Undead Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Undead Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
masamunekaigen
08-29-07, 04:18 PM Pondering an undead character, and I heard there was a new rule about intelligent undead basing something of of CHA, I think it said intelligent undead bases their HP off their CHA.

Is that true? Is it only with certain ones or all of them?
StruckingFuggle
08-29-07, 05:09 PM Cha to HP is an ability called "supernatural toughness", which only some undead have.

In general, they just get their hd roll in hp.

Now, all undead use their cha in place of con for Concentration checks, as noted in the Undead type rules.
masamunekaigen
08-29-07, 05:37 PM What about liches and Death knights? Do they have that?
StruckingFuggle
08-29-07, 05:48 PM You can check d20srd.org for the undead type and for liches.

No, Liches do not get it (Dry Liches, however, do); as for Death Knights, I'm AFB right now so I can't tell you for sure, but the Crystal Keep Template Index says it does not.
Thane26425
08-29-07, 06:07 PM I seem to recall seeing somewhere that intelligent undead could use CHA in place of CON for fortitude saves. Can't find the sourece right now though. Perhaps it was a feat?
mists_cloud
08-29-07, 07:15 PM If the undead creature is affected by a spell that can affect both objects and living creatures(that is not just a creature affect, such as slay living), an undead creature has to use its charisma modifier instead of its constitution modifier.
StruckingFuggle
08-29-07, 07:18 PM If the undead creature is affected by a spell that can affect both objects and living creatures(that is not just a creature affect, such as slay living), an undead creature has to use its charisma modifier instead of its constitution modifier.

According to who/what, from where? I'm not finding anything like this rule at all...

I'm pretty sure that's a houserule.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-29-07, 07:43 PM If the undead creature is affected by a spell that can affect both objects and living creatures(that is not just a creature affect, such as slay living), an undead creature has to use its charisma modifier instead of its constitution modifier.
Not so, they use their Con mod (which, as normal for a nonability, is +0). This is why Disintegrate is recognized as a stellar anti-undead spell. Poor Fort progression + Con mod 0 = horribly weak Fort saves.
diegosephroth
08-29-07, 07:52 PM I wondered the same times ago. I believe the first time this "Unholy Toughness" (its the right name) came out was in Libris Mortis.

If you turn it into a feat it might becomes too overpower with liches and other spellcasters, so I houseruled that you can take it as a feat(If youre undead), but in the end of the progression:

Toughness>>>>>Improved Toughness >>>>> Unholy Toughness

Its ok until now.
Shaggy_Shaggs
08-29-07, 07:56 PM That Unholy Toughness feat chain isn't a bad houserule. I'd seriously consider taking the utter crap Toughness feat to get to it, but it's not a must-have.

I'll have to mention this to some DMs I know.
ToastedAmphibian
08-29-07, 09:09 PM That Unholy Toughness feat chain isn't a bad houserule. I'd seriously consider taking the utter crap Toughness feat to get to it, but it's not a must-have.

I'll have to mention this to some DMs I know.

Secound that!
StruckingFuggle
08-29-07, 10:00 PM I'll point out that the already vastly superior Dry Lich gets it for free...

I don't think it's all that bad, and at the cost of Toughness and Improved Toughness, it's a bit absurd and overcosted, I think. With just Improved Toughness, maybe.

Then it'd be a tough choice, but I can't see a single undead spellcaster taking it if it required Toughness and Improved Toughness, too. Maybe if it was IT and Great Fort and put your cha mod or half to fort saves, too...
Thane26425
08-30-07, 12:33 AM Found it. In the Libris Mortis it says that undead use their CHA modifier for concentration checks rather than CON. That's what I remembered reading, so I was only off a little.
StruckingFuggle
08-30-07, 01:16 AM Found it. In the Libris Mortis it says that undead use their CHA modifier for concentration checks rather than CON. That's what I remembered reading, so I was only off a little.

It's also in the MMI, under the Undead type.
KRATOS_BLADE_of_SPARTA
08-30-07, 01:40 AM There is a Feat called Fairies Mystery something something from a Dragon Magazine that uses Int instea of Con to determine Hitpoints, I know some Liches that'll find that useful.
masamunekaigen
08-30-07, 01:00 PM There is a Feat called Fairies Mystery something something from a Dragon Magazine that uses Int instea of Con to determine Hitpoints, I know some Liches that'll find that useful.

It have any prereq? And is that for every level or just one?
diegosephroth
09-01-07, 09:59 AM There is a Feat called Fairies Mystery something something from a Dragon Magazine that uses Int instea of Con to determine Hitpoints, I know some Liches that'll find that useful.

Uhm
though it may seem Int = Cha, I would probably not allow it...

