Post/Author/DateTime	Post
painfool 11-15-07, 11:52 PM	Velling (second version) Personality Velllings are typically gentle, curious people who are said to appear interested in everything about the world around them. They welcome new experiences and seek to learn as much about life as they can. Vellings usually try to avoid conflict of all types, especially physical, but understand that always doing so isn't a real possibility. Physical Description Vellings men range from 8.5 to about 10 feet tall and typically weigh between 200 and 300 pounds. Velling women typically weigh roughly the same but are slight shorter, typically between 8 and 9 feet tall. Vellings are considerably thin for their height; a velling is no bigger around at any part of their body than a human. They are almost always pale skinned with reddish curly hair. Velling men cannot grow mustaches, and only a small beard on the tip of their chins. The most distinguishing feature other than height between a velling and a human is the velling's long, drooping earlobes that fall down just below the their chin. A velling is consider an adult at age 26 and may live to reach beyond 150. Relations Being good-natured folk with a thirst for knowledge, vellings typically enjoy interacting with and thereby learning about mostly all of the intelligent races. Alignment Vellings are mostly of good intentions, but rarely have any thoughts on law and chaos one way or another. Velling Lands Vellings typically live in very small villages. A velling village is typically located along the midpoint of an established travel route (and preferably near a woodland area if possible). These villages often serve as a sort of waypoint where weary travellers may stop to rest and restock, while the vellings themselves get to benefit from the stories and information these travellers share. Religion Vellings are likely to worship any deity that favors knowledge or nature. Adventurers Vellings may become adventurers for a variety of different reasons. Some set off to see and thereby understand as much of the world as possible. Others adventure for the sake of personal wealth of fame. And some adventure simply to see if they're capable of living out the stories they've learned rather than just learning them. Stats • -2 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +2 int, +2 wis,: Vellings are weak and slow but sturdy and famously wise people. • 30ft speed. • Size: Large. • +2 knowledge (arcana and nature) • +2 natural armor (velling skin is almost exactly like human skin, only more than three times as thick.) • +2 on saves vs. poison/disease. • Detect Magic 1/day (cast as 1st level caster) as spell-like ability. • Languages: common bonus languages: dwarven, elven, giant, gnome, goblin, orc. • Favored class: Wizard, a multi-classing velling doesn’t count levels of wizard for the purposes of multi-classing. • Level Adjustment: +1
Rulebook 11-16-07, 12:35 AM	+1 easily. the large size alone pretty much makes this a +1, not to mention the two good mental stats and natural armor.
Bahumut 11-16-07, 12:53 AM	Stats • -2 str, -2 dex, +2 int, +2 wis: Vellings are weak and slow but famously wise people. (2FP) (additional -7FP for the attack penalties from large size, lower str, and lower dex) (NET -5FP) • 30ft speed (0FP) • Size: Large. (Vellings are typically between 8 and 10 feet tall. Arms over their heads, vellings can easily reach shelves/objects 12 feet high.) (10 ft reach = 25FP) • +2 knowledge (arcana and nature) (1FP) • +1 natural armor (velling skin is almost exactly like human skin, only more than three times as thick.)(6FP) • +2 on saves vs. poison/disease. (1FP) • Languages: common bonus languages: dwarven, elven, giant, gnome, goblin, orc. • Favored class: Wizard, a multi-classing velling doesn’t count levels of wizard for the purposes of multi-classing. 28FP puts this right around the middle of +1 LA. as you can see, reach is what does it.
painfool 11-16-07, 08:40 AM	Hmmm.... So it's basically not possible to make a Large race without level adjustment?
zeratulcraft 11-16-07, 08:45 AM	If they have reach, they'll have LA.
Bahumut 11-16-07, 09:38 AM	If they have reach, they'll have LA. aye, remember: without reach, being large is actually pretty even on the benefits and drawbacks. sure, you get a size bonus on some things, but you also get -1 to attack, -1 to AC, and -4 Hide.
painfool 11-16-07, 09:55 AM	Is reach really that big of a bonus though?
