Too many elven subraces? Yes or No [Archive] - Wizards Community

Too many elven subraces? Yes or No [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kearif
08-09-07, 04:53 PM I just noticed the large amount of elf subraces and I thought it would good to get the opinions of other people. Are there too many elven subraces? and please why or why not?

Elven subraces:
High Elf
Drow (Dark Elf)
Aquatic Elf (MM1)
Gurgach (Wild Elf)
Wood (or Sylvan) Elf
Desert Elf
Gray Elf
Artic Elf
Aquatic Elf (UA)
Fire Elf
Painted Elf
Ice Elf
Sun Elves
Star Elves
Averials (Winged Elves)

If I missed any please PM me about it
lord_xarallon
08-09-07, 05:00 PM Might be.

How many elven subraces are there?
Rowan_Whispercloak
08-09-07, 05:10 PM Same can really be asked about any of the non-hybrid races (basically half orc as different elf subrace sometime produce half-elves with different abilities) there are numerous subraces.

If the subraces add something to the flavor of the game then no. I the races are just an excuse to get the favored class you want or stats that you prefer.
Tempest Stormwind
08-09-07, 05:17 PM Oh, gods, yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104)
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-09-07, 05:24 PM Elf fanboy opinion: There aren't enough elf subraces.
Sane folks' opinion: Quit with the :censored:ing elves already!

There are way too many elf subraces but there's no sating the fanboys. :rolleye2:

Also, that linked plan was the most heroic thing ever.
Spikes01k
08-09-07, 05:31 PM Forgot Gray Elf
Wrong
08-09-07, 05:43 PM NO.
We really need space elves and radioactive elves.
key
08-09-07, 06:11 PM No. Wizards gave high, dark, grey, wood, and aquatic the same aging characteristics and height/weight stats (previously there were distinctions). Rather than showcasing the different elf subraces in Races of the Wild, Wizards made no mention of subrace. When, say a grey elf is mentioned in the MM or DM's Guide, he gets like a 2 sentence description and that's it. They've homogenized the elf.
Khatoblepas
08-09-07, 06:37 PM And Superfluous Elves. ;)
AMGriffin
08-09-07, 09:46 PM They get kinda redundant sometimes honestly. In personal campaigns I have it limited down to three subraces.

High
Wild
Drow

and each produces a half-elf with unique abilities
DeathByRodent
08-09-07, 10:00 PM There may be a couple more than is really necessary...

However, we can absolutely, positively be sure there are too many when the "Dwarf Elf" shows up! :eek:
Chaos90
08-09-07, 10:11 PM Don't forget about the Leshay :D . If they count.

Anyways, there are probably too many elven subraces, but I doubt they're going to stop being made.
celestialkin
08-09-07, 10:40 PM I will personally only be satisfied once they make official stats for mixed elf/elf and elf/drow races. Then I can finally say I have seen all the elf stuff I wanted to see.

Also, I am still hoping they will post stats for all the possible core races combinations (elf/halfling, gnome/halfling, dwarf/gnome, dwarf/orc, etc/etc). Any chance I will ever see this happen?
Spikes01k
08-09-07, 11:13 PM You know they really should say that all normal sub races of elves have the same abilities as the high elf, except where noted, and have an even set of stats. +2 Dex -2 con, +2 str -2 dex, -2 dex +2 str, etc.
stargate525
08-10-07, 12:13 AM Yes, for the love of god yes!

I'm sick of banning elves from ym campaign, then having someone ask if they can play X elf? or Z elf? or Beta34552 elf?
Lawlicron
08-10-07, 08:06 AM Also, I am still hoping they will post stats for all the possible core races combinations (elf/halfling, gnome/halfling, dwarf/gnome, dwarf/orc, etc/etc). Any chance I will ever see this happen?

You know not everything can breed true. I could see that being true for different humanoids in DnD. Their babies might just come out deformed and useless every time. Thats why I think there are only half-human half-something else races in DnD right now.

I hate Elven subraces. HATE them. There are far too many.
Wrong
08-10-07, 08:19 AM No.
We also need elves of the following sizes :Fine, Diminutive, Small, Large, Huge and Gargantuan.
How can we play a campaign with gargantuan characters if we do not have acces to gargantuan elves ?
Issabella
08-10-07, 10:04 AM I have made peace with the number of elven subraces, granted in the game I now run, there are only elves, and different morale societies, no more convenient color coding. Mostly because I detest the drow, because as written their society should not be, their species extinct.

