Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dirtymc11 01-03-08, 08:17 PM	Okay so does anyone think that the idea of a common language that everyone in the campaign speaks is a bad idea for realism? I have several 'trade languages' that players can take that permit them to be able to speak to most merchants and people who travel alot, but these are regional languages and are usually the language used by the most successful of the trader nations in that region. Every nation has its own language (language is one of the easiest ways to signify ethnic differences in the real world after all), but market places and diplomats tend to know more languages because their jobs require it. To me this makes for more believeable cultures if they go in and have to actually search out someone they can talk to. (it also is a good way to burn off excess money they may have by needing to hire a translater) I also do not have racial languages unless the race is a very homogenous group that lives in a very few geographically close areas. My halflings are the only ones that qualify. Am thinking about coming up with language trees of related languages so that maybe one could buy a few slots in a language and be able to get by with those who speak closely related languages. Not sure how to work out that in game dynamics, any suggestions? Or is this just a bad idea?
1 ton ghost 01-04-08, 01:10 PM	thank you. God, i've been saying this for years, Common is uncommly stupid and unrealistic. this has undoubtedly caused a bit more foresight during character developement in a great many of my Faerun campaigns as to assume everyone is fluent in the global "trade language" :rolleyes: makes little sense. even for a system of "yes's" and "no's", "1-10", simple communiques, it does not add up. given the role of millenia, the vast cultural pluralism, racial diversity, and a million other reasons, there would be more languages and signifiers of origin than less. they allude to regional languages here and there, but do not go in depth as to their primary applications. surely it's not just for fluff. keeping w/ the aegis of realism and language proficiencies it helps by: -making Bards and high Int characters more worthy rather than just "the storyteller/performer guy" and our mage. Diplomacy only goes so far if you are ignorant of the native tongue. -Decypher Script can become more valuable w/ varying DCs based on close languages. German, for me, was not terribly hard in high school as a great deal of it resembles English vocabulary. -translators, scribes and the like become worthwhile as you wisely mentioned prior. this can be a major plot hook. consider "Windtalkers", trying not to get screwed in the market given foreign ignorance, all manner of anomalies. -Sense Motive is more important when trying to grasp a language you do not know w/ varying DCs depending on complexity -encourages role-playing...for a change. i try and flesh out NPCs not only by attire, random NPC quirks, but accents. basically, these are cannibalized movie and TV personas that correspond to language/country in question. ex)"crazy adwar" from calimsham (Faerun's turkey/arabia basically) sounds a Hell of alot like "watto" from Star Wars when speaking Chondathan; PC english. -ranks upon leveling are more closely scrutinized and carefully chosen for practicality's sake. the list goes on. more reasons for than against.
The Ubbergeek 01-04-08, 02:59 PM	Irrealist, Common? Common is an old language of a great empire fallen or alive, or a lingua franca. What is irrealist in it? Unless you consider Old Greek, Latin, Arabic, Russian, English, Mandarin, Yoruba, etc... irrealist.
1 ton ghost 01-04-08, 03:34 PM	Irrealist, Common? Common is an old language of a great empire fallen or alive, or a lingua franca. What is irrealist in it? Unless you consider Old Greek, Latin, Arabic, Russian, English, Mandarin, Yoruba, etc... irrealist. "irrealist"? um, ok. "english mutha' fu-ka'! do you speak it?!" ;) sorry, had to go there... common is not relatable to the aforementioned ones you've listed. and the choice listed are "irrealist" as you say. and this is a human planet... add in a few millenia of progress and decay, a zillion other races and all manner of conflict, and you'd have one Hell of a tower of Babel. that is, less and less ppl that would speak "common", for lack of a better word, and more and more of their own tongue. just look how much english changed in a few centuries. saying common is the jump point for these other languages is ok, but not feasible. there's no Common alphabet. and we're talking about a planet here too. it was simply invented to make gaming easier, not more realistic which i find alot like spoon feeding a child. it's not some game breaking concept to actually have indigenous ppl speak their own language. a million other RPGs employ this universal concept, why is D&D different?
