Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gnomemaster 05-14-07, 08:56 PM	This is an Undead race called the Unforgiven that I made. Let me know if it is too overpowered. These are intelligent undead more similar to zombies then liches. +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity Medium sized 30' base speed Darkvision 60' Undead Traits (undead type) -No Constitution -immunity to mind affecting spells and abilities -immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. -Nat Subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, and energy drain. -immune to strength and dexterity damage as well as fatigue and exhaustion. -negative energy heals while positive energy deals damage -does not heal naturally -uses charisma modifier for concentration checks. -not affected by raise dead or reincarnate. resurrection or true resurrection returns them to undead status, only wish or miracle can bring an undead back to the living. -do not breathe, eat, or sleep favored class: any This is not a template, this is a race. So any racial abilities your character had while alive are replaced by these.
Rustmonster 05-14-07, 09:05 PM	First off, he can heal normally because he has an intellegence score. Secondly, just from personal experiance, it seems impossible to have balanced stats (read: 0 level adjustment) with undead traits. Altough undead are affected by many speels and abilities, and altough there are many ways to dispach them, their traits do not lend well to being a pc without LA. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have a 0 LA undead, I've tried multiple times, but it never seems to work out. I hope you can work it out, however, and I wish you luck with the race. Undead power!
Gnomemaster 05-14-07, 09:07 PM	a warforged has an intelligence score but cannot heal naturally
Rustmonster 05-14-07, 09:09 PM	a warforged has an intelligence score but cannot heal naturally I know, but check the undead trait description, it says they can.
NerdNumber1 05-14-07, 09:17 PM	I know, but check the undead trait description, it says they can. Just give it a special subtype that lets it ignore some undead rules (check out how different the "living" construct warforged is different from normal constructs).
Rerecros 05-14-07, 10:37 PM	Just a little something I cooked up ;) Living dead Type: Living dead are partially-living creatures animated both by spiritual or supernatural forces and something resembling a metabolism. Living dead with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their living dead Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Living dead with more than 1 Hit Die are the only living dead who make use of the features of the living dead type. Features: A living dead creature has the following features. - 12-sided Hit Dice, or by character class. - Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard). - Good Will saves. - Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A living dead possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry). - Unlike other undead, a living dead has a Constitution score and gains (or loses) bonus hit points through a Constitution bonus (or penalty) as with other living creatures. - Unlike other undead, a living dead does not have darkvision. - Unlike other undead, a living dead is not immune to mind-influencing effects. - Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain. - Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal living dead. - Living dead react to injury and death the same way living creatures do. - Unlike other undead, living dead are subject to critical hits, effects requiring a Fort save, death from massive damage, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects. - Unlike other undead, a living dead can use the run action. - Living dead can be affected by spells that target living humanoids as well as by those that target undead (except for control undead). If either a living creature or an undead would be damaged more than the other by the same spell, then a living dead takes the worst damage of the two. Detect undead and deathwatch reveal living dead and allow the caster to distinguish living dead from undead and the living. The turning/rebuking power of clerics work as normal, except that living dead can never be destroyed or commanded in this fashion. - Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. - Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a Living dead does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Living dead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Living dead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. - Can be raised or resurrected. - Does not need to sleep, but must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells and to benefit from natural healing. - Does not need to eat, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes' feast and potions. - Does not need to breathe. - For all other instances, treat as undead.
Gnomemaster 05-15-07, 12:16 AM	I like it, however I think instead of living undead im going to call them cursed dead rather than living dead
Leukrythus 05-15-07, 10:18 AM	If an evil cleric had become a Lich and now has 200,000 XP (20th level), it is a 16th level cleric with an LA+4. Does it turn undead at 16th level, or at 20th level? What about other level based functions, such as base attack, saves, level based spell resistance, number of skills & feats, hit points, etc?
foxtail 05-15-07, 10:33 AM	Just a little something I cooked up ;) So, basically a squishy warforged?
