Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frugal 04-03-07, 11:38 AM	Well the 2nd thread in my "tweaking series". I decided to separate them out by race/type for convenience since I only have a few changes ready at this point. In my world orcs are nomadic herding race (similar to the mongols). As I mentioned in my other thread, I like to encourage a little racial flavour such as using racial weapons. So, here's my changes to Orcs: Orcs Lose darkvision and light sensitivity. Doesn't fit with the flavour of a nomdic group of herders Gain lowlight vision. They still see well in the dark +2 Racial bonus to intimidate. I can get them not being good at other social skills but they should be good at this, only nets a +1 with the hit to CHA. Debating making it a little higher Weapon familiarity with orc double axes. I like the idea that they can actually use their racial weapon. Half-Orcs Lose darkvision. Doesn't fit with the flavour of a nomdic group of herders and full orcs don't have it now Gain lowlight vision. They still see well in the dark +1 Racial bonus to intimidate. Similar reasoning as orcs but they're not as good at it, cancels out the hit to CHA though. Debating making it a little higher Weapon familiarity with orc double axes. I like the idea that they can actually use their racial weapon. I'm also adding a new Orc race, black Orcs (yes, ripped off from Warhammer, I might change the name), I like the idea of a bigger and tougher orc. I'm at work right now and can't remember the exact break down so I'll post them later. Any feedback on the tweaks? I know Orcs and Half-Orcs are generally seen as pretty mechanically weak races and I think this boosts them up a little without going overboard. I'd appreciate any other possible suggestions.
AMGriffin 04-03-07, 11:59 AM	I'm not liking it, in all honesty. Orcs Okay, so you gave them low-light vision, weapon proficiency, and an intimidate bonus. It fleshes them out a bit flavor-wise, though not exceedingly. From a gameplay standpoint they're also still waaay too inclined to be fighters or barbarians and nothing else. Half-orcs You've actually made half-orcs weaker then they were in the PHB. With no more darkvision and literally HALF the orc's bonuses, they're an almost worthless race now. The major problems weren't even considered for that matter, which was giving half-orcs some human traits and the ability to stand on their own feet as a race, and not be a blatantly inferior choice to orcs or humans. So...in terms of flavor neither of them really significantly changed all that much, and in terms of balance the primary issue of giving half-orcs and orcs the ability to do well outside of the meat-shield role was not addressed at all, and now half-orcs are BLATANTLY inferior to orcs and humans as PC choices.
StalkerEntreri 04-03-07, 12:06 PM	I'm not liking it, in all honesty. Orcs Okay, so you gave them low-light vision, weapon proficiency, and an intimidate bonus. It fleshes them out a bit flavor-wise, though not exceedingly. From a gameplay standpoint they're also still waaay too inclined to be fighters or barbarians and nothing else. Half-orcs You've actually made half-orcs weaker then they were in the PHB. With no more darkvision and literally HALF the orc's bonuses, they're an almost worthless race now. The major problems weren't even considered for that matter, which was giving half-orcs some human traits and the ability to stand on their own feet as a race, and not be a blatantly inferior choice to orcs or humans. So...in terms of flavor neither of them really significantly changed all that much, and in terms of balance the primary issue of giving half-orcs and orcs the ability to do well outside of the meat-shield role was not addressed at all, and now half-orcs are BLATANTLY inferior to orcs and humans as PC choices. Yeah. I agree with the Half-Orc part, I posted a while ago about how to fix the half orcs, there were some interesting ideas I will try and find the link http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817005
Frugal 04-03-07, 12:16 PM	Orcs Okay, so you gave them low-light vision, weapon proficiency, and an intimidate bonus. It fleshes them out a bit flavor-wise, though not exceedingly. From a gameplay standpoint they're also still waaay too inclined to be fighters or barbarians and nothing else. Familiarity not proficiency (works the same way as Dwarves), but yeah. I'm contemplating something like a bonus on survival checks, maybe a bonus to fort saves for enduring extremes of temperature, that'd flesh them out a little more in terms of a wilderness race and give them a few more advantages. Maybe drop the hit to WIS so they're not completely boned on the mental stats. Half-orcs You've actually made half-orcs weaker then they were in the PHB. With no more darkvision and literally HALF the orc's bonuses, they're an almost worthless race now. The major problems weren't even considered for that matter, which was giving half-orcs some human traits and the ability to stand on their own feet as a race, and not be a blatantly inferior choice to orcs or humans. I was under the impression that they were generally seen as mechanically better than full orcs? They're better off with not having the hit to every mental stat (although not if I drop the hit to WIS from regular orcs). I do see your point about them losing more in the loss of darkvision due to them not having the light sensitivity though. So...in terms of flavor neither of them really significantly changed all that much, and in terms of balance the primary issue of giving half-orcs and orcs the ability to do well outside of the meat-shield role was not addressed at all, and now half-orcs are BLATANTLY inferior to orcs and humans as PC choices. True enough, I appreciate the feedback and what you're saying about roles, I wanted to start with minor changes and build up rather than doing huge changes and really unbalancing things. What suggestions would you make then to address the breaking out of the meat-shield role? I could see maybe dropping the hit to INT from half-orcs but where CHA is seen as such a dump stat I'm not 100% convinced that balances well with the boost to STR. But that would pick up a little more human flavour in that they're quicker witted than regular orcs and pick up skills more easily.
