Warforged and crusader healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged and crusader healing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
citizencoyote
05-18-07, 01:53 PM Has there ever been an official ruling on how crusader martial strikes and stances containing a healing benefit affect warforged? In other words, do they gain full benefit or only half benefit (as they would from a healing spell)? I've looked through several forums (including the Eberon ones) and done google searches, but can't find a definite answer.

Thanks in advance!
Zaistars69
05-18-07, 02:21 PM Has there ever been an official ruling on how crusader martial strikes and stances containing a healing benefit affect warforged? In other words, do they gain full benefit or only half benefit (as they would from a healing spell)? I've looked through several forums (including the Eberon ones) and done google searches, but can't find a definite answer.

Thanks in advance!

If it is divine healing than it is at 1/2 str. That's the way it be.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-18-07, 02:34 PM They are not Conjuration (Healing) effects, so they're not subject to the reduction that warforged experience for such effects.
Anguish2
05-18-07, 07:58 PM The wording in the ECS is fairly specific; "...spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged." Races of Eberron doesn't gainsay that.

That's two very specific things. Conjuration(healing) and supernatural abilities that heal.

So, for instance, a Paladin's Lay on Hands does 1/2 healing because it's (Su). So is a Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality. This gets entertaining when you look at the Dragon Shaman's Aura, which is (Su), but can project "vigor", which grants Fast Healing. According to MM309, Fast Healing is an (Ex). Fast healing "regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate", functions exactly like natural healing except where noted. Warforged don't heal lethal damage naturally (their native rate is 0 hp per infinite time period.) FH1 still means they regain hit points at 1 per round, given it's an (Ex). See, the Dragon Shaman's supernatural ability bestows an extraordinary ability on the warforged, which means it should work at full efficacy, despite the recent Ask Wizards ruling.

I ramble, but the viewpoints and complexity bear examination.

Let's look at Crusader's Strike (ToB58). It's a maneuver wherein when you hit someone who doesn't match your alignment in melee, your or an ally heals 1d6 + initiator level hit points. According to ToB9, "a maneuver usable by crusaders is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description". Your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction.

Let's look at Martial Spirit (ToB60). It's a stance wherein every time you hit in melee, you or an ally heals 2 hit points. Good news: according to ToB10, "a stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in the stance description". Once again, your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction.

The key for ToB material is to look for any text in the maneuver or stance that claims it's a supernatural ability. If you can't find it, it works at full strength. Very cut & dried.

Back to some of the non-Tome-of-Battle confusion with the warforged, in Races of Eberron, there's a racial substitution for warforged paladins. They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306 tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The
terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living, and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules, I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate.

I think there are some established errata that further complicate things, but hey. Just establish with your DM what the intent of the living construct healing-nerf is, and what the intent of other abilities are, and house-rule what needs ruling.
citizencoyote
05-20-07, 01:49 PM The wording in the ECS is fairly specific; "...spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged." Races of Eberron doesn't gainsay that.

That's two very specific things. Conjuration(healing) and supernatural abilities that heal.

The key for ToB material is to look for any text in the maneuver or stance that claims it's a supernatural ability. If you can't find it, it works at full strength. Very cut & dried.

Thank you for this excellent explanation, Anguish. As you say, the RAW as interpreted above are pretty clear about what Crusader healing is, and thus how it would interact with warforged.

:lightbulb
TheAnthroDM
05-20-07, 02:03 PM The wording in the ECS is fairly specific; "...spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged." Races of Eberron doesn't gainsay that.

That's two very specific things. Conjuration(healing) and supernatural abilities that heal.

So, for instance, a Paladin's Lay on Hands does 1/2 healing because it's (Su). So is a Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality. This gets entertaining when you look at the Dragon Shaman's Aura, which is (Su), but can project "vigor", which grants Fast Healing. According to MM309, Fast Healing is an (Ex). Fast healing "regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate", functions exactly like natural healing except where noted. Warforged don't heal lethal damage naturally (their native rate is 0 hp per infinite time period.) FH1 still means they regain hit points at 1 per round, given it's an (Ex). See, the Dragon Shaman's supernatural ability bestows an extraordinary ability on the warforged, which means it should work at full efficacy, despite the recent Ask Wizards ruling.

I ramble, but the viewpoints and complexity bear examination.

Let's look at Crusader's Strike (ToB58). It's a maneuver wherein when you hit someone who doesn't match your alignment in melee, your or an ally heals 1d6 + initiator level hit points. According to ToB9, "a maneuver usable by crusaders is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description". Your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction.

Let's look at Martial Spirit (ToB60). It's a stance wherein every time you hit in melee, you or an ally heals 2 hit points. Good news: according to ToB10, "a stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in the stance description". Once again, your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction.

The key for ToB material is to look for any text in the maneuver or stance that claims it's a supernatural ability. If you can't find it, it works at full strength. Very cut & dried.

Back to some of the non-Tome-of-Battle confusion with the warforged, in Races of Eberron, there's a racial substitution for warforged paladins. They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306 tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The
terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living, and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules, I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate.

I think there are some established errata that further complicate things, but hey. Just establish with your DM what the intent of the living construct healing-nerf is, and what the intent of other abilities are, and house-rule what needs ruling.

:clap: I could not have said it better myself.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-20-07, 02:48 PM > They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total
> number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution
> bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even
> goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306
> tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The
> terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given
> the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living,
> and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it
> DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules,
> I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate.

It does't, though. "Repairing" damage considered to be a different effect than "Healing" or "Curing" damage. It's one of those cases where the rules split hairs about exact wording, but it's what the Repair X Damage series is all about.
Zaistars69
05-21-07, 10:41 AM Back to some of the non-Tome-of-Battle confusion with the warforged, in Races of Eberron, there's a racial substitution for warforged paladins. They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306 tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The
terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living, and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules, I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate.

I don't have my books on me right now but doesn't the ability say specifically that it heals constructs and living constructs on a 1:1 basis? Isn't that the whole point of the ability. I think that would be a pretty cut and dry exception.
Anguish2
05-21-07, 07:05 PM I don't have my books on me right now but doesn't the ability say specifically that it heals constructs and living constructs on a 1:1 basis? Isn't that the whole point of the ability. I think that would be a pretty cut and dry exception.

Nah. I didn't triple-check myself, but the phraseology is that it "repairs hit points". It doesn't (unless I'm completely on crack) actually say that it's 100% effective on warforged. I get the spirit, of course. And yes, cure light wounds is different from repair light damage for a reason. Still it could very reasonably be argued that given it's a Supernatural ability that cures hitpoint damage, it qualifies for nerfage. I does say that it's 1/2 effective on living creatures, of which a warforged is one, annoyingly.

