Undead with class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Undead with class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kezarim
04-18-07, 11:24 AM Hi there!

I'm wondering if undead can advance "by character class" or not? From what i know, liches and vampires can advance by character class. So can any intelligent undead. Undead without a intelligence score cannot gain feats, skillpoints, and afaik class levels.

Everything clear so far: but what happenes if i cast "Awaken Undead" (Libris Mortis) on a Skeleton? It gains an intelligence score. The spell is permanent. So if i am right, this skeleton can now gain class levels.

Did i get it right or not?

If yes -> Hello, i'm the BBEG, and this is my army of Level 20 Winged Catfolk skeleton rangers with Dex 36. You die.
RobbyPants
04-18-07, 01:04 PM Well, it is true that you need a minimum Int 3 to gain class levels. As for skeletons and zombies, I'd have to read the Awaken Undead spell more closely. The problem with this is that the standard MM skeleton and zombie templates remove pretty much all features from the base race, and work off of racial hit dice, not class levels (thus a level 1 human commoner and a level 20 human wizard make identical skeletons). Perhaps the spell does something to change this.

Still, if you're not satisified, consider using the bone and corpse creature templates from the back of the BoVD. They need a small amount of updating to 3.5, but it's pretty straight forward.
Ovistavin
04-18-07, 03:01 PM Sure they can! They aren't going to regain the class levels they had while alive, but they can start a new class from scratch. Although with an intelligence between 5 and 10 I doubt any would be wizards or psions.
JellyPooga
04-18-07, 03:10 PM Well technically, the only undead that can advance by chacter class are those that say in the Advancement section of their description: 'By character level' or whatever, just like any monster. Other undead are not reccommended to have character levels.

Nothing to stop you houseruling it in though. I've always liked the idea of playing an Awakened Skeleton as a PC myself - not sure what the lvl adjustment would be though...
kaionon
04-18-07, 03:40 PM If your useing a skeleton from the awaken undead spell, I think it would be quite simmaler to the use of awakened animals. I am pritty sure it added the +2 HD like the awaken spell, so no other LA would really carry over since you would have 3 undead HD to deal with at the least.
Selgard
04-18-07, 03:46 PM even if you did the 1hd -> class level swap with an awakened undead, i'm not sure it would need any +LA.

the opportunity to Die Forever the first time you hit 0, and never be brought back, would be a -serious- hindrance to a skeleton.. far more so than any gain you might have from the DR and such.
kaionon
04-18-07, 04:12 PM Well Seldard the main problem is that you gain all those nice immunites with the undead type, immunity to all mind effects alone is nice (most enchanments, most illusions, fear, etc) and as a skeleton you allso have cold immunity and DR 5/bludgen.

I would think 3 undead HD would be worth it with the other bonuses, but having it for no LA or HD would be tough for balance even with the destroyed forever at 0 hp, the inverse magic healing compaired to living party members, and the chance to be turned/rebuked.

Necropolitans (sp?) From lib mortis have to take a level loss to (die and) gain the undead type.
Selgard
04-18-07, 04:18 PM I dunno.

the problems with armor and such (specially made- you don't have flesh afterall) combined with 1 good hit making your char sheet as good as scratch paper?

I doubt i would play one.. and i really doubt i would play one with a +LA.

(i've been tinkering with the idea of droppin the HD to 10 and adding con bonus, and fiddlin with the other stuff, similar to how they fiddled constructs around with the livin construct template.. but so far it's just mental fiddlin, rather than anything used or on paper)
Kemev
04-18-07, 04:26 PM An awakened skeleton would need some sort of level adjustment.
Consider the features:
- DR 5/bludgeoning
- Immunity to cold
- +2 Dex
- Some sort of natural armor bonus
- Claw attacks
- Improved Initiative as a bonus feat
- Standard undead immunities (which are alot)

The offsets are low intelligence, a charisma score of 1, and a wisdom score of 10, which eliminates any possibility of being a spellcaster.

Also, since skeleton is an acquired template, you can add it to a race like wood elf to get +2 str and dex, while not taking any special penalty since you won't have a constitution score and your int will be determined by the awaken spell.

At an eyeball, a LA +2 seems reasonable (though I'm sure it will elicit screams of bloody murder). I wouldn't worry about racial HD for the skeleton; as long as the base skeleton has 1 HD, just substitute the first class level for it.

Note #1: Libris Mortis has spells for restoring destroyed undead to existence.