AMGriffin 04-03-07, 01:19 PM	Familiarity not proficiency (works the same way as Dwarves), but yeah. I'm contemplating something like a bonus on survival checks, maybe a bonus to fort saves for enduring extremes of temperature, that'd flesh them out a little more in terms of a wilderness race and give them a few more advantages. Maybe drop the hit to WIS so they're not completely boned on the mental stats. I see where you're coming from... but if orcs are gonna have +4 Strength, then I HIGHLY Reccomend a penalty to dexterity. Think about it, orcs aren't that much bigger then a human (the biggest of them stand 7 feet tall) but have enough muscle to have +4 strength, that's probably gonna mean they are HUGE and thus rather clumsy or less capable of subtle agility. I was under the impression that they were generally seen as mechanically better than full orcs? They're better off with not having the hit to every mental stat (although not if I drop the hit to WIS from regular orcs). I do see your point about them losing more in the loss of darkvision due to them not having the light sensitivity though. Look at it this way. A half-orc's biggest (and only real edge in your campaign) is the lack of a wisdom penalty. HOWEVER, for every single thing a half-orc can do better then a full orc, the human will be a far better choice then a half-orc (say for a very few selection of specialized builds), and vice versa. If you just wanna play a barbarian that breaks and smashes everything in his path with no real care about anything else, why play a half-orc with +2 strength when you can play an orc with +4 strength? That's the big problem with the majority of half-races. They're ultimate inferior to both parent races from a side-effect of just being Half of the non-human parent. True enough, I appreciate the feedback and what you're saying about roles, I wanted to start with minor changes and build up rather than doing huge changes and really unbalancing things. What suggestions would you make then to address the breaking out of the meat-shield role? I could see maybe dropping the hit to INT from half-orcs but where CHA is seen as such a dump stat I'm not 100% convinced that balances well with the boost to STR. But that would pick up a little more human flavour in that they're quicker witted than regular orcs and pick up skills more easily. +2 Strength, -2 Charisma isn't a game breaker, especially when a half-orc doesn't have many bonuses to begin with. Just don't give them any bonuses that enhance their fighting ability (such as weapon familiarity or a bonus feat like toughness or anything like that). If it really bothers you though, instead of axing the intelligence penalty, give half-orcs 4 Extra skillpoints at first level and one extra skill point per level instead. For reference, I've posted my personal variants on orcs and half-orcs. Orcs • +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom (I choose the penalty to dexterity for reasons stated above, and wisdom comes from the fact that orcs are extremely short tempered, impatient, and impulsive. Wisdom also is the most important mental skill for most melee builds. If you really wanted to, you could replace the Wis bonus with a hit to intelligence, depending on how you view orcs.) • Medium Size • 30 feet base land speed • Darkvision • +3 (+2 if you plan on not having a wisdom penalty) on saves against fear. • +2 racial bonus on intimidate checks. • +2 racial bonus on saves against disease. • Weapon familiarity: Double bladed axe. • -2 penalty on bluff, gather information, diplomacy checks. (No need for this if you give them a charisma penalty.) • Languages are basically the half-orc's availble langauges in the PHB • Favored Class: Barbarian. Half-orcs • +2 Strength, -2 Charisma. (Half-orcs are strong, but they tend to be brooding and sullen from their upbrining, along with combining the restlessness of humans with the rather blunt nature of orcs.) • Medium size • 30 feet base land speed • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear. • +1 racial bonus on saves against disease. • +2 racial bonus on survival and intimidate skill checks. • Automatic languages: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Any. • Favored Class: Any.