What is getting too me is the number of dragon types. I can not keep up any more. It seems that there are 3x the number of dragon types vs elves.
Leonis472
08-10-07, 12:14 PM I like the varied dragon species out of the same reason I like the many elven varieties. No, I don't think there are too many elf types and subtypes. There are only as many as the DM allows, really; the remainder are eligible to be placed in the campaign world. Unless the DM throws too many in, I don't find it ridiculous at all. And even so, then it would be the DM's fault and not the designers for providing such a cornucopia. Just pick out the ones you like the best and leave the remainder alone. Chances are someone else will pick some of those you picked along with others you've not chosen. Why complain? It's inapplicable to you, or, if it is, it's the DM's fault.
baby_kamikaize_kobold
08-10-07, 12:41 PM They only make so many forms of evles because if they tried this with humans it would be racist.

there really are too many elves. but if you don't like them then just don't buy books if they have more elves in it
Lawlicron
08-10-07, 12:47 PM there really are too many elves. but if you don't like them then just don't buy books if they have more elves in it

Its not that they print more elven subraces in new books. The core books are the ones that introduce most of the elven subraces.
Leonis472
08-10-07, 12:58 PM As much counterpointing as I've offered, I do understand that if they aren't spreading their developmental talents past the elves we should say something, and that is not needless complaint but needed correspondence. Perhaps there are too many elves.
CelticMutt
08-10-07, 04:32 PM The only ones really needed are High, Dark, and Aquatic, with setting specific variants (Athasian, Cerilian) being a special exception. Beyond that, meh.
Salla
08-10-07, 04:40 PM I, personally, couldn't care less how many elven subraces there are, as I'll never play any of them. If my players choose to, though, I let 'em, because, again, I don't care and it won't make a lick of difference.
Yadot
08-10-07, 04:44 PM I just noticed the large amount of elf subraces and I thought it would good to get the opinions of other people. Are there too many elven subraces? and please why or why not?

Elven subraces:
High Elf
Drow (Dark Elf)
Aquatic Elf (MM1)
Gurgach (Wild Elf)
Wood (or Sylvan) Elf
Desert Elf
Gray Elf
Artic Elf
Aquatic Elf (UA)
Fire Elf
Painted Elf
Ice Elf
Sun Elves
Star Elves
Averials (Winged Elves)
You forgot the Forestlord Elf,
Illaeli Elf,
Jungle Elf,
Kagonesti,
Lesser Drow,
Moon Elf,
Qualinesti,
Silvanesti,
Snow Elf,
and the Wild Elf
TheShadowsRedemption
08-10-07, 04:52 PM I will personally only be satisfied once they make official stats for mixed elf/elf and elf/drow races. Then I can finally say I have seen all the elf stuff I wanted to see.

They have done the latter already in supplement materials of various kinds, and even in an officially TSR book called the Vault of the Drow, I believe. The latter I do not think comes with stats, but the race is out there.

At any rate, I made my point in another thread already similar to the point of this thread, so I will say no more.
mtbOgre
08-10-07, 04:56 PM I, personally, couldn't care less how many elven subraces there are, as I'll never play any of them. If my players choose to, though, I let 'em, because, again, I don't care and it won't make a lick of difference.

The whole reason there are so many elf sub races is so characters can have an elf optimized for whatever class they want to run. There is no other 'race' where you can pick and choose which subrace you want based on the character class. They might as well call them "The Rogue subrace", "The Wizard subrace", "The Fighter subrace"... The plug in nature of elf racial bonuses/ penalties makes them the perfect power gaming race.
baby_kamikaize_kobold
08-10-07, 05:30 PM the only race I see in the core books are as follows
high elf
drow
wood elf
wild elf
aquatic elf
gray elf
half elf

shouldn't wild and wood be pretty much the same thing? this list seemed shorter in my head but there aren't really that many.
Ebonarc
08-10-07, 05:49 PM The elven subraces, and the dwarf, halfling and gnome subraces, are almost non-existent in my campaigns. PCs can't play them, and they'll be lucky to see a grand total of 2 members of all of those subraces combined in a campaign, even if we go from level 1 to epic.

