Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 03:58 PM	Well, pretty soon i'm going to be starting up my first desert campaign (or waste campaign, if you want to bother with DnD semantics). And I was thinking, warforged would be perfect for the desert campaign, because they could survive the heat and don't need water. so my reason for posting is as follows: 1.) Do warforged have any special rules on heat and exhaustion or anything? I've never played in the Eberron Campaign setting, and I only have the MM III, which has their stats (which leads me to #2) 2.) Is it worth it buying the eberron campaign setting (or the races of eberron book), of do I get all I need from the information provided in the Monster Manual III? Thanks in advance
Loki5654 08-02-07, 04:05 PM	Read up on Heat Dangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#heatDangers). Warforged are immune to the fatigue, but not the non-lethal damage caused by prolonged exposure to heat.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 04:06 PM	ahhh, they can take nonlethal damage, you're right. hmm. good point.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 04:28 PM	well, I was thinking of giving them Heat Endurance as a racial bonus feat, to counter this. and it makes sense, to me at least, as they are barely living, if that. but i think that is where my confusion comes from. i'm not sure where the "living" stops and the "construct" starts.
DarkPawn 08-02-07, 05:31 PM	well, I was thinking of giving them Heat Endurance as a racial bonus feat, to counter this. and it makes sense, to me at least, as they are barely living, if that. but i think that is where my confusion comes from. i'm not sure where the "living" stops and the "construct" starts. You also wouldn't be the first DM to house rule that they don't take non-lethal damage from effects derived from fatigue or exhaustion, including heat exhaustion. I really don't see it as that game breaking to be honest either way.
Phelot_Plaguecrafter 08-02-07, 05:35 PM	well, I was thinking of giving them Heat Endurance as a racial bonus feat, to counter this. and it makes sense, to me at least, as they are barely living, if that. but i think that is where my confusion comes from. i'm not sure where the "living" stops and the "construct" starts. Heat Endurance as a racial feat might make sense. Maybe some...heat-forged or something. I wouldn't call Warforged 'barely living' if the only resource I had to go on was MMIII. Just saying. There really is no differentiation to where the construct stops and the living begins or vice versa. It's a living construct, something entirely different. As was said before, a Warforged is immune to fatigue and exhaustion, but, just like it is susceptible to criticals, it is also susceptible to non-lethal damage. However, with their Light Fortification racial, they have a chance of negating a critical, so maybe some house rules can come into play and give them that same percent chance to negate some non-lethal damage.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 05:57 PM	that might work, and I also like the idea of having them negate non-lethal damage derived from exhaustion or fatigue, as they are immune to it. it doesn't make too much sense to be a tiredless, non-sleeping, being that can't get fatigued... be hurt by the sun's rays. its a one thing, taking damage from fire, or taking non-lethal damage as you are bruised up or what not, but if you've no blood, and you don't require water, you can't get dehydrated. and heat forces the body to try and cool itself, ie, sweat. can't sweat cause you aren't full of water or blood. can't get exahusted from said heat. ...so why take non-lethal damage from said heat? just putting it out there/brainstorming.
Vharuck 08-02-07, 06:00 PM	that might work, and I also like the idea of having them negate non-lethal damage derived from exhaustion or fatigue, as they are immune to it. it doesn't make too much sense to be a tiredless, non-sleeping, being that can't get fatigued... be hurt by the sun's rays. its a one thing, taking damage from fire, or taking non-lethal damage as you are bruised up or what not, but if you've no blood, and you don't require water, you can't get dehydrated. and heat forces the body to try and cool itself, ie, sweat. can't sweat cause you aren't full of water or blood. can't get exahusted from said heat. ...so why take non-lethal damage from said heat? just putting it out there/brainstorming. Because a lot of their bodies, mostly the fibrous cords in place of a human's muscles, are wood. It's used instead of the stone found elsewhere in their bodies because it's flexible. Dry wood is not flexible. So it seems to make sense. Also, heat wears away at things, flesh or not.
ArcTan 08-02-07, 06:00 PM	well, I was thinking of giving them Heat Endurance as a racial bonus feat, to counter this. and it makes sense, to me at least, as they are barely living, if that. but i think that is where my confusion comes from. i'm not sure where the "living" stops and the "construct" starts. They're not immune to fire damage. Why should they be immune to taking nonlethal from heat?