Note #2: Winged skeletons can't usually fly.
Kezarim
04-18-07, 07:05 PM At Note #2: No, winged skeletons can't fly, but the winged template adds +4 DEX :)

As far as i know, the "awaken undead" spell doesn't add any Racial HD. Also, if you reanimate anything with no racial HD, you ressurect a skeleton with 1 HD, which is exchanged for the first class HD you recieve.

So awakened skeletons would indeed need a LA. Since their int is fixed at 4+W6, their WIS is 10 and their charisma is 1 (which makes a loss of -9 CHA, -3,5 INT), this offsets a LOT of their bonuses.

They have:
HD fixed at D12.
Immunities
+2 DEX
+2 NA for a medium creature
Claw Attacks
Improved Initiative
DR 5/bludgenoning
Immunity to cold

They loose:
-9 CHA
-3,5 INT
-die at 0 HP

You should also consider:
-Not being healed but harmed by positive energy can be a hindrance
-I'd houserule that a skeleton just doesn't NEED to eat and drink, but simple CAN't eat and drink, making it impossible to drink potions as well as poisons.
-you can be turned, destroyed, rebuked and controlled. easily.

I'd suggest a +1 or +2 LA. Probably the +1 one. But, as i come to think about it - since skeletons make poor spellcasters, the level loss won't hurt them that much, except for HD and BAB.

If i think about it, skeletons are really quite interesting charakters - and it'd probably be a whole barrel of fun playing an undead-themedparty :)
Thane26425
04-18-07, 08:50 PM The Libris Mortis has a good bit of information on which undead can take on class levels. The run of the mill like skeletons and zombies can't, but Mohgrs (sp?), vampires and liches can. You can also become a slightly less powerful good-aligned lich.
runestar
04-18-07, 09:14 PM Anything with an int score of at least 3 can theoretically take class lvs. Whether they actually do or not is then up to you.