There are too many elven subraces. There are too many subraces in general.
Salla
08-10-07, 05:52 PM The whole reason there are so many elf sub races is so characters can have an elf optimized for whatever class they want to run. There is no other 'race' where you can pick and choose which subrace you want based on the character class. They might as well call them "The Rogue subrace", "The Wizard subrace", "The Fighter subrace"... The plug in nature of elf racial bonuses/ penalties makes them the perfect power gaming race.

Ooh, two points to a stat, two points off another. Game breaking.
Ebonarc
08-10-07, 05:56 PM Ooh, two points to a stat, two points off another. Game breaking.

It's not broken (though I know that was sarcasm), but it is a problem. Elves shouldn't have an affinity for everything, even if it spread over all of their subraces.
Nightshade
08-10-07, 06:02 PM Eliminate All Elven Subraces Now!!!

thank the sovereigns for eberron.
MerlintheTuna
08-10-07, 06:10 PM Oi. If I may point out two things...

This topic has been done to death. Yes, there are a lot of types of elves. No, most people don't play with all of them.
There are more kinds of dwarves than elves. If you're gonna hate on subraces, start with Stumpy McDrunkerson over in the corner.
Erato
08-10-07, 06:37 PM You forgot the Forestlord Elf,
Illaeli Elf,
Jungle Elf,
Kagonesti,
Lesser Drow,
Moon Elf,
Qualinesti,
Silvanesti,
Snow Elf,
and the Wild Elf
Yay! :rolleyes: MORE elves that are just UA elemental variants or belonging to a specific world. Like there aren't dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and orcs like that.

Seriously, check out the “Death to Elven Subraces”-thread in the D&D general section, where people have finally started to discuss all the non-elven sub-races. Why can't people just admit that they hate elves :confused: I wouldn't care why, as long as they were honest (I have my own theories, but since they're potentially offending, I will just keep them to myself). But this insistence that elves are the only race with a huge number of sub-races is just tiresome :whatsthis

In general, I think people's opinion of sub-races (any kind) depends mostly on what they consider a sub-race to be. If every sub-race is supposed to be a unique race, with it's own nation, history, and deity, then too many sub-races can make the game confusing and unrealistic, with players discovering a new intelligent race every time they walk around a corner.

On the other hand, if a sub-race is just a way to mechanically describe different variants of the same race, without making a big deal out of it, is usually ceases to be (you guessed it) a big deal. Giving snow elf stats to elves who live in the north, doesn't have to mean they see themselves differently than if you just gave them normal elf stats. It will just be a way to describe how people living under certain conditions develop the skills to match their surroundings :)
AZNsupermarket
08-10-07, 06:41 PM http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/AZNtrogdor/elves.jpg
mtbOgre
08-10-07, 07:07 PM Ooh, two points to a stat, two points off another. Game breaking.

If this is the case then why tie stat bumps and dips to races at all? Just let a player pick one stat to bump and one to dink for any race? Ooo Game Breaking.
NightHawkFalconis
08-10-07, 09:03 PM O.o Wow. See, I am one of those elf fanboys, but I've never bothered to learn about the elemental elves and such. Also, for reference, a bunch of the elven subraces have multiple names; silver elves are moon elves are gray elves (I don't know why people call them gray elves, since it's an insult to them), and such. Despite my elf-loving status, it's rare for me to allow anything other than the standard high/gold elves in my campaigns. Silver elves are just an excuse to have a 20 in Int at level 1, wood/wild elves are retarded, and avariel are too damn skittish. I do allow drow most of the time, but the player of that character is going to have to find a way to deal with the racial discrimination and general evil weal of the drow. And Drizzt clones earn themselves swift deaths at the hands of whatever monster eats them first.

My question, though, is: what do you call a dwarf/elf? A dwelf? :D
Tempest Stormwind
08-10-07, 09:10 PM The way I see it, if the subrace isn't so different mechanically it may as well be another race, don't use it.

Examples of GOOD subraces:
Svirfneblin
Drow
Whisper Gnomes (perhaps too strong, but you get the idea)

Examples of BAD subraces:
Pick up any Forgotten Realms book and look for different 'races' there.

The only good non-mechanically-distinct race I've seen would be the Valenar elves. The only mechanical difference between them and the other elves of Eberron are their racial weapon proficiencies (although I would make a case for their favored class to change to ranger). What makes them good is that they drip in their own flavor like no other elf race ever has. Rather than being "we're ancient, magical, haughty, and effemmiate, and just plain better than you, but also [adjective, such as "firey" or "wild"]", the Valenar are "We kick ass, take names, and call for the glory of those who did it better in the past." They're only haughty by Manlier-Than-Thou, which they can get away with because they actually are acting Manlier-Than-Thou.
Amon_WinterfallIV
08-10-07, 09:17 PM In my campaign, there are four kinds of elves:
-High Elves (the Normal ones)
-Drow
-Forsaken Elves (the ones who chose neither Corellon or Lolth in the Race wars)
-"Cult Elves" who are basically small bands of elves who make their own bargains in different environments. Basically, Forsaken elves who still want to have some kind of master and remain impressionable.

I would litterally have it where everything from Aqautic Elves to Winged Elves are the products of forsaken elves simply making new bargains. So, now, at least, there would be some rhyme or reason why there are 20+ breeds of elf. Oh, and, if you wanted to kill off an entire branch of elvenkind, it could be done...
Aryxbez
08-10-07, 09:33 PM Yes, there needs to be no more elf subraces. I can understand Desert based Elves in a Desert based game.

Otherwise the elves I use are
Normal Elf
Wild Elf, except they get the stuff for Wood elf as they don't exist in my games.
Aquatic Elf? I am unsure, but I might implement these in my games.

Funny, I use Human Race for things more than any other race. Like the problems that occur in the world.
queenfange
08-10-07, 09:37 PM You guys realize there's another thread that addresses this, right? I think it's in the DnD general section

Are there too many subraces? No. Are a lot of them bad? Oh yes. Do some people use them in a ridiculous manner? Postively. Can you use elven subraces responsibly? Some people can and do, others do not.

:bounce:
CelticMutt
08-11-07, 03:46 AM O.o Wow. See, I am one of those elf fanboys, but I've never bothered to learn about the elemental elves and such. Also, for reference, a bunch of the elven subraces have multiple names; silver elves are moon elves are gray elves (I don't know why people call them gray elves, since it's an insult to them), and such. Despite my elf-loving status, it's rare for me to allow anything other than the standard high/gold elves in my campaigns. Silver elves are just an excuse to have a 20 in Int at level 1, wood/wild elves are retarded, and avariel are too damn skittish. I do allow drow most of the time, but the player of that character is going to have to find a way to deal with the racial discrimination and general evil weal of the drow. And Drizzt clones earn themselves swift deaths at the hands of whatever monster eats them first.

My question, though, is: what do you call a dwarf/elf? A dwelf? :D

I may be reading you wrong, but I think you got a couple things mixed up there. While in FR an alternate name for Moon Elves is Gray Elf, statistically they are High Elves. Sun/Gold Elves are the Gray Elves from the Monster Manual.
sensestaker
08-11-07, 09:51 PM Oh, gods, yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104)

http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif

That's awesome! That's the only rant I've ever made it all the way through!
psy001098121
08-14-07, 03:18 PM Secrets, a more obscure book, also contains two elf possibilities. The Pure Elf race, and Noblings, a sect of Elves who want despise humans, despise half-breeds even more, and want to take back the world.
snakeman830
08-14-07, 03:45 PM Oh, gods, yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104)

:heehee Great. Now I want to try it. One of the guys in my group cannot be convinced to play anything besides an elf. His obsession has gotten to the point where the rest of us are all getting annoyed. (as in, he is beginning to think he's an elf just because his ears are a little pointed)

Are there too many elf races? Heck yes. To those that are saying there are more dwarves, I've only seen six types of dwarves (including the four in the MM and the ones in Stormwrack and Frostburn. Midgard Dwarves don't count, since they are outsiders.) There are that many elf types in the MM alone. I've looked in many books and kept finding more elf subraces, but not more Dwarves. I may be wrong, but this is my experience.
Myfaeia
08-14-07, 08:19 PM I don't think so! But I do believe that there are too many humans!:D
baby_kamikaize_kobold
08-14-07, 08:41 PM -Forsaken Elves (the ones who chose neither Corellon or Lolth in the Race wars)