ArcTan 08-02-07, 06:01 PM	that might work, and I also like the idea of having them negate non-lethal damage derived from exhaustion or fatigue, as they are immune to it. it doesn't make too much sense to be a tiredless, non-sleeping, being that can't get fatigued... be hurt by the sun's rays. its a one thing, taking damage from fire, or taking non-lethal damage as you are bruised up or what not, but if you've no blood, and you don't require water, you can't get dehydrated. Their bodies do contain alchemical fluids. They don't need to drink water, but heat could (and does, by RAW) certainly have a negative effect on them.
NerdNumber1 08-02-07, 06:09 PM	Think of the normal warforged like a car with infinent gas. It won't tire, but its engine might freeze or overheat in extreme temperatures. This isn't to say that you can't make a special desert warforged to cope with the heat, but I think it would be a regional modification, not a standard feature for non-desert warforged.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 06:09 PM	ahhh, did not know that. ...i might need to get the Eberron race guide thing, then.... i might just go with the Heat Endurance as racial bonus feat, then, and assume they are simply tougher, as they were once nothing more than machines, or somehting.
Mr_Teapot 08-02-07, 06:22 PM	You also wouldn't be the first DM to house rule that they don't take non-lethal damage from effects derived from fatigue or exhaustion, including heat exhaustion. I really don't see it as that game breaking to be honest either way. A desert campaign might be the only situation where it would be game breaking. It's certainly the only situation where Heat Endurance is worth spending a feat on.
ArcTan 08-02-07, 06:25 PM	Think of the normal warforged like a car with infinent gas. It won't tire, but its engine might freeze or overheat in extreme temperatures. ...and it will overheat and shut down if you keep it running continuously too long.
ArcTan 08-02-07, 06:26 PM	ahhh, did not know that. ...i might need to get the Eberron race guide thing, then.... i might just go with the Heat Endurance as racial bonus feat, then, and assume they are simply tougher, as they were once nothing more than machines, or somehting. It would make sense to say that "Desertforged" all took Heat Endurance as their first-level feat, rather than being able to spend it on a body feat -- the modifications necessary to make a Warforged tolerate the desert only work on standard, "basic" Warforged with Composite Plating, not on the special Adamantine and Mithral Body Warforged.
penchant 08-02-07, 06:27 PM	As it happens my game is a desert setting, and I have warforged prominently in the game. I have discovered that excessive application of the environmental rules does bog the game down a bit. While it was interesting at low levels to run "The eternal search for water" It just got old. I allowed the WF to have no issues with either water or heat, but they must have access to oil instead. Their bodies are made of metal and wood, both of which deteriorate quickly in the desert environment (just anyone who has served in the middle east). So water and shade for fleshies and oil for WF. Oh, and the 30 minute desert scene from Lawrence of Arabia bored everyone. Don't repicate it.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 06:29 PM	true, i might just need to make a region-specific. i'm DMing, so I can do what I want, I just want to make it balanced and fair. I'm setting it up so that they ORIGINATED in the desert. they were built originally as guards for isolated sights and builders, like the slaves in egypt and what not.
G_Mancer 08-02-07, 06:55 PM	if your about fairness, ant=d not about sticking to an idea that may be cool, but unfair (very very slightly), then you should give other races some benifets too. it'd bbe unfair to give a race an advantage the creaters of the race didn't give them (be it wizard/diety/dndplayer). if the campaign doesn't stick tightly to the rules of the waste(making checks every hour and all nuisance rules/checks) then the bonus feet is not game breaking, as some +0 races are better mechanically than others anyways, but if you're going to use the rules of the waste, then i'd reccomend saying that all/most WF in the waste select it at 1st lvl like mentioned earlier in the thread.
