~Vampires- The mistake in the MM? [Archive] - Wizards Community

~Vampires- The mistake in the MM? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rice830
05-18-07, 12:50 AM ~On pg. 251 in the Monster Manual there are two examples of Vampires, a fighter and a monk/ shadowdancer. Fair enough.

~The Fighter example however has a level adjustment of +5, while the other vampire adn template say that it's +8.

~Now, I can understand that there is probably a mistake, but I like the idea of a lesser Vampire. So I believe I'll make one.

~Lesser Vampire
-Same statistics as vampire, except as follows:
-Natural Armor: +4
-They do not possess the Dominate Ability, it is replaced with Charm Person.
-They do not possess the Create Spawn ability.
-Energy Drain drops to One negative level lost.
-DR 5/ magic and silver.
-Fast Healing changes a little as well. Lesser Vampires have Fast Healing 1 while not in the sunlight, and Fast Healing 5 while in a Coffin prepared ahead of time for them.
-Ability Adjustments: Str +4, Dex+4, Cha +2
-Lesser Vampires gain skill bonuses to the same skills, but only +4.
-Bonus feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes.

~I believe this is around a +4-6 LA, so any confirmation would help. I got most of the idea from the Vampire Spawn.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-18-07, 01:03 AM To be honest, if you're trying to do a simpler vampire template then it's probably a good idea to get rid of all of the weird and situational abilities and traits too.

In other words, dump things like Children of the Night and Spider Climb and perhaps even Alternate Form (or reduce it to one alternate form), but also get rid of some of the strange weaknesses like the inability to cross running water or enter a home without permission.

Tossing these things would make it much easier to reduce the LA of the template.
StrahdVonZarovich
05-18-07, 02:55 AM What would be the LA of a vampire-lord btw, since its 3.0 based?
Morwen
05-18-07, 08:26 AM What would be the LA of a vampire-lord btw, since its 3.0 based?

I think I remember someone calling it an LA +12 somewhere on these boards..
Ace_of_time
05-18-07, 10:48 PM The dragon vamps only has +5 and it can go through water and not have to worry about holy symbols and the like.
Rechan
05-19-07, 02:47 AM In other words, dump things like Children of the Night and Spider Climb and perhaps even Alternate Form (or reduce it to one alternate form), but also get rid of some of the strange weaknesses like the inability to cross running water or enter a home without permission.

Tossing these things would make it much easier to reduce the LA of the template.

And while you're at it why don't you just toss out the whole drinking blood thing and the sunlight thing. Those are way too limiting too. :rolleyes:

The bulk of the vampire's LA boost is not related to little frill powers like Spiderclimb and Children of the Night. Changing into a dire wolf is nothing.

It comes from the stat boosts, the ability to create Spawn, bestow negative levels, fast healing, and most significantly the ability to Dominate Person at will.

Essentially, the vampire in the MM is the mythological vampire. Bram Stoker's, and a cobbling together of other folklore. The Vampire having its little things like Children of the Night are the same reason that Liches have plycharies. While D&D is not mythology heavy, it's still magical and not completely modern in monster conception.

If you were going to make a Hollywood vampire, there really is little reason to have them vulnurable to sunlight or just wooden stakes because those are also attributed to the same folklore as the other trappings. After all, no other undead have such weaknesses. Really, if you stripped all the weaknesses and frill powers away from Vampires, they would just be intelligent undead that can make more of themselves by drinking blood. At its root, a vampire is merely an intelligent, undead parasite. So why keep the rest?

Also, reducing their limits makes them more powerful. A vampire that can cross running water and enter into homes uninvited is a much stronger vampire than one who is limited and forced to resort to cunning charm.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-19-07, 04:32 AM Reducing the limits doesn't really end up making them more powerful as far as LA goes because LA assumes best-case scenarios (in other words, that PCs will be able to work around the limits). It does make the template a lot less awkward to deal with.