Dunno why, it seems inteligence is already keyd to several stuff, so it would probably unballance...

and its not that logic as unholy toughness
Omega_Grey
09-02-07, 10:22 AM When I first saw unholy toughness it was in one of the new monster manuals (I think number 4 but I could be wrong) and what struck me as odd was that if I remember right every single undead in that book had it. It was as if they just thought of it and thought that every undead should have it.
Ace_of_time
09-03-07, 12:04 PM All Con base move and the like run off of CHA instead not just Concentration checks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
masamunekaigen 08-29-07, 04:18 PM	Pondering an undead character, and I heard there was a new rule about intelligent undead basing something of of CHA, I think it said intelligent undead bases their HP off their CHA. Is that true? Is it only with certain ones or all of them?
StruckingFuggle 08-29-07, 05:09 PM	Cha to HP is an ability called "supernatural toughness", which only some undead have. In general, they just get their hd roll in hp. Now, all undead use their cha in place of con for Concentration checks, as noted in the Undead type rules.
masamunekaigen 08-29-07, 05:37 PM	What about liches and Death knights? Do they have that?
StruckingFuggle 08-29-07, 05:48 PM	You can check d20srd.org for the undead type and for liches. No, Liches do not get it (Dry Liches, however, do); as for Death Knights, I'm AFB right now so I can't tell you for sure, but the Crystal Keep Template Index says it does not.
Thane26425 08-29-07, 06:07 PM	I seem to recall seeing somewhere that intelligent undead could use CHA in place of CON for fortitude saves. Can't find the sourece right now though. Perhaps it was a feat?
mists_cloud 08-29-07, 07:15 PM	If the undead creature is affected by a spell that can affect both objects and living creatures(that is not just a creature affect, such as slay living), an undead creature has to use its charisma modifier instead of its constitution modifier.
StruckingFuggle 08-29-07, 07:18 PM	If the undead creature is affected by a spell that can affect both objects and living creatures(that is not just a creature affect, such as slay living), an undead creature has to use its charisma modifier instead of its constitution modifier. According to who/what, from where? I'm not finding anything like this rule at all... I'm pretty sure that's a houserule.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-29-07, 07:43 PM	If the undead creature is affected by a spell that can affect both objects and living creatures(that is not just a creature affect, such as slay living), an undead creature has to use its charisma modifier instead of its constitution modifier. Not so, they use their Con mod (which, as normal for a nonability, is +0). This is why Disintegrate is recognized as a stellar anti-undead spell. Poor Fort progression + Con mod 0 = horribly weak Fort saves.
diegosephroth 08-29-07, 07:52 PM	I wondered the same times ago. I believe the first time this "Unholy Toughness" (its the right name) came out was in Libris Mortis. If you turn it into a feat it might becomes too overpower with liches and other spellcasters, so I houseruled that you can take it as a feat(If youre undead), but in the end of the progression: Toughness>>>>>Improved Toughness >>>>> Unholy Toughness Its ok until now.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-29-07, 07:56 PM	That Unholy Toughness feat chain isn't a bad houserule. I'd seriously consider taking the utter crap Toughness feat to get to it, but it's not a must-have. I'll have to mention this to some DMs I know.
ToastedAmphibian 08-29-07, 09:09 PM	That Unholy Toughness feat chain isn't a bad houserule. I'd seriously consider taking the utter crap Toughness feat to get to it, but it's not a must-have. I'll have to mention this to some DMs I know. Secound that!
StruckingFuggle 08-29-07, 10:00 PM	I'll point out that the already vastly superior Dry Lich gets it for free... I don't think it's all that bad, and at the cost of Toughness and Improved Toughness, it's a bit absurd and overcosted, I think. With just Improved Toughness, maybe. Then it'd be a tough choice, but I can't see a single undead spellcaster taking it if it required Toughness and Improved Toughness, too. Maybe if it was IT and Great Fort and put your cha mod or half to fort saves, too...
Thane26425 08-30-07, 12:33 AM	Found it. In the Libris Mortis it says that undead use their CHA modifier for concentration checks rather than CON. That's what I remembered reading, so I was only off a little.
StruckingFuggle 08-30-07, 01:16 AM	Found it. In the Libris Mortis it says that undead use their CHA modifier for concentration checks rather than CON. That's what I remembered reading, so I was only off a little. It's also in the MMI, under the Undead type.
KRATOS_BLADE_of_SPARTA 08-30-07, 01:40 AM	There is a Feat called Fairies Mystery something something from a Dragon Magazine that uses Int instea of Con to determine Hitpoints, I know some Liches that'll find that useful.
masamunekaigen 08-30-07, 01:00 PM	There is a Feat called Fairies Mystery something something from a Dragon Magazine that uses Int instea of Con to determine Hitpoints, I know some Liches that'll find that useful. It have any prereq? And is that for every level or just one?
diegosephroth 09-01-07, 09:59 AM	There is a Feat called Fairies Mystery something something from a Dragon Magazine that uses Int instea of Con to determine Hitpoints, I know some Liches that'll find that useful. Uhm though it may seem Int = Cha, I would probably not allow it... Dunno why, it seems inteligence is already keyd to several stuff, so it would probably unballance... and its not that logic as unholy toughness
Omega_Grey 09-02-07, 10:22 AM	When I first saw unholy toughness it was in one of the new monster manuals (I think number 4 but I could be wrong) and what struck me as odd was that if I remember right every single undead in that book had it. It was as if they just thought of it and thought that every undead should have it.
Ace_of_time 09-03-07, 12:04 PM	All Con base move and the like run off of CHA instead not just Concentration checks.