Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 07-12-07, 04:39 PM	How do you deal with the issue that tieflings' charisma penalty makes them bad it things that, thematically, you frequently think they "ought" to be good at, such as being favored souls of dark gods, sinister sorcerers, or warlocks? (Not just "bad" in the sense of "of course they're bad -- they have a level adjustment, which is bad for casters!" but bad in the actual sense that they'd be bad at it even without a level adjustment.) Drop the charisma penalty, along with, perhaps, one of the bonuses? Use aasimar ability scores and just claim that the character is a tiefling nonetheless? Give them some sort of substitution level for the affected classes that make up for their weak charisma?
zorgling25 07-12-07, 04:59 PM	How do you deal with the issue that tieflings' charisma penalty makes them bad it things that, thematically, you frequently think they "ought" to be good at, such as being favored souls of dark gods, sinister sorcerers, or warlocks? (Not just "bad" in the sense of "of course they're bad -- they have a level adjustment, which is bad for casters!" but bad in the actual sense that they'd be bad at it even without a level adjustment.) Drop the charisma penalty, along with, perhaps, one of the bonuses? Use aasimar ability scores and just claim that the character is a tiefling nonetheless? Give them some sort of substitution level for the affected classes that make up for their weak charisma? Dwarves have a charisma drop. So do half orcs. Show me where it says that tieflings are "supposed" to be good at being sorcerers, warlocks, and favored souls? They have int and dex bonuses, which means they do fine being evil wizards and rogues/assassins. What more do you want?
hiryuu 07-12-07, 05:01 PM	Our group uses -2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. It's effectively just double the old 2E stats, just like most of the revised races (we've also got charts to exchange spell-like abilities and energy resistances, just like the old tiefling, just minus the random abilities).
JulesCARV 07-12-07, 05:49 PM	Dwarves have a charisma drop. So do half orcs. Show me where it says that tieflings are "supposed" to be good at being sorcerers, warlocks, and favored souls? They have int and dex bonuses, which means they do fine being evil wizards and rogues/assassins. What more do you want? I guess the imagery in my head is just different from yours. I don't really see dwarves or half-orcs as being sorcerous, fiendish, or unholy, but I think of tieflings as being all of that. I'm not saying they should necessarily excel in the classes I mentioned, but I tend to think that they should at least not be worse than average at them. There's nothing official saying that they should be good as sorcerers, warlocks, or favored souls, but I still tend to think that these are classes to which a fair number of tieflings "should" naturally gravitate, as a matter of thematics. I suppose it's ultimately a matter of personal preference, but I see tieflings as being "appropriate" for various charisma-oriented classes that I mentioned much more than I see dwarves or half-orcs (or elans, or etc) that way.
zorgling25 07-12-07, 06:51 PM	I guess the imagery in my head is just different from yours. I don't really see dwarves or half-orcs as being sorcerous, fiendish, or unholy, but I think of tieflings as being all of that. IMO being fiendish and unholy are not traits that would necessarily associate with high or low charisma. I do see them as sorcerous, but not as being driven by great passion or emotion to their magical study, but by logic and cold scheming. Part of the issue for me is that tieflings (and aasimars), as well as half-celestials and half-fiends, are not differentiated by the types of celestials and fiends they are born from. While I would think a demon-born tiefling would fit more into your scheme of sorcerers and warlocks, devil-born tieflings would fit more of the cold, scheming, wizardly type. As there is no distinction, their current set of stats makes sense to me, as their charisma drop is associated with their inability (due to fiendlike traits) to associate appropriately in a society of non-fiendish creatures. Maybe aasimar, tieflings, half-celestials, and half-fiends should be applied the way lycanthropes are done, with a base celestial or fiend, from which the race derives traits. Or maybe I'm just making this too complicated. :D
Dead_Weasel 07-12-07, 07:02 PM	Actually tieflings work well as warlocks because of the Dex boost; the Cha penalty does not even come into play if you select invocations without saves. It hurts your UMD, but the skill points from Int make up for that.
zae 07-13-07, 07:50 AM	I tend to use Aasimar as the "My ancestors were prettier than yours" planetouched (the nicer looking Celestials, Succubi, Mariliths (questionable), Erinyes, Glabre... never mind), and Tieflings as either mysterious, unknown beings (as per the original Planescape - their own race, and just something different) or the... less pretty planetouched. Yes I know Charisma != prettiness, but the prettier Outsiders happen to have higher Charisma scores. Besides, looking magnificent (due to Outsider heritage or otherwise) in a human society would help your self-image as people naturally treat you a little better, and thus would cultivate a higher Charisma. So use Aasimar stats. Or call them +2 Int, +2 Cha and they're balanced with their glowing buddies.
The_Shaman 07-13-07, 08:15 AM	Tieflings are, mind you, pretty decent beguilers. At least, as decent as a LA+1 race can be at the job.
Fleem 07-13-07, 04:42 PM	It is a bit odd that a half-fiend gets a charisma bonus, fiendish critters tend to have high charisma and charisma-based SLAs, yet a touch of fiendish blood actually drops your charisma.