Undead Templates [Archive] - Wizards Community

Undead Templates [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ToastedAmphibian
09-04-07, 07:19 PM My character died.
Fellow pc likes fireball too much...

Anywho, my DM had the tomb denzens raise my PC as an undead critter. I was thinking that the change to a chaotic evil creature of the night that hungered for humanoid flesh wouldnt really be all that much of a change for my character, and he would still fit pretty well into teh party. My character was lvl 5 when he died, and at the end of that session teh highest level pc was lvl 8, so a +2 lvl adjustment wouldnt be such a bad thing. Taking into account teh fact that my characte is a low dex, high str human scout with 10 con, and that hes already decapitated an NPC commoner or two, would a switch to a Grave Touched Ghoul be worth the +2 LA?

The rest of the party includes a Paladin of Bane (Recently converted my pc to teh worship of bane) A tiefling wizard diviner that seems to think hes an evoker (Constantly screaming about fire, usually while hitting me in the back with a scorching ray or somethign because he dosnt have precise shot) A black dragon shaman, a true neutral dwarven cleric with a CHA of 6 (Currently the parties front man and leader) and some gnomish scion (Also neutral)

As far as i can tell, +2 nat armor and +4 dex shoudl do wonders for my pitiful AC (Low dex [10 or 12] + light armor = crap) The int, Cha, and Wis bonuses should help make me more reasonable, adn the fact that im undead should help the paladin keep me in-line. The str bonus is jsut awsome gravey when using a two handed reach weapon, and the addition of a bite attack lets me threaten areas around me even when using said reach weapon. (And it couts as a slashing/peircing weapon, meaning i can use it during a dervish if i ever get that far) Also, with a con of 10, lossing it really wont hurt my HP any.

Plus, on a side note, if teh dm tiers of my character, all he has to do is throw a disentigrate at it, and we can move on :}

So, is gravetouch ghoule balanced for a +2 Adjustment
and is it good for my char?
[The alternative was a corpse creature. Im trying to talk him out of taht and give me this instead]

Sorry for teh long post
(kinda makes battle fortitude a very case specific ability though :})
Meep326
09-06-07, 06:56 PM Can you post where these templates are? I'd kinda like to look at em. And the Bite counts as Slashing/Pericing/Bludgeoning, not sure if that effects dervish or not, hm... half-dragon dervish using natural weapons.
ToastedAmphibian
09-06-07, 09:54 PM Heh, my apologies. Grave touched ghoul is Libris Mortis. Corpse creature is BoVD. On a side note my DM started talking about soem BoVD errata that changed teh corpse creature, giving it a slam attack and damage reduction and other weird things... I think he might have dreamed it up or saw it somewhere else under a diffrent name, because what he is talking about dosnt seem to resemble what he told me it was. (Yes i called and asked,a nd he sent me to the book) Im pretty confused by the whole thing.

It probably dosnt matter now, he said no beause the "fluff" for grave touched ghoul was wrong. Apparently i was raised by a follower of Orkus and he said that woldnt work.

But if you still have any thoughts id like to hear them, just from a curiousty standpoint
Omega_Grey
09-07-07, 07:57 AM Honestly I think it is totally worth it. But I am curious as to why it wont work? The patron of the ghouls is a lackey to Orcus as is, why wouldnt a cultist of Orcus be able to bring you back?
Rustmonster
09-07-07, 09:04 AM Take Grave Touched Ghoul. All your current HD become d12, for a start. Also, for some reason, even though they are exactly the same as a ghoul, they have one less level adjustment, and you don't have to take those two crappy racial HD.
Empirate
09-07-07, 09:21 AM Being Undead alone is almost worth +2 LA. The higher level you get, the better Undead immunities become. Mind-affecting? Don't affect me, mister! Crit? Undead! Sneak Attack? Come on, now, that don't hurt at all! No Air? Poison? Polymorph? Blindness? Don't matter in the least!
Great stuff, to sum it all up. Also, the ability bonuses of a Gravetouched Ghoul are nothing to scoff at, not to mention d12 HD, natural armor, natural attack... just brilliant! Take it!
goawayugh
09-07-07, 11:22 AM Being Undead alone is almost worth +2 LA. The higher level you get, the better Undead immunities become. Mind-affecting? Don't affect me, mister! Crit? Undead! Sneak Attack? Come on, now, that don't hurt at all! No Air? Poison? Polymorph? Blindness? Don't matter in the least!