Bahumut 11-16-07, 10:02 AM	very much so...having a 10ft reach means that any enemy without a reach weapon is taking an AoO from you just to get close enough to attack you. since you threaten 10ft instead of 5, it becomes VERY difficult to get around your character without incurring multiple AoO (unless you have 12 Dex, if you have reach you WILL take combat reflexes. trust me). you can provide flanking for multiple allies against multiple foes quite easily. if YOU have a 10ft reach weapon, your reach becomes 15 to 20 feet! i havent slept yet, so im sure there's more. anyone wanna pick up my slack? =D
painfool 11-16-07, 10:16 AM	Hmmm..... Is there anything I can do to penalize them enough to achieve a 0 LA (like giving them -4 str, -4 dex, only +2 int), or is that really just being silly?
painfool 11-16-07, 10:20 AM	Also, I originally forgot to write in that vellings can use Detect Magic 1/day as a spell-like ability - anyone know how many FP that is?
DwarfPcfan 11-16-07, 10:22 AM	Personally, I find the stats adjustment slightly silly, I mean a large race with -2 strenght. That seems quite impossible, size alone should make them stronger then most humanoid creatures that's why molst large races have strenght bonuses. Wich is logical, a deer is stronger then a rat even if comparitively a puma, about the same size is stronger. To reflect that they are weaker then other large humanoids instead make their stats adjustment -2 dex, +2 int, +2 wis I mean with those stats, any combatant human will out wrestle them easy with a few levels wich makes no sense since large creatures are by definition more powerful physically thanks to sheer size...
painfool 11-16-07, 10:43 AM	Except that's sort of the point of this race - they're large but weak and frail. They are slightly weaker on average than humans. I don't understand what's hard to grasp about that concept.
Orenmir 11-16-07, 10:54 AM	28FP puts this right around the middle of +1 LA. as you can see, reach is what does it. Where can I find the documentation for this "FP" system? (sorry to derail)
Bahumut 11-16-07, 11:04 AM	Where can I find the documentation for this "FP" system? (sorry to derail) heres the original thread: YabbaTheWhat's FeaturePoints (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=667683) and here is the original PDF FeaturePoints BETA PDF (http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf)...its a good system, it does have it's flaws, but i like it a lot. REMEMBER, it was never finished, as YabbatheWhat got busy and whatnot. if im evaluating a race for LA, i check it both against FeaturePoints and the Savage Species breakdown. between the two, i can usually get a good feel for where the LA is.
gullas 11-16-07, 07:44 PM	reminds me of an simulator(wich someone posted on these boards while back) wich told me basicly if I was going to play an Large size creature with no LA adjustment I would have to tune all the physical scores down by 2-4 and possibly some mental abilties to:eek: .... In case your wandering , yes it was the one wich said dwarfs are lvl adjustment +1:rolleyes:
painfool 11-16-07, 09:39 PM	Okay, so I've decided I don't mind them being +1 LA - but if I give them the ability to use Detect Magic 1/day (as a 1st level caster) like I had intended, would they still be only +1 or would that be enough to push them over to +2 LA?
rironin 11-16-07, 10:07 PM	Okay, so I've decided I don't mind them being +1 LA - but if I give them the ability to use Detect Magic 1/day (as a 1st level caster) like I had intended, would they still be only +1 or would that be enough to push them over to +2 LA?The problem with making them +1 LA is that now anyone who makes a Velling character is going to feel the need to play to its strengths - but it's very hard to take advantage of the Velling's large size and its magical inclinations. I would feel like I was paying so much just to be Large and have reach, it would be a waste if I didn't make use of it. At the same time, the Velling is naturally bad at melee combat and more inclined to be a wizard. It's hard to justify a wizard with +1 LA unless the LA contributes greatly to the character's power.
painfool 11-16-07, 10:10 PM	I agree and understand - that's why I'd originally thought they could be 0 LA. But frankly my games run much more on flavor than mechanics and combat anyway - so my players typically choose their races more on the their flavor text than their specs or traits.
