Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BarbeChenue 07-06-07, 10:59 AM	I was reading the July previews today, and I read the upcoming stuff awaiting us in the next Monster Manual. I wanted to see if any of the example creatures given would make good playable characters. I didn't know just how spoiled I would be!! I saw the demon and was disappointed, sadly, it's unplayable... Then I came accross the troll... Woot a new Troll!!! :D You can tell I like trolls; I can never get enough trolls. YMMV. ;) Scrolling straight through the stat block and description I was skipping, I jump on the following line: Level Adjustment: +5. Same as the classic troll found in MMI, and how many HDs on top of that? Six, the same number again, which is great. See for yourself how this new creatures fares versus our classic from MMI. I can tell you up front, it's at least "slightly better". :D Bladerager Troll CR 8 http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx20070705_previews_trollbloodrager.jpg Always CE Large giant Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Listen +6, Spot +7 Languages Giant AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (-1 size, +3 Dex, 5 natural, 8 steel plates) hp 81 (6 HD); regeneration 5; death throes Immune mind-affecting spells and abilities Resist tortured mind Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +4 Speed 20 ft. (4 squares) Melee 2 claws +12 each (2d6+9) and bite +10 (2d6+4) Space 10 ft. Reach 10 ft. Base Atk +4; Grp +17 Atk Options Power Attack, pounce, rend 4d6+13 Abilities Str 28, Dex 16, Con 28, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 9 SA death throes, pounce, rend, tortured mind Feats Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack Skills Listen +6, Spot +7 Advancement by character class; Favored Class fighter Regeneration (Ex) Fire and acid deal normal damage to a bladerager troll. If a bladerager troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 5 minutes. The creature can reattach a severed member instantly by holding it to the stump. Death Throes (Ex) A bladerager troll is designed to be a bomb by its sinister masters. When a bladerager troll dies, it explodes, propelling shrapnel in a 30-foot-radius burst. Those caught in the area take 5d6 points of piercing damage (Reflex DC 22 half). The save DC is Constitution-based. Tortured Mind (Ex) A bladerager troll's mind has been torn to shreds by the constant pain of its implanted armor. Anyone who makes direct contact with a bladerager troll's tortured mind (such as by using a detect thoughts spell) takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage. Pounce (Ex) If a bladerager troll charges a foe, it can make a full attack. Rend (Ex) A bladerager troll that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent's body and tears the flesh. This attack deals an extra 4d6+13 points of damage. Pounce (charge with full attack), better stats, Immunity to Mind Affecting spells and abilities, an innate armor grafted directly on it which has no check penalty and no max Dex bonus. On top of that, it has a cool background for a renegade monster and some very nice abilities too! The only downside is that you cannot use Raise Dead on the remaining bits of pulp left after it dies... :P
runestar 07-06-07, 11:10 AM	It does seem significantly better than the MM troll, and for the same cost... Better stats, more special abilities, and free heavy armour prof...:cool:
TheCarrionCrawler 07-06-07, 12:59 PM	Why does it only have a speed of 20ft.? That seems wrong for a large creature.
Khatoblepas 07-06-07, 05:41 PM	Just in case you want mathematical proof: Ability Scores Blade: Str +14, Dex +6, Con +14, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha -2 Vanilla: Str +12, Dex +4, Con +12, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -4 Comparison: Blade has +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Wis, +2 Cha. Regeneration Blade: Regen 5 (acid/fire), regrow lost portion 5 min. Vanilla: Regen 5 (acid/fire), regrow lost portion 3d6 min. Natural Attacks Blade: 2 claws +12 each (2d6+9) and bite +10 (2d6+4) Vanilla: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3) And as for Rend, it's just two claw damage base dice + bonuses. Special Abilities: Blade: Pounce, Death Throes, Tortured Mind, Troll abilities, heavy armor proficiency. Vanilla: +30ft Darkvision, +20ft speed. Looks like the regular troll needs a lowering of LA. Say, to LA+2/+3? The Bladerager troll is far, far superior, with the vanilla troll only having extra darkvision and speed. The bladerager even regenerates limbs faster than the average troll! Come ON! Also, I want to reiterate my hatred for the new stat block.
