Undead fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Undead fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
seska
08-12-07, 11:26 PM Just wondering if anyone can give me any pointers on how to create an undead fighter?! The nearest I've come to is a necropolitan, but there are a couple of adjustments that i'd need to make. The problem mainly being this is someone who's been resurrected (200yrs into the future) not welcomed themselves into the undead world. She would also have to be lawful neutral, or even good (yes, I realise I may not get away with that one!). Any ideas greatly appreciated!
Duelpersonality
08-12-07, 11:57 PM Well, if all you're looking for is that the character be undead, necropolitan is not a bad way to go. You can always work on the specific fluff with your DM. Also, note that necropolitan does not change the alignment of the base creature, so it would seem that any alignment is possible with the template (but that is something you should run by your DM first).
Tsh77769
08-13-07, 02:08 AM Isn't that flavor of ice cream?:)
1 ton ghost
08-13-07, 02:35 AM undead favors lower HD critters since they have no Con. the Ftr concept is dynamic and has a mysterious feel/good RP potential, but is risky

no Con, this is great since you'll probably never need to make a FORT save again, but if you do, watch out...all you get is base FORT w/ no Con to back it, ie)Disintegrate can ruin your day quickly
other problem is the 10HP gap. at 0 HP, you are destroyed, not dying, so you lose -1 through -10HP buffer so always go for the high AC

i love necropolitan rogues and mages. even w/ the LA, going d12 vs. d6 or d4makes up for it regardless of Con or not on avg. HP you'll wind up w/ more HP even w/ the 10HP gap, no Con, etc. a shrewd investment.

rogues especially-don't need Poison Use if you can't be poisoned, darkvision rocks, Disguise (class skill) will help w/ that "skin condition"

-never sleeping/eating is basically Ring of Sustanence for free and terribly effective for guard detail.
-never fatigued/exhausted so you can always force march, carry the heaviest weight, and of course, no frostbite or heat stroke, and of course, there's no Rage/Frenzy fallout
-no subdual/nonlethal dmg...consider boxing someone, you'll eventually win.
-no ability dmg. you can effectively hunt other undead w/ impunity

biggest point to consider is the image/social issues and occasional Turn/Rebuke. don't let them ever know. Disguise
Spot isn't a class skill for a cleric so unless he's Detecting Undead, you have the advantage straight up. just wait till you sucker him into an Inflict spell and he goes, "omg, i just healed him for free." then all bets are off...
seska
08-13-07, 07:44 AM Yep, i did notice that with necropolitan (the undead kind. Not the neopolitan with a hint of ghoul. Lol! :P ), but I think I may only get away with lawful neutral. In life she was a 12 level fighter/Kensai (which brings problems of it's own!), and she was lawful good, but I want there to be a sense of something not being quite right.
The DM has already said that to bring her back I have to sacrifice coming back to 7th level (party average) and I need to be able to convince him this is going to work without me being over or under powerful. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to bring back my favourite character, and was only able to be broached because the DM has brought back his favourite (and most memorable) Lich who was the arch-enemy for countless adventures, so I really dont want to screw it up.
The things I need to work out are how to heal (would 'inflict' still work if she wasn't evil?), alignment, etc. She's not a zombie or any of the other undead creatures, but she will have their advantages/disadvantages. Think of 'The Crow' or when Buffy was brought back.
Didn't think about 'disguise'. Definately a biggy there! How do i transpose my con from life, to death/undead? Do I just get rid of it? Thanks guys.
Duelpersonality
08-13-07, 10:45 AM You just get rid of Con (which would seem to be more of a problem than usual, given that this character was a fighter and probably had at least a decent Con). Inflict spells would still heal an undead character regardless of alignment, so if you're trying to hide your nature from the rest of the party you should make sure that the party healer doesn't come close to you with cure spells. Thankfully necropolitans have the unnatural resilliance (I believe that's what it's called) ability, allowing them to heal over time unlike other undead. This sounds like it's going to be a very interesting dynamic for a character. Good luck!
seska
08-14-07, 12:24 PM You just get rid of Con (which would seem to be more of a problem than usual, given that this character was a fighter and probably had at least a decent Con). Inflict spells would still heal an undead character regardless of alignment, so if you're trying to hide your nature from the rest of the party you should make sure that the party healer doesn't come close to you with cure spells. Thankfully necropolitans have the unnatural resilliance (I believe that's what it's called) ability, allowing them to heal over time unlike other undead. This sounds like it's going to be a very interesting dynamic for a character. Good luck!

