Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frugal 04-03-07, 11:29 AM	Hey, I'm working on a new campaign and I'm looking at making a few adjustments to some races and I'm looking for some feedback. I'm trying to include more racial flavour and encourage the use of racial weapons. For elves, I'm looking at dropping the free martial weapon proficiencies in longsword and rapier in exchange for weapon familiarity with elven lightblades, thinblades and courtblades. My rationale for this is that these are racial elven weapons so those who are trained with martial weapons would have come across them. I see this as a slight nerf to classes that don't gain martial proficiencies and a slight boost to those that do get them but I don't really see that as a bad thing. Now where I'm stuck is what to do with the bow proficiencies. I still want to keep the idea of some affinity for bows but I'm not really keen on the idea of every single member of a race being automatically proficient with a weapon. Any suggestions on how to give them something that still captures some good archery flavour while being balanced and not giving away free proficiencies? Thanks
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-03-07, 12:36 PM	Free Point Blank Bhot? Racial ability to reroll a ranged attack roll 1/day? (Oooh, that one helps spellcasters too!)
Frugal 04-03-07, 12:42 PM	Free Point Blank Bhot? Racial ability to reroll a ranged attack roll 1/day? (Oooh, that one helps spellcasters too!) I'm a little concerned about giving a free feat like that, especially one that sets off a lot of the archery feat trees. I was thinking maybe something like +10' to range increments to represent the good eyesight and ability to pick out targets. Offers good synergy with far shot and other sniper type things. Debating if I'd let it work with things like ranged sneak attack. Still helps casters too and I think adds some nice flavour for the affinity with ranged weapons but still means that you have to train with bows.
Pangeon 04-03-07, 12:46 PM	Make elves treat bows as simple weapons instead of giving them free proficiencies. Done.
Frugal 04-03-07, 12:55 PM	Make elves treat bows as simple weapons instead of giving them free proficiencies. Done. It was a thought but how many classes actually don't gain proficiency with all simple weapons? Cuts off the cheesy elf monk build one of the players in my group had, where he wasn't using any of the monk abilities other that WIS to AC, the extra AC bonus and the speed bump while he ran around with his bow. With that tweak it just shafts Druids, Monks and Wizards (if we're talking PHB classes). But I suppose that does capture that the classes that don't focus on fighting, or do so with very specific weapons, are those shafted. With removing the familiarity entirely and giving another type of bonus it affects any class not proficient with martial weapons, so is a lot broader.
Tyraxus 04-03-07, 01:09 PM	Do the same thing you did with the blades: make an exotic weapon called a Sylvan Greatbow or something similar, stat it like a longbow and give it something to make it seem elven or forest-y but not overpowered, and give Elves weapon familiarity with it. Presto, now elf archers have a small archery advantage, you didn't hand out a free proficiency to the entire race, you're not handing out something that is of great use to non-archer elves (thus retaining the archer feel), and all you've really done is make one new weapon. You don't want to monkey too much with the mechanical stats (damage die, crit range or multiple) because this is going to be a martial weapon for elves and you don't want it to be overpowered, but you need something to make it better than a standard longbow so that elves have a reason to take it. Here's an idea (changes from longbow in italics): Elven/Sylvan Longbow Exotic Weapon Cost: 100 gold (25 more gold than a longbow, but it's a better weapon) Damage: S-1d6, M-1d8 Crit: 20, x3 Range Increment: 150' (Elves are generally regarded as the masters of archery, so they make bows that are able to hit from much further) Weight: 2 lbs (Elves are slighter of build than other creatures, so make weapons that are a bit lighter and easier to carry) Dmg Type: Piercing You need at least two hands to use an Elven/Sylvan Longbow. You do not apply any Strength penalty or bonus, if any, to damage rolls with an Elven/Sylvan Longbow, though a Composite Elven/Sylvan Longbow may be created, using pricing and guidelines for a Composite Longbow (the Composite version of the Elven/Sylvan Longbow has a range of 175'). The craftsmanship of all Elven/Sylvan Longbows are such that a character attempting to snipe an enemy (as described in the PHB under the Hide skill description) may do so from a more advantageous position and still hit the target. As a result, you may reduce the penalty on hide checks to re-hide after sniping to -10/-15. An elf with the Weapon Familiarity feat treats the Elven/Sylvan Longbow as a martial weapon, rather than an exotic weapon.