Korlall 05-15-07, 10:34 AM	If an evil cleric had become a Lich and now has 200,000 XP (20th level), it is a 16th level cleric with an LA+4. Does it turn undead at 16th level, or at 20th level? What about other level based functions, such as base attack, saves, level based spell resistance, number of skills & feats, hit points, etc? If a cleric turned to a lich (LA +4) and has 200,000 exp, he his level 20, not 16... LA changes the EXP gained by killing monsters, it's not affecting the level you are by having X number of EXP... a character with 200 000 exp is a level 20 th character, whatever it's level adjustment... But, if a human cleric level 10 kills a creature with CR of 10, he gains 3,000 exp. But, if a lich (LA+4) cleric level 10 (ECL 14) kills a creature with CR of 10, then he only gains 1,050 EXP. That's how you calculate with LAs... So, your lich character turns undead as a level 20, cause he is level 20... (having 200,000 EXP)
Leukrythus 05-15-07, 10:59 AM	Thanks Korlall. So despite being a 16th level cleric, everything is calculated for a 20th level character as appropriate for class and template.
penchant 05-15-07, 11:58 AM	Thanks Korlall. So despite being a 16th level cleric, everything is calculated for a 20th level character as appropriate for class and template. No. The Level adjustment only applies to the XP he gains and CR and WBL factoring the DM does. A 16th level cleric is a 16th level cleric in all other ways, no matter what LA he has. He gets is ability boosts at every 4 character levels, feats at every 3 character levels, etc. LA plays no part in this. If you are a 16th level cleric and have an LA of +4 you still have to wait five levels before you can get an Epic feat. And to nitpick... Undead cannot be a 'race' if they do not reproduce. You could consider a vampire a race perhaps since they at least propigate themselves. That "living dead" template would make lots of sense if you simply called it "the reanimated" It fits the frankenstein mold perfectly and can cover everything from Frankenstein's Monster to Pet Cemetary.
Rerecros 05-15-07, 02:29 PM	So, basically a squishy warforged? :D Basically
foxtail 05-15-07, 04:17 PM	Now that I think about it, the "squishy warforged" metaphor could actually work. Give this living dead / reanimated race some 1st-level-only feats like "Fleshy Body" or "Bony Body" to replace Adamantine and Mithril, let them use special grafted necromantic totems instead of installed components, and so forth. I might come up with something later when I'm not pretending to work. And to nitpick... Undead cannot be a 'race' if they do not reproduce. You could consider a vampire a race perhaps since they at least propigate themselves. Maybe not "race" in the ecological sense; but in the sense of moving bodies that PCs like to stack class levels on, not being able to breed doesn't seem to be an issue.
Korlall 05-15-07, 04:22 PM	No. The Level adjustment only applies to the XP he gains and CR and WBL factoring the DM does. A 16th level cleric is a 16th level cleric in all other ways, no matter what LA he has. He gets is ability boosts at every 4 character levels, feats at every 3 character levels, etc. LA plays no part in this. If you are a 16th level cleric and have an LA of +4 you still have to wait five levels before you can get an Epic feat. And to nitpick... Undead cannot be a 'race' if they do not reproduce. You could consider a vampire a race perhaps since they at least propigate themselves. That "living dead" template would make lots of sense if you simply called it "the reanimated" It fits the frankenstein mold perfectly and can cover everything from Frankenstein's Monster to Pet Cemetary. Exactly
Zaistars69 05-15-07, 04:35 PM	And to nitpick... Undead cannot be a 'race' if they do not reproduce. You could consider a vampire a race perhaps since they at least propigate themselves. The D&D term race has nothing to do with the real life term. Warforged are a race and can't propogate. Unless of course you have a book and page number in mind. Then I'll conceed.
Zaistars69 05-15-07, 04:37 PM	This is an Undead race called the Unforgiven that I made. Let me know if it is too overpowered. These are intelligent undead more similar to zombies then liches. +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity Medium sized 30' base speed Darkvision 60' Undead Traits (undead type) -No Constitution -immunity to mind affecting spells and abilities -immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. -Nat Subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, and energy drain. -immune to strength and dexterity damage as well as fatigue and exhaustion. -negative energy heals while positive energy deals damage -does not heal naturally -uses charisma modifier for concentration checks. -not affected by raise dead or reincarnate. resurrection or true resurrection returns them to undead status, only wish or miracle can bring an undead back to the living. -do not breathe, eat, or sleep favored class: any This is not a template, this is a race. So any racial abilities your character had while alive are replaced by these. the biggest problem I see is you have no mechanic for these guys to heal except with magic. The warforged can be repaired with a skill check and with magic. These guys only magic. A rogue, fighter, etc with this "race" would be pretty well screwed.