Thanks! Found some good stuff in other books but will probably try to create something myself and hope the DM buys it! lol! Will post once I've created it, either here or in classes so you guys could give me a briefing before showing it to the DM!
celestialkin
08-14-07, 12:49 PM The things I need to work out are how to heal (would 'inflict' still work if she wasn't evil?), alignment, etc. She's not a zombie or any of the other undead creatures, but she will have their advantages/disadvantages. Think of 'The Crow' or when Buffy was brought back.
Didn't think about 'disguise'. Definately a biggy there! How do i transpose my con from life, to death/undead? Do I just get rid of it? Thanks guys.

Do you have a copy of Exalted Deeds at your disposal? If so look into the deathless. Basically, they are people who decided to stay behind for noble reasons (guard their king's tomb, watch over the living, etc.). They are undead, but are instead made out of positive energy. Therefore, they can be healed by positive energy, and they do not show up as evil.

I recently played an undead psion using the necropolitan template, and my DM ruled I was a deathless instead of an undead. It did not unbalance things, and since I was made of good energy the cleric and paladin could decide not to smash me without their deities getting upset. Plus they were also able to heal me.

I forgot where (Faerun maybe?), but there is even a powerful elven community somewhere, which keeps it's greatest members around after they die as good (deathless) undead. And I believe one of the Faerun books has rules for a good elven lich, which stays around to watch over it's family three, and I believe the same book also has rules for plain good aligned liches. Basically, it is not unheard of for there to be good aligned undead/deathless in the worlds.
speed6620
08-14-07, 02:29 PM Well you have to calculate ECL and what you want your character to be man, its really your decision and your character. I mean there are ways to make a powerful undead variety into a level progression and make it very balanced with normal PCs, template classes for example can be found on the wizards site under savage progressions and show you how to make a template or monster class work into a normal campaign. So shoot for what you want and use the methods from those articles and rules supplements to make it happen (DMG for example or Savage Species).
Personally I would use an awakened skeleton which should be a very low or a +0 ECL race. Also a Skeleton Warrior from 2nd edition would be a good choice, you would have to get with the DM to get that one squared away. Also a Death Knight would be a good choice as well (LA +5), you could also play the status of the Death Knight template as a curse and your character is trying to break free of it by killing the Lich, which could make your character good undead that could become deathless or returned to life through completing the quest or through the help of clerics.
Anyway it sounds like its going to be fun for you to do that and it wouldn't be a bad idea for me to do it with one of my old characters. Good luck.
baby_kamikaize_kobold
08-20-07, 02:02 PM If you have access to the book of vile darkness you could be a bone creature (you know seeing as you might only have a skeleton left after all those years) they aren't that bad and you can just have the DM overrule the alignment. They have good abilities for a fighter.
seska
09-08-07, 08:11 AM Ok. Thanks for all your help guys. Gametesting this character now and already had to make a couple of adjustments. As soon as I think it's right will post details. Let's just say it's been fun so far. Example - Wyverns? Pah! immunity to poison!
Rustmonster
09-08-07, 10:56 AM i love necropolitan rogues and mages. even w/ the LA, going d12 vs. d6 or d4 makes up for it regardless of Con or not on avg. HP you'll wind up w/ more HP even w/ the 10HP gap, no Con, etc. a shrewd investment.

Just wanted to point out that Necropolitains only get d12s for any CURRENT HD they have. If they level up, they take the worse ones.
j3st3r
09-08-07, 11:03 AM There's quite neat undead template for fighters called Swordwraith in Fiend Folio (updated version here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040202a
1 ton ghost
09-08-07, 12:09 PM Just wanted to point out that Necropolitains only get d12s for any CURRENT HD they have. If they level up, they take the worse ones.

you sure about that? please cite a definitive source cuz' it's still hotly debated in both camps to be sure.
there's been quite a rumpus over that discrepancy and no one is certain really.
Rustmonster
09-08-07, 06:46 PM you sure about that? please cite a definitive source cuz' it's still hotly debated in both camps to be sure.
there's been quite a rumpus over that discrepancy and no one is certain really.