That is until you meet a disintegrate spell with your pathetically low Fort save...
TurnCloak_Kobold
09-07-07, 11:32 AM or a radiant servant of pelor. man one of those sees an undead walking after a party of adventurers hes gonna step in and turn you into a dust spot on the ground. of coarse your party might point at him for a little bit mouth agape that he just destroyed you with a snap but....it would be kinda funny. for a little bit anyway.
goawayugh
09-07-07, 11:36 AM or a radiant servant of pelor. man one of those sees an undead walking after a party of adventurers hes gonna step in and turn you into a dust spot on the ground. of coarse your party might point at him for a little bit mouth agape that he just destroyed you with a snap but....it would be kinda funny. for a little bit anyway.

lol, check the quotes section of my sig.
1 ton ghost
09-07-07, 12:58 PM (f)undead, extremely flexible, but dangerous?
"Dust pile"...that's assuming you've even been zeroed as "undead". Disguise is a veritable wellspring of plot hooks and safety measures, especially since most clerics do not get Spot as a class skill. just probing for evil isn't enough.
even if he lands that Inflict and is surprised it healed you, it could be construed as a fluke (unlikely) or you have Tomb-Tainted Soul (a practical and worthwhile feat)

can't Turn/Rebuke what isn't perceived as undead. Hats of Disguise, Invisibility, acting "alive" (surely a plus to Bluff), etc., should help safeguard you. don't make yourself a target.

if you are provoking a Detect Undead to begin w/, you've already failed and perhaps should be turned to ash.
Rustmonster
09-07-07, 04:00 PM Being Undead alone is almost worth +2 LA. The higher level you get, the better Undead immunities become. Mind-affecting? Don't affect me, mister! Crit? Undead! Sneak Attack? Come on, now, that don't hurt at all! No Air? Poison? Polymorph? Blindness? Don't matter in the least!
Great stuff, to sum it all up. Also, the ability bonuses of a Gravetouched Ghoul are nothing to scoff at, not to mention d12 HD, natural armor, natural attack... just brilliant! Take it!

I have no clue why people keep saying this. They are, IMHO, LA 0 unless they have special abilities.

Immune to poison? Positoxins. You're screwed. When they cause physical abiltiy damage, it's abiltiy DRAIN. And good luck making that fort save.

Immune to mind affecting? For every mind affecting spell, there is one spell made to do the same thing, but to undead. Immune to circle of death? Undeath to death does the same thing, but to undead. Immune to finger of death? With your fort save, disintigrate might as well be renamed "finger of dust". As well, bards can take a feat that can allow their abiltiies to work on you.

Immune sneak attack/ Crit? There is a spell, Spark of Life, that causes undead to lose their immunity to these things, plus more. And the sheer bulk of classes and items specially designed to cause extra damage to undead is staggering, more than making up for this immunity. Saying "undead get LA cause they are immune to sneak attack" is like saying "living creatures get LA because they are immune to Sacred Strike" (sacred purifier ability).

Need more proof? Instant destruction at o hp is murder at low levels. No CON gives you horrificly bad hp, especially when taking class levels as certain undead (only certain undead gain d12 when gaining a class level, such as mummified. Most have to take the reduced HD of the class). Every cleric/master of radiance/master of shrouds/sacred purifier/true necromancer/paladin/the list goes on and on, can turn or rebuke you easily (usually 50% of the time or more). By RAW, good clerics are bad at healing undead, so if you are a good undead cleric, you channel energy that HURTS YOU (one of the worst decisions that WotC made. I allow clerics of any alighnment to chose to channel negative or positive). You get one spell that can revive you from destruction, that works like raise dead, and it doesn't work if you've been turned to dust. There are A MILLION effects that turn undead to dust! If Ressurection or True Res are used on an undead, they become living, and since some undead creatures have no non-racial HD, it's a bit of a grey area what actually happens to you. Etc, Etc, Etc.