The Ubbergeek 01-04-08, 05:26 PM	Such big languages can travel far... And plurals 'commons' may exist, amongst big regions - like Eberron shown.
InkBlot 01-04-08, 06:16 PM	In Eberron, it actually makes sense for everybody in Khorvaire to speak the same language. It was one nation, Galifar, only a hundred years ago. However, that's just Common. Racial languages are still silly.
Salla 01-04-08, 07:43 PM	Realistic? Probably not. Game-enabling? Yes. Your PCs don't have to drop skill points every time they decide to go into a different section of the campaign world, using up a limited resource (skill points) just to be able to communicate with random people without having to use magic. Just because it's not realistic doesn't mean it's bad.
The_Great_Unwashed 01-04-08, 08:09 PM	I think what Ubbergeek is trying to say is that languages such as Greek and Latin were, in their time, effectivly "common" for large portions of the ancient world. That being said, I use regional languages quite extensively in my own homebrew. It helps create more believable cultures, as has been mentioned. However, there is still essentially "common" in the form of trade languages which happen to be the native tongue of the most influential nation in a given area, ie -> Rome and Latin.
Killy 01-04-08, 09:35 PM	I also found it unrealistic, but a Common language simplifies the game a lot. I took another approach to encourage language knowledge roleplaying, and it was to choose alphabets known. There are 6 basic alphabets: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Infernal, Celestial and Draconic (Druidic is special). So you can only know 1 alphabet from a language you know, you can read and write in a language you know wich uses an alphabet you also know, if you know a language but not its alphabet you can only speak that language, but not read or write. You can "buy" a new alphabet at 1st level using 4 skill points. Wizards and Bards can buy new alphabets for only 2 skill points, and Clerics can buy Infernal or Celestial for only 2 skill points too. The table to know wich alphabet is used by wich language is in the speak language skill description.
SearcherOmega 01-05-08, 01:34 AM	Although I do like splitting Common up, I recognize that creating too many languages makes speaking ability too weak. My solution was to split Common up into two large mega-languages, each of which covers about a half of the world. This gives all the flavour of exotic foreign culture with a head nod towards realism, rewards those who spend points in bonus languages, and at the same time makes just knowing one language so useful that it's not strictly needed. The problem with too many languages is that, as someone previously mentioned, it's crippling. You start with one language. If you have to spend 8 skill points to buy 4 languages cross-class just to go adventuring, that is quite frankly crippling. However, when half the people on the planet already speak the same language you do, the problem is not nearly as large. I would not advise splitting common into any further than three separate languages, and make sure each language is used in multiple lands. (This part would be quasi-realistic, incidentally; German is spoken in Austria, Germany, and Switzerland natively, English in The UK, America, Candada, and Australia natively, etc...) If you absolutely must make five, six, seven 'common' tongues in the world, please do your players a big favour and let them begin with more than 1+INT Bonus by default. Adventurers get around a lot, by default; let them know 3 + INT Bonus. The scholarly wizard knows practically all the human tongues of the world, and the average-intelligence fighter knows the language of his motherland and her neighbors. Does not strike me as terribly unlikely; many people in Europe of quite average intelligence grow up knowing two or three languages from a young age.
steamboat28 01-05-08, 07:44 AM	We tend to solve this problem by allowing oddities like "dialect" to be selected. When starting the game, we pick our Common + Racial + Int languages, and can choose dialects in those languages if we wish. In addition, we tend to group areas by language (racial or trade); instead of all humans speaking Common by default, some human areas close to elven cities speak dialects of Elven in everyday life, and their Common is a little broken because of it. Everybody *can* speak a dialect of Common, but that doesn't mean they speak it well. Same with the other racial languages. A new idea we're toying with is the concept of pidgin languages. For example, I'm playing a wizard who worships Odin--the first time we've strayed from the established D&D Pantheon in a loooooong time--and I chose, as my languages, Common (naturally), Draconic (again, naturally), Celestial (for my familiar and position in the temple), Giant and Elven (the other two major races from Norse mythos), and my DM is allowing me to create a dialect of common that combines Giant and Elven elements in it, so I can completely confound the other PC's when I speak to the Clerics on visits to the Temple of Odin. Furthermore, there are just toooo many ways around the linguistics problem for it not to affect players at all. Master Linguist, for example, is an amazing feat--even if nobody else in the party wants to deal with anything other than Common, one of the high-Int characters might take this feat to earn a free language every level. Language being one of my favorite areas of study outside the game, I tend to enforce its effects and limitations upon my players because I had too many of them using language-dependent spells on Elves that have never come in contact with the Common tongue (because of the setting we used), when they didn't speak Elven.