Gnomemaster 05-15-07, 06:05 PM	i suppose. you are right. The biggest problem I have with penchant's remark about how and Undead cannot be a race is baloney. The Undead used to be living sentient humanoids (I assume here they are medium sized humanoids and not small or large) These Unforgiven live in a huge city that used to be Stratton. However, one day a horrible spell was unleashed that created the Dark Plague, all of Stratton's dead rose from their graves. These carried the plague inside them, and a bite from these first undead was poisonous. The disease would slowly kill the victim, then he would rise as an undead. A powerful wizard saw that the necromantic energy surrounding Stratton was spreading, he created twenty magical seals that stopped the spread, leaving Stratton caught in the plague. Undead can travel past the seals without trouble, but if a living creature were to die inside the necromantic zone he would rise again a few weeks later. Undead are born without any memories of their former lives. Note: I hope to make a feat like "Plague bearer" that lets your bite poison and kill a victim. Let me know what you think
braethias 05-15-07, 07:07 PM	I read your background, and Warcraft lore comes to mind. also, I'd like to point out that not having a con is a huh-yoooge benefit, as it renders you immune to pretty much all fort saves. There's no way of getting around that as any less than a +2 LA. Buuuut, change a few words here and there for the Warforged, and you've got yourself an undead race. I'd also say they'd get a bonus to saves versus pain effects, not having working nerves and all. Wait a sec, undead not a race is baloney? then why can there be so many variants of undead? undead orcs, undead humans, undead (pick something). do they stop being orcs, humans, or (pick something)s? that seems kind of silly to me. an undead orc isn't some new fantastic creature, it's just an orc that forgot to die. what about dragons? I'd say that the undead could never be a race unto themselves, (you can't be born undead, that doesn't work.) but you'd be unded in addition to what ever you were before. you're not half undead-half whatever, you're both at the same time. hmm, I think I'm rambling again...
Gnomemaster 05-15-07, 07:11 PM	I think that a "Living Dead" Orc is the same as a "Living Dead" Human. Its not the fact that they used to be orcs, its that they now are living dead. A Lich Human and Lich elf are still Liches. It's all about the end result, plus being a Living Dead could be good because then a player could say that their skin is covered in dead patches of fur and they have a dog muzzle, because in life they were a gnoll. No really in-game effect except for what they look like
braethias 05-15-07, 07:16 PM	Hmm... you might want to amend your race a little more then, saying that the racials for this undead race replace completely the old racials. Unless you did already, and I missed it. Makes more sense to me then. Wait, what about the ... the... something spawn. Emaciated? emancipated? I forget. It's in Savage species, if you can, you might want to look at it. It deals with regaining powers, memories, and skills and stuff for undead folks who've been freed.
Gnomemaster 05-15-07, 07:38 PM	Thats my plan, so I am going to do a real nice write up of my undead race and post it here for more comments.
penchant 05-15-07, 11:04 PM	As I said, I was nitpicking. In your first entrie you had no flavor text including methods of creation. An undead by itself is not really a race, since it has no method of propigation. A zombie is no more a race than a toaster is, since they are each created artificially. I realize that 'race' in D&D is simply what a base template is called, that was why I was bringing the distinction up of what a race actually is. A race is a subclassification of a species. A group of creatures must share some common link together and have a means of selfpropigation to continue on. Concerning the backstory you added: I think its good. This gives your undead people two things. One, a method of propigation. To preserve their society they may engender the elderly members of other races to come and be reborn in eternal unlife. Or they may be evil and lure groups of people there to die so they may continue on. Two, a homeland. They can form and develop their on necropolitan society and have a strong political arm that contacts and deals with other nations. Develop these ideas, you are on to something. The mechanics should always be secondary to the story.
Rerecros 05-16-07, 05:02 AM	:embarrass Just made some revisions to the Living dead type.