BarbeChenue 07-06-07, 05:48 PM	This is a guess, but it may be in part because of the plates that restrict movement. I'm pretty sure though that the plates being impossible to remove, that they don't have a max Dex bonus (it's still +3, only a mithral fullplate would allow that high) and that they don't carry a check penalty. It's not told anywhere. Ability Scores Blade: Str +18, Dex +6, Con +18, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha -2 Vanilla: Str +12, Dex +4, Con +12, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -4 Comparison: Blade has +6 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, +6 Wis, +2 Cha. I think you made a little mistake with Strength and Constitution. The Bladerager has +18 to each, not +14 (corrected in the quote).
Knute 07-06-07, 06:30 PM	Looks like typical power creep to me. New and "improved" to sell books\gain interest. Now a powergamer will say you should lower the LA of the first troll. I think you'd do better to reflect the inhanced power of the second troll with a higher la etc.... Knute
locustechpriest 07-06-07, 07:41 PM	We forgot the disadvantages, didn't we: It's insane! It cannot work with anyone unless under extreme coercion, thus it is often found alone. It is unlikely to grasp tactics beyond, "pounce and destroy" simply because of all that mental interference. It can only work into evil parties, unless you do something very drastic. Now, if you (or the applicable DM), play this realistically (that being with reference to it's own world and flavor), then it seems to be much weaker than the numbers imply.
Manyfist 07-06-07, 07:53 PM	Looks like typical power creep to me. New and "improved" to sell books\gain interest. Now a powergamer will say you should lower the LA of the first troll. I think you'd do better to reflect the inhanced power of the second troll with a higher la etc.... Knute Well the original troll is no match for this new troll. If anything to even the playing field just take off the mental penalties. I don't see why Trolls have to be dumb, and uncharismatic. Or increase HD/LA of the Bladerager. Since it has armor plates in its skin, you think sonic attacks would stop the regen as well.
runestar 07-06-07, 11:21 PM	I guess in comparison, this ratchets the LA of the MM troll down to +4 or even +3.:)
Khatoblepas 07-07-07, 12:40 PM	We forgot the disadvantages, didn't we: It's insane! It cannot work with anyone unless under extreme coercion, thus it is often found alone. It is unlikely to grasp tactics beyond, "pounce and destroy" simply because of all that mental interference. It can only work into evil parties, unless you do something very drastic. Now, if you (or the applicable DM), play this realistically (that being with reference to it's own world and flavor), then it seems to be much weaker than the numbers imply. Technically, flavor text shouldn't be a tool for balance. That's like saying: "Oh, hey, yeah - this guy's a god in human form, with DR50/epic, and a huge blaster beam... but he's balanced, as he's INSAAAANNNE!" Flavor text is fluff. It shouldn't interfere with crunch. The Bladerager troll has no mechanical (dis)abilities which mitigate it's LA. Heck, nothing is stopping you from playing it like a normal troll, but BIGGER and BADDER. Mechanical Disadvantages: - 20ft Speed on a Large size. - 60ft Darkvision compared to normal troll (90ft) - Cannot wear normal armor (comes with +8 steel plates, as Warforged.) NOTHING about it being insane and cannot grasp normal tactics. It's only "insane" special quality is a boon, not a drawback!
BarbeChenue 07-07-07, 01:33 PM	The original troll was probably balanced against a Core character of its level, but addons boost the power level of any character, and PCs with character levels benefit more from these than monsters. An 11th level Warforged Warblade (or remove Warblade levels and add Juggernaut ones if you want) with the right feats/options is probably quite comparable to this creature. Power creeps are innevitable. As you add human-made options, some are bound to be better than others (you can't always invent balanced stuff), and as you increase the total of options, you thus increase the % of great ones. Power Attack is Core, and yet most meleers still use it. LA +5 is pretty high, and giant levels are crappy.
locustechpriest 07-07-07, 02:07 PM	Technically, flavor text shouldn't be a tool for balance. There is a difference between balancing for encounters, and balancing for play. In encounters, you assume that it is being controlled an used the best way possible, but players cannot create these circumstances so readily. Bladerager CR: 8 Troll CR: 5 In encounters, it is much more powerful, because the role-playing limit really doesn't affect it's power there. Troll and Bladerager LA: +5 Level Adjustment is for measuring PC's and their cohorts/followers, and it is here that the role-playing penalties come into play. The extreme difficulty of integrating a Bladerager into a party effectively offsets its strengths. When they are not under a master's control, bladerager trolls are unable to abide the company of others without lashing out to relieve their agony, so they are encountered as solitary creatures. They require extreme coercion to be controlled. That doesn't make much of a character. Do my statements make more sense now?
