduces the penalties on the bite attack, but either way, there's no penalty on the claw attacks, right? If it attacks as a Monk, it will get all its Monk attacks (including flurry of blows), then 3 claws and bite at -5(plus the flurry of blows penalty).I'm confused again. Why 3 attacks? Does it mean that the Trih-kreen should be considered to have 1 attack (claw or something else) + 3 claw attacks + 1 bite attack and not simply 4 claw attacks? When used in conjunction with a weapon attack (including monk attacks) all natural weapons are considered secondary and thus have the -5 penalty to hit. (Less with Multiattack.)Do you have a reference? I'm very confused and I'd appreciate very much a clear reference.
Cameron_DuModre 04-06-07, 12:55 PM	Because you get 1 attack (improved unarmed strike) as a monk would take 1 claw away from the total. (Of course out of character you can describe that attack any way that you want to) and that leaves 3 claws which have not 'used up' their attacks as natural attacks. These natural attacks are secondary to your monk attack (improved unarmed strike). At least that's what I think he's saying. I've never really looked into it but it would seem pretty bizarre for a +1LA 2hd player to be able to do 5 attacks without penalty at level 1.