I am indeed not sure. It is a very strange thing, as for, say, the Lich, it says "Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s". But then again, the Mummy Lord has 10 levels of cleric, all of which use cleric HD, which implies that if it doesn't state "current and future", your future HD don't become d12. And then when we look at the Necropolitain, it just says "Increase to d12", which is very vague. If we take the logic implied by the Mummy Lord, then they do not get d12 HD in the future.

I personally think they SHOULD get a d12, but I have been told otherwise. It would be nice to have an official ruling.
The_Shaman
09-08-07, 06:53 PM Has anyone thought of using the FR Curst? It's a weird thing, unlike most undead it's actually quite hard to kill.

Edit: looking at the swordwraith, it doesn't look bad either. At least, as much as anything with that LA can be.
Omega_Grey
09-08-07, 06:57 PM From what I have seen, the only reason that the mummy didnt get extra d12's instead was that it is a specific creature and not a template. All the other presented undead templates have full d12's, but I suppose you could say that they just recently became undead. Also I think there was a discussion in an ask wizards or sage advice or something where someone asked if a ghoul fighter would get d12 or d10 and they said it would be a d10 for all creatures, but templated undead would use d12's. I could be wrong though. Personally I think that the necropolitain should get the d12, its just too big of a hit otherwise. I mean, why should the 15th level rogue get full d12's for waiting so long and I only get 4d12 since I did it early in my career, the build should be the same at both power levels. Otherwise one is significantly better then the other.
1 ton ghost
09-08-07, 09:06 PM well said and well thought out. i guess w/ the advent of 4th ed on the horizon, they'll be busy trying to secure that next quick buck...and it is too soon btw. why bother on a mechanical question when there is money to be made?

i'm of the opinion that characters should get d12 for Necropolitan as it was the only real playable undead type (template) anyway that was geared for character play. God bless Libris Mortis.
yeah, all the benefits are super sweet, but ...
-having no Con can be a risky proposition (rare but necessary Fort Save)
-missing the "dying buffer" (-1through -9HP)
-turning/rebuking can have you vaporized if cleric is big enough threat
-the existential crisis and social problems for RP are more or less permanent. that is, unless you can hide your little problem, good luck getting an inn. most attack you on sight
-most party clerics spontaneously cast Cureatives...you know where this is going. how many potions of Inflict are out there?

you need to be compensated for these. i mean, d12 is nice, but it's only averaging 6 and dead is dead. still, i mean you could go either way and debate pro/con all night. maybe they meant that for monsters/antagonists w/ class levels whereas PCs get d12. a guess, not sure. you'd think w/ ye' old book of undead it would've been spelled out clearly as it's not that gray. i mean, we're talking numeric values, not something like alignment or other flavor related elements.
it's like the designers couldn't agree on such a simple concept and never made an official ruling. and it's been years...

for Necros, you're encouraged to think more carefully instead of relying on your HP level i guess. many things outside the dungeon work against you. w/out judicious Disguise, you better be kicking it in Thay or Zhentil Keep, someplace sympathetic, etc. otherwise those precious few HP will be contested daily i'm sure.
Majick
09-09-07, 12:49 PM All hitdie are d12's for Necropolitans (past, present and future) because you are UNDEAD

Not having a Constitution sucks. Take Improved Toughness (gives you +1 HP per hitdie, and works retro-actively, as well as applying to future hitdie)

If Hit Points are becoming an issue, ask if you can take the Evolved Undead template in the same book: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma, Fast Healing 3 (yes this version works for Undead), and i believe some turn resistance (+4 i think) all for only a +1 Level Adjustment.