So ya see, undead are FAR from ANY LA. Yeah, if your DM still does things as if you were alive (uses poison, mind affecting spells, disease, etc) then you will be better than your live bretheren. But if he uses things that actually affect you (turning, holy water, positoxin if he feels sadistic, etc), it's still a challange, if not more so. If your DM tries using turn undead all the time on a living party, then I can just as easily say "all living creatures should have LA!"
ToastedAmphibian
09-07-07, 04:48 PM From Wikipedia
The King of Ghouls was once a vassal of Orcus who ruled his own layer of the Abyss until Yeenoghu invaded. Doresain was forced to swear fealty to the Gnoll Lord, who apparently still holds sway over the White Kingdom.[1]

It later says taht he was promoted to demi god. Is there some kind of animosity between orcus and Doresain?
Rustmonster
09-07-07, 06:28 PM It probably dosnt matter now, he said no beause the "fluff" for grave touched ghoul was wrong. Apparently i was raised by a follower of Orkus and he said that woldnt work.

Change the fluff. Simple.

Also, I'd just like to pipe in and add how sad it is that most of the undead in the MM are NOT templates. The whole concept of undead is that you once were something else. So why arn't they templates?
ToastedAmphibian
09-07-07, 06:47 PM Change the fluff. Simple.

Also, I'd just like to pipe in and add how sad it is that most of the undead in the MM are NOT templates. The whole concept of undead is that you once were something else. So why arn't they templates?

Ya, kinda retarded right? Ohwell, leaves more openings for other books. (Book of undead hill giants, bokk of undead trolls, boot of undead fire giants....)