Where are these guys at I've never heard of them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kearif 08-09-07, 04:53 PM	I just noticed the large amount of elf subraces and I thought it would good to get the opinions of other people. Are there too many elven subraces? and please why or why not? Elven subraces: High Elf Drow (Dark Elf) Aquatic Elf (MM1) Gurgach (Wild Elf) Wood (or Sylvan) Elf Desert Elf Gray Elf Artic Elf Aquatic Elf (UA) Fire Elf Painted Elf Ice Elf Sun Elves Star Elves Averials (Winged Elves) If I missed any please PM me about it
lord_xarallon 08-09-07, 05:00 PM	Might be. How many elven subraces are there?
Rowan_Whispercloak 08-09-07, 05:10 PM	Same can really be asked about any of the non-hybrid races (basically half orc as different elf subrace sometime produce half-elves with different abilities) there are numerous subraces. If the subraces add something to the flavor of the game then no. I the races are just an excuse to get the favored class you want or stats that you prefer.
Tempest Stormwind 08-09-07, 05:17 PM	Oh, gods, yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104)
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-09-07, 05:24 PM	Elf fanboy opinion: There aren't enough elf subraces. Sane folks' opinion: Quit with the :censored:ing elves already! There are way too many elf subraces but there's no sating the fanboys. :rolleye2: Also, that linked plan was the most heroic thing ever.
Spikes01k 08-09-07, 05:31 PM	Forgot Gray Elf
Wrong 08-09-07, 05:43 PM	NO. We really need space elves and radioactive elves.
key 08-09-07, 06:11 PM	No. Wizards gave high, dark, grey, wood, and aquatic the same aging characteristics and height/weight stats (previously there were distinctions). Rather than showcasing the different elf subraces in Races of the Wild, Wizards made no mention of subrace. When, say a grey elf is mentioned in the MM or DM's Guide, he gets like a 2 sentence description and that's it. They've homogenized the elf.
Khatoblepas 08-09-07, 06:37 PM	And Superfluous Elves. ;)
AMGriffin 08-09-07, 09:46 PM	They get kinda redundant sometimes honestly. In personal campaigns I have it limited down to three subraces. High Wild Drow and each produces a half-elf with unique abilities
DeathByRodent 08-09-07, 10:00 PM	There may be a couple more than is really necessary... However, we can absolutely, positively be sure there are too many when the "Dwarf Elf" shows up! :eek:
Chaos90 08-09-07, 10:11 PM	Don't forget about the Leshay :D . If they count. Anyways, there are probably too many elven subraces, but I doubt they're going to stop being made.
celestialkin 08-09-07, 10:40 PM	I will personally only be satisfied once they make official stats for mixed elf/elf and elf/drow races. Then I can finally say I have seen all the elf stuff I wanted to see. Also, I am still hoping they will post stats for all the possible core races combinations (elf/halfling, gnome/halfling, dwarf/gnome, dwarf/orc, etc/etc). Any chance I will ever see this happen?
Spikes01k 08-09-07, 11:13 PM	You know they really should say that all normal sub races of elves have the same abilities as the high elf, except where noted, and have an even set of stats. +2 Dex -2 con, +2 str -2 dex, -2 dex +2 str, etc.
stargate525 08-10-07, 12:13 AM	Yes, for the love of god yes! I'm sick of banning elves from ym campaign, then having someone ask if they can play X elf? or Z elf? or Beta34552 elf?
Lawlicron 08-10-07, 08:06 AM	Also, I am still hoping they will post stats for all the possible core races combinations (elf/halfling, gnome/halfling, dwarf/gnome, dwarf/orc, etc/etc). Any chance I will ever see this happen? You know not everything can breed true. I could see that being true for different humanoids in DnD. Their babies might just come out deformed and useless every time. Thats why I think there are only half-human half-something else races in DnD right now. I hate Elven subraces. HATE them. There are far too many.
Wrong 08-10-07, 08:19 AM	No. We also need elves of the following sizes :Fine, Diminutive, Small, Large, Huge and Gargantuan. How can we play a campaign with gargantuan characters if we do not have acces to gargantuan elves ?
Issabella 08-10-07, 10:04 AM	I have made peace with the number of elven subraces, granted in the game I now run, there are only elves, and different morale societies, no more convenient color coding. Mostly because I detest the drow, because as written their society should not be, their species extinct. What is getting too me is the number of dragon types. I can not keep up any more. It seems that there are 3x the number of dragon types vs elves.