Hochiu 01-05-08, 10:04 AM	In my campaign, there isn't any particular "Common" language. If a traveling party decides to go far and wide across the continent, there are two distinct choices that one should take care to learn: the language of traders, and the language of the Orthodox Church. Most educated men and women are expected to at least know bits of the Orthodox language, and trading guilds and merchants everywhere came up with a quick way to deal with each other across language and cultural barriers. Joe commoner, on the other hand? I hope you know his local language, else you're not talking to him. Otherwise, I have regional languages as additional flavor, because my campaign setting is influenced heavily after the time when Latin had faded as the predominate language of anything other than the Church or of legal documents. It generally works in my setting because my players stay within specific political boundaries for the most part.
Kradlo 01-05-08, 12:18 PM	I use regional languages in my campaign, with no problems. Do note that my campaign gives extra skill points (8 extra at 1st level, 2 extra per level thereafter), and considers all skills except Speak Language to be class skills. So, the PCs in my campaign have ample points to invest in languages, if so desired. Thus far they've encountered speakers of Venturan (they're in the Venturi Republic, sort of an Italian/Sicilian culture), Pelathi (from the southern Kingdom of Pelath), Celtic and Norse. They'll encounter some speakers of Solacci and Nepthyn next. This is my preference, but I've no problem with those campaigns that use Common Tongue for human civilizations.
Dragoon_Warrior 01-05-08, 12:27 PM	I use 4 regional commens in my campaign and the racial languages make more sense when the races are not in contact with humans much. My elves, dwarves, even orcs have their own territories. I also have tribal languages for each barbarian tribe (totem variant).
1 ton ghost 01-05-08, 12:36 PM	these are (most of) all valid ideas, but i must stand by my conviction for my game(s). a global Common just can't cut it for me. even the Court language of French wasn't known across the whole planet. -some cultures are relatively isolated from one another, the language barrier is part of what preserves that mystique and helps foster the oral tradition. -by giving everyone Common, you rob land 'x' of a great deal of it's culturual identity too. if everyone spoke English, more and more countries would buy blue jeans, rock n' roll, and baseball, you know? it's the official business language of Earth now, yes? i don't suppose you guys have noticed all the rather timely and uncanny american trends happening in countries we trade w/ rampantly. now, language isn't everything, but it's the gateway to all communication. communication is the sharing of ideas/info/etc. that language is a bit of a filter for some of that info, and employing it long enough will color alot of your POVs and so forth. not a maxim, but very true. -increasing game-play can just as easilly be solved w/ the application of a little grey matter vs. spoon-feeding PCs flimsy mechanics. ie)think damn it. Comp.Lang could bring down an entire army if done right. hire a scribe and/or translators. actually make language slots worth something for a change.
Eldritch_Lord 01-05-08, 02:00 PM	I haven't really liked Common as it is presented, either, so here's my take on it. In the campaign I'm currently running, there are three "Common" languages: --High Human, which is sort of like Latin in the modern world in that some people everywhere understand and speak it but nobody uses it in day-to-day life, --Low Human, which is a local variation on High Human by country or city-state in the same way that Spanish, Italian, French, etc. are all classified as Romance languages, and --Common, which is an Esperanto-esque trade language that was developed by elves, dwarves, etc. and that everyone except humans speaks. (No nation calls the human languages "_____ Human," instead using a country name, so for example the nation of Kheffaros calls them High Khefferan and Low Khefferan, but I digress.) Humans by default know their two languages, and nonhumans know their own language and Common. The PCs generally make sure to know Common and High Human, but the local languages provide color in that PCs might be the only ones who can mediate disputes between halfling tribes and humans, locals might distrust PCs heard speaking "that stinkin' Elf language," and so on. As you might have guessed, humans are quite insular in this campaign, so the idea of a single language that everyone speaks doesn't really work. You can easily avoid the "we need to spend ranks on Speak Language or we're screwed" problem. Like I said above, as long as you know Common and High Human, you can get along pretty well; they aren't complete languages in and of themselves, but you can usually use them to find folks that do speak your language(s), as in this setting polyglot bards are by necessity common (but not Common ;)). Also, I've included the Master Linguist feat from Eberron, which gives you a free language known every level, so usually the bard or arcane caster of the party can help them get along.
dirtymc11 01-16-08, 02:47 PM	"In my campaign, there isn't any particular "Common" language. If a traveling party decides to go far and wide across the continent, there are two distinct choices that one should take care to learn: the language of traders, and the language of the Orthodox Church. Most educated men and women are expected to at least know bits of the Orthodox language, and trading guilds and merchants everywhere came up with a quick way to deal with each other across language and cultural barriers. Joe commoner, on the other hand? I hope you know his local language, else you're not talking to him. Otherwise, I have regional languages as additional flavor, because my campaign setting is influenced heavily after the time when Latin had faded as the predominate language of anything other than the Church or of legal documents. It generally works in my setting because my players stay within specific political boundaries for the most part." this is exactly the feel i am going for. Except for the fact that there is no religious organization that spreads much farther than the national level. Therefore trade languages are the way to go. Also an isolated tribe of hunter gatherers who dont do alot of trading is not going to have any languages besides their own and maybe other isolated tribes they come in contact with. THE 'SAVAGE' IN THE DEEP FORESTS IS NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY IMPETUS TO SPEND HIS VERY VALUABLE TIME TO LEARN A LANGUAGE OTHER THAN HIS OWN. IF the locals have no need for it there is absolutely tno logic in having them speak a trade language. I personally dont see any reason why I should make it any easier on my PC's by giving thenm extra skills they can spend on languages. Most of the time PC's stay within a very defined area anyway. Had one campaign where one of my characters spent all his points on skills and only took his native language. He spent several levels not being allowed to speak to his fellow gamers. This created interesting scenarios for intrigue and also great role playing opps. to this day he says that he has never had a char he felt more connected to because he had to work so hard at it. Also he didnt automatically take a language that would help him communicate with everyone. He held back spending the next slot he got and spent an entire level learning the language from the party member he was closest to. Thus he ended up speaking a language that still only allowed him to communicate with one member of the party. This was good roleplaying on his part and I rewarded him for playing well. That is high praise for me. I accom[plished my job of making him and the others enjoy thier time and also really get into ROLE PLAYING
Hochiu 01-17-08, 11:26 AM	I'm also not a fan of the fact that every adventurer knows from two to four distinct languages, some of them not even being spoken by mortal practicioners, but instead spoken by extraplanar entities that the character may have absoltuely no contact with later. The language rules are pretty annoying, sometimes, and I'm always on the look out for them to be changed. Any ideas on that matter?
Firaeki 01-17-08, 11:58 AM	Well, from my personal idea bank, I use regional languages aswell. However, there is a "Common" language (though you have to learn it), but it comes in multiple dialects, which basically is used to represent cultural variety with very little mechanics to it. I'd just come up with a few things that replace words, like how flat and apartment are different words for the same thing and things like that. Nothing too difficult. And as for extraplanar tongues? Well, I rule that the languages possess a quality mortals (with the exception of planetouched beings/half-outsiders/etc of the right kind) are unable to make with their limited vocal capacity without special training from a creature that DOES have the quality (A succubus for abyssal, a salamander for ignan, etc.) as well as the 2 skill points used to read and write the language. That way, languages go like this. An elf from some place we'll call Elmardin as an example has an intelligence of 12. He automatically knows elmardinil and takes the common tongue, with an elmardin dialect and accent. The DM decides the accent strongly resembles a posh english accent, and that the elf refers to a few things differently, as well as using elmardinil in place of words for titles or pronouns because of his dialect. Later on, the elf decides to spend 4 skill points learning from a tiefling in the party. He decides to learn infernal (since the tiefling was born with the language and the ability to pronounce it naturally) as well as a human language called burret. The DM allows this and the elf learns them. The DM has decided burret sounds similar to a mixture of french letters and using the chinese system of making the tone have a hand in the word's meaning, and with the elmardinil accent applied this makes the elf have difficulty saying certain words, which make them harder to understand. In addition, the infernal tongue is almost impossible for the elf to learn, and once he obtains the ability to speak it well enough, his accent is thick and he often must substitute words for words in other languages, hoping they make sense to the listener.
Red_Wizards_Rock 01-17-08, 01:42 PM	Actually English would be common, because everyone is bringing Real Life views into this so will I. Common is the Global Language of D&D that is agreeable, but English is the recognized International language of the Real Life World, Earth. Over half of the world uses English more than there own language. From below and on this is all said from Forgotten Realms views, and not from other settings such as Darksun, Dragonlance or Planar type games. Since these worlds have have either less humans or more of other random races with there own countries (Dragonlance = Minotaurs with there own country) or Planar languages. Which means Common is English that is the real life speaking there, but the Forgotten Realms are just different dialicts, and not different languages so one dialict may be hard to understand, but good enough for passing, selling and ordering drinks. The real problem is when you goto an Elven, Dwarf, Draconic or in some random case Goblin town, city, ancient temple or hole in the ground. The only languages a player need take besides common is other races. The extra dialicts are used slightly to make dealing with NPCs easier, but not by much, because it is not a totally different language. My answer is if you want your players to take more languages with there skill points than do a Planar game.
CryoSilver 01-17-08, 03:05 PM	A simple thing to change would be to make Common a very limited language. COmmon would go as far as "I am (name) and I need a room for the night, and directions to the market," but not able to handle something like "I think the sociological ramifications of a caste system are inherently negative in that they tend to stratify society in a way that impedes the free flow of ideas." Turn Common into a very basic "backup language" that will let you survive, but not have a coversation.
dirtymc11 01-17-08, 03:08 PM	Actually English would be common, because everyone is bringing Real Life views into this so will I. Common is the Global Language of D&D that is agreeable, but English is the recognized International language of the Real Life World, Earth. Over half of the world uses English more than there own language. the basic mistake here is assuming that there was at some point one language whose practitioners were either politically dominant and/or economically dominant over the vast majority of the other nations of the world. In such a scenario (like RL where England and now her bastard daughter the US has enjoyed nearly 300 years of being a very dominant power in the world) then it becomes expedient to know the dominant tongue. however even in the real world we have exceptions (for example french is still the 'official' language used by diplomats and such). without such a power then 'common' becomes silly and unlikely. I do however have one common script used across all of the civilized nations. This reflects the fact that the origin of writing is far less common than the origin of language itself (it only happened independantly maybe 4 or 5 times on RL earth).
Red_Wizards_Rock 01-17-08, 05:48 PM	the basic mistake here is assuming that there was at some point one language whose practitioners were either politically dominant and/or economically dominant over the vast majority of the other nations of the world. In such a scenario (like RL where England and now her bastard daughter the US has enjoyed nearly 300 years of being a very dominant power in the world) then it becomes expedient to know the dominant tongue. however even in the real world we have exceptions (for example french is still the 'official' language used by diplomats and such). without such a power then 'common' becomes silly and unlikely. I do however have one common script used across all of the civilized nations. This reflects the fact that the origin of writing is far less common than the origin of language itself (it only happened independantly maybe 4 or 5 times on RL earth). Sounds like sour grapes for no reason. Your language is True English you have the Dominant Language. I'm not sure where you are getting any idea that french is a dominant language is anyway, and rather shocked that an Englishmen would say so. Really I'm not sure where you get the idea French is the Diplomats Language. I'd think you'd of learnt that in school or walking outside, but go ahead look it up English is the official Language of the world so that would make it common. Dialicts British English is True English American English is a Dialict of British English We can both talk to each other and talk about Apes of the World and Third World Countries.
