Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rustmonster 05-06-07, 01:55 PM	Okey, I've started on trying to make an undead race. I havn't quite worked out all the fluff yet, and some of their abilities might change, but I wanted to see what others thought of the race's purly gameplay statistics I have come up with so far. The most important thing is that it is going to be undead and level adjustment 0. Traits: -Advance by level -Medium undead -Base speed 20ft -+2 Cha, -2 Wis -All class HD are converted to d12 -No constistution score (only roll 5 sets of 4d6 during stating) -Hurt by + energy, healed by - energy -All undead traits except: No proficiancies outside of their class proficiancies, cannot be turned into a living creature with Ressurection or true resurection, not immune to mind-affecting effects, not immune to physical ability damage. -Can be revived with revive dead spell from Libris Mortus -Turn resistance 2 (or 3) -Level adjustment: 0 I am not sure if these stats are over (or perhaps under) level adjustment 0. There are advantages and disadvantages to being an undead. It's my first atempt at making a race, so please give me any tips you may have. Thanks.
Magrus 05-06-07, 01:59 PM	It's not broken, I'd allow it. Whether it couldn't be stronger or not is something I'm unable to comment on effectively though. Nice work. Simple and something everyone could use.
Rustmonster 05-06-07, 02:01 PM	It's not broken, I'd allow it. Whether it couldn't be stronger or not is something I'm unable to comment on effectively though. Nice work. Simple and something everyone could use. Yay! Uplifting comment!
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-06-07, 11:47 PM	Okey, I've started on trying to make an undead race. I havn't quite worked out all the fluff yet, and some of their abilities might change, but I wanted to see what others thought of the race's purly gameplay statistics I have come up with so far. The most important thing is that it is going to be undead and level adjustment 0. Traits: -Advance by level -Medium undead -Base speed 20ft -+2 Cha, -2 Wis -All class HD are converted to d12 -No constistution score (only roll 5 sets of 4d6 during stating) -Hurt by + energy, healed by - energy -All undead traits except: No proficiancies outside of their class proficiancies, cannot be turned into a living creature with Ressurection or true resurection, not immune to mind-affecting effects, not immune to physical ability damage. -Can be revived with revive dead spell from Libris Mortus -Turn resistance 2 (or 3) -Level adjustment: 0 I am not sure if these stats are over (or perhaps under) level adjustment 0. There are advantages and disadvantages to being an undead. It's my first atempt at making a race, so please give me any tips you may have. Thanks. Far too powerful. Undead get sweeping immunities, easily worth LA +2. You should specify that they're not mindless, as most undead are.
Rerecros 05-07-07, 02:23 AM	All class HD are converted to d12 :D for a LA+0 race. No way. you might want to take a look at the living construct suptype http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_livingconstructsubtype&alpha=L it's a decent attept to make the construct type plable, and it could be modified for undead. removing undead immunity to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain and mind influncing effects would be a start. All those anti-undead spells out there might just balance out the rest of their immunities.
Nathreet 05-07-07, 02:47 AM	<cough> sorceror <cough> Might work with some fixing, though.
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 03:27 AM	for a LA+0 race. No way. It's standard for undead. They have no con score and can't go to neg hit points, getting absolutely destroyed at 0hp. Also, how are they a race? Do they occur naturaly and reproduce? Or are they kind of like the Elan, recruiting into their race? If they aren't inherently evil, I'd advise going with Deathless instead of Undead. And if they don't have crazy-assed powers like all other undead, I'd advise, for a LA+0 race... Medium Size Deathless: (Insert Deathless traits here), with the exception that [race name] can use the run action and are intelligent undead. Base Speed 30ft Aversion: Although not fueled by negative energy like the vile undead, the [race name] still give the creeps to the living and thus suffer a -4 penalty to their Charisma on all social interactions with living creatures. Favored Class: (Whichever you guess the fluff decides)
KillFrenzy 05-07-07, 03:44 AM	also while this may be abit off topic im pretty sure traited isnt a word and an undead race does sound like abit of a questionable concept if it were something like wraith or banshees it would make sense you should provide more fluff about their physical descriptions and other things
Rerecros 05-07-07, 03:47 AM	It's standard for undead. They have no con score and can't go to neg hit points, getting absolutely destroyed at 0hp. It's only standard for templates, ghouls who decide to become monks don't gain this benefit. I don't see a race that grants 3 times the normal Hit points to a wizard as LA+0. And there are feats undead can take to avoid being destroyed at 0 hp, and one to replace con with cha bonus for the purpose of bonus hit points. Though if he does choose to make "living undead" like I suggessted, they are going to have a con.