Frugal 04-03-07, 05:21 PM	Okay, this might be going too far in the opposite direction but I think it adds a lot of flavour to them. Orcs +4 STR, -2 INT, -2 WIS Medium size 30' base speed Low-light vision +2 bonus on handle animal, intimidate, ride and survival. I see them as nomadic herders riding across wide plains, they should be good at intimidating and survival too -2 penalty on bluff, gather information and diplomacy. Not so up on the subtle social skills +2 bonus to saves against disease +3 bonus on saves against fear Weapon familiarity: orc double axes Cold endurance and heat endurance as bonus feats. They travel through a wide range of climates and are acclimated to wide ranges of temperature Half-Orcs +2 STR, -2 WIS Medium size 30' base speed Low-light vision +2 bonus on handle animal, intimidate, ride and survival. I see them as nomadic herders riding across wide plains, they should be good at intimidating and survival too -2 penalty on bluff, gather information and diplomacy. Not so up on the subtle social skills +1 bonus to saves against disease +1 bonus on saves against fear Weapon familiarity: orc double axes Cold endurance and heat endurance as bonus feats. They travel through a wide range of climates and are acclimated to wide ranges of temperature That's just a quick version. I'm liking the flavour of adding some extra "nomadic" skill bonuses and the fact they can handle a wide range of climates. I'm a little worried this might be going a bit too far. I also think half-orcs might still be a worse off than regular Orcs but I wanted to get some input on the power balance for both races first before I start adding more to a race that might already be overpowered.
Frugal 04-03-07, 05:51 PM	Bleh, shouldn't copy and paste when I'm tired. Looking at what I posted it's basically AMGriffin's orc traits with a few additions. If we assume his are balanced (seem pretty good) then I'm definitely giving too much. I mean darkvision with no light sensitivity is nice but it's not so much better than lowlight to warrant bonuses to more skills and 2 bonus feats. Maybe tone down the save vs. disease and fear to +1 and +2 respectively.
malignor 04-03-07, 06:18 PM	Here's how I see Orcs. I'd actually give them a hit to CHA and INT. - Low Int -2 to reflect their tendency to neglect skills. Orcs are not strategists, problem solvers or skilled masters. - Maintain Wis +0. Orcs are as observant as others, and have "street smarts" (which is good judgement, aka Wisdom). Also, this allows for powerful Orcish Shamen and Druids and Rangers, and some Clerics too. - Drop Cha -2. Orcish Sorcerers, Bards seem like a contradiction in flavor concepts. Also, Orcs just tend to be less influential. Charisma is about presence and aura, beyond just being big & strong. Like undead and outsiders have big Charisma... they have a presence. When a Wight enters a room, everyone knows it - a Wight is a terrible and malevolent being. When an Orc enters a room, it's nothing to invoke awe, fear or admiration; not so "demanding of attention". Also, this would mean more Orcish Druids than Clerics, as Clerics get better Turning from high Charisma. Good, that's how I like it. - +4 Strength, as usual. They're tough, they hit hard, and generation after generation of warriors and savagery has turn them into physical powerhouses. - I'd give em +1 to natural AC. A friggin poodle gets natural armor. Orcs are a hardy lot and deserve at least as tough a hide as a small wild dog. - They have little tusks, as they're kinda like boar-people. I'd give them 1d4 gore as a natural attack. I can imagine them employing their small tusks in a wrestling match for some rite of passage, and showing off their scars from warriors they've bested in combat. - That being said, maybe give them +2 animal affinity for swine. Handle Animal and Ride checks are +2 involving boars, dire boars and the like. It would result in dire-boar orc cavalry, which is just cool and fits the bill. - Low Light Vision for surface dwellers, Darkvision and light sensitivity for subterraneans. Maybe split them up as "Cragg Orcs" for those who live on the steppes and mountains, and "Pit Orcs" who live in darkness beneath the earth. Personally, I love making subterranean racial offshoots albino (since there's no light, there's no pigmentation), which would also throw off preconceptions of what a race called "Pit Orcs" would look like - pale flesh and red eyes. - Racial bonuses to Intimidate and Jump for the Cragg Orcs. Maybe +2. Cragg orcs have alot of rough terrain to cover, and jumping helps (and I can't see them as great climbers), and the fine art of scaring away rival tribes would be something any Cragg Orc would learn. Pit Orcs, who live in isolation, would instead get bonuses to listen and knowledge dungeoneering - to help them survive in their environment against underground nightmares like Oozes and Abberations, and to help them navigate caves. - Weapon familiarity would be maintained.