Khatoblepas 07-07-07, 05:53 PM	Snip! It still doesn't make sense. If they are that difficult to use and one dimensional, they should have LA:-. Once again, it doesn't matter what fluff you give something, the golden rule is it should not be balanced with it. Let's take another example - the elf. If I change their fluff to: Elves are extremely reclusive fey - immortal and shifting in and out of existance, but bloodthirsty and lacking in any real empathy. The average elf will sooner eat a still-living human being than cooperate - just to see "the beauty of death in action". Ephemeral* and fragile, however, elves tend to resort to illusion and trickery in order to get their perverted kicks - but no matter what they do, their lack of imagination always leads them back to the same conclusion - mortals are expendable playthings. * Used in the correct context, I believe - Elves often cease to exist sporadically Does this fluff change the LA of an elf? No, since there are no mechanics involved. So why should fluff change any other kind of playable race? Noncooperative races shouldn't be playable, then. o.O
runestar 07-07-07, 10:53 PM	Level Adjustment is for measuring PC's and their cohorts/followers, and it is here that the role-playing penalties come into play. The extreme difficulty of integrating a Bladerager into a party effectively offsets its strengths. This is extremely hard to quantify. What is to stop the player from playing some sort of troll outcast, who for some reason is "sane" and lacks the bloodlust tendencies of his ilk? Then proceed to make him LG and take lvs in paladin. It is the same reason why not all orcs are necessarily played as psychotic barbarians. I personally do not feel that "roleplay" is a good enough reason to "balance" something out. If they did not want you to be playing one, it would have a LA of "-". But since it has a listed LA, this means it is a valid PC race and players should be allowed to play one, and play one according to how they like it, within the mechanical constraints. All in all, I do not see the significance of flavour here. It is like telling us that there is only 1 way to play a character.
locustechpriest 07-08-07, 03:01 AM	What is to stop the player from playing some sort of troll outcast, who for some reason is "sane" and lacks the bloodlust tendencies of his ilk? That's simple: a good DM. Look, this is not a player race. It should never be made into a player race. It has no ability to strategize, and probably cannot use any kind of equipment without breaking the flavor. If you do not disregard every scrap of information in its entry, then you have a balanced creature. If you have a bad DM who lets you play anything other than an insane CE bladerager, then your problems go much deeper. That said, I understand your reason for disagreeing. I feel the oposite really: that roleplaying is one of the most powerful of balancing tools. If I can't sway you, then I'm happy just to understand you better. :)
Manyfist 07-08-07, 03:25 AM	If you have a bad DM who lets you play anything other than an insane CE bladerager, then your problems go much deeper. Why is it a "Bad DM" to let you play a Insane CE Troll? If the DM is doing a Evil monster campaign I see why not to let a player be one. Not everyone likes to play with the common races or be good. Its a blast RPing insanity, sure most likely the character isn't going to last too long, but at least it'll be fun.
runestar 07-08-07, 07:05 AM	That said, I understand your reason for disagreeing. I feel the oposite really: that roleplaying is one of the most powerful of balancing tools. If I can't sway you, then I'm happy just to understand you better. I get where you are coming from. However, I still do not quite agree. I concur that it might be efficacious to use strict rp guidelines to balance out an otherwise powerful race (such as what they did with BOED), but I personally feel that it is a very bad way of balance. In a nutshell, what you are saying is that it is okay to have an overpowered race if there are limited ways of playing one. I do not like this approach. For me, they should just assign a fair LA/ECL based on its stats alone and leave roleplaying/flavour/fluff to the individual player. On a side note, this is actually one of the few exceptions where Wotc actually assigns a 'fair' LA. :P
Koabel 07-08-07, 08:30 AM	But since it has a listed LA, this means it is a valid PC race and players should be allowed to play one, and play one according to how they like it, within the mechanical constraints. Not correct, according to the Monster Manaul Level Adjustment is included in the entries of creatures suitable for player characters or as cohorts. So the intention of the Bloodrager Troll may not have been as a player character just because it has a LA.
locustechpriest 07-08-07, 08:30 PM	Manyfist, you seem to have misread my intent. I meant, a good DM will force you to play CE and insane. A bad DM will let you paly a Good bladerager, or a noble bladerager, or a bladerager throwing a tea party! So you are right on, and I agree with an evil campaign. That is the only place for a BR pc or cohort, unless you have extreme circumstances.