Leonis472 08-10-07, 12:14 PM	I like the varied dragon species out of the same reason I like the many elven varieties. No, I don't think there are too many elf types and subtypes. There are only as many as the DM allows, really; the remainder are eligible to be placed in the campaign world. Unless the DM throws too many in, I don't find it ridiculous at all. And even so, then it would be the DM's fault and not the designers for providing such a cornucopia. Just pick out the ones you like the best and leave the remainder alone. Chances are someone else will pick some of those you picked along with others you've not chosen. Why complain? It's inapplicable to you, or, if it is, it's the DM's fault.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-10-07, 12:41 PM	They only make so many forms of evles because if they tried this with humans it would be racist. there really are too many elves. but if you don't like them then just don't buy books if they have more elves in it
Lawlicron 08-10-07, 12:47 PM	there really are too many elves. but if you don't like them then just don't buy books if they have more elves in it Its not that they print more elven subraces in new books. The core books are the ones that introduce most of the elven subraces.
Leonis472 08-10-07, 12:58 PM	As much counterpointing as I've offered, I do understand that if they aren't spreading their developmental talents past the elves we should say something, and that is not needless complaint but needed correspondence. Perhaps there are too many elves.
CelticMutt 08-10-07, 04:32 PM	The only ones really needed are High, Dark, and Aquatic, with setting specific variants (Athasian, Cerilian) being a special exception. Beyond that, meh.
Salla 08-10-07, 04:40 PM	I, personally, couldn't care less how many elven subraces there are, as I'll never play any of them. If my players choose to, though, I let 'em, because, again, I don't care and it won't make a lick of difference.
Yadot 08-10-07, 04:44 PM	I just noticed the large amount of elf subraces and I thought it would good to get the opinions of other people. Are there too many elven subraces? and please why or why not? Elven subraces: High Elf Drow (Dark Elf) Aquatic Elf (MM1) Gurgach (Wild Elf) Wood (or Sylvan) Elf Desert Elf Gray Elf Artic Elf Aquatic Elf (UA) Fire Elf Painted Elf Ice Elf Sun Elves Star Elves Averials (Winged Elves) You forgot the Forestlord Elf, Illaeli Elf, Jungle Elf, Kagonesti, Lesser Drow, Moon Elf, Qualinesti, Silvanesti, Snow Elf, and the Wild Elf
TheShadowsRedemption 08-10-07, 04:52 PM	I will personally only be satisfied once they make official stats for mixed elf/elf and elf/drow races. Then I can finally say I have seen all the elf stuff I wanted to see. They have done the latter already in supplement materials of various kinds, and even in an officially TSR book called the Vault of the Drow, I believe. The latter I do not think comes with stats, but the race is out there. At any rate, I made my point in another thread already similar to the point of this thread, so I will say no more.
mtbOgre 08-10-07, 04:56 PM	I, personally, couldn't care less how many elven subraces there are, as I'll never play any of them. If my players choose to, though, I let 'em, because, again, I don't care and it won't make a lick of difference. The whole reason there are so many elf sub races is so characters can have an elf optimized for whatever class they want to run. There is no other 'race' where you can pick and choose which subrace you want based on the character class. They might as well call them "The Rogue subrace", "The Wizard subrace", "The Fighter subrace"... The plug in nature of elf racial bonuses/ penalties makes them the perfect power gaming race.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-10-07, 05:30 PM	the only race I see in the core books are as follows high elf drow wood elf wild elf aquatic elf gray elf half elf shouldn't wild and wood be pretty much the same thing? this list seemed shorter in my head but there aren't really that many.
Ebonarc 08-10-07, 05:49 PM	The elven subraces, and the dwarf, halfling and gnome subraces, are almost non-existent in my campaigns. PCs can't play them, and they'll be lucky to see a grand total of 2 members of all of those subraces combined in a campaign, even if we go from level 1 to epic. There are too many elven subraces. There are too many subraces in general.