Frugal 04-03-07, 06:26 PM	- Low Int -2 to reflect their tendency to neglect skills. Orcs are not strategists, problem solvers or skilled masters. Similar to what I was thinking and then it allows me to capture some "human flavour" with half-orcs by ditching that hit. - Maintain Wis +0. Orcs are as observant as others, and have "street smarts" (which is good judgement, aka Wisdom). Also, this allows for powerful Orcish Shamen and Druids and Rangers, and some Clerics too. - Drop Cha -2. Orcish Sorcerers, Bards seem like a contradiction in flavor concepts. Also, Orcs just tend to be less influential. Charisma is about presence and aura, beyond just being big & strong. Like undead and outsiders have big Charisma... they have a presence. When a Wight enters a room, everyone knows it - a Wight is a terrible and malevolent being. When an Orc enters a room, it's nothing to invoke awe, fear or admiration; not so "demanding of attention". Also, this would mean more Orcish Druids than Clerics, as Clerics get better Turning from high Charisma. Good, that's how I like it. Tend to agree here, I was deliberating if I wanted the hit to WIS or the hit to CHA based on what types of casters I wanted. I'm seeing orcs as a shamanistic race, wasn't sure about a good shaman class, druids and rangers fit well though for sure. And I this was mostly worked out on my walk home from work and I just wanted to put something up as I was more concerned about the thoughts on the racial traits, knowing I could tweak the stat mods to trade WIS for CHA.
AMGriffin 04-03-07, 07:25 PM	The orc isn't Unbalanced necessarily, but on the powerful side of LA+0. The half-orc is still a watered down orc however.
Frugal 04-03-07, 09:46 PM	The orc isn't Unbalanced necessarily, but on the powerful side of LA+0. The half-orc is still a watered down orc however. Are you saying it's fine, if a bit on the powerful side, with the higher bonuses or with the suggested lowered versions I mentioned? I do agree that the half-orc is still watered down but I wanted to get an opinion on the Orc first since obviously I'm building the half-orc off the orc. I'm leaning toward maybe dropping the -2 penalty on the social skills to just a -1 so it reflects that they're a little more socially adept than full-blooded Orcs and maybe something like 2 extra skill points at 1st level, that brings in some more of the human flavour then. With no hit to INT, a lot of racial bonuses to some skills, less of a hit on some social skills and a few bonus skill points that sets up half-orcs as being the more skillful, slightly less brutish version of their full-blooded cousins.
Frugal 04-03-07, 10:23 PM	Okay, finally getting the black orcs together now that I'm home and have had time to integrate the orc changes in. Note the LA for this race, this is meant to be a more powerful race of orc. It's loosely based on the Orog from Races of Faerun but with some other tweaks, I felt they were always a weak LA +2 race, I think this is reasonably balanced: Black Orcs +6 STR, -2 DEX, -2 WIS, +2 CHA. They're bigger and stronger than orcs, and it does put a DEX hit on them, they're ferocious but natural leaders so they get the CHA bonus. Medium, base speed 30' Powerful build. [I]They're topping out the medium size, I like the idea of a borderline large sized orc Lowlight vision +2 natural armour +2 racial bonus on handle animal, intimidate, ride and survival +3 racial bonus on saves against disease. Makes them a little tougher +4 bonus on saves against fear. Even braver than typical orcs, maybe even go for immune to fear effects if the thinking is they could stand a little more bump to make a solid LA +2 Bonus feats: Cold Endurance, Improved Cold Endurance, Heat Endurance, Improved Heat Endurance. Orogs already had the cold and fire resistances that the improved feats grant so I figured this was a good way to justify it with the feats I was already giving normal Orcs Resistances: cold 5, fire 5. This is from the improved cold and heat endurances, not extra. Weapon familiarity: Orc double axes Orc blood Favoured Class: Fighter Level Adjustment: +2 I think this is reasonable, definitely better than a goliath I'd argue CR: Black orcs with NPC levels have a CR equal to their character level. Black orcs with PC class levels have a CR equal to their character level +1. Basing this off Drow CR
kave99 04-03-07, 10:44 PM	just my personal favorite 1/2 orc fix +1 str +1 con -1 int -1 cha this arrangement gives a incentive toward the Martial classes but not as big a hit to the arcane classes. I may be a bit of a gray bearded but i still see 1/2 orc PC's as in the 10% that can pass for human. the only other thing i would change would be favored class to any, as i see it thy would be adaptable survivors not berserker's and put them in line with 1/2 elves who should probable get +1 dex and -1 con