It's Races of Eberron 132.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
citizencoyote 05-18-07, 01:53 PM	Has there ever been an official ruling on how crusader martial strikes and stances containing a healing benefit affect warforged? In other words, do they gain full benefit or only half benefit (as they would from a healing spell)? I've looked through several forums (including the Eberon ones) and done google searches, but can't find a definite answer. Thanks in advance!
Zaistars69 05-18-07, 02:21 PM	Has there ever been an official ruling on how crusader martial strikes and stances containing a healing benefit affect warforged? In other words, do they gain full benefit or only half benefit (as they would from a healing spell)? I've looked through several forums (including the Eberon ones) and done google searches, but can't find a definite answer. Thanks in advance! If it is divine healing than it is at 1/2 str. That's the way it be.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 02:34 PM	They are not Conjuration (Healing) effects, so they're not subject to the reduction that warforged experience for such effects.
Anguish2 05-18-07, 07:58 PM	The wording in the ECS is fairly specific; "...spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged." Races of Eberron doesn't gainsay that. That's two very specific things. Conjuration(healing) and supernatural abilities that heal. So, for instance, a Paladin's Lay on Hands does 1/2 healing because it's (Su). So is a Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality. This gets entertaining when you look at the Dragon Shaman's Aura, which is (Su), but can project "vigor", which grants Fast Healing. According to MM309, Fast Healing is an (Ex). Fast healing "regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate", functions exactly like natural healing except where noted. Warforged don't heal lethal damage naturally (their native rate is 0 hp per infinite time period.) FH1 still means they regain hit points at 1 per round, given it's an (Ex). See, the Dragon Shaman's supernatural ability bestows an extraordinary ability on the warforged, which means it should work at full efficacy, despite the recent Ask Wizards ruling. I ramble, but the viewpoints and complexity bear examination. Let's look at Crusader's Strike (ToB58). It's a maneuver wherein when you hit someone who doesn't match your alignment in melee, your or an ally heals 1d6 + initiator level hit points. According to ToB9, "a maneuver usable by crusaders is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description". Your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction. Let's look at Martial Spirit (ToB60). It's a stance wherein every time you hit in melee, you or an ally heals 2 hit points. Good news: according to ToB10, "a stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in the stance description". Once again, your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction. The key for ToB material is to look for any text in the maneuver or stance that claims it's a supernatural ability. If you can't find it, it works at full strength. Very cut & dried. Back to some of the non-Tome-of-Battle confusion with the warforged, in Races of Eberron, there's a racial substitution for warforged paladins. They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306 tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living, and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules, I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate. I think there are some established errata that further complicate things, but hey. Just establish with your DM what the intent of the living construct healing-nerf is, and what the intent of other abilities are, and house-rule what needs ruling.
citizencoyote 05-20-07, 01:49 PM	The wording in the ECS is fairly specific; "...spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged." Races of Eberron doesn't gainsay that. That's two very specific things. Conjuration(healing) and supernatural abilities that heal. The key for ToB material is to look for any text in the maneuver or stance that claims it's a supernatural ability. If you can't find it, it works at full strength. Very cut & dried. Thank you for this excellent explanation, Anguish. As you say, the RAW as interpreted above are pretty clear about what Crusader healing is, and thus how it would interact with warforged. :lightbulb
TheAnthroDM 05-20-07, 02:03 PM	The wording in the ECS is fairly specific; "...spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged." Races of Eberron doesn't gainsay that. That's two very specific things. Conjuration(healing) and supernatural abilities that heal. So, for instance, a Paladin's Lay on Hands does 1/2 healing because it's (Su). So is a Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality. This gets entertaining when you look at the Dragon Shaman's Aura, which is (Su), but can project "vigor", which grants Fast Healing. According to MM309, Fast Healing is an (Ex). Fast healing "regains hit points at an exceptionally fast rate", functions exactly like natural healing except where noted. Warforged don't heal lethal damage naturally (their native rate is 0 hp per infinite time period.) FH1 still means they regain hit points at 1 per round, given it's an (Ex). See, the Dragon Shaman's supernatural ability bestows an extraordinary ability on the warforged, which means it should work at full efficacy, despite the recent Ask Wizards ruling. I ramble, but the viewpoints and complexity bear examination. Let's look at Crusader's Strike (ToB58). It's a maneuver wherein when you hit someone who doesn't match your alignment in melee, your or an ally heals 1d6 + initiator level hit points. According to ToB9, "a maneuver usable by crusaders is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description". Your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction. Let's look at Martial Spirit (ToB60). It's a stance wherein every time you hit in melee, you or an ally heals 2 hit points. Good news: according to ToB10, "a stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in the stance description". Once again, your warforged Crusader is 100% able to benefit from this healing without any reduction. The key for ToB material is to look for any text in the maneuver or stance that claims it's a supernatural ability. If you can't find it, it works at full strength. Very cut & dried. Back to some of the non-Tome-of-Battle confusion with the warforged, in Races of Eberron, there's a racial substitution for warforged paladins. They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306 tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living, and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules, I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate. I think there are some established errata that further complicate things, but hey. Just establish with your DM what the intent of the living construct healing-nerf is, and what the intent of other abilities are, and house-rule what needs ruling. :clap: I could not have said it better myself.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-20-07, 02:48 PM	> They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total > number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution > bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even > goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306 > tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The > terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given > the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living, > and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it > DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules, > I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate. It does't, though. "Repairing" damage considered to be a different effect than "Healing" or "Curing" damage. It's one of those cases where the rules split hairs about exact wording, but it's what the Repair X Damage series is all about.
Zaistars69 05-21-07, 10:41 AM	Back to some of the non-Tome-of-Battle confusion with the warforged, in Races of Eberron, there's a racial substitution for warforged paladins. They get Repair Damage, which is (Su). Um. "Each day he can repair a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level × his Constitution bonus." It says you can do this to constructs and/or living constructs. It even goes on to say this ability works at 1/2 rate on "living creatures". PHB 306 tells us "creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms 'creature' and 'character' are sometimes used interchangeably." Given the warforged has the living construct subtype and is a creature and is living, and given that the Repair Damage ability is supernatural and given that it DOESN'T actually say that it is an exception to any of the established rules, I'd kind of think RAW it repairs warforged at 1/2 rate. I don't have my books on me right now but doesn't the ability say specifically that it heals constructs and living constructs on a 1:1 basis? Isn't that the whole point of the ability. I think that would be a pretty cut and dry exception.
Anguish2 05-21-07, 07:05 PM	I don't have my books on me right now but doesn't the ability say specifically that it heals constructs and living constructs on a 1:1 basis? Isn't that the whole point of the ability. I think that would be a pretty cut and dry exception. Nah. I didn't triple-check myself, but the phraseology is that it "repairs hit points". It doesn't (unless I'm completely on crack) actually say that it's 100% effective on warforged. I get the spirit, of course. And yes, cure light wounds is different from repair light damage for a reason. Still it could very reasonably be argued that given it's a Supernatural ability that cures hitpoint damage, it qualifies for nerfage. I does say that it's 1/2 effective on living creatures, of which a warforged is one, annoyingly. It's Races of Eberron 132.