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 04:44 AM	It's only standard for templates, ghouls who decide to become monks don't gain this benefit. I don't see a race that grants 3 times the normal Hit points to a wizard as LA+0. And there are feats undead can take to avoid being destroyed at 0 hp, and one to replace con with cha bonus for the purpose of bonus hit points. All undead, no matter what the class they may have, roll d12 for HD. It's not much different from a fighter with 14 con. Though if he does choose to make "living undead" like I suggessted, they are going to have a con. Living undead are living people - in which case all those immunities will only raise the LA further.
Erato 05-07-07, 07:28 AM	Look at the necropolitan, and what it sacrifices to become undead. Granted, you’ll be destroyed at 0 hp, but all in all, being undead is an advantage even with the exceptions you’ve made for them. It generally not a good idea to make a race that’s all but useless for most things, but make up for it by being perfect for a select few classes. Mechanically, this race is a waste of time for things like barbarian, but it’s the obvious choice for a sorcerer. Bonus to the most important stat, and a penalty to one of the traditional sorcerer dump stats, with 12 hp at level 1, and average hp like a sorcerer with 18 con (average 2.5 + 4 vs. average 6.5) after that, and the ability to totally ignore your con and concentrate on other stats (even if you only roll 5 times, most sorcerers put their second or third highest stat in con, so it’s a statistic advantage). That being said, some official races (like half-orc and whisper gnome) are as narrowly focused as this, but they are generally considered to be among the worst races ever designed. Btw, how are they made physically? The lower base speed suggests a small size, but it doesn’t say.
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 08:50 AM	Even if an undead sorcerer boasts of his 12hp at lvl1, lets not forget that he also has only 1HD, which means that any cleric can, at the very least, rebuke him like a sucker and then simply kill him at his pleasure. Even a few applications of Disrupt Undead would take care of it. The undead type, on its own, without all the slapped-up stuff-draining abilities granted by their specific races, isn't that different from playing a construct race or ooze race or something of the sort - with the exception that spells that deal 1d6 points of damages to ooze or clerics that can rebuke constructs don't abound.
Rustmonster 05-07-07, 09:20 AM	Look at the necropolitan, and what it sacrifices to become undead. Granted, you’ll be destroyed at 0 hp, but all in all, being undead is an advantage even with the exceptions you’ve made for them. It generally not a good idea to make a race that’s all but useless for most things, but make up for it by being perfect for a select few classes. Mechanically, this race is a waste of time for things like barbarian, but it’s the obvious choice for a sorcerer. Bonus to the most important stat, and a penalty to one of the traditional sorcerer dump stats, with 12 hp at level 1, and average hp like a sorcerer with 18 con (average 2.5 + 4 vs. average 6.5) after that, and the ability to totally ignore your con and concentrate on other stats (even if you only roll 5 times, most sorcerers put their second or third highest stat in con, so it’s a statistic advantage). That being said, some official races (like half-orc and whisper gnome) are as narrowly focused as this, but they are generally considered to be among the worst races ever designed. Btw, how are they made physically? The lower base speed suggests a small size, but it doesn’t say. I can see what you mean about the sorcerer thing. I just wanted to show that they have a very strong spirit, with slightly dullened senses. I've come up with a little fluff for it so far: Fluff Mania! The Cursed The cursed are the children of human parents who made pact with evil entities and did not keep their end of the bargin. They die at the age of about 16 or 17 from causes unknown. If they have a strong soul, they rise from the dead five days later, not rotting in that time because of the curse. Other races can be targeted by the curse, but only humans have shown the ability to rise after their death. As for the topic of being overpowered, I'm not entirely sure that they are. Undead have immunities, but also many weaknesses, such as turning, destroyed at 0 hp, harder to revive, no con bonus to hp, social stigma, most commonly used healing moves hurt them, etc. I aslo took away some of their immunities for the race to try to make it even. As it stands, I wouldn't be suprised if they were under powered (aside from the ability increase thing). They are still in development, so I'd still apretiate comments. PS, what are deathless traits? I still want to use undead, but I'd like to hear them.