AMGriffin 04-03-07, 10:48 PM	Are you saying it's fine, if a bit on the powerful side, with the higher bonuses or with the suggested lowered versions I mentioned? I do agree that the half-orc is still watered down but I wanted to get an opinion on the Orc first since obviously I'm building the half-orc off the orc. I'm leaning toward maybe dropping the -2 penalty on the social skills to just a -1 so it reflects that they're a little more socially adept than full-blooded Orcs and maybe something like 2 extra skill points at 1st level, that brings in some more of the human flavour then. With no hit to INT, a lot of racial bonuses to some skills, less of a hit on some social skills and a few bonus skill points that sets up half-orcs as being the more skillful, slightly less brutish version of their full-blooded cousins. Orcs would be ultimately balanced if you just removed their bonus feats. For the half-orc here's something I cooked up myself. Half-orc • +2 Strength, -2 Wisdom. Half-orcs are strong, but impatient and restless. • Medum Size humanoid with the human and orc subtypes • 30 feet base land speed. • Low-light vision. • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear. • +1 racial bonus on saves against disease. • -1 penalty on diplomacy, bluff, and gather information checks. • +2 racial bonus on survival and intimidate checks. • 1 extra skillpoint per level. Now I don't know if you do the whole multiclassing thing, but if you do...I'd consider allowing half-orcs to choose between familiarity with the double bladed axe (if they are orc-raised) or "any" as a favored class (if they are human-raised) The Black Orc I'm kinda iffy on, it seems stronger then the half-ogre, which was a solid LA+2.
AMGriffin 04-03-07, 10:53 PM	just my personal favorite 1/2 orc fix +1 str +1 con -1 int -1 cha this arrangement gives a incentive toward the Martial classes but not as big a hit to the arcane classes. I may be a bit of a gray bearded but i still see 1/2 orc PC's as in the 10% that can pass for human. the only other thing i would change would be favored class to any, as i see it thy would be adaptable survivors not berserker's and put them in line with 1/2 elves who should probable get +1 dex and -1 con You have suceeded in making the half-orc suck at everything, including being a barbarian.
kave99 04-03-07, 11:03 PM	go roll a few of my 1/2 orc's . try a few different classes or use the elite array. yes you will not get a 20 str at 1st level but it might surprise you. i do like constructive criticism
Frugal 04-04-07, 08:39 AM	just my personal favorite 1/2 orc fix +1 str +1 con -1 int -1 cha this arrangement gives a incentive toward the Martial classes but not as big a hit to the arcane classes. I may be a bit of a gray bearded but i still see 1/2 orc PC's as in the 10% that can pass for human. the only other thing i would change would be favored class to any, as i see it thy would be adaptable survivors not berserker's and put them in line with 1/2 elves who should probable get +1 dex and -1 con Breaks the cardinal rule of race building where stat bonuses should be even numbered.
Frugal 04-04-07, 08:49 AM	Orcs would be ultimately balanced if you just removed their bonus feats. For the half-orc here's something I cooked up myself. Yeah, I thought the bonus feats might be too much. I'm thinking I might drop the feats but just give them a +2 to resist effects from heat or cold instead. Similar flavour in terms of resisting elements but not quite as good as the feats (which offers cold or heat protection). Now I don't know if you do the whole multiclassing thing, but if you do...I'd consider allowing half-orcs to choose between familiarity with the double bladed axe (if they are orc-raised) or "any" as a favored class (if they are human-raised) Maybe it's because my group doesn't multiclass all that much but I don't find favoured class as all that useful. But yes, I could see going for favoured class: any. The Black Orc I'm kinda iffy on, it seems stronger then the half-ogre, which was a solid LA+2. I'm definitely open to suggestions. I think the big thing that makes them look powerful is the 4 bonus feats but consider that this is based off the Orog to an extent and they had the resistances, I just changed it so that they had them by virtue of the feats. Given that all the improved versions do is give you the resistances it's not really a mechanical change. So I look at it as being that I took the Orog, which I thought seemed kinda weak as a race, and changed the skill bonuses, changed their vision to lowlight and added powerful build, well a few changes to saves too (which I could tone down). If memory serves, the half-ogre is large right? So consider they get reach.
Spikes01k 04-04-07, 09:39 AM	You could try my hill orcs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=811764)
kave99 04-04-07, 10:26 AM	Breaks the cardinal rule of race building where stat bonuses should be even numbered. yes it dose , thats the point. it gives the 1/2 humans a slight edge physically but not as big a hit mentally as a example say you roll 17,14,9,15,16,12 and want to be a wizard or a barbarian 1/2 orc wizard barbarian str 9=10 str 17=18 dex 16=16 dex 16=16 con 15=16 con 15=16 int 17=16 int 14=13 wis 14=14 wis 12=12 cha 12=11 cha 9=8 both of these characters are playable and would make fun and good PC's there is only one cardinal rule, if you do not like a rule then change it :D
Frugal 04-04-07, 10:35 AM	both of these characters are playable and would make fun and good PC's there is only one cardinal rule, if you do not like a rule then change it :D Yes, but the thing with odd numbered stat mods is that it makes it a lot stranger to balance, especially depending on how you generate stats. It makes an odd numbered stat quite powerful and an even numbered stat almost worthless. With even numbered stat mods you know that you're guaranteed to net an increase or decrease in the modifier.
kave99 04-04-07, 10:55 AM	that hole point it gives a incentive to playing a 1/2 orc this is amplified the more odd numbered stat you have, it all so reinforces the stereotype with out destroying the possibility of playing against type
AMGriffin 04-04-07, 01:38 PM	yes it dose , thats the point. it gives the 1/2 humans a slight edge physically but not as big a hit mentally as a example say you roll 17,14,9,15,16,12 and want to be a wizard or a barbarian 1/2 orc wizard barbarian str 9=10 str 17=18 dex 16=16 dex 16=16 con 15=16 con 15=16 int 17=16 int 14=13 wis 14=14 wis 12=12 cha 12=11 cha 9=8 both of these characters are playable and would make fun and good PC's there is only one cardinal rule, if you do not like a rule then change it :D Yes, well that's all lovely but the half-orc still is incredibly bland AND even more inferior to humans and orcs now. They still are (and even moreso now due to the smaller bonuses/penalties) going to ultimately be inferior choices for ANY character build to orcs most of the time and humans ALL of the time.
Frugal 04-04-07, 02:48 PM	Yes, well that's all lovely but the half-orc still is incredibly bland AND even more inferior to humans and orcs now. They still are (and even moreso now due to the smaller bonuses/penalties) going to ultimately be inferior choices for ANY character build to orcs most of the time and humans ALL of the time. Agreed, there's so little changing that there's very little flavour (like being strong but not all that coordinated, or being dexterous but frail) and more just catering to the min/max crowd who will assign their odd numbered stats to get maximum benefit.
Frugal 04-04-07, 09:21 PM	By my math, the Orcs I published work out to 17 feature points using Yabathewhat's system. But I'm new to it so I might have been off. That puts them just below the max for a 0 LA race. The half orcs as listed work out to 10.5 which is on the low end of a balanced race. So I'm not too out of line but a little tweaking of the orcs to tone them down and a little adding to the half-orcs to add in some human flavour should do it.
Tolby 04-04-07, 10:37 PM	I would also add skill bonuses to Handle Animal (herders) and survival (nomadic) my 2 cents
kave99 04-05-07, 02:18 AM	Agreed, there's so little changing that there's very little flavour (like being strong but not all that coordinated, or being dexterous but frail) OK I would hope that any role player could play a 1/2 orc or for that mater any race based on the flavor texts alone. stat bonus's are there to reinforce expected character roles, in the case of 1/2 orc's +2 str and -2 int & cha, it great for a warrior class but completely sucks for a arcana caster of any type. now I started playing d&d with the wight box and 1/2 orcs with first printing of Ad&d and back then +2 str,+2 con & -2 cha seemed like a good deal but you could only be a 4th level cleric 10th level fighter 8th level thief and a 15th level assassin, with multi class fighter/assassin being the most common class. over the years things have changed and many of the rules regarding stats, race and classes have changed. but the mechanical prejudice toward 1/2 orc's has remained in fact it's gotten worse (from PC's that can pass for human to linage thats plain for all to see, -2 cha that was a total dump stat in ad&d and is now a much more important stat) so my purpose in changing the stats +1 str & con and -1 int & cha was to help redress the the imbalance that i see in a historical context. more just catering to the min/max crowd who will assign their odd numbered stats to get maximum benefit. min/maxing has always been a part of the game, few players will put a 10 into str if they wish to play a fighter ,so unless you pick race and class first and then roll stats in order you are min/maxing. on top of that i had intended that it would have that effect, the benefit was planed not inadvertent.