Salla 08-10-07, 05:52 PM	The whole reason there are so many elf sub races is so characters can have an elf optimized for whatever class they want to run. There is no other 'race' where you can pick and choose which subrace you want based on the character class. They might as well call them "The Rogue subrace", "The Wizard subrace", "The Fighter subrace"... The plug in nature of elf racial bonuses/ penalties makes them the perfect power gaming race. Ooh, two points to a stat, two points off another. Game breaking.
Ebonarc 08-10-07, 05:56 PM	Ooh, two points to a stat, two points off another. Game breaking. It's not broken (though I know that was sarcasm), but it is a problem. Elves shouldn't have an affinity for everything, even if it spread over all of their subraces.
Nightshade 08-10-07, 06:02 PM	Eliminate All Elven Subraces Now!!! thank the sovereigns for eberron.
MerlintheTuna 08-10-07, 06:10 PM	Oi. If I may point out two things... This topic has been done to death. Yes, there are a lot of types of elves. No, most people don't play with all of them. There are more kinds of dwarves than elves. If you're gonna hate on subraces, start with Stumpy McDrunkerson over in the corner.
Erato 08-10-07, 06:37 PM	You forgot the Forestlord Elf, Illaeli Elf, Jungle Elf, Kagonesti, Lesser Drow, Moon Elf, Qualinesti, Silvanesti, Snow Elf, and the Wild Elf Yay! :rolleyes: MORE elves that are just UA elemental variants or belonging to a specific world. Like there aren't dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and orcs like that. Seriously, check out the “Death to Elven Subraces”-thread in the D&D general section, where people have finally started to discuss all the non-elven sub-races. Why can't people just admit that they hate elves :confused: I wouldn't care why, as long as they were honest (I have my own theories, but since they're potentially offending, I will just keep them to myself). But this insistence that elves are the only race with a huge number of sub-races is just tiresome :whatsthis In general, I think people's opinion of sub-races (any kind) depends mostly on what they consider a sub-race to be. If every sub-race is supposed to be a unique race, with it's own nation, history, and deity, then too many sub-races can make the game confusing and unrealistic, with players discovering a new intelligent race every time they walk around a corner. On the other hand, if a sub-race is just a way to mechanically describe different variants of the same race, without making a big deal out of it, is usually ceases to be (you guessed it) a big deal. Giving snow elf stats to elves who live in the north, doesn't have to mean they see themselves differently than if you just gave them normal elf stats. It will just be a way to describe how people living under certain conditions develop the skills to match their surroundings :)
AZNsupermarket 08-10-07, 06:41 PM	http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/AZNtrogdor/elves.jpg
mtbOgre 08-10-07, 07:07 PM	Ooh, two points to a stat, two points off another. Game breaking. If this is the case then why tie stat bumps and dips to races at all? Just let a player pick one stat to bump and one to dink for any race? Ooo Game Breaking.
NightHawkFalconis 08-10-07, 09:03 PM	O.o Wow. See, I am one of those elf fanboys, but I've never bothered to learn about the elemental elves and such. Also, for reference, a bunch of the elven subraces have multiple names; silver elves are moon elves are gray elves (I don't know why people call them gray elves, since it's an insult to them), and such. Despite my elf-loving status, it's rare for me to allow anything other than the standard high/gold elves in my campaigns. Silver elves are just an excuse to have a 20 in Int at level 1, wood/wild elves are retarded, and avariel are too damn skittish. I do allow drow most of the time, but the player of that character is going to have to find a way to deal with the racial discrimination and general evil weal of the drow. And Drizzt clones earn themselves swift deaths at the hands of whatever monster eats them first. My question, though, is: what do you call a dwarf/elf? A dwelf? :D
Tempest Stormwind 08-10-07, 09:10 PM	The way I see it, if the subrace isn't so different mechanically it may as well be another race, don't use it. Examples of GOOD subraces: Svirfneblin Drow Whisper Gnomes (perhaps too strong, but you get the idea) Examples of BAD subraces: Pick up any Forgotten Realms book and look for different 'races' there. The only good non-mechanically-distinct race I've seen would be the Valenar elves. The only mechanical difference between them and the other elves of Eberron are their racial weapon proficiencies (although I would make a case for their favored class to change to ranger). What makes them good is that they drip in their own flavor like no other elf race ever has. Rather than being "we're ancient, magical, haughty, and effemmiate, and just plain better than you, but also [adjective, such as "firey" or "wild"]", the Valenar are "We kick ass, take names, and call for the glory of those who did it better in the past." They're only haughty by Manlier-Than-Thou, which they can get away with because they actually are acting Manlier-Than-Thou.