painfool 11-16-07, 10:42 PM	Stats • -2 str, -2 dex, +2 int, +2 wis: Vellings are weak and slow but famously wise people. (2FP) (additional -7FP for the attack penalties from large size, lower str, and lower dex) (NET -5FP) • 30ft speed (0FP) • Size: Large. (Vellings are typically between 8 and 10 feet tall. Arms over their heads, vellings can easily reach shelves/objects 12 feet high.) (10 ft reach = 25FP) • +2 knowledge (arcana and nature) (1FP) • +1 natural armor (velling skin is almost exactly like human skin, only more than three times as thick.)(6FP) • +2 on saves vs. poison/disease. (1FP) • Languages: common bonus languages: dwarven, elven, giant, gnome, goblin, orc. • Favored class: Wizard, a multi-classing velling doesn’t count levels of wizard for the purposes of multi-classing. 28FP puts this right around the middle of +1 LA. as you can see, reach is what does it. The problem with making them +1 LA is that now anyone who makes a Velling character is going to feel the need to play to its strengths - but it's very hard to take advantage of the Velling's large size and its magical inclinations. I would feel like I was paying so much just to be Large and have reach, it would be a waste if I didn't make use of it. At the same time, the Velling is naturally bad at melee combat and more inclined to be a wizard. It's hard to justify a wizard with +1 LA unless the LA contributes greatly to the character's power. Okay, according to Yaba's feature points a balanced +1 LA race falls between 30 and 40 FP... Bahumut says I'm at 28 right now, so let's see if I can't bring that up to just under 40ish to make the race more appealing. • -2 str, -2 dex, +2 con, +2 int, +2 wis,: Vellings are weak and slow but sturdy and famously wise people. (6FP) (additional -7FP for the attack penalties from large size, lower str, and lower dex) (NET -1FP) • 30ft speed (0FP) • Size: Large. (Vellings are typically between 8 and 10 feet tall. Arms over their heads, vellings can easily reach shelves/objects 12 feet high.) (10 ft reach = 25FP) • +2 knowledge (arcana and nature) (1FP) • +2 natural armor (velling skin is almost exactly like human skin, only more than three times as thick.)(12FP) • +2 on saves vs. poison/disease. (1FP) • Detect Magic 1/day (cast as 1st level caster) as spell-like ability. (1FP) • Languages: common bonus languages: dwarven, elven, giant, gnome, goblin, orc. • Favored class: Wizard, a multi-classing velling doesn’t count levels of wizard for the purposes of multi-classing. ....okay, so that actually brings the race up to 39 FP, perfectly within the "balanced" range for +1 LA... But it gives caster classes a reason to take the class: con bonus for extra hit points and 2 natural armor to help make up for their inability to wear armor. ...does the race sound better now? (edit: messed up math, fixed now)
rironin 11-16-07, 10:49 PM	...does the race sound better now?I like it. I can take it for the flavor and still have some benefits to enjoy even if the extra reach only helps me out when I happen to cast a touch spell. A good fix, I think!
painfool 11-16-07, 11:23 PM	I like it. I can take it for the flavor and still have some benefits to enjoy even if the extra reach only helps me out when I happen to cast a touch spell. A good fix, I think! Cool, thanks a lot for your help in working this out!
Finfreeze 11-17-07, 01:34 AM	Eh, I would've just brought down the strength to -4, kept it at LA +0, and see how that works in practice. You still come out ahead in the areas of reach and grappling, but your accuracy takes a noticeable hit and your damage is slightly lower than medium creatures. And don't you lose your base race's natural armor when you use one of those transforming abilities and spells like Alter Self? Either way, I can't see how natural armor is worth more than an ability score bonus. I mean, compare +2 dex to +1 natural armor: +2 dex grants... +1 to AC (limited by max dex if wearing armor) +1 to attack rolls with most ranged weapons +1 to initiative +1 to dex-based skills +1 on reflex saves While +1 natural gives... +1 natural armor It's almost completely one-sided.