Ogrebear 04-05-07, 08:30 AM	YabaTheWhat worked out a system for giving each race point to see how they match up. In his current system the breakdown is: Human = 10.5; Dwarves = 14; Elves = 14; Gnomes = 14; Half-Elves = 9; Halflings = 13; Kobolds = 11; Goblin = 11; Orcs = 4 and Half-Orcs = 1 See here thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=1&pp=30) for the numbers. Though my number might be out of date now- its a big thread. So I asked him: Originally Posted by Ogrebear I agree what what you said about Orcs and Half Orcs and i apologise if you have posted this elsewhere (probably on one the Orc threads i have posted on too!) but how would you 'fix' the Orc and Half orc to bring them intoline with the 10FP-14FP the other basic races get? And he said on 08-09-06, 07:29 PM: To start off, give both orcs and half-orcs +2 constitution. That's another 4 FP each, bringing the half-orc to 5 FP and the full orc to 8 FP. (Light sensitivity is now worth -2 FP rather than the originally posted -1 FP.) Next, give them both +2 to intimidate for another 1 FP. Boost the full orc's darkvision to 120 ft for another 1 FP, and they're settled at 10 FP. The half orc, at this point, is at 6 FP. All his features reflect the orc parent, so we could pull something from his human side, but it would be better to make them unique. Give half-orcs a +2 morale bonus to saves vs fear, poison, and disease, for 1 FP each. As outcasts, it wouldn't hurt them to have a +2 to survival for another 1 FP. Now they're up to 10 FP, balanced. Not happy with one of the suggestions above? The feat Endurance is worth 3 FP as a bonus feat. (If I recall correctly, not enough feats depend on Endurance to make it the start of a feat chain.) This would make Orcs: — +4 Strength, +2 Con, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma. —An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. - +2 racial bonus to intimidate —Darkvision out to 120 feet. —Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. —Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Barbarian. Half Orcs would come out: - +2 Strength, +2 Con, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3. - Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. - Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. - +2 morale bonus to saves vs fear, poison, and disease - +2 to survival check - Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. - Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. - Favored Class: Barbarian. These changes would make the 2 races 10 points each under Yabba's system.
Frugal 04-05-07, 08:47 AM	OK I would hope that any role player could play a 1/2 orc or for that mater any race based on the flavor texts alone. stat bonus's are there to reinforce expected character roles, in the case of 1/2 orc's +2 str and -2 int & cha, it great for a warrior class but completely sucks for a arcana caster of any type. In that case why doesn't every race just say, "you're an Elf," or "you're a Dwarf," or so on? Why give it any mechanical difference? The answer is that you want to have the mechanics of a race reinforce the flavour of a race. I agree that half-orcs are horribly type cast because of their racial traits but that's essentially what this thread is about; how to tweak orcs (and half-orcs) for my campaign world so that they have more flavour and are actually balanced against the other races. That's why I'm giving them some bonuses to skills that fit with the flavour for my world. They're herders so they get handle animal, they're nomadic so they get ride (and boar riding orcs and half-orcs are just hella cool) and survival. They don't get a hit to CHA because I disagree with CHA being appearance based, it's force of personality. This is all the more borne out by the increased significance of the stat; it's casting magic by virtue of your force of personality, not how hot you are (yes this runs counter to traditional fantasy art for female casters). So neither gets a hit to CHA. They do have a more brutal society though so they get bonuses to intimidate and lack some of the sophistication in more subtle social skills. They're rash and quick to anger so they get a hit to WIS. But they're brave in combat so they get a bonus to saves against fear. They're tougher and tend to eat raw, undercooked or slightly rancid food so they're naturally more resistant to diseases. Their nomadic society takes them through a wide range of temperature extremes, from frozen steppes to blistering deserts, and they spend most of their lives outdoors or with little shelter beyond a tent so they're acclimated to a wide range of temperatures. Personally, I think this adds a lot of flavour to the race, the bonuses allow you to create some more skills-based orcs or half-orcs (especially with them not getting hit on INT, and I'm contemplating some other changes to bring in some "human flavour"). The modifiers make any kind of outdoorsy class pretty viable. Casters still get a bit of a shaft and I am debating if I want to swap the WIS penalty for CHA (despite all I've said about force of personality) to better accommodate certain casters but I need to figure out which casters I want to be the primary casters in the race and then adjust to suit that.