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 09:54 AM	PS, what are deathless traits? I still want to use undead, but I'd like to hear them. They're kind of like good undead, fueled by positive energy instead of negative energy. As far as I can tell, the only differences is that they aren't life-sucking, life-hating monsters and they are turned by evil clerics and rebuked by good clerics. There are two Deathless: the one from BoED and the one from Eberron. Since Eberron is 3.5, I'll consider it the most valid. Since other types and subtypes are on d20SRD, I guess posting this is alright. Deathless d12 HD No Con score Darkvision out to 60ft Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Not subject to sneak attacks, critical hits, non-lethal damage, or ability drain. Immune to damage to physical scores as well as fatigue and exhaustion. Unlike undead, deathless are subject to energy drain. Like living creatures, deathless are harmed by negative energy and healed by positive energy Immunity to any effect that requires a fortitude save, except for energy drain attacks (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless) Charisma modifies Concentration. No risk from massive damage but gets destroyed at 0hp Raise Dead or Reincarnate spells have no effect but Resurection and True Resurection can affect deathless if they are willing. These spells turn deathless back into living creatures. Evil clerics turn deathless and good clerics rebuke them. Spells like hallow and consecrate bolster deathless while unhallow and desacrate impair them. Deathless don't breathe, eat or sleep
Rerecros 05-07-07, 02:38 PM	All undead, no matter what the class they may have, roll d12 for HD. It's not much different from a fighter with 14 con. wrongo, this only granted by templated undead and racial hit die. I think the mummy lord has class levels in cleric, and they're d8s. Unless it specifically says they have an ability in their stats, they don't. like living constructs, living undead should have a con score, so they do have to make fort saves, and do get bonus hp. Social stigma is never a balancing racial factor, unless your DM purposely creates NPCs with closed minds. In eberron for example, deathless are venerated by elves and being one of the living dead is a great achievement. As well in Karnneth, it's undead armies are seen as patriotic martyrs. giving any race negative skills to social skills is a joke, and does nothing for balance. undead vulrability to positive energy is no different than living vulnrability to negative energy, DMs can have clerics perform the apropiate spells just as easily. For this race, you might want to make them able to be turned or rebuked, but never commanded or instantly destroyed. Also when they reach negative hitpoints they behave like a living construct, and aren't destroyed at -10 but "sleeping" and therefore vulrable to a coup de grais, ergo they can't be immune to critical hits.
Rustmonster 05-07-07, 07:18 PM	They're kind of like good undead, fueled by positive energy instead of negative energy. As far as I can tell, the only differences is that they aren't life-sucking, life-hating monsters and they are turned by evil clerics and rebuked by good clerics. There are two Deathless: the one from BoED and the one from Eberron. Since Eberron is 3.5, I'll consider it the most valid. Undead can be good and aren't always "life-sucking, life-hating monsters", at least in my opinion. I was going for a true undead in this race, because I think that it would be quite an interesting character choice, since they are significantly diffrent than a living creature.
Rustmonster 05-07-07, 07:25 PM	wrongo, this only granted by templated undead and racial hit die. I think the mummy lord has class levels in cleric, and they're d8s. Unless it specifically says they have an ability in their stats, they don't. like living constructs, living undead should have a con score, so they do have to make fort saves, and do get bonus hp. Social stigma is never a balancing racial factor, unless your DM purposely creates NPCs with closed minds. In eberron for example, deathless are venerated by elves and being one of the living dead is a great achievement. As well in Karnneth, it's undead armies are seen as patriotic martyrs. giving any race negative skills to social skills is a joke, and does nothing for balance. undead vulrability to positive energy is no different than living vulnrability to negative energy, DMs can have clerics perform the apropiate spells just as easily. For this race, you might want to make them able to be turned or rebuked, but never commanded or instantly destroyed. Also when they reach negative hitpoints they behave like a living construct, and aren't destroyed at -10 but "sleeping" and therefore vulrable to a coup de grais, ergo they can't be immune to critical hits. You don't seem to understand. I wanted them to be DEAD undead. Also, I did say specificly that d12's apply for all their hitdice. You bring up Eberron, which is only one of many campaign settings. I'm guessing most have the usual "eeeek it's undead!! EVIL!! KILL!!" with holier-than-though paladins screaming yippie kaiya as they smite without any thought that they might be good aligned. I also wanted them to be critical resistant, with the ability to be destroyed at 0hp, as that is how an undead works.
Guilty Gear 05-07-07, 07:47 PM	I've also been trying to think of making an undead with an LA of 0 or +1 at best, but it seems really hard to do so. I like what you've come up with and I hope to see this finalized in some way.
Rustmonster 05-07-07, 08:02 PM	I've also been trying to think of making an undead with an LA of 0 or +1 at best, but it seems really hard to do so. I like what you've come up with and I hope to see this finalized in some way. The biggest problem is deciding wether or not the undead traits actually even stack up to the living ones, because there are more drawbacks than I had expected. One interesting thing I noted in the libris mortis was that the necropolitan had 0 LA while retaining all undead traits. I'm not sure if this means that they are balanced with humanoids or not.