So, a lvl 6 Fighter Necropolitan Evolved Undead would have (ECL 7 as stated by you as the level you need to be at):

- a +6 BaB

- no Con score, but with +1 HP per Hitdie (from improved toughness) and fast healing 3 (from evolved undead) you should be ok

-+2 Strength and Charisma, meaning you hit harder and that if you decide to take Leadership (which i think would be AWESOME) you might be able to attract some wicked-badass Undead cohorts and minions to follow you! (Goodly aligned skeleoton army anyone!?) :D

P.S. I believe there is a feat in the Libris Mortis that actually gives you bonuses to attracting undead cohorts but negatives for living ones... so yeah, maybe think about that at lvl 8 or 9 feat choice (assuming still taking fighter progression)
Rustmonster
09-09-07, 08:45 PM All hitdie are d12's for Necropolitans (past, present and future) because you are UNDEAD

That doesn't help. It says nowhere specificly that undead get d12 for CLASS HD. It says you do for racial HD, but says nothing about CLASS HD. This is the problem. They should have gone into more detail.
Omega_Grey
09-10-07, 02:07 AM Go with your gut. Which one makes more sense to you? Gaining a d12 of hp every level like every other templated undead. Or gaining the class hp causing the final result of the character to be different based on when they took the template. If you only changed previous HD to d12 then you would want to wait until the end of your career for the most bang for your buck. Whereas if you change all past, current, and future then the end result is much more predictable then and appealing then if it didnt.
runestar
09-10-07, 02:44 AM From what I have seen, the only reason that the mummy didnt get extra d12's instead was that it is a specific creature and not a template. All the other presented undead templates have full d12's, but I suppose you could say that they just recently became undead.

To be fair, while I agree with your statement in general, I thought I would point out that the statted version of duargototh (a wyrm black dragon wiz20/archmage5 with the dracolich template) in the wotc website uses d4s to determine the hp for its 25 class lvs, rather than d12s. Though this is using the 3.0 version of the dracolich template as presented in the FRCS, so I am not sure if this is still relevant.

Basically my point is that you should, in theory at least, get only what the template explicitly states you get, no more or less. If the template does not state that all future HD are d12s automatically, then we should not assume that you get them (contrast this with the vampire and lich templates, which do clearly make such a provision).

However, considering the wotc track record when it comes to shoddy editing, I am not sure just how relevant this really is in the greater picture.:embarrass
Omega_Grey
09-10-07, 03:00 AM Yes, that is a good point. I am not here to try and convert the masses to my point of view, I just want to present my point of view so that it finally makes sense to me. I have a habit of jumbling up my thoughts as I type and I often repeat my point to make sure that everyone can understand where I get my point of view. So as I said before, go with your gut. If it makes sense one way then go with it (with DM approval as needed).
runestar
09-10-07, 03:09 AM It could work either way.

Consider that the necropolitan template already gives a lot of benefits via the undead immunities you get. At LA+0 (yes, I know that you lose xp, but that would eventually be gained back).

If we take the worst case scenenario and assume that only classes with poor HD (d4s like wiz or sorc) and dumping con (8 or less) will take said template, we have to weigh if it might be problematic that their HD be automatically upgraded to d12s (on average, it works to a wizard having roughly 18con).

Does this represent too great a gain to the recipient with no discernable drawback? You have decent hp (for a spellcaster anyways) and tons of immunities at negligible cost. One might argue that perhaps that base HD should be retained to balance out all those benefits you accrue.