Oh, and he said no to changeing the fluff, Thought i already said that. Sorry

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ToastedAmphibian 09-04-07, 07:19 PM	My character died. Fellow pc likes fireball too much... Anywho, my DM had the tomb denzens raise my PC as an undead critter. I was thinking that the change to a chaotic evil creature of the night that hungered for humanoid flesh wouldnt really be all that much of a change for my character, and he would still fit pretty well into teh party. My character was lvl 5 when he died, and at the end of that session teh highest level pc was lvl 8, so a +2 lvl adjustment wouldnt be such a bad thing. Taking into account teh fact that my characte is a low dex, high str human scout with 10 con, and that hes already decapitated an NPC commoner or two, would a switch to a Grave Touched Ghoul be worth the +2 LA? The rest of the party includes a Paladin of Bane (Recently converted my pc to teh worship of bane) A tiefling wizard diviner that seems to think hes an evoker (Constantly screaming about fire, usually while hitting me in the back with a scorching ray or somethign because he dosnt have precise shot) A black dragon shaman, a true neutral dwarven cleric with a CHA of 6 (Currently the parties front man and leader) and some gnomish scion (Also neutral) As far as i can tell, +2 nat armor and +4 dex shoudl do wonders for my pitiful AC (Low dex [10 or 12] + light armor = crap) The int, Cha, and Wis bonuses should help make me more reasonable, adn the fact that im undead should help the paladin keep me in-line. The str bonus is jsut awsome gravey when using a two handed reach weapon, and the addition of a bite attack lets me threaten areas around me even when using said reach weapon. (And it couts as a slashing/peircing weapon, meaning i can use it during a dervish if i ever get that far) Also, with a con of 10, lossing it really wont hurt my HP any. Plus, on a side note, if teh dm tiers of my character, all he has to do is throw a disentigrate at it, and we can move on :} So, is gravetouch ghoule balanced for a +2 Adjustment and is it good for my char? [The alternative was a corpse creature. Im trying to talk him out of taht and give me this instead] Sorry for teh long post (kinda makes battle fortitude a very case specific ability though :})
Meep326 09-06-07, 06:56 PM	Can you post where these templates are? I'd kinda like to look at em. And the Bite counts as Slashing/Pericing/Bludgeoning, not sure if that effects dervish or not, hm... half-dragon dervish using natural weapons.
ToastedAmphibian 09-06-07, 09:54 PM	Heh, my apologies. Grave touched ghoul is Libris Mortis. Corpse creature is BoVD. On a side note my DM started talking about soem BoVD errata that changed teh corpse creature, giving it a slam attack and damage reduction and other weird things... I think he might have dreamed it up or saw it somewhere else under a diffrent name, because what he is talking about dosnt seem to resemble what he told me it was. (Yes i called and asked,a nd he sent me to the book) Im pretty confused by the whole thing. It probably dosnt matter now, he said no beause the "fluff" for grave touched ghoul was wrong. Apparently i was raised by a follower of Orkus and he said that woldnt work. But if you still have any thoughts id like to hear them, just from a curiousty standpoint
Omega_Grey 09-07-07, 07:57 AM	Honestly I think it is totally worth it. But I am curious as to why it wont work? The patron of the ghouls is a lackey to Orcus as is, why wouldnt a cultist of Orcus be able to bring you back?
Rustmonster 09-07-07, 09:04 AM	Take Grave Touched Ghoul. All your current HD become d12, for a start. Also, for some reason, even though they are exactly the same as a ghoul, they have one less level adjustment, and you don't have to take those two crappy racial HD.
Empirate 09-07-07, 09:21 AM	Being Undead alone is almost worth +2 LA. The higher level you get, the better Undead immunities become. Mind-affecting? Don't affect me, mister! Crit? Undead! Sneak Attack? Come on, now, that don't hurt at all! No Air? Poison? Polymorph? Blindness? Don't matter in the least! Great stuff, to sum it all up. Also, the ability bonuses of a Gravetouched Ghoul are nothing to scoff at, not to mention d12 HD, natural armor, natural attack... just brilliant! Take it!
goawayugh 09-07-07, 11:22 AM	Being Undead alone is almost worth +2 LA. The higher level you get, the better Undead immunities become. Mind-affecting? Don't affect me, mister! Crit? Undead! Sneak Attack? Come on, now, that don't hurt at all! No Air? Poison? Polymorph? Blindness? Don't matter in the least! That is until you meet a disintegrate spell with your pathetically low Fort save...
TurnCloak_Kobold 09-07-07, 11:32 AM	or a radiant servant of pelor. man one of those sees an undead walking after a party of adventurers hes gonna step in and turn you into a dust spot on the ground. of coarse your party might point at him for a little bit mouth agape that he just destroyed you with a snap but....it would be kinda funny. for a little bit anyway.
goawayugh 09-07-07, 11:36 AM	or a radiant servant of pelor. man one of those sees an undead walking after a party of adventurers hes gonna step in and turn you into a dust spot on the ground. of coarse your party might point at him for a little bit mouth agape that he just destroyed you with a snap but....it would be kinda funny. for a little bit anyway. lol, check the quotes section of my sig.
1 ton ghost 09-07-07, 12:58 PM	(f)undead, extremely flexible, but dangerous? "Dust pile"...that's assuming you've even been zeroed as "undead". Disguise is a veritable wellspring of plot hooks and safety measures, especially since most clerics do not get Spot as a class skill. just probing for evil isn't enough. even if he lands that Inflict and is surprised it healed you, it could be construed as a fluke (unlikely) or you have Tomb-Tainted Soul (a practical and worthwhile feat) can't Turn/Rebuke what isn't perceived as undead. Hats of Disguise, Invisibility, acting "alive" (surely a plus to Bluff), etc., should help safeguard you. don't make yourself a target. if you are provoking a Detect Undead to begin w/, you've already failed and perhaps should be turned to ash.
Rustmonster 09-07-07, 04:00 PM	Being Undead alone is almost worth +2 LA. The higher level you get, the better Undead immunities become. Mind-affecting? Don't affect me, mister! Crit? Undead! Sneak Attack? Come on, now, that don't hurt at all! No Air? Poison? Polymorph? Blindness? Don't matter in the least! Great stuff, to sum it all up. Also, the ability bonuses of a Gravetouched Ghoul are nothing to scoff at, not to mention d12 HD, natural armor, natural attack... just brilliant! Take it! I have no clue why people keep saying this. They are, IMHO, LA 0 unless they have special abilities. Immune to poison? Positoxins. You're screwed. When they cause physical abiltiy damage, it's abiltiy DRAIN. And good luck making that fort save. Immune to mind affecting? For every mind affecting spell, there is one spell made to do the same thing, but to undead. Immune to circle of death? Undeath to death does the same thing, but to undead. Immune to finger of death? With your fort save, disintigrate might as well be renamed "finger of dust". As well, bards can take a feat that can allow their abiltiies to work on you. Immune sneak attack/ Crit? There is a spell, Spark of Life, that causes undead to lose their immunity to these things, plus more. And the sheer bulk of classes and items specially designed to cause extra damage to undead is staggering, more than making up for this immunity. Saying "undead get LA cause they are immune to sneak attack" is like saying "living creatures get LA because they are immune to Sacred Strike" (sacred purifier ability). Need more proof? Instant destruction at o hp is murder at low levels. No CON gives you horrificly bad hp, especially when taking class levels as certain undead (only certain undead gain d12 when gaining a class level, such as mummified. Most have to take the reduced HD of the class). Every cleric/master of radiance/master of shrouds/sacred purifier/true necromancer/paladin/the list goes on and on, can turn or rebuke you easily (usually 50% of the time or more). By RAW, good clerics are bad at healing undead, so if you are a good undead cleric, you channel energy that HURTS YOU (one of the worst decisions that WotC made. I allow clerics of any alighnment to chose to channel negative or positive). You get one spell that can revive you from destruction, that works like raise dead, and it doesn't work if you've been turned to dust. There are A MILLION effects that turn undead to dust! If Ressurection or True Res are used on an undead, they become living, and since some undead creatures have no non-racial HD, it's a bit of a grey area what actually happens to you. Etc, Etc, Etc. So ya see, undead are FAR from ANY LA. Yeah, if your DM still does things as if you were alive (uses poison, mind affecting spells, disease, etc) then you will be better than your live bretheren. But if he uses things that actually affect you (turning, holy water, positoxin if he feels sadistic, etc), it's still a challange, if not more so. If your DM tries using turn undead all the time on a living party, then I can just as easily say "all living creatures should have LA!"
ToastedAmphibian 09-07-07, 04:48 PM	From Wikipedia The King of Ghouls was once a vassal of Orcus who ruled his own layer of the Abyss until Yeenoghu invaded. Doresain was forced to swear fealty to the Gnoll Lord, who apparently still holds sway over the White Kingdom.[1] It later says taht he was promoted to demi god. Is there some kind of animosity between orcus and Doresain?
Rustmonster 09-07-07, 06:28 PM	It probably dosnt matter now, he said no beause the "fluff" for grave touched ghoul was wrong. Apparently i was raised by a follower of Orkus and he said that woldnt work. Change the fluff. Simple. Also, I'd just like to pipe in and add how sad it is that most of the undead in the MM are NOT templates. The whole concept of undead is that you once were something else. So why arn't they templates?
ToastedAmphibian 09-07-07, 06:47 PM	Change the fluff. Simple. Also, I'd just like to pipe in and add how sad it is that most of the undead in the MM are NOT templates. The whole concept of undead is that you once were something else. So why arn't they templates? Ya, kinda retarded right? Ohwell, leaves more openings for other books. (Book of undead hill giants, bokk of undead trolls, boot of undead fire giants....) Oh, and he said no to changeing the fluff, Thought i already said that. Sorry