Moreover, tossing out Children of the Night and Alternate Form makes things far *simpler* to work with. Summoning masses of mooks just bogs down combat for a PC party, and Alternate Form with a whole range of forms means that the character needs a lot of different stat blocks for each form. Something like Con drain from blood drinking or bestowing negative levels with a slam attack is comparatively straightforward.
CaoSlayer
05-19-07, 05:45 AM I always have through of being a vampire much more related to being a curse than a real undead.
Rechan
05-19-07, 01:30 PM Reducing the limits doesn't really end up making them more powerful as far as LA goes because LA assumes best-case scenarios (in other words, that PCs will be able to work around the limits). It does make the template a lot less awkward to deal with.

Moreover, tossing out Children of the Night and Alternate Form makes things far *simpler* to work with. Summoning masses of mooks just bogs down combat for a PC party, and Alternate Form with a whole range of forms means that the character needs a lot of different stat blocks for each form. Something like Con drain from blood drinking or bestowing negative levels with a slam attack is comparatively straightforward.

Ease of play and less awkward does not effect the LA. Heaping the limits on the PC for choosing to be a vampire is par the course - it's useful for the DM in fact, if they're clever enough to engineer a situation so that the PC has to think their way out of it.

If you're afraid of the LA, strip out the Dominate Person power. It's used at will.
Yadot
05-19-07, 01:32 PM I always have through of being a vampire much more related to being a curse than a real undead.
In the original legends vampires were demon-possesed dead bodies. But if DnD just stuck to mythology elves would be 3 feet tall and drow metal smiths.
StrahdVonZarovich
05-24-07, 05:59 AM If you're afraid of the LA, strip out the Dominate Person power. It's used at will.

I'm not too sure about it myself. But it was never stated CLEARLY that it could be used at will. I mean where is it written?!
jaelis
05-24-07, 09:10 AM I'm not too sure about it myself. But it was never stated CLEARLY that it could be used at will. I mean where is it written?!

It says it is like a gaze attack, which is at will. And in general, if a creature has an ability that doesn't have a stated limit, then it is usable at will.
Knightblde
05-24-07, 09:26 AM Libiris Mortis has Vampire as an undead race. If you want to give creatures a weaker version, just pick a level of the race and add all the abilities of that level and lower.

Simple and sweet, and scaled from LA1 to LA8
Lionhearted
05-24-07, 05:44 PM I always have through of being a vampire much more related to being a curse than a real undead.

Actually, you die, and a evil spirit/devil/demon/negative energy blahblah possesses your body.. still wanna be bitten?
Ace_of_time
05-24-07, 10:13 PM Dragon vamps also get bonus HP. As well as vamp stuff and are still +5.
:(
El_Machinae
05-25-07, 07:21 AM Libiris Mortis has Vampire as an undead race. If you want to give creatures a weaker version, just pick a level of the race and add all the abilities of that level and lower.

Simple and sweet, and scaled from LA1 to LA8

That's a good suggestion.
Thief_of_Hope
05-26-07, 02:08 AM I'm personally very fond of the Savage Progressions articles, the first of which is, coincidentally, about the vampire:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Basically, he took the concept of leveling as a monster from Savage Species, applied it to templates (so that gaining a template mid-campaign didn't suddenly upset party balance), and made leveling in the template optional, as opposed to required like leveling in a monstrous race. It's really cool, and the whole article series goes through each of the templates from the core books. You might consider it for having a weaker vampire, although I like the idea of a lesser vampire template as well.
StrahdVonZarovich
05-28-07, 04:51 AM Thanks for the link, it will be very useful in the future.
Maraxus
05-31-07, 07:25 AM Wow, let me sum up:
A: "How is this vampire version looking?"
B-E: "The original vampire sucks"
F-I: "There are other vampire-templates here and there."
J-K: "I'd make it this way ..."
L-M: "In mythologie vampires have ..."

~On pg. 251 in the Monster Manual there are two examples of Vampires, a fighter and a monk/ shadowdancer. Fair enough.