It is also interesting to note that the forsaken race (warcraft RPG) is a LA+0 undead race which does not automatically upgrade your HD (you use your class's original HD), though it has a feat which lets you use your cha mod to determine extra hp, and a "paragon" class feature which improves your class's HD by the next step.
Omega_Grey
09-10-07, 03:25 AM Basically my point is it should be one way or the other. You should either have all HD as d12's or all HD as class dictates. If you look at wizard 17 that goes through the ritual and gains the template he now has 16 HD of d12 and will gain 4 HD of d4 by level 20. Now look at the wizard 5 that takes the template who now has 4 HD of d12 and will gain 16 HD of d4 by level 20. They are basically the same in every other way, but based on when they took the template they now have differing Hp (on average). To me this just adds to much randomness into the final product. I like to be able to say that if a=b and b=c, then a must equal c as well. Am I making any sense, or am I just rambling again?
Robogast
09-10-07, 12:08 PM Has anyone considered the half-undead templates from dragon(#296, I think)? There are half ghouls/zombies/vampires/ghosts(:confused: ), and another outright race that is descended from one of the aforementioned templates. One upside to using these is that as far as I remember they don't get destroyed at 0 hp like usual. Hope that helps. Out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seska 08-12-07, 11:26 PM	Just wondering if anyone can give me any pointers on how to create an undead fighter?! The nearest I've come to is a necropolitan, but there are a couple of adjustments that i'd need to make. The problem mainly being this is someone who's been resurrected (200yrs into the future) not welcomed themselves into the undead world. She would also have to be lawful neutral, or even good (yes, I realise I may not get away with that one!). Any ideas greatly appreciated!
Duelpersonality 08-12-07, 11:57 PM	Well, if all you're looking for is that the character be undead, necropolitan is not a bad way to go. You can always work on the specific fluff with your DM. Also, note that necropolitan does not change the alignment of the base creature, so it would seem that any alignment is possible with the template (but that is something you should run by your DM first).
Tsh77769 08-13-07, 02:08 AM	Isn't that flavor of ice cream?:)
1 ton ghost 08-13-07, 02:35 AM	undead favors lower HD critters since they have no Con. the Ftr concept is dynamic and has a mysterious feel/good RP potential, but is risky no Con, this is great since you'll probably never need to make a FORT save again, but if you do, watch out...all you get is base FORT w/ no Con to back it, ie)Disintegrate can ruin your day quickly other problem is the 10HP gap. at 0 HP, you are destroyed, not dying, so you lose -1 through -10HP buffer so always go for the high AC i love necropolitan rogues and mages. even w/ the LA, going d12 vs. d6 or d4makes up for it regardless of Con or not on avg. HP you'll wind up w/ more HP even w/ the 10HP gap, no Con, etc. a shrewd investment. rogues especially-don't need Poison Use if you can't be poisoned, darkvision rocks, Disguise (class skill) will help w/ that "skin condition" -never sleeping/eating is basically Ring of Sustanence for free and terribly effective for guard detail. -never fatigued/exhausted so you can always force march, carry the heaviest weight, and of course, no frostbite or heat stroke, and of course, there's no Rage/Frenzy fallout -no subdual/nonlethal dmg...consider boxing someone, you'll eventually win. -no ability dmg. you can effectively hunt other undead w/ impunity biggest point to consider is the image/social issues and occasional Turn/Rebuke. don't let them ever know. Disguise Spot isn't a class skill for a cleric so unless he's Detecting Undead, you have the advantage straight up. just wait till you sucker him into an Inflict spell and he goes, "omg, i just healed him for free." then all bets are off...
seska 08-13-07, 07:44 AM	Yep, i did notice that with necropolitan (the undead kind. Not the neopolitan with a hint of ghoul. Lol! :P ), but I think I may only get away with lawful neutral. In life she was a 12 level fighter/Kensai (which brings problems of it's own!), and she was lawful good, but I want there to be a sense of something not being quite right. The DM has already said that to bring her back I have to sacrifice coming back to 7th level (party average) and I need to be able to convince him this is going to work without me being over or under powerful. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to bring back my favourite character, and was only able to be broached because the DM has brought back his favourite (and most memorable) Lich who was the arch-enemy for countless adventures, so I really dont want to screw it up. The things I need to work out are how to heal (would 'inflict' still work if she wasn't evil?), alignment, etc. She's not a zombie or any of the other undead creatures, but she will have their advantages/disadvantages. Think of 'The Crow' or when Buffy was brought back. Didn't think about 'disguise'. Definately a biggy there! How do i transpose my con from life, to death/undead? Do I just get rid of it? Thanks guys.