1 ton ghost 01-18-08, 03:49 PM	um, first English isn't "Common". it is the business language of our planet and rather prevalent, but it is not the default. commerce and national culture are 2 radically seperate notions and have been demoted to a footnote in this thread tragically enough, though they have immense bearing here. i'm sure you've noted the racial tension between the latino community and largely black and white american citizens in the southern states. i'm just talking about language too, not immigration policy. refusal to fall in line and speak English and all that. a great many (not all) are clinging to their home cultural language of Spanish, though incredibly prolific throughout the world, hugely in fact, is not "the business language" of earth. this causes failure to assimilate. keep your Spanish, teach it to your kids (a good idea), but being a mexican that happens to "live in america" vs. a man/woman moving from a land to another and adopting the dominate language seems like a no-brainer. in the words of marcellus wallace, "fu-k pride. it only hurts, it never helps." ex) my great grandfather was to be a conscript in the Central Powers (WWI) but chose to draft dodge basically, came to america and busted ass to learn English as quickly as possible. wanted a job, family, and to "fit in", etc. holy sh-t, it worked! his kids grew up, had formal schooling, families of their own, and bla bla bla...i mean, i'm here now typing this, yes? now, alot immigrants are thriving on the tolerances/indulgences of liberal guilt and a pseudo cannibalized culture. american culture is a melange of many nationalities and races, that's why our gene pool is the best, it's so diverse and ecclectic. but, it's "American" somehow. but refusing to even learn the native tongue is stupid. Hell, we almost chose French over English. "when in rome"...exists for a reason. if everyone does their own thing, no collective effort will result in great works as we'll all be squabbling over foolish details. african american, asian american, mexican american...wtf ever. try just "american". race is irrelevant when we're all human. imagine just the language nightmare w/ elves and dwarves in 21st century earth. melting pot, or "salad bowl" as they said in high school...doesn't matter, language is the root and i'm rambling. sorry. indigenous ppl of land 'x' in campaign setting 'y' would indeed have their own language, both seperate and distinct of the "Common" to which you speak. there would be no Common that is. ppl like to stick to their guns and remain seperate, form arbitrary boundries, govern themselves, etc. this is why countries exist, not a planetary empire (could, maybe work, not likely). certain tongues would dominate over time, but in proto-renaissance fantasy w/ so many races, mysticism, magic and a million independent variables, language would be more convuluted and diverse than overly-simplified and universal. it would be like the aforementioned immigation problem w/ language here in the States, but far worse. everyone wanting a piece of the pie but no one willing to make any concessions. fear overriding reason/hope. i loathe Common as the notion is terribly fake and fabricated but exists only to facilitate game play. but, my friends and i are adults, ie)we can handle a few minor details apart from the staggering statistics of spell FX, init, weather, etc... so we take a rather simple mechanic, like earthen languages, and apply it to Faerun (my campaign of choice). IMO, there is no Common and to assume national languages are dialects is, well, it's preposterous if you can excuse my indignation. nothing personal. just logic kicking "ease of game play" in the ass. if they were dialects, then how can they have so many different alphabets? Red Wizard (i gotta' go here), perfect example; Thay (Faerun). this may be a dialect of Mulhourand's version of Mulani, but for some reason, they use the Infernal alphabet in Thay vs. Celestial in the parent country of origin. weird, right? same lanuage though. dialect argument is sound, but odd i guess in this case. now, most human languages use the Thorass alphabet, but not Thay. i'm sure there are a few that use Dethek and Espruar as well, maybe even Draconic. different alphabet surely means different language, not diablect. once again, sorry for the length. brevity truely is the soul of wit, but it's been a long work day...