~The Fighter example however has a level adjustment of +5, while the other vampire adn template say that it's +8.

~Now, I can understand that there is probably a mistake, but I like the idea of a lesser Vampire. So I believe I'll make one.

~Lesser Vampire
-Same statistics as vampire, except as follows:
-Natural Armor: +4
-They do not possess the Dominate Ability, it is replaced with Charm Person.
-They do not possess the Create Spawn ability.
-Energy Drain drops to One negative level lost.
-DR 5/ magic and silver.
-Fast Healing changes a little as well. Lesser Vampires have Fast Healing 1 while not in the sunlight, and Fast Healing 5 while in a Coffin prepared ahead of time for them.
-Ability Adjustments: Str +4, Dex+4, Cha +2
-Lesser Vampires gain skill bonuses to the same skills, but only +4.
-Bonus feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes.

~I believe this is around a +4-6 LA, so any confirmation would help. I got most of the idea from the Vampire Spawn.

Yes, I like that. And if you keep the vunerabilities, it's definitly at the low end of your scale, say LA 4. That's actually nice since it means that with his tuning resistence of +4, he is (unlike the original vampire) less likely to get destroyed/comanded by the next best cleric. Getting turned is likely, bud I'd have less of a problem with that. :D

When you change fast healing, this does not effect the 0 HP emergency gaserous form, does it?

Overall, yes, I see this template en par with the lich. Maybe weaker - depending on how much the vampire weaknesses come into play in your DM's gaming style.
Alyss
05-31-07, 08:36 AM Here here. I may just plifer this here lesser vampire, if you don't mind?
Azazyll
05-31-07, 09:05 AM personally, the next time they make the vampire, I'd like to see the core idea of the monster, with salient abilities optional. No energy drain, no children of the night, no dominate, no climb walls. just sucking blood and keeping out of the light, which, of course, isn't actually in dracula, who can wander around in daylight just fine, but it's iconic at this point after a hundred more years of vampire stories. Then let DMs add those abilities back on to boost the CR and LA, with examples provided. it's worth the space; more people like vampires than drow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rice830 05-18-07, 12:50 AM	~On pg. 251 in the Monster Manual there are two examples of Vampires, a fighter and a monk/ shadowdancer. Fair enough. ~The Fighter example however has a level adjustment of +5, while the other vampire adn template say that it's +8. ~Now, I can understand that there is probably a mistake, but I like the idea of a lesser Vampire. So I believe I'll make one. ~Lesser Vampire -Same statistics as vampire, except as follows: -Natural Armor: +4 -They do not possess the Dominate Ability, it is replaced with Charm Person. -They do not possess the Create Spawn ability. -Energy Drain drops to One negative level lost. -DR 5/ magic and silver. -Fast Healing changes a little as well. Lesser Vampires have Fast Healing 1 while not in the sunlight, and Fast Healing 5 while in a Coffin prepared ahead of time for them. -Ability Adjustments: Str +4, Dex+4, Cha +2 -Lesser Vampires gain skill bonuses to the same skills, but only +4. -Bonus feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes. ~I believe this is around a +4-6 LA, so any confirmation would help. I got most of the idea from the Vampire Spawn.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 01:03 AM	To be honest, if you're trying to do a simpler vampire template then it's probably a good idea to get rid of all of the weird and situational abilities and traits too. In other words, dump things like Children of the Night and Spider Climb and perhaps even Alternate Form (or reduce it to one alternate form), but also get rid of some of the strange weaknesses like the inability to cross running water or enter a home without permission. Tossing these things would make it much easier to reduce the LA of the template.
StrahdVonZarovich 05-18-07, 02:55 AM	What would be the LA of a vampire-lord btw, since its 3.0 based?
Morwen 05-18-07, 08:26 AM	What would be the LA of a vampire-lord btw, since its 3.0 based? I think I remember someone calling it an LA +12 somewhere on these boards..
Ace_of_time 05-18-07, 10:48 PM	The dragon vamps only has +5 and it can go through water and not have to worry about holy symbols and the like.
Rechan 05-19-07, 02:47 AM	In other words, dump things like Children of the Night and Spider Climb and perhaps even Alternate Form (or reduce it to one alternate form), but also get rid of some of the strange weaknesses like the inability to cross running water or enter a home without permission. Tossing these things would make it much easier to reduce the LA of the template. And while you're at it why don't you just toss out the whole drinking blood thing and the sunlight thing. Those are way too limiting too. :rolleyes: The bulk of the vampire's LA boost is not related to little frill powers like Spiderclimb and Children of the Night. Changing into a dire wolf is nothing. It comes from the stat boosts, the ability to create Spawn, bestow negative levels, fast healing, and most significantly the ability to Dominate Person at will. Essentially, the vampire in the MM is the mythological vampire. Bram Stoker's, and a cobbling together of other folklore. The Vampire having its little things like Children of the Night are the same reason that Liches have plycharies. While D&D is not mythology heavy, it's still magical and not completely modern in monster conception. If you were going to make a Hollywood vampire, there really is little reason to have them vulnurable to sunlight or just wooden stakes because those are also attributed to the same folklore as the other trappings. After all, no other undead have such weaknesses. Really, if you stripped all the weaknesses and frill powers away from Vampires, they would just be intelligent undead that can make more of themselves by drinking blood. At its root, a vampire is merely an intelligent, undead parasite. So why keep the rest? Also, reducing their limits makes them more powerful. A vampire that can cross running water and enter into homes uninvited is a much stronger vampire than one who is limited and forced to resort to cunning charm.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-19-07, 04:32 AM	Reducing the limits doesn't really end up making them more powerful as far as LA goes because LA assumes best-case scenarios (in other words, that PCs will be able to work around the limits). It does make the template a lot less awkward to deal with. Moreover, tossing out Children of the Night and Alternate Form makes things far simpler to work with. Summoning masses of mooks just bogs down combat for a PC party, and Alternate Form with a whole range of forms means that the character needs a lot of different stat blocks for each form. Something like Con drain from blood drinking or bestowing negative levels with a slam attack is comparatively straightforward.
CaoSlayer 05-19-07, 05:45 AM	I always have through of being a vampire much more related to being a curse than a real undead.