RuckusFox 08-04-07, 12:09 PM	Gah! Why does everyone try to take my favorite races/classes and ruin them by saying "Oh...give them this bonus feat." "Give them this stat..." They were made balanced. It specifically states in Eberron, and I quote from page 23. "Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype. A living construct is a created being given sentience and free will through powerful and complex creation enchantments. Warforged are living constructs taht combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures." -Warforged are not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities. (Unless Warforged Juggernaut is taken) -Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain. Once again, from page 23, I quote... "The unusual physical construction of warforged makes them vulnerable to certain spells and effects that normally don't affect living creatures. A warforged takes damage from heat metal and chill metal as if he were wearing metal armor. Likewise, a warforged is affected by repel metal or stone as if he were wearing metal armor. A warforged is repelled by repel wood. The iron in the body of a warforged makes him vulnerable to rusting grasp. The creature takes 2d6 points of damage from the spell (Reflex half; save DC 14 + caster's ability modifier). A warforged takes the same damage from a rust monster's touch (Reflex DC17 half). Spells such as stone to flesh, stone shape, warp wood, and wood shape affect objects only, and thus cannot be used on the stone and wood parts of a warforged." All there, black and white. Warforged take both lethal and non lethal damage (depending on the situation) from elements made to harm metals. Erosion likely does not take place due to being magically honed and created in the factory of White Hearth. And let's not forget that they have a 25% chance to negate Critical Hits and Sneak Attacks.
Lord_Of_The_Abyss 08-04-07, 12:57 PM	This has been eating away at me, warforged are no better in the desert than other creatures because of what RuckusFox said and, the sand dries out their wood plus affects their dexterity (come on, you know sand and moving parts don't get along well). You'd have to make it something like each day a warforged spends in the desert, it takes 1 point of dexterity damage unless he applies oil to its joints every day, if he misses one day, he automatically takes 1 point of dexterity damage plus 1 point for each day he preciously spent in the desert, the effects stack. For example, a warforged spends 5 days in the desert in total. Each day he applies oil to his joints to negate the ability damage, however on the 4th day he fails to apply oil to his joints and automatically takes 4 points of dexterity damage to make up for the previous days. Then on the fifth day he fails to apply oil again and therefore takes 1 additional point of dexterity damage and one point per day thereafter until he applies oil again. This effect is negated and the damage starts over again if the warforged turns incorporeal (through spells or otherwise), or is subject to a remove curse spell of a spell that heals ability score damage.
RuckusFox 08-05-07, 12:13 AM	This has been eating away at me, warforged are no better in the desert than other creatures because of what RuckusFox said and, the sand dries out their wood plus affects their dexterity (come on, you know sand and moving parts don't get along well). You'd have to make it something like each day a warforged spends in the desert, it takes 1 point of dexterity damage unless he applies oil to its joints every day, if he misses one day, he automatically takes 1 point of dexterity damage plus 1 point for each day he preciously spent in the desert, the effects stack. For example, a warforged spends 5 days in the desert in total. Each day he applies oil to his joints to negate the ability damage, however on the 4th day he fails to apply oil to his joints and automatically takes 4 points of dexterity damage to make up for the previous days. Then on the fifth day he fails to apply oil again and therefore takes 1 additional point of dexterity damage and one point per day thereafter until he applies oil again. This effect is negated and the damage starts over again if the warforged turns incorporeal (through spells or otherwise), or is subject to a remove curse spell of a spell that heals ability score damage. Nooo...because...they are magically forged! Spells, erosion, and specific natural offenses against their materials (wood for example) like given in the example in the book specifically state that they do not affect a warforged. All in all, Warforged DO NOT TAKE DAMAGE FROM THE HEAT IN THE DESERT. If you choose for this "Sand and oil" rule to apply, that's a house rule, but the Eberron campaign setting, as well as Races of Eberron, as well as Sandstorm do not state anything about a deduction to Warforged characters traveling in dusty terrain. Warforged DO NOT FATIGUE. Any natural attacks on objects would not affect the Warforged, as stated below with the "wood example." The heat and cold damage MUST be delivered upon a spell meant to do so. Effectively making it a "Inflict damage" spell, in a sense. To say that Warforged don't have a superior advantage over the rest of the races would be a lie in some very big ways. A warforged could be stranded at sea for months, never have to eat, never have to drink, never have to sleep. Best of all...screw cabin fever. He busily whittles away at a piece of wood, making master carvings while his crew-mates die left and right before being driven completely mad. In specific encounters, the Warforged are adeptly matched. But seriously, don't touch any of the classes or races. <.< It's not cool...ESPECIALLY if it's in a Keith Baker book.
Pandapeep 08-05-07, 01:55 AM	But seriously, don't touch any of the classes or races. <.< It's not cool...ESPECIALLY if it's in a Keith Baker book. Dude, D&D is meant to be mess with. The only way you can learn to balance is by messing up. Chill out. D&D is interactive and more or less free form. If this guy wants to give Warforged three heads, six arms and a breath weapon, let him house rule it. I'll bet he'll come back the next week and say, 'wow, that was dumb.' RAW is one thing, but house rules are the life blood of D&D.
Robotic_Christmass_Elf 08-05-07, 09:18 AM	Nooo...because...they are magically forged! Spells, erosion, and specific natural offenses against their materials (wood for example) like given in the example in the book specifically state that they do not affect a warforged. All in all, Warforged DO NOT TAKE DAMAGE FROM THE HEAT IN THE DESERT. If you choose for this "Sand and oil" rule to apply, that's a house rule, but the Eberron campaign setting, as well as Races of Eberron, as well as Sandstorm do not state anything about a deduction to Warforged characters traveling in dusty terrain. Warforged DO NOT FATIGUE. Any natural attacks on objects would not affect the Warforged, as stated below with the "wood example." The heat and cold damage MUST be delivered upon a spell meant to do so. Effectively making it a "Inflict damage" spell, in a sense. To say that Warforged don't have a superior advantage over the rest of the races would be a lie in some very big ways. A warforged could be stranded at sea for months, never have to eat, never have to drink, never have to sleep. Best of all...screw cabin fever. He busily whittles away at a piece of wood, making master carvings while his crew-mates die left and right before being driven completely mad. In specific encounters, the Warforged are adeptly matched. But seriously, don't touch any of the classes or races. <.< It's not cool...ESPECIALLY if it's in a Keith Baker book. I think you should calm down, really, it's okay, people are allowed to change the rules, however, more importantly, I think you should actually read the rules. A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a -4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour). A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued. So, being in the heat causes nonlethal damage, and then fatigue to any character, no matter what they are, but warforged are special right? They have their own special rules, so lets look through their description and see whats there. The pertinent details are ... Immunity to fatigue Unlike other constructs, Warforged are subject to nonlethal damage So a Warforged will take the nonlethal damage, but won't take the fatigue, those are the rules you seem so emotional about. But Warforged are grubbly, you say, they're unstoppable warriors, they should be better than others at wandering through the desert. Well, as Keith Baker would say, stop thinking in terms of vs uberpowerful PC's and monsters and compare them to your human warrior soldier. If you do this, Warforged have many bonuses. * Warforged do not have to eat or drink, they can wander around without support for a long, long time. * Unlike human heavy infantry or cavalry which get -4 on their saves if they wear armour, Warforged get no penalty for being in their adamantine or mithral body. * Warforged get a +2 con bonus, giving them an extra +1 on the save. * Warforged are immune to fatigue, and as such, do not get the penalty to hit, damage and AC that Humans will get as soon as they take damage. What this all means, is that while a Warforged PC can't just ignore heat dangers, A Warfoged platoon will have an advantage over an equal level, equally skilled Human contingent, and an even larger advantage over your average 1st-2nd level commoner army that's apparently so common in Eberron. In regards to the OP's second question, ECS has one extra feat, a prestige class and a bunch of appropriate and useful magic items, RoE has several extra feats, another prestige class and a couple of not quite so useful magic items, however MM3 does have most of the Warforged details, they're certainly playable like that. If someone is going to play one, make sure they look up the living construct type in the glossary at the back, as it has a lot of important abilities. It also doesn't list the the fact that Warforged have a slam attack in the "Warfoged as characters" bit. You can look up the details in the stat block.