Duelpersonality 08-13-07, 10:45 AM	You just get rid of Con (which would seem to be more of a problem than usual, given that this character was a fighter and probably had at least a decent Con). Inflict spells would still heal an undead character regardless of alignment, so if you're trying to hide your nature from the rest of the party you should make sure that the party healer doesn't come close to you with cure spells. Thankfully necropolitans have the unnatural resilliance (I believe that's what it's called) ability, allowing them to heal over time unlike other undead. This sounds like it's going to be a very interesting dynamic for a character. Good luck!
seska 08-14-07, 12:24 PM	You just get rid of Con (which would seem to be more of a problem than usual, given that this character was a fighter and probably had at least a decent Con). Inflict spells would still heal an undead character regardless of alignment, so if you're trying to hide your nature from the rest of the party you should make sure that the party healer doesn't come close to you with cure spells. Thankfully necropolitans have the unnatural resilliance (I believe that's what it's called) ability, allowing them to heal over time unlike other undead. This sounds like it's going to be a very interesting dynamic for a character. Good luck! Thanks! Found some good stuff in other books but will probably try to create something myself and hope the DM buys it! lol! Will post once I've created it, either here or in classes so you guys could give me a briefing before showing it to the DM!
celestialkin 08-14-07, 12:49 PM	The things I need to work out are how to heal (would 'inflict' still work if she wasn't evil?), alignment, etc. She's not a zombie or any of the other undead creatures, but she will have their advantages/disadvantages. Think of 'The Crow' or when Buffy was brought back. Didn't think about 'disguise'. Definately a biggy there! How do i transpose my con from life, to death/undead? Do I just get rid of it? Thanks guys. Do you have a copy of Exalted Deeds at your disposal? If so look into the deathless. Basically, they are people who decided to stay behind for noble reasons (guard their king's tomb, watch over the living, etc.). They are undead, but are instead made out of positive energy. Therefore, they can be healed by positive energy, and they do not show up as evil. I recently played an undead psion using the necropolitan template, and my DM ruled I was a deathless instead of an undead. It did not unbalance things, and since I was made of good energy the cleric and paladin could decide not to smash me without their deities getting upset. Plus they were also able to heal me. I forgot where (Faerun maybe?), but there is even a powerful elven community somewhere, which keeps it's greatest members around after they die as good (deathless) undead. And I believe one of the Faerun books has rules for a good elven lich, which stays around to watch over it's family three, and I believe the same book also has rules for plain good aligned liches. Basically, it is not unheard of for there to be good aligned undead/deathless in the worlds.
speed6620 08-14-07, 02:29 PM	Well you have to calculate ECL and what you want your character to be man, its really your decision and your character. I mean there are ways to make a powerful undead variety into a level progression and make it very balanced with normal PCs, template classes for example can be found on the wizards site under savage progressions and show you how to make a template or monster class work into a normal campaign. So shoot for what you want and use the methods from those articles and rules supplements to make it happen (DMG for example or Savage Species). Personally I would use an awakened skeleton which should be a very low or a +0 ECL race. Also a Skeleton Warrior from 2nd edition would be a good choice, you would have to get with the DM to get that one squared away. Also a Death Knight would be a good choice as well (LA +5), you could also play the status of the Death Knight template as a curse and your character is trying to break free of it by killing the Lich, which could make your character good undead that could become deathless or returned to life through completing the quest or through the help of clerics. Anyway it sounds like its going to be fun for you to do that and it wouldn't be a bad idea for me to do it with one of my old characters. Good luck.
baby_kamikaize_kobold 08-20-07, 02:02 PM	If you have access to the book of vile darkness you could be a bone creature (you know seeing as you might only have a skeleton left after all those years) they aren't that bad and you can just have the DM overrule the alignment. They have good abilities for a fighter.
seska 09-08-07, 08:11 AM	Ok. Thanks for all your help guys. Gametesting this character now and already had to make a couple of adjustments. As soon as I think it's right will post details. Let's just say it's been fun so far. Example - Wyverns? Pah! immunity to poison!
Rustmonster 09-08-07, 10:56 AM	i love necropolitan rogues and mages. even w/ the LA, going d12 vs. d6 or d4 makes up for it regardless of Con or not on avg. HP you'll wind up w/ more HP even w/ the 10HP gap, no Con, etc. a shrewd investment. Just wanted to point out that Necropolitains only get d12s for any CURRENT HD they have. If they level up, they take the worse ones.