NerdNumber1 05-16-07, 01:50 PM	As I said, I was nitpicking. In your first entrie you had no flavor text including methods of creation. An undead by itself is not really a race, since it has no method of propigation. A zombie is no more a race than a toaster is, since they are each created artificially. I realize that 'race' in D&D is simply what a base template is called, that was why I was bringing the distinction up of what a race actually is. A race is a subclassification of a species. A group of creatures must share some common link together and have a means of selfpropigation to continue on. Concerning the backstory you added: I think its good. This gives your undead people two things. One, a method of propigation. To preserve their society they may engender the elderly members of other races to come and be reborn in eternal unlife. Or they may be evil and lure groups of people there to die so they may continue on. Two, a homeland. They can form and develop their on necropolitan society and have a strong political arm that contacts and deals with other nations. Develop these ideas, you are on to something. The mechanics should always be secondary to the story. You could even have them lose the memories of the corpse's past life. In this train of thought they wouldn't be revived living but a newly born creature that just needs to recycle a pre-used body. The race would have to either make deals with or steal from other races to procreate. Actually, it could be a similar story as the warforged (in the eberron book, check out the new inteligent zombies/skeletons created for war). Who wants to lose a living, tax-paying citizen when you can reuse fallen soldiers (or empty out overcrowded jails ;)).
penchant 05-16-07, 04:32 PM	Wan't there a Star Trek Episode with a race like that? Voyager perhaps? I seem to remember something along these same lines where a crew member was killed and brought back as a memeber of the alien race who are composed of reanimated people. The crew member tried to reclaim her old life on the crew but realized she was just different now and went to stay with the aliens... I'll look it up.
snakeman830 05-16-07, 04:57 PM	Heads up on LA. Add all HD to LA to determine experience gained and experience required for the next level! (MM, DMG) If ECL is above 20th level, YOUR CHARACTER IS CONSIDERED EPIC!!! (DMG, Monsters as characters in epic level area) Therefore: a lich 16th level cleric with 200,000 xp IS STILL 16th LEVEL!!! One more level, and he is considered an epic character. These are the RAW (I have even quoted the books they can be found in). If other things have been printed regarding this subject that overrides these, please let me know.
NerdNumber1 05-16-07, 08:46 PM	Heads up on LA. Add all HD to LA to determine experience gained and experience required for the next level! (MM, DMG) If ECL is above 20th level, YOUR CHARACTER IS CONSIDERED EPIC!!! (DMG, Monsters as characters in epic level area) Therefore: a lich 16th level cleric with 200,000 xp IS STILL 16th LEVEL!!! One more level, and he is considered an epic character. These are the RAW (I have even quoted the books they can be found in). If other things have been printed regarding this subject that overrides these, please let me know. I think you have the wrong thread.
Leukrythus 05-17-07, 08:08 AM	Add all HD to LA to determine experience gained and experience required for the next level. Therefore: a lich 16th level cleric with 200,000 xp IS STILL 16th LEVEL!!! One more level, and he is considered an epic character. So what you are saying is that ECL = Class Level + HD, but not LA?
ElberethSilverleaf 05-17-07, 08:23 AM	Dead animals don't breed and bear offspring. For a "race" to be considered a "race" it has to breed and has to have compatible genetic material that blends and is passed onto it's offspring. So what is the purpose of this "living dead" race in your campaign anyway?
ElberethSilverleaf 05-17-07, 08:30 AM	Wasn't there a Star Trek Episode with a race like that? Voyager perhaps? I seem to remember something along these same lines where a crew member was killed and brought back as a member of the alien race who are composed of reanimated people. The crew member tried to reclaim her old life on the crew but realized she was just different now and went to stay with the aliens... I'll look it up. Not only was she the reanimated husk of a dead women, but she also was infused with the DNA of an alien species that allowed the reanimation in the first place. I remember the episode too, it was very good. Made me decide not to have the DNA of my 9 yr old cats stored in cryo because you will never bring back the same being, even if it has all the same DNA and I brought it up identically. Once it dies it's soul is gone forever. (I have 2, brother and sister, the boy has died and I still don't regret having him cloned)
snakeman830 05-17-07, 08:55 AM	So what you are saying is that ECL = Class Level + HD, but not LA? not at all. HD+class+LA +ECL. (16 class + 4 LA = 20 ECL) Therefore, a 17th level cleric that is a lich is considered an epic character (17 class + 4LA = 21 ECL)
penchant 05-18-07, 06:13 AM	not at all. HD+class+LA +ECL. (16 class + 4 LA = 20 ECL) Therefore, a 17th level cleric that is a lich is considered an epic character (17 class + 4LA = 21 ECL) Ah. This information is found on Pg 155 of the ELH or more plainly in the Epic section of the DMG 3.5. This is correct and I retract my previous assertion. smiles