Rechan 05-19-07, 01:30 PM	Reducing the limits doesn't really end up making them more powerful as far as LA goes because LA assumes best-case scenarios (in other words, that PCs will be able to work around the limits). It does make the template a lot less awkward to deal with. Moreover, tossing out Children of the Night and Alternate Form makes things far simpler to work with. Summoning masses of mooks just bogs down combat for a PC party, and Alternate Form with a whole range of forms means that the character needs a lot of different stat blocks for each form. Something like Con drain from blood drinking or bestowing negative levels with a slam attack is comparatively straightforward. Ease of play and less awkward does not effect the LA. Heaping the limits on the PC for choosing to be a vampire is par the course - it's useful for the DM in fact, if they're clever enough to engineer a situation so that the PC has to think their way out of it. If you're afraid of the LA, strip out the Dominate Person power. It's used at will.
Yadot 05-19-07, 01:32 PM	I always have through of being a vampire much more related to being a curse than a real undead. In the original legends vampires were demon-possesed dead bodies. But if DnD just stuck to mythology elves would be 3 feet tall and drow metal smiths.
StrahdVonZarovich 05-24-07, 05:59 AM	If you're afraid of the LA, strip out the Dominate Person power. It's used at will. I'm not too sure about it myself. But it was never stated CLEARLY that it could be used at will. I mean where is it written?!
jaelis 05-24-07, 09:10 AM	I'm not too sure about it myself. But it was never stated CLEARLY that it could be used at will. I mean where is it written?! It says it is like a gaze attack, which is at will. And in general, if a creature has an ability that doesn't have a stated limit, then it is usable at will.
Knightblde 05-24-07, 09:26 AM	Libiris Mortis has Vampire as an undead race. If you want to give creatures a weaker version, just pick a level of the race and add all the abilities of that level and lower. Simple and sweet, and scaled from LA1 to LA8
Lionhearted 05-24-07, 05:44 PM	I always have through of being a vampire much more related to being a curse than a real undead. Actually, you die, and a evil spirit/devil/demon/negative energy blahblah possesses your body.. still wanna be bitten?
Ace_of_time 05-24-07, 10:13 PM	Dragon vamps also get bonus HP. As well as vamp stuff and are still +5. :(
El_Machinae 05-25-07, 07:21 AM	Libiris Mortis has Vampire as an undead race. If you want to give creatures a weaker version, just pick a level of the race and add all the abilities of that level and lower. Simple and sweet, and scaled from LA1 to LA8 That's a good suggestion.
Thief_of_Hope 05-26-07, 02:08 AM	I'm personally very fond of the Savage Progressions articles, the first of which is, coincidentally, about the vampire: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a Basically, he took the concept of leveling as a monster from Savage Species, applied it to templates (so that gaining a template mid-campaign didn't suddenly upset party balance), and made leveling in the template optional, as opposed to required like leveling in a monstrous race. It's really cool, and the whole article series goes through each of the templates from the core books. You might consider it for having a weaker vampire, although I like the idea of a lesser vampire template as well.
StrahdVonZarovich 05-28-07, 04:51 AM	Thanks for the link, it will be very useful in the future.
Maraxus 05-31-07, 07:25 AM	Wow, let me sum up: A: "How is this vampire version looking?" B-E: "The original vampire sucks" F-I: "There are other vampire-templates here and there." J-K: "I'd make it this way ..." L-M: "In mythologie vampires have ..." ~On pg. 251 in the Monster Manual there are two examples of Vampires, a fighter and a monk/ shadowdancer. Fair enough. ~The Fighter example however has a level adjustment of +5, while the other vampire adn template say that it's +8. ~Now, I can understand that there is probably a mistake, but I like the idea of a lesser Vampire. So I believe I'll make one. ~Lesser Vampire -Same statistics as vampire, except as follows: -Natural Armor: +4 -They do not possess the Dominate Ability, it is replaced with Charm Person. -They do not possess the Create Spawn ability. -Energy Drain drops to One negative level lost. -DR 5/ magic and silver. -Fast Healing changes a little as well. Lesser Vampires have Fast Healing 1 while not in the sunlight, and Fast Healing 5 while in a Coffin prepared ahead of time for them. -Ability Adjustments: Str +4, Dex+4, Cha +2 -Lesser Vampires gain skill bonuses to the same skills, but only +4. -Bonus feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes. ~I believe this is around a +4-6 LA, so any confirmation would help. I got most of the idea from the Vampire Spawn. Yes, I like that. And if you keep the vunerabilities, it's definitly at the low end of your scale, say LA 4. That's actually nice since it means that with his tuning resistence of +4, he is (unlike the original vampire) less likely to get destroyed/comanded by the next best cleric. Getting turned is likely, bud I'd have less of a problem with that. :D When you change fast healing, this does not effect the 0 HP emergency gaserous form, does it? Overall, yes, I see this template en par with the lich. Maybe weaker - depending on how much the vampire weaknesses come into play in your DM's gaming style.
Alyss 05-31-07, 08:36 AM	Here here. I may just plifer this here lesser vampire, if you don't mind?
Azazyll 05-31-07, 09:05 AM	personally, the next time they make the vampire, I'd like to see the core idea of the monster, with salient abilities optional. No energy drain, no children of the night, no dominate, no climb walls. just sucking blood and keeping out of the light, which, of course, isn't actually in dracula, who can wander around in daylight just fine, but it's iconic at this point after a hundred more years of vampire stories. Then let DMs add those abilities back on to boost the CR and LA, with examples provided. it's worth the space; more people like vampires than drow.