Guilty Gear 05-07-07, 08:03 PM	One thing though, it may be a LA 0, but you lose a level in the process of becoming one.
Rerecros 05-07-07, 08:34 PM	You don't seem to understand. I wanted them to be DEAD undead. good luck making them LA+0 :P Also, I did say specificly that d12's apply for all their hitdice. yes -All class HD are converted to d12 You bring up Eberron, which is only one of many campaign settings. I'm guessing most have the usual "eeeek it's undead!! EVIL!! KILL!!" with holier-than-though paladins screaming yippie kaiya as they smite without any thought that they might be good aligned. Ever hear of the silver flame? :fight!: My point was than campain worlds don't have to be homogenous. There are different culture taboos in all cultures, and undead may or may not recieve a warm welcoming from them consistently. I also wanted them to be critical resistant, with the ability to be destroyed at 0hp, as that is how an undead works. those are the 2 main things about undead that makes them impossible to play at LA+0 Undead can be good and aren't always "life-sucking, life-hating monsters", at least in my opinion. I was going for a true undead in this race, because I think that it would be quite an interesting character choice, since they are significantly diffrent than a living creature. Unfortunatley, that's WotC's point of veiw ergo most spells undead find useful have the evil subdescriptor, and all undead killing spells have a good subdescriptor. Thats why the deathless were made, they don't make a whole lot of sense, but they sidestep the issue of redesigning undead from the ground up to make them playable.
Rustmonster 05-07-07, 09:57 PM	To Rere specificly: 1) No, I have not heard of the silver flame. Could you explain what they are? 2) I can understand why you'd see immunity to criticals as a problem of making LA 0, although to me it doesn't seem like such a big deal that they don't every so often take a little more damage than normal. It would probably balance out with the low hp averages because of no con bonus. What I didn't understand: were you meaning that destruction at ohp was actually some sort of advantage to them? It removes the window most characters get between 0hp and -10hp, which is most certainly a disadvantage. Also, I'm not entirely sure if it was you or not who brought it up, but the reason I want to have them having always d12 as HD is because they don't have cons and start with no racial HD. That would mean a wizard of this race would have 4hp at level one, and would have about 42hp at level 20. That with the destruction at 0hp reduces their ability to live even further.
Rerecros 05-08-07, 12:29 AM	1) The Silver flame are evangelical closeminded "eeeek it's not human!! EVIL!! KILL!!" with holier-than-though fanatics in eberron, and they even have their own kingdom, Thrane, a theocracy with a figurehead monarchy. My point was that cultures are diverse in well designed campains, an undead would be killed on sight in thrane, but seen as a martyr in Karrnith. So poor social interaction with paticular groups is not a balancng issue unless the DM keeps all his NPCs with a similar mindset. 2) Immune to criticals is a big thing, have you never encountered a foe with a keen falchion before? Well they'd be immune to sneak attacks. I meant to say being destroyed at 0 hp is dificult for low level players, and it doesn't really balance anything so it should be removed. removing a stat is, never having make a fort save to a powerful ability, and no way will it be LA+0 without a con. Though, if you give the benfits of con to cha, and give them a -2 cha, it might balance. What I'm trying to help you build is a race thats balanced, and without a bunch of wierd weaknesses that'll **** off PCs.
Larz_Fang 05-08-07, 04:11 AM	This is quite similar to the Dead ones I was creating a while back. I got the idea from WoW's undead race, and it was like this (I may update this later if I forgot some changes): Dead ones Long time ago, in the long-forgotten days of the ancients, a group of left-alone zombies were given true intelligence and agile bodies by some unknown, nameless god of the dead. They were the first dead ones. Dead One Racial Traits > -2 Strength, - Constitution, +2 Intelligence +2 Charisma >Undead Traits (Also d12 HD, first hp result not automatically 12) >Medium Size >Sunlight Weakness: When exposed to natural sunlight or the daylight spell, dead ones take 2d6 extra damage and receive the following penalties: -4 Strength, -2 AC, -2 Attack, -4 Charisma >+3 to Intimidate when dealing with Humanoid creatures. >1 extra skill-based feat (Skill Focus, Alertness, Magical Aptitude and so forth.) >Automatic languages: Common. >Bonus Languages: All except Druidic. >Favored Class: Warlock >Level Adjustment: +0