Note that except for certain undead templates which explicitly change your HD to d12s, undead races do not automatically upgrade all future HD from class lvs to d12s. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of monk rolls 2d12+1d8 for its hp, not 3d12.:P
DragonicHeritage
04-19-07, 07:03 PM You could play as wights, there is an excerpt of libris mortis on this site with the full class, complete with adventure motivations.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kezarim 04-18-07, 11:24 AM	Hi there! I'm wondering if undead can advance "by character class" or not? From what i know, liches and vampires can advance by character class. So can any intelligent undead. Undead without a intelligence score cannot gain feats, skillpoints, and afaik class levels. Everything clear so far: but what happenes if i cast "Awaken Undead" (Libris Mortis) on a Skeleton? It gains an intelligence score. The spell is permanent. So if i am right, this skeleton can now gain class levels. Did i get it right or not? If yes -> Hello, i'm the BBEG, and this is my army of Level 20 Winged Catfolk skeleton rangers with Dex 36. You die.
RobbyPants 04-18-07, 01:04 PM	Well, it is true that you need a minimum Int 3 to gain class levels. As for skeletons and zombies, I'd have to read the Awaken Undead spell more closely. The problem with this is that the standard MM skeleton and zombie templates remove pretty much all features from the base race, and work off of racial hit dice, not class levels (thus a level 1 human commoner and a level 20 human wizard make identical skeletons). Perhaps the spell does something to change this. Still, if you're not satisified, consider using the bone and corpse creature templates from the back of the BoVD. They need a small amount of updating to 3.5, but it's pretty straight forward.
Ovistavin 04-18-07, 03:01 PM	Sure they can! They aren't going to regain the class levels they had while alive, but they can start a new class from scratch. Although with an intelligence between 5 and 10 I doubt any would be wizards or psions.
JellyPooga 04-18-07, 03:10 PM	Well technically, the only undead that can advance by chacter class are those that say in the Advancement section of their description: 'By character level' or whatever, just like any monster. Other undead are not reccommended to have character levels. Nothing to stop you houseruling it in though. I've always liked the idea of playing an Awakened Skeleton as a PC myself - not sure what the lvl adjustment would be though...
kaionon 04-18-07, 03:40 PM	If your useing a skeleton from the awaken undead spell, I think it would be quite simmaler to the use of awakened animals. I am pritty sure it added the +2 HD like the awaken spell, so no other LA would really carry over since you would have 3 undead HD to deal with at the least.
Selgard 04-18-07, 03:46 PM	even if you did the 1hd -> class level swap with an awakened undead, i'm not sure it would need any +LA. the opportunity to Die Forever the first time you hit 0, and never be brought back, would be a -serious- hindrance to a skeleton.. far more so than any gain you might have from the DR and such.
kaionon 04-18-07, 04:12 PM	Well Seldard the main problem is that you gain all those nice immunites with the undead type, immunity to all mind effects alone is nice (most enchanments, most illusions, fear, etc) and as a skeleton you allso have cold immunity and DR 5/bludgen. I would think 3 undead HD would be worth it with the other bonuses, but having it for no LA or HD would be tough for balance even with the destroyed forever at 0 hp, the inverse magic healing compaired to living party members, and the chance to be turned/rebuked. Necropolitans (sp?) From lib mortis have to take a level loss to (die and) gain the undead type.
Selgard 04-18-07, 04:18 PM	I dunno. the problems with armor and such (specially made- you don't have flesh afterall) combined with 1 good hit making your char sheet as good as scratch paper? I doubt i would play one.. and i really doubt i would play one with a +LA. (i've been tinkering with the idea of droppin the HD to 10 and adding con bonus, and fiddlin with the other stuff, similar to how they fiddled constructs around with the livin construct template.. but so far it's just mental fiddlin, rather than anything used or on paper)
Kemev 04-18-07, 04:26 PM	An awakened skeleton would need some sort of level adjustment. Consider the features: - DR 5/bludgeoning - Immunity to cold - +2 Dex - Some sort of natural armor bonus - Claw attacks - Improved Initiative as a bonus feat - Standard undead immunities (which are alot) The offsets are low intelligence, a charisma score of 1, and a wisdom score of 10, which eliminates any possibility of being a spellcaster. Also, since skeleton is an acquired template, you can add it to a race like wood elf to get +2 str and dex, while not taking any special penalty since you won't have a constitution score and your int will be determined by the awaken spell. At an eyeball, a LA +2 seems reasonable (though I'm sure it will elicit screams of bloody murder). I wouldn't worry about racial HD for the skeleton; as long as the base skeleton has 1 HD, just substitute the first class level for it. Note #1: Libris Mortis has spells for restoring destroyed undead to existence. Note #2: Winged skeletons can't usually fly.
Kezarim 04-18-07, 07:05 PM	At Note #2: No, winged skeletons can't fly, but the winged template adds +4 DEX :) As far as i know, the "awaken undead" spell doesn't add any Racial HD. Also, if you reanimate anything with no racial HD, you ressurect a skeleton with 1 HD, which is exchanged for the first class HD you recieve. So awakened skeletons would indeed need a LA. Since their int is fixed at 4+W6, their WIS is 10 and their charisma is 1 (which makes a loss of -9 CHA, -3,5 INT), this offsets a LOT of their bonuses. They have: HD fixed at D12. Immunities +2 DEX +2 NA for a medium creature Claw Attacks Improved Initiative DR 5/bludgenoning Immunity to cold They loose: -9 CHA -3,5 INT -die at 0 HP You should also consider: -Not being healed but harmed by positive energy can be a hindrance -I'd houserule that a skeleton just doesn't NEED to eat and drink, but simple CAN't eat and drink, making it impossible to drink potions as well as poisons. -you can be turned, destroyed, rebuked and controlled. easily. I'd suggest a +1 or +2 LA. Probably the +1 one. But, as i come to think about it - since skeletons make poor spellcasters, the level loss won't hurt them that much, except for HD and BAB. If i think about it, skeletons are really quite interesting charakters - and it'd probably be a whole barrel of fun playing an undead-themedparty :)
Thane26425 04-18-07, 08:50 PM	The Libris Mortis has a good bit of information on which undead can take on class levels. The run of the mill like skeletons and zombies can't, but Mohgrs (sp?), vampires and liches can. You can also become a slightly less powerful good-aligned lich.
runestar 04-18-07, 09:14 PM	Anything with an int score of at least 3 can theoretically take class lvs. Whether they actually do or not is then up to you. Note that except for certain undead templates which explicitly change your HD to d12s, undead races do not automatically upgrade all future HD from class lvs to d12s. For example, a ghoul with 1 lv of monk rolls 2d12+1d8 for its hp, not 3d12.:P
DragonicHeritage 04-19-07, 07:03 PM	You could play as wights, there is an excerpt of libris mortis on this site with the full class, complete with adventure motivations.