dirtymc11 01-20-08, 10:08 PM	Okay so here is what I really want to get feedback and help on : I want to create language trees that make it easier for people to understand related languages. Here is an example from my homebrew : There was a single language of humans that existed about 5,000 years ago (all of the humans of this continent are non-aboriginals who came from a refugee population of another continent). The original language is no longer spoken by anyone but there are 6 distinct language groups spoken by humans today with over 100 actual distinct languages spoken. the language groups are broken down into the following groupings. All the languages in each group are related to one another and have varying degrees of similarity in loan words, grammar and structure. (much like english, french spanish, german, italian are all Indo-European languages.) group 1) Korshan : This language group contains 20 distinct languages and takes its name from the Korshan language which is the most dominant in the areas it is spoken. starting from the eastern coast and covering the southern half of the Mudiri peninsula. These languages are characterized by harsh and emphatic consonants and emphasis on the terminating syllables. This group is also the least influenced by the VorsTel people and so therefore it lacks most of the vorsTel loan words that other groups have. There is however alot of loan words taken from the Kandorian group and the Drufkan group. These languages have their own distinct vocabulary for domesticated crops. This indicates that they most likely invented agriculture and then passed that knowledge on to other human groups. The further west one goes the more the languages encountered contain signs of VorsTel loan words. Group 2) Drufkan : this language contains 3 distinct languages but each of the 84 known tribes has its own dialect. this language is spoken primarily in the Dryllar desert region and in the trading towns on the periphery of the desert. This group has no loan words from the VorsTel language at all. This indicates lack of contact with the VorsTel (which shows in their culture, religion and building styles complete lack of such influences). The similarities between Drufkan languages and Korshan languages seems to indicate that they were probably part of the same proto-language from which the Drufkan languages diverged before the domestication of cattle (as most of their words for such animals are derived from the Kandorian language group). They possess an incredible amount of loan words from other Human languages. Group 3) Kandorian : This group contains 24 distinct languages and takes its name from the Kandorian language. It is spoken in the upper Northern version of the Mudiri peninsula. Characterized by borrowing heavily from Vorstel languages. Were probably part of the same proto language as the Numerian group and split off shortly after the invention of agriculture. Group 4 : Numerian : This group of 15 languages is spoken to the west of the kandorian group and is characterized by being almost a blending of Human and VorsTel languages. Almost all of its vocabulary involving agriculture and place names is Vorstel in character indicating that they may at one point have been dominated by the VorsTel directly. Group 5 : Animi : this group of over 35 languages is spoken by the Animi tribes of the Plains. This 'primitive' group has alot of similar words used to refer to cultivated crops in Kandorian languages but none of them actually refer to cultivated plants in these languages. It appears that the animi groups had knowledge of agriculture and were linked to kandorian groups and then their cultures abandoned or lost this knowledge. Recently agriculture has been re-introduced by Kandorian groups but only in a very few tribes. Animi Subgroup : Maligorian : This language is spoken by the people of maligor on the Island of the 7 sisters. It is recognizeable as being derived (although there is a long period of seperation) from Animi Tribes (especially to that spoken by the Tribes who venerate the Boar). Scholars believe that the Maligorians are immigrants to the Island from the Mainland. Group 6 : Oredolean : this group appears to be a completely unrelated group of languages and does not appear to derive from the proto- language spoken by the other 5 groups. They only are spoken on the island known as the 7 sisters and have not had much contact with the mainland groups. There is no relation at all between the languages of humans spoken on the Mainland and the Oredolean language. This (along with the fact that none of the other reacial languages of the island bear a relation to their mainland racial languages) leads scholars to believe that the inhabitants of the 7 sisters (except the Maligorians) are indigenous to their Island home and never had cultural or linguistic ties with the Mainland. Oredolean sub-group 1 : Ravidihan : This language is obviously an Oredolean derived language but it has a very strong overlay from The Recian language, due to their long history together. Okay so How would I make some sort of skill set where someone could take slots allowing them to 'get by' using related languages? Is this feasible or not?
hecknoshow 01-26-08, 08:04 AM	Alot of good arguments here. The main problem D&d has with learning new skils is its linear approach to character progression. Meaning that all arguments about realism are a little pointless when your using a level based system. But enough about that. My approach to languages was based on region in the main. Characters got a list of bonus languages based on region (what do my neighbours speak) of origion rather than race. Racial languages were basicaly ancient languages used by the individual races millenia ago but don't see much use in the 'modern' world. Every one gets the local trade tounge for free which is usable in larger areas than their native language but is usless for most things (no diplomacy, perform or such skills, bluff is still good for small simple things). Since its a cc skill I made half a rank in a skill mean you could speak it but badly (similar use to the trade tongues). Also after a little play testing (short campaign) I realised I had to give more bonus points for languages at character creation. Wish I'd thought of language groups, stroke of geniuse there.