Amon_WinterfallIV 08-10-07, 09:17 PM	In my campaign, there are four kinds of elves: -High Elves (the Normal ones) -Drow -Forsaken Elves (the ones who chose neither Corellon or Lolth in the Race wars) -"Cult Elves" who are basically small bands of elves who make their own bargains in different environments. Basically, Forsaken elves who still want to have some kind of master and remain impressionable. I would litterally have it where everything from Aqautic Elves to Winged Elves are the products of forsaken elves simply making new bargains. So, now, at least, there would be some rhyme or reason why there are 20+ breeds of elf. Oh, and, if you wanted to kill off an entire branch of elvenkind, it could be done...
Aryxbez 08-10-07, 09:33 PM	Yes, there needs to be no more elf subraces. I can understand Desert based Elves in a Desert based game. Otherwise the elves I use are Normal Elf Wild Elf, except they get the stuff for Wood elf as they don't exist in my games. Aquatic Elf? I am unsure, but I might implement these in my games. Funny, I use Human Race for things more than any other race. Like the problems that occur in the world.
queenfange 08-10-07, 09:37 PM	You guys realize there's another thread that addresses this, right? I think it's in the DnD general section Are there too many subraces? No. Are a lot of them bad? Oh yes. Do some people use them in a ridiculous manner? Postively. Can you use elven subraces responsibly? Some people can and do, others do not. :bounce:
CelticMutt 08-11-07, 03:46 AM	O.o Wow. See, I am one of those elf fanboys, but I've never bothered to learn about the elemental elves and such. Also, for reference, a bunch of the elven subraces have multiple names; silver elves are moon elves are gray elves (I don't know why people call them gray elves, since it's an insult to them), and such. Despite my elf-loving status, it's rare for me to allow anything other than the standard high/gold elves in my campaigns. Silver elves are just an excuse to have a 20 in Int at level 1, wood/wild elves are retarded, and avariel are too damn skittish. I do allow drow most of the time, but the player of that character is going to have to find a way to deal with the racial discrimination and general evil weal of the drow. And Drizzt clones earn themselves swift deaths at the hands of whatever monster eats them first. My question, though, is: what do you call a dwarf/elf? A dwelf? :D I may be reading you wrong, but I think you got a couple things mixed up there. While in FR an alternate name for Moon Elves is Gray Elf, statistically they are High Elves. Sun/Gold Elves are the Gray Elves from the Monster Manual.
sensestaker 08-11-07, 09:51 PM	Oh, gods, yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104) http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gifhttp://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif That's awesome! That's the only rant I've ever made it all the way through!
psy001098121 08-14-07, 03:18 PM	Secrets, a more obscure book, also contains two elf possibilities. The Pure Elf race, and Noblings, a sect of Elves who want despise humans, despise half-breeds even more, and want to take back the world.
snakeman830 08-14-07, 03:45 PM	Oh, gods, yes. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=864104) :heehee Great. Now I want to try it. One of the guys in my group cannot be convinced to play anything besides an elf. His obsession has gotten to the point where the rest of us are all getting annoyed. (as in, he is beginning to think he's an elf just because his ears are a little pointed) Are there too many elf races? Heck yes. To those that are saying there are more dwarves, I've only seen six types of dwarves (including the four in the MM and the ones in Stormwrack and Frostburn. Midgard Dwarves don't count, since they are outsiders.) There are that many elf types in the MM alone. I've looked in many books and kept finding more elf subraces, but not more Dwarves. I may be wrong, but this is my experience.
Myfaeia 08-14-07, 08:19 PM	I don't think so! But I do believe that there are too many humans!:D
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-14-07, 08:41 PM	-Forsaken Elves (the ones who chose neither Corellon or Lolth in the Race wars) Where are these guys at I've never heard of them.