j3st3r 09-08-07, 11:03 AM	There's quite neat undead template for fighters called Swordwraith in Fiend Folio (updated version here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040202a
1 ton ghost 09-08-07, 12:09 PM	Just wanted to point out that Necropolitains only get d12s for any CURRENT HD they have. If they level up, they take the worse ones. you sure about that? please cite a definitive source cuz' it's still hotly debated in both camps to be sure. there's been quite a rumpus over that discrepancy and no one is certain really.
Rustmonster 09-08-07, 06:46 PM	you sure about that? please cite a definitive source cuz' it's still hotly debated in both camps to be sure. there's been quite a rumpus over that discrepancy and no one is certain really. I am indeed not sure. It is a very strange thing, as for, say, the Lich, it says "Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s". But then again, the Mummy Lord has 10 levels of cleric, all of which use cleric HD, which implies that if it doesn't state "current and future", your future HD don't become d12. And then when we look at the Necropolitain, it just says "Increase to d12", which is very vague. If we take the logic implied by the Mummy Lord, then they do not get d12 HD in the future. I personally think they SHOULD get a d12, but I have been told otherwise. It would be nice to have an official ruling.
The_Shaman 09-08-07, 06:53 PM	Has anyone thought of using the FR Curst? It's a weird thing, unlike most undead it's actually quite hard to kill. Edit: looking at the swordwraith, it doesn't look bad either. At least, as much as anything with that LA can be.
Omega_Grey 09-08-07, 06:57 PM	From what I have seen, the only reason that the mummy didnt get extra d12's instead was that it is a specific creature and not a template. All the other presented undead templates have full d12's, but I suppose you could say that they just recently became undead. Also I think there was a discussion in an ask wizards or sage advice or something where someone asked if a ghoul fighter would get d12 or d10 and they said it would be a d10 for all creatures, but templated undead would use d12's. I could be wrong though. Personally I think that the necropolitain should get the d12, its just too big of a hit otherwise. I mean, why should the 15th level rogue get full d12's for waiting so long and I only get 4d12 since I did it early in my career, the build should be the same at both power levels. Otherwise one is significantly better then the other.
1 ton ghost 09-08-07, 09:06 PM	well said and well thought out. i guess w/ the advent of 4th ed on the horizon, they'll be busy trying to secure that next quick buck...and it is too soon btw. why bother on a mechanical question when there is money to be made? i'm of the opinion that characters should get d12 for Necropolitan as it was the only real playable undead type (template) anyway that was geared for character play. God bless Libris Mortis. yeah, all the benefits are super sweet, but ... -having no Con can be a risky proposition (rare but necessary Fort Save) -missing the "dying buffer" (-1through -9HP) -turning/rebuking can have you vaporized if cleric is big enough threat -the existential crisis and social problems for RP are more or less permanent. that is, unless you can hide your little problem, good luck getting an inn. most attack you on sight -most party clerics spontaneously cast Cureatives...you know where this is going. how many potions of Inflict are out there? you need to be compensated for these. i mean, d12 is nice, but it's only averaging 6 and dead is dead. still, i mean you could go either way and debate pro/con all night. maybe they meant that for monsters/antagonists w/ class levels whereas PCs get d12. a guess, not sure. you'd think w/ ye' old book of undead it would've been spelled out clearly as it's not that gray. i mean, we're talking numeric values, not something like alignment or other flavor related elements. it's like the designers couldn't agree on such a simple concept and never made an official ruling. and it's been years... for Necros, you're encouraged to think more carefully instead of relying on your HP level i guess. many things outside the dungeon work against you. w/out judicious Disguise, you better be kicking it in Thay or Zhentil Keep, someplace sympathetic, etc. otherwise those precious few HP will be contested daily i'm sure.
Majick 09-09-07, 12:49 PM	All hitdie are d12's for Necropolitans (past, present and future) because you are UNDEAD Not having a Constitution sucks. Take Improved Toughness (gives you +1 HP per hitdie, and works retro-actively, as well as applying to future hitdie) If Hit Points are becoming an issue, ask if you can take the Evolved Undead template in the same book: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma, Fast Healing 3 (yes this version works for Undead), and i believe some turn resistance (+4 i think) all for only a +1 Level Adjustment. So, a lvl 6 Fighter Necropolitan Evolved Undead would have (ECL 7 as stated by you as the level you need to be at): - a +6 BaB - no Con score, but with +1 HP per Hitdie (from improved toughness) and fast healing 3 (from evolved undead) you should be ok -+2 Strength and Charisma, meaning you hit harder and that if you decide to take Leadership (which i think would be AWESOME) you might be able to attract some wicked-badass Undead cohorts and minions to follow you! (Goodly aligned skeleoton army anyone!?) :D P.S. I believe there is a feat in the Libris Mortis that actually gives you bonuses to attracting undead cohorts but negatives for living ones... so yeah, maybe think about that at lvl 8 or 9 feat choice (assuming still taking fighter progression)