Bahumut 11-17-07, 02:12 AM	true, but nat. armor is still useful if you're flat-footed, or if you've been captured and all your gear was taken away. i agree, dex is more useful overall, but you cant put an 18 roll into your "nat. armor stat", so think of it as a little extra padding on your wizards horribly small AC.
Bahumut 11-17-07, 02:14 AM	Cool, thanks a lot for your help in working this out! you're welcome; i like the idea of the race, and you fleshed it out really well. as i've said before, Yabba's system isnt perfect, but between it and the Savage Species guidelines, you can get a good LA estimate on just about anything. dont forget to come back and tell us how the race plays, after you've seen it playtested!
painfool 11-17-07, 10:51 AM	Eh, I would've just brought down the strength to -4, kept it at LA +0, and see how that works in practice. You still come out ahead in the areas of reach and grappling, but your accuracy takes a noticeable hit and your damage is slightly lower than medium creatures. And don't you lose your base race's natural armor when you use one of those transforming abilities and spells like Alter Self? Either way, I can't see how natural armor is worth more than an ability score bonus. I mean, compare +2 dex to +1 natural armor: +2 dex grants... +1 to AC (limited by max dex if wearing armor) +1 to attack rolls with most ranged weapons +1 to initiative +1 to dex-based skills +1 on reflex saves While +1 natural gives... +1 natural armor It's almost completely one-sided. That's true, but this is a case of the concept dictating the mechanics. These creatures are meant to be slightly more sluggish than humans as well, and I think the dex penalty implies that well enough. you're welcome; i like the idea of the race, and you fleshed it out really well. as i've said before, Yabba's system isnt perfect, but between it and the Savage Species guidelines, you can get a good LA estimate on just about anything. dont forget to come back and tell us how the race plays, after you've seen it playtested! I most definitely will do so - sadly our campaign probably won't start until at least January...
Finfreeze 11-18-07, 07:20 AM	That's true, but this is a case of the concept dictating the mechanics. These creatures are meant to be slightly more sluggish than humans as well, and I think the dex penalty implies that well enough. I have no problem with that at all. I am just questioning the Feature Point cost of natural armor. true, but nat. armor is still useful if you're flat-footed, or if you've been captured and all your gear was taken away. i agree, dex is more useful overall, but you cant put an 18 roll into your "nat. armor stat", so think of it as a little extra padding on your wizards horribly small AC. Well, before long you've got Alter Self and I guess Barkskin to overwrite/pump your natural armor up. Now granted, the Alter Self line is ridiculous and probably should've been made more similar to Summon Vivilor/Astral Construct's "list of traits you buy abilities off of". I think that if a +2 ability score boost is worth 4 FP, +1 natural armor should at most be worth 3 FP.
AtsuiShoto 11-18-07, 11:46 AM	Excellent work! I always love to see a racial design that bucks traditions! I think a Large race that is not specifically advantaged in melee combat is a great idea. I myself have toyed around with similar ideas, but usually in attempts to reach LA +0.
painfool 11-19-07, 12:17 AM	The problem with making them +1 LA is that now anyone who makes a Velling character is going to feel the need to play to its strengths - but it's very hard to take advantage of the Velling's large size and its magical inclinations. I would feel like I was paying so much just to be Large and have reach, it would be a waste if I didn't make use of it. At the same time, the Velling is naturally bad at melee combat and more inclined to be a wizard. It's hard to justify a wizard with +1 LA unless the LA contributes greatly to the character's power. Normally I'm not really all that into character optimization, but I was thinking and realized just how incredible a Velling wizard who takes one level of fighter then goes into the Eldritch Knight could be - almost full spell casting progression and the advantage of good BAB. A large sized greatsword does 3d6 damage, and if you want reach a large spiked chain does 2d6. So I'd say that if you take your character into the Eldritch Knight prestige you can definitely find ways to play to BOTH sides of the Velling's strengths.