Arcane Guyver 04-03-07, 01:12 PM	Hmm. Instead of auto-proficiency with four martial weapons, elven aristocrats, barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers, and warriors gain proficiency with the three elven blades. Simultaneously, all elven adepts, bards, clerics, experts, rogues, and sorcerers gain proficiency with bows. Only elven commoners, druids, monks, and wizards gain no benefit from this racial trait (without taking SWP as a feat). Sounds good to me (and a lot more sensible than every elf born being able to wield a specific set of weapons)!
WhylniaPendragon 04-03-07, 01:30 PM	Another option to kind of mix things up, and make the Race feel less cookie cutter is to offer a group of 3-4 subsets of options the player can choose at the time of character creation. Maybe one subset would offer proficiencies with bows, while another would offer the thinblade/lightblade/courtblade you mentioned in your OP. Perhaps a third subset would be for Arcanists, where they recieve some kind of bonus to their Ray spells, or something that denotes that they've put alot of time/effort/research into improving themselves within that certain realm of study. This way, you could have a group of four elves and each could seem quite different from his/her fellows. *Starts thinking of offering something similar in her campaign world*
Frugal 04-03-07, 01:39 PM	Hmm. Instead of auto-proficiency with four martial weapons, elven aristocrats, barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers, and warriors gain proficiency with the three elven blades. Simultaneously, all elven adepts, bards, clerics, experts, rogues, and sorcerers gain proficiency with bows. Only elven commoners, druids, monks, and wizards gain no benefit from this racial trait (without taking SWP as a feat). Sounds good to me (and a lot more sensible than every elf born being able to wield a specific set of weapons)! I see it 2 ways. On the one hand; I like the flavour that in elven society bows are so common they're simple weapons. On the other hand; mechanically it just seems like a nerf on a small subset of classes.
Frugal 04-03-07, 01:41 PM	Another option to kind of mix things up, and make the Race feel less cookie cutter is to offer a group of 3-4 subsets of options the player can choose at the time of character creation. Maybe one subset would offer proficiencies with bows, while another would offer the thinblade/lightblade/courtblade you mentioned in your OP. Perhaps a third subset would be for Arcanists, where they recieve some kind of bonus to their Ray spells, or something that denotes that they've put alot of time/effort/research into improving themselves within that certain realm of study. This way, you could have a group of four elves and each could seem quite different from his/her fellows. *Starts thinking of offering something similar in her campaign world* It's a possibility, albeit with a lot of extra work. Personally, I'm looking for ways to do this with classes already so not sure I'll do it to races too. But I have thought of doing something like giving half blooded races some options depending on which part of their lineage they grew up with.
malignor 04-03-07, 01:49 PM	I'd just say they get a racial bonus of +1 to hit with the specific weapons listed.
Frugal 04-03-07, 02:42 PM	I'd just say they get a racial bonus of +1 to hit with the specific weapons listed. It occurred to me but that's essentially weapon focus with the weapons except it also stacks with weapon focus, so pretty powerful.
malignor 04-03-07, 03:27 PM	Martial bonuses along the lines of +1 are powerful until about level 3-5, when they become awash in a sea of insignificance, ruled by full progression spellcasters. And Weapon Focus is nastier, cuz it opens up feat trees. Hence just a +1. Dwarves get +1 to hit against orcs and goblinoids. Is that overpowering?
Frugal 04-03-07, 03:33 PM	Martial bonuses along the lines of +1 are powerful until about level 3-5, when they become awash in a sea of insignificance, ruled by full progression spellcasters. And Weapon Focus is nastier, cuz it opens up feat trees. Hence just a +1. Dwarves get +1 to hit against orcs and goblinoids. Is that overpowering? True that it's not that big a bump but still a bump. And no, I don't see dwarves as unbalanced because it's a +1 to hit against 2 specific groups of humanoids rather than an across the board +1. Similarly, I don't see the Halfling's +1 on thrown weapons and slings as overpowered because both are pretty weak, have short range increments and also do very little damage (especially as a small creature).
DarkRhystar 04-03-07, 05:17 PM	I'd say to keep the Bow proficiencies what they are. They're a very nice boon for classes that need a backup attack and don't have martial weapons.