RuckusFox 08-05-07, 11:52 AM	Sorry if I came off as a little heated, but I really don't like it when people try to mess with stuff that is perfectly balanced. Regardless, the topic starter wanted to know FACTS about the Warforged, and I gave them, courtesy of the Eberron Campaign Setting. He did not want house rules or else he would have stated it in his first post. House rules are just that, they are made as you go along, and in your group. I gave cold hard facts about a Warforged and I'm sticking to them. Keith Baker's works are amazing in my opinion, and I don't like to see them tampered with. =\
Robotic_Christmass_Elf 08-05-07, 10:43 PM	Sorry if I came off as a little heated, but I really don't like it when people try to mess with stuff that is perfectly balanced. Regardless, the topic starter wanted to know FACTS about the Warforged, and I gave them, courtesy of the Eberron Campaign Setting. He did not want house rules or else he would have stated it in his first post. House rules are just that, they are made as you go along, and in your group. I gave cold hard facts about a Warforged and I'm sticking to them. Keith Baker's works are amazing in my opinion, and I don't like to see them tampered with. =\ Yeah, sure, it's okay. I also get quite annoyed when people try to change things that don't need changing.
Irving 08-05-07, 11:06 PM	Sorry if I came off as a little heated, but I really don't like it when people try to mess with stuff that is perfectly balanced. ...Kindly permit me to point out that, in a desert campaign, the "balance" of a campaign changes. Fire damage becomes much weaker and cold damage becomes much stronger, and environmental issues become a concern. With those in mind, questions like these take on some significant merit. Simply taking Heat Tolerance as a regular feat isn't a bad idea. (Treat it as a physiological feature, like Adamantine Body - fins or radiators of some kind, maybe.) Swapping out heat tolerance for, say, the light fortification ability of the warforged isn't a horrible notion either. (The warforged has efficient but more vulnerable cooling systems.) But just as desert elves are an interesting and viable choice in a desert setting, so are desert warforged. (Think of obsidian-plated warforged with the heads of jackals and birds and gold tracery, a la Egyptian statues... very cool imagery...)
JulesCARV 08-05-07, 11:08 PM	Wow. I just realized that a typical commoner 1 is likely to go unconscious from nonlethal damage after spending two hours outside in 90+ degree heat. Spending five minutes in one of those 180 degree suanas, on the other hand, is likely to kill most people from the 1d6 lethal damage per minute from breathing in air that hot.
NerdNumber1 08-07-07, 01:23 PM	I don't think that the warforged should get something for nothing and giving up a body feat makes a warforged near-worthless. I think that just ignoring the fatigue of heat exposure would lead to warforged production, but it would also lead to a race to upgrade the forged to make an ultamate desert traveler, even if it gives up a bit of defense. Desert-forged subrace This relatively new form of warforged, made illegaly after the war or modified from exsisting units, was created to work in extreme conditions. Using experimental cooling and heating systems, it can survive temperatures that would make any other warforged shut down. Unfortunatly, this new system has exposed vital system making killing blows more likely (through since it was made in times of peace, designers ignored the flaw). Use regular rules except where noted: No light fortification (exposed cooling and heating sytems, that are vital to survival, make desert-forged as vulnerable to fatal attack as humans) Immune to non-leathal and leathal damage from prolonger exposure to heat or cold (no resistance to fire or cold attacks) Two natural (d3 slashing; crit x2) claw attacks which replace the warforged slam attack (claws work better as tools than blunt attacks for peace-time work) I wrote the story to fit Eberron, but I'm sure it can be adapted. The claws would add to its intimidation factor for warfare and knives are better for mundane tasks than clubs (slam->claws). P.E.A.C.H. please.
Frogmantis 08-07-07, 04:44 PM	damn, all this sounds good; i like it. I'm thinking more and more that I am designing them to be desert-specific. as in, in my campaign, the desert is the only place they have yet to exist, with the exception that some of them have left, been freed (they would most likely start out as slaves), or been created by rogue producers. that said, I might want to tweak them at their base level, as some of your are suggesting. I do find it odd that they can take non-lethal damage (and can therefore, in a way, to subject to overexposure and barroom brawls) yet are constructs and not subject to fatigue. but thats the way it works i suppose. I might simply change that, though that would be a significant house rule. Thanks for all the response, though.
RealSorceror 08-07-07, 05:03 PM	Crap, remind me not to hug my Warforged buddy in the desert. He'd heat up like a car in a Disney parking lot. "Nice one, Iron Man. High five! ......ah.....AHHHH!"
Frogmantis 08-07-07, 05:10 PM	Crap, remind me not to hug my Warforged buddy in the desert. He'd heat up like a car in a Disney parking lot. "Nice one, Iron Man. High five! ......ah.....AHHHH!" and he'd be nice and chilled on a cool summer night, like a window pane.