AMGriffin 04-05-07, 11:36 AM	This would make Orcs: — +4 Strength, +2 Con, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma. —An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. - +2 racial bonus to intimidate —Darkvision out to 120 feet. —Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. —Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Barbarian. Half Orcs would come out: - +2 Strength, +2 Con, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3. - Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. - Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. - +2 morale bonus to saves vs fear, poison, and disease - +2 to survival check - Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. - Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. - Favored Class: Barbarian. These changes would make the 2 races 10 points each under Yabba's system. The Orc is overpowered and still forced into the melee combatant role (along with being bland flavor wise). The Half-orc is still suffering from "Why play this when you can have this" though granted, to a lesser extent. I'm not real fond of Yaba's system in all honesty. I'd suggest you steer clear of it.
Frugal 04-05-07, 12:31 PM	The Orc is overpowered and still forced into the melee combatant role (along with being bland flavor wise). The Half-orc is still suffering from "Why play this when you can have this" though granted, to a lesser extent. I'm not real fond of Yaba's system in all honesty. I'd suggest you steer clear of it. I agree about the suggested changes, nothing really grabbed me either. I haven't used it to any great degree but I looked into it for doing up these classes. It seems to be useful for what it is, a method of evaluating the relative balance of classes. What it doesn't do is address any issues like flavour or how type-cast a particular race is. But if you do address those issues with your design of the race it's decent "acid test" to check it it's balanced or not. I wouldn't stick to it religiously though. Honestly, I have a hard time really talking about the quality of the system or not given the absence of other systems (that I'm aware of); it's the only tool we have for mathematically comparing the balance of the races and it does show that most of the PHB races are reasonably well balanced against each other.
Frugal 04-06-07, 01:24 PM	Okay, newly revised versions: Orc +4 STR, -2 INT, -2 WIS May still swap WIS hit for CHA hit, would drop down the bonus to saves against fear and the hits to social skills. Meidum 30' base speed Lowlight vision +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal, Intimidate, Ride and Survival checks. -2 penalty on bluff, gather information and diplomacy checks +3 racial bonus on saves against fear +2 racial bonus against saves against disease +2 racial bonus on saves to endure elements Weapon familiarity: orc double axe Half-Orcs +2 STR, -2 WIS May still swap WIS hit for CHA hit, would drop down the bonus to saves against fear and the hits to social skills. Meidum 30' base speed Lowlight vision +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal, Intimidate, Ride and Survival checks. -1 penalty on bluff, gather information and diplomacy checks +2 racial bonus on saves against fear +1 racial bonus against saves against disease +2 racial bonus on saves to endure elements 2 extra skill points at 1st level may increase to 4 depending on the thoughts on balance. 1 extra skill point per level Weapon familiarity: orc double axe Favoured class: any I think this makes both races pretty balanced 0 LA races. The orcs gain a little more toughness in some regards and are a little more type-cast to melee rolls with the hit to INT but the skill bonuses do make up for it a bit and it fits their flavour. The half-orcs can still make pretty good meleeists if you want to go that route but the skill bonuses and extra skill points as well as favoured class: any really open up a lot of options for skilled characters as well. About the only thing they're not really suited for is a WIS based caster.
AMGriffin 04-06-07, 01:37 PM	Okay those both look good enough. I have two minor suggestions. Half-orc: Get rid of the handle animal and ride checks, and it's perfect. Orc: Looks good. Just throwing it out, but how do you feel about an orc with +2 Strength, +2 Constitution instead of +4 Strength?
Frugal 04-07-07, 10:24 AM	Okay those both look good enough. I have two minor suggestions. Half-orc: Get rid of the handle animal and ride checks, and it's perfect. Orc: Looks good. Just throwing it out, but how do you feel about an orc with +2 Strength, +2 Constitution instead of +4 Strength? Thanks for the feedback, I'm considering the tweak to the half-orcs but I think I've gotten it to a point where I can fine tune them as needed for my world. As for the Orcs, I think it could be done that way but you'll notice that a few of their racial bonuses I'm giving them are already CON/Fortitude based, like the saves against disease and enduring elements. Part of my reasoning for this was following the rule of monster generation where if you don't want to give them a full stat boost you can just give them some of the bonuses they'd receive from that stat increase instead. If I were to give them the bonus to CON I'd probably tone down some of those bonuses, and then I think they might be a little underpowered mechanically and need something else to boost them up. However, it does remove them a little bit from the melee stereotype. The boost to STR is still nice but I'd argue that a CON boost is more useful to the lower HD classes (although it's always nice to have more HP).