Dog_O_War 01-26-08, 09:56 AM	I don't use common, because of the many reasons already mentioned in this thread. I do divide the various human languages by their empires and the regions they influence. If you are a race like elf (which in my setting has a few possible variants as well) you'd get (for example) high elven, and possibly hallisite or tearamic as your starting language(s). Bonus languages are pulled from the regions and monsters of the surrounding area. Example again would be that said elf could get (hallisite or tearamic), dwarven, draconic, celestial, goblin, gnollish, sylvan, or giant because these are the races that surround their area. Buying languages with skill points is an entirely different matter. You could get any language you desire through the expendature of skill points, but if you did this after first I'd probably RP the finding of a teacher or something. This is how I do it. But be sure to tell your players of how it is to be before the game starts though, just so they all have atleast one language in "common"!
SilverFoxKnows 01-26-08, 11:26 AM	In my homebrew world "Common" is the regional tongue of the largest, second oldest Human nation. For 1000 years they held over half the continent. And for several hundred years they held close to 3/4 of it. There are other regional Human tongues but almost everybody can speak at least of little of their language. Even the non-Humans know how to speak a little as their kingdoms border "the Old Empire" in several places.
CryoSilver 01-26-08, 12:17 PM	Okay so here is what I really want to get feedback and help on : I want to create language trees that make it easier for people to understand related languages. Make "Speak Language" an actual skill, not just something you buy, and then *poof* you speak the language. Maybe: 0 ranks: it's gibberish to you. 1-4 ranks: you can buy food, ask for directions, etc (DC 12 check) 5-8 ranks: you can carry on a conversation (DC 15 check) 9+ ranks: you are fluent as a native speaker (DC 20 check) Languages in the same group as the one you have ranks in are spoken as though you had 5 fewer ranks. Feel free to hand out ranks in languages at the beginning of the game, and feel free to allow the normal skill rank cap to be broken (you shouldn't need to be an epic warrior to have a conversation with someone in a foreign language).
1 ton ghost 01-26-08, 02:36 PM	Make "Speak Language" an actual skill, not just something you buy, and then *poof* you speak the language. Maybe: 0 ranks: it's gibberish to you. 1-4 ranks: you can buy food, ask for directions, etc (DC 12 check) 5-8 ranks: you can carry on a conversation (DC 15 check) 9+ ranks: you are fluent as a native speaker (DC 20 check) Languages in the same group as the one you have ranks in are spoken as though you had 5 fewer ranks. Feel free to hand out ranks in languages at the beginning of the game, and feel free to allow the normal skill rank cap to be broken (you shouldn't need to be an epic warrior to have a conversation with someone in a foreign language). nice. this is not exactly revolutionary thinking, but a breath of fresh air nonetheless. that is, i encourage realism in most regards providing it doesn't seriously lag game time... they used this system in Shadowrun to some acclaim. the only other means is a Sense Motive vs. the communicator of an unknown tongue to see if you get the gyst. more complex, higher DC. of course, if we need to use more ranks, than we'd need to assign more ranks/lvl (or something) to, and only to language development. perhaps make it more contingent on character Int or something. any ideas? i never did like the system or mode you expressed so simply in that, "2 ranks, poof! how learned you have become." it would have to be spelled out in advance that your intent to learn language 'x' is starting...and actually hold PCs accountable to that end. ie)oh, um, i would rather spend those 2 ranks on Spot cuz' we keep getting jumped instead of following through on my committment to finish my studies in Draconic." no, stick to your guns.
CryoSilver 01-28-08, 03:54 PM	Normally, you get one language per point of Int bonus. Switch that up to 1 rank per/level (4 at first level) per point of Int modifier that can ONLY be spent on learning languages. Allowing taking ten on any language in which one has 5 or more ranks. Revolutionary? As 1 ton ghost said, no. But it's simple, effective and more realistic, and once you've got 5-6 ranks, and don't need to roll for most stuff anymore, it doesn't really slow the game down.