Rustmonster 09-09-07, 08:45 PM	All hitdie are d12's for Necropolitans (past, present and future) because you are UNDEAD That doesn't help. It says nowhere specificly that undead get d12 for CLASS HD. It says you do for racial HD, but says nothing about CLASS HD. This is the problem. They should have gone into more detail.
Omega_Grey 09-10-07, 02:07 AM	Go with your gut. Which one makes more sense to you? Gaining a d12 of hp every level like every other templated undead. Or gaining the class hp causing the final result of the character to be different based on when they took the template. If you only changed previous HD to d12 then you would want to wait until the end of your career for the most bang for your buck. Whereas if you change all past, current, and future then the end result is much more predictable then and appealing then if it didnt.
runestar 09-10-07, 02:44 AM	From what I have seen, the only reason that the mummy didnt get extra d12's instead was that it is a specific creature and not a template. All the other presented undead templates have full d12's, but I suppose you could say that they just recently became undead. To be fair, while I agree with your statement in general, I thought I would point out that the statted version of duargototh (a wyrm black dragon wiz20/archmage5 with the dracolich template) in the wotc website uses d4s to determine the hp for its 25 class lvs, rather than d12s. Though this is using the 3.0 version of the dracolich template as presented in the FRCS, so I am not sure if this is still relevant. Basically my point is that you should, in theory at least, get only what the template explicitly states you get, no more or less. If the template does not state that all future HD are d12s automatically, then we should not assume that you get them (contrast this with the vampire and lich templates, which do clearly make such a provision). However, considering the wotc track record when it comes to shoddy editing, I am not sure just how relevant this really is in the greater picture.:embarrass
Omega_Grey 09-10-07, 03:00 AM	Yes, that is a good point. I am not here to try and convert the masses to my point of view, I just want to present my point of view so that it finally makes sense to me. I have a habit of jumbling up my thoughts as I type and I often repeat my point to make sure that everyone can understand where I get my point of view. So as I said before, go with your gut. If it makes sense one way then go with it (with DM approval as needed).
runestar 09-10-07, 03:09 AM	It could work either way. Consider that the necropolitan template already gives a lot of benefits via the undead immunities you get. At LA+0 (yes, I know that you lose xp, but that would eventually be gained back). If we take the worst case scenenario and assume that only classes with poor HD (d4s like wiz or sorc) and dumping con (8 or less) will take said template, we have to weigh if it might be problematic that their HD be automatically upgraded to d12s (on average, it works to a wizard having roughly 18con). Does this represent too great a gain to the recipient with no discernable drawback? You have decent hp (for a spellcaster anyways) and tons of immunities at negligible cost. One might argue that perhaps that base HD should be retained to balance out all those benefits you accrue. It is also interesting to note that the forsaken race (warcraft RPG) is a LA+0 undead race which does not automatically upgrade your HD (you use your class's original HD), though it has a feat which lets you use your cha mod to determine extra hp, and a "paragon" class feature which improves your class's HD by the next step.
Omega_Grey 09-10-07, 03:25 AM	Basically my point is it should be one way or the other. You should either have all HD as d12's or all HD as class dictates. If you look at wizard 17 that goes through the ritual and gains the template he now has 16 HD of d12 and will gain 4 HD of d4 by level 20. Now look at the wizard 5 that takes the template who now has 4 HD of d12 and will gain 16 HD of d4 by level 20. They are basically the same in every other way, but based on when they took the template they now have differing Hp (on average). To me this just adds to much randomness into the final product. I like to be able to say that if a=b and b=c, then a must equal c as well. Am I making any sense, or am I just rambling again?
Robogast 09-10-07, 12:08 PM	Has anyone considered the half-undead templates from dragon(#296, I think)? There are half ghouls/zombies/vampires/ghosts(:confused: ), and another outright race that is descended from one of the aforementioned templates. One upside to using these is that as far as I remember they don't get destroyed at 0 hp like usual. Hope that helps. Out.