Khatoblepas 07-08-07, 09:21 PM	Manyfist, you seem to have misread my intent. I meant, a good DM will force you to play CE and insane. A bad DM will let you paly a Good bladerager, or a noble bladerager, or a bladerager throwing a tea party! So you are right on, and I agree with an evil campaign. That is the only place for a BR pc or cohort, unless you have extreme circumstances. What about a bladerager who has taken a "mind over matter" approach to his pain, internalising it and keeping his cool even though his body is ravaged with agony? The troll lumbers towards you, eyes focused and gleaming with life. Metal plates cover his body, digging into his unhealed flesh, his every movement drawing blood, but the troll doesn't seem to notice - his concentration is on something else. He grips the hilt of his giant sword, his steel coated hands clinking against the metal of the grip. Slowly, he draws it, a viscously barbed blade - and with one deft movement, he enters his battle stance, giving a sharp grunt as the plates embedded in his body tear at him. "Soon," he growls, gaze never leaving his target, "You will know the pain I feel." Is that poor roleplaying? I'm sorry, was he only supposed to be CE and unable to think things though? Oh yeah, and Wolverine. That's all I can say.
runestar 07-08-07, 10:09 PM	Manyfist, you seem to have misread my intent. I meant, a good DM will force you to play CE and insane. A bad DM will let you paly a Good bladerager, or a noble bladerager, or a bladerager throwing a tea party! That seems like a most unimaginative DM ever. I mean - orcs and gnolls are portrayed as bloodthirsty marauders. Does this mean that there is no other way of playing them. Why can't I play a gnoll or a succubus paladin if I am able to handle the fluff aspect? I still do not see why a race who is portrayed as X cannot be played as Y. Which is why I felt that LA should be solely based off quantifiable mechanical stats, and not intangible facts like "how it should be role-played".
locustechpriest 07-09-07, 09:54 PM	What about a bladerager who has taken a "mind over matter" approach to his pain, internalising it and keeping his cool even though his body is ravaged with agony? That would qualify as extenuating circumstances, by my estimation. Bladeragers are not created just for fun. They are made by "bad people" to do "bad things" to their enemies. If there is a savant of a troll who will even contemplate "mind over matter", then by chance that troll becomes a bladerager, then by chance that troll gets free, then by chance that troll joins a party and does cool adventurer stuff, then sure. Make him a pc. But that requres a huge backstory. One that you will have to consider while roleplaying. I still don't think this thing will ever be good-aligned, or care about anything other than itself. At any rate, I am merely stating an opinion. I am not trying to change your role-playing style, and if your world caters to a diverse group of exotic adventurers, then yes, the LA on this bugger needs a tweeking. :) Cheers to diversity.
Kobold_Avenger 07-10-07, 02:49 AM	I'm not sure about the Bladerager, but most monsters with LA are given a way too high value. The poor Succubus for example.. the Planetouched to a lesser extent(altough in this case they should be given more bonuses), Hobgoblins and lizardfolk also apply to this group. The Minotaur seems to be one of the few reasonable LA/RHD combos in the MM.
Manyfist 07-10-07, 09:10 AM	I'm not sure about the Bladerager, but most monsters with LA are given a way too high value. The poor Succubus for example.. the Planetouched to a lesser extent(altough in this case they should be given more bonuses), Hobgoblins and lizardfolk also apply to this group. The Minotaur seems to be one of the few reasonable LA/RHD combos in the MM. WOTC has a biased against monster races. They jack up the LA and the HD to make them weaker than that of the "common" races.
locustechpriest 07-10-07, 10:32 PM	I would label that as speculation, but I do find that Kobolds could improve. (Though they lack both LA and RHD...)