| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| WinglessDemon09-02-07, 04:02 AM | ok so i have a player who is a warforged( i open my games to what ever books i have or my playes let me barrow over the weekend to read {most of the time on the great ivory throne}) and he desided to be a dread necro (heros of horror) now i may have just dug my self into quite the pit. I dont know if a warforged can become a lich.. so please help. :D thanks |
| BrutishCelt09-02-07, 04:29 AM | In one line of the warforged racial traits, it says that, as living constructs, warforged are subject to necromancy effects. It could be argued that acquiring the lich template [or any other undead template, i.e. vampire, ghoul, zombie] is akin to a necromancy effect, and therefore the warforged is affected. Weird as it seems, it looks like warforged can become undead. They can be raised and resurrected, necromancy and death effects can affect them, and they can even have their abilities drained [but not their levels, weirdly enough]. I recall a Sage Advice article that addressed what happens when a vampire tries to drain a warforged. The ruling said that it would work, but I'd hate to know just what it is that vampire is getting a mouthful of [motor oil? transmission fluid? antifreeze? ICK!]. |
| Necroramo09-02-07, 09:49 AM | No... "Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, hshe undergoes a hideous transformation adn becomes a lich... a dread necromancer wh o is not humanoid does not gain this class feature. As a Construct(Living Construct), a warforged would not be eligible for becoming a lich, not even via Dread Necromancer. |
| Sleepwalker1366609-02-07, 09:58 AM | No... As a Construct(Living Construct), a warforged would not be eligible for becoming a lich, not even via Dread Necromancer. Well by the rules as mentioned in the quote, no. However it is a dread necros crowing ability, and probably the only reason to stick it out 20 levels. You can always houserule it in. I would picture a warforged "lich" with rusted composite plating and rotting wooden frame. |
| KriegsaffeNo909-02-07, 10:29 AM | I would picture a warforged "lich" with rusted composite plating and rotting wooden frame. I imagine the frame and armor would be as fine as they were on the day they were cast, but supporting a rotten synthetic flesh that peels away to reveal the subtle mechanical workings beneath. |
| Vamroc09-02-07, 11:47 AM | "There is no known way to make a Warforged become undead". So says the Ebberon Campaign Source Book however it is still subject to other effects like Lychanthropy. Yes you can make Were-Forged it gains new parts that allow it to change from one form to another. In theory what you could due is make a Warforged-Vampire that ignores the undead template. The forged-spawn would be considered possesed by a supernatural creature/effect allowing it to gain the powers of a vampire. It wouldn't need to feed but could still do bite and Con damage if it has a hinged jaw. It would have level drain and increased damage to it's slam attack. it would grow stronger over time. The Warforged Vampire wouldn't feel pain or be affected by either sunlight or holy water. It can safely walk in daylight but would loose fast healling and other regenerative effects. This could be source of fun spells such as Repair Construct and Cure Light would still be effective. |
| snakeman83009-02-07, 02:27 PM | No... As a Construct(Living Construct), a warforged would not be eligible for becoming a lich, not even via Dread Necromancer. Transformative classes and PrC's (such as Dread Necromancer and Dragon Disciple) don't care what the base race is. The apothosis happens whether or not the race can normally aquire the template. Yes, this is a way to have a vampire lich, a warforged half-dragon, whatever. |
| Borris09-02-07, 02:57 PM | Transformative classes and PrC's (such as Dread Necromancer and Dragon Disciple) don't care what the base race is. The apothosis happens whether or not the race can normally aquire the template. Except in this case, where the class description itself states that the transformation won't happen unless the character's type is humanoid. When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, hshe undergoes a hideous transformation adn becomes a lich... a dread necromancer wh o is not humanoid does not gain this class feature. But unless the campaign reaches 20th-level, and most don't, this feature won't come into play anyway. Of course, some of the dread necromancer's other abilities might be useless to a warforged (such as anincresed resistance to poison and diseases), and its spellcasting does depend on Charisma, to which a warforged has a penalty, so it doesn't seem like a good class/race combination, but nothing prevents you from playing and enjoying it from level 1 up to level 19, if the campaign ever reaches that high. |
| snakeman83009-02-07, 03:40 PM | Whoops. I missed that as I was skimming through (I don't own the book, don't shoot me). The Dragon Disciple trick works, though. |
| deathbane09-02-07, 03:49 PM | however it is still subject to other effects like Lychanthropy..... Lychanthropy is a disease, and warforged are immune to diseases so there are no wereforged.. |
| deathbane09-02-07, 03:52 PM | :bump: |
| JarionSilverblades09-02-07, 05:17 PM | It's funny you bring this up I just started work on a Undead Template for the warforged that I call "Deathforged", it's more like a zombie or ghoul then a lich though. |
| Talisman09-02-07, 06:08 PM | It comes down to this: do you, the GM, want the warforged Dread Necro to potentially become a lich? Do you want to deal with that PC? If no, stick to the rules. Make it clear to the player, and allow him to change either his race or class, if he so desires. If yes, then to the Abyss with the rules. You're the GM. Allow it. Edit:Lychanthropy is a disease, and warforged are immune to diseases so there are no wereforged.. Wrong. Lycanthropy "can be spread like a disease," but it is not an actual disease. It is a magical affliction (afflicted lycan) or natural state of existance (natural lycan). |
| KurenaiYami09-02-07, 06:19 PM | Wrong. Lycanthropy "can be spread like a disease," but it is not an actual disease. It is a magical affliction (afflicted lycan) or natural state of existance (natural lycan). Wrong. Notice how in class descriptions when somebody becomes immune to magical disease, the two that are always mentioned are Mummy Rot and Lycanthropy. It is a disease. |
| Xaean09-02-07, 06:25 PM | The Dragon Disciple trick works, though. Only if you find a DM that allows it...against all common sense! Lycanthropy only affects humanoids and giants, not living constructs. And as far as vampires go - warforged have no blood, so how should they be turned into vampires? About liches: Wether it works with the rules or not, there is one more question that comes to mind? Why would a warforged want to become a lich. Humanoid casters seek lichdom as a way to immortality, but warforged don't age anyway, so why should they care? |
| TiwazTyrsfist09-02-07, 06:33 PM | RAW, Warforged are not humanoid, and therefore would not become a lich that way. RAW, Warforged cannot become undead. You are, however, completely free to house-rule this. There's an odd oblique refference in Forge of War about something called Woeforged, which are undead-like negative energy powered warforged. No crunch, very little detail in the fluff. But it's a starting point... |
| Vamroc09-02-07, 08:05 PM | Lychanthropy is a disease, and warforged are immune to diseases so there are no wereforged. Warforged have an organic substance that mimics blood it never states that they are immune to magical diseases. This has been an ongoing fight for a long time it all comes down what you believe. I see it as a curse that causes a disease Warforged are not immune to being cursed. So when bitten it could change and resemble an effigy of that particular werecreature. I tried to use the argument that since a warforged isn't made of flesh it can't be turned to stone by a petrification effect. I made the save by 1 so it wasn't an issue later I was told if I had failed I would have turn to stone. Warforged can be cursed or effected by almost any magic. They are "alive" they are subject to effects that indicate target creature, the subject, creature touched ect... . As they don't have flesh certain spells will not effect them. A Warforged druid can wildshape or even become an Acolyte of the Skin. Due to the fact that when the wildshape process happens they become an animal with skin. Thus when they are in animal form they're prone to all the diseases of the flesh even Vampirism. The only thing that stops the progression is the normal Warforged form but if they wildshape the disease would continue. Until they became either a vampire version of that creature and no longer Warforged or they are dead if it's a fast and fatal plague. This might provide some answers to those want to bend the rules and make a Lichforge or something else like it. |
| deathbane09-02-07, 09:54 PM | Warforged have an organic substance that mimics blood it never states that they are immune to magical diseases. This has been an ongoing fight for a long time it all comes down what you believe. I see it as a curse that causes a disease Warforged are not immune to being cursed. So when bitten it could change and resemble an effigy of that particular werecreature. I tried to use the argument that since a warforged isn't made of flesh it can't be turned to stone by a petrification effect. I made the save by 1 so it wasn't an issue later I was told if I had failed I would have turn to stone. Warforged can be cursed or effected by almost any magic. They are "alive" they are subject to effects that indicate target creature, the subject, creature touched ect... . As they don't have flesh certain spells will not effect them. A Warforged druid can wildshape or even become an Acolyte of the Skin. Due to the fact that when the wildshape process happens they become an animal with skin. Thus when they are in animal form they're prone to all the diseases of the flesh even Vampirism. The only thing that stops the progression is the normal Warforged form but if they wildshape the disease would continue. Until they became either a vampire version of that creature and no longer Warforged or they are dead if it's a fast and fatal plague. This might provide some answers to those want to bend the rules and make a Lichforge or something else like it. Lychanthropy can only affect humans and giants so they are still immune to it, but the question to magical diseases does remain, such as mummy rot. |
| Talisman09-02-07, 11:00 PM | From Ye Olde SRD (my emphasis): "Lycanthropy can be spread like a disease..." And later... "A lycanthrope in animal form...carries the disease of lycanthropy." Strangely enough, lycanthropy isn't listed on the Disease table in the DMG...but is (as KurenaiYami pointed out) referred to as a disease in both the Monk (purity of body) and Paladin (divine health) sections of the PHB. So, it's not a disease...except whan it is. :headbang: Anyway, it's completely irrelevant to this thread. :embarrass |
| Mercurius09-02-07, 11:14 PM | Only if you find a DM that allows it...against all common sense! In the immortal words of Judge Reinhold, "... I'll allow it." Nothing to say that a warforged built with some sort of dragonshard implant couldn't eventually manifest draconic aspects. I've been hoping to play just such a character myself, one day... |
| deathbane09-02-07, 11:20 PM | From Ye Olde SRD (my emphasis): "Lycanthropy can be spread like a disease..." And later... "A lycanthrope in animal form...carries the disease of lycanthropy." Strangely enough, lycanthropy isn't listed on the Disease table in the DMG...but is (as KurenaiYami pointed out) referred to as a disease in both the Monk (purity of body) and Paladin (divine health) sections of the PHB. So, it's not a disease...except whan it is. :headbang: Anyway, it's completely irrelevant to this thread. :embarrass An oversight by WOTC, but you are right. That is not the topic and I will stay off it until it is in another thead:tiphat: |
| Ace_of_time09-03-07, 12:37 PM | You could just change the lich template to make it a worforge lich. Change touch it make light wounds that works on warforged and the like. And things like that. |
| DMgodess09-03-07, 01:42 PM | no......just.....no....... |
| DMgodess09-03-07, 01:44 PM | i meen if you seriously want to F*ck with the rules go ahead, it all depends on how close you want to stay to what is actually allowed, you can always be creative and think up different ways for it to work...... it all depends on what kind of game your playing, if it is a beginners level i would definetly say HELL NO!!!!!! |
| Ace_of_time09-03-07, 04:38 PM | I agree. You shouldn't be allowing new players to play lich or any undead for that matter till they had a understanding of the rule. |
| Meep32609-03-07, 06:55 PM | I'd personally have no problem with it, 'cause technically Warforged *can* be a vampire. Just 'cause the one in the 'core' books doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can't, there's an alternate Vampire template (you get all the same stuff) that says it can litterally be applied to any living, corpreal creature. This template is located in Ghostwalk in the monsters section. |
| concerro09-03-07, 09:50 PM | I'd personally have no problem with it, 'cause technically Warforged *can* be a vampire. Just 'cause the one in the 'core' books doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can't, there's an alternate Vampire template (you get all the same stuff) that says it can litterally be applied to any living, corpreal creature. This template is located in Ghostwalk in the monsters section. The template in ghostwalk does not apply to "any" living creature. It actually has a list of creatures that it applies to, and neither construct or living construct(if you want to be specific) are on the list. I can't print the list here due to copyright reasons, but it is on page 166 under "creating a monstrous vampire". |
| Meep32609-04-07, 02:05 AM | The template in ghostwalk does not apply to "any" living creature. It actually has a list of creatures that it applies to, and neither construct or living construct(if you want to be specific) are on the list. I can't print the list here due to copyright reasons, but it is on page 166 under "creating a monstrous vampire". Hm... I apperently stand corrected. Still say I'd allow it, doesn't make much sense not to allow it, just 'cause they havn't had the sense to either update the rules, or whatnot. |
| deathbane09-04-07, 02:40 AM | Hm... I apperently stand corrected. Still say I'd allow it, doesn't make much sense not to allow it, just 'cause they havn't had the sense to either update the rules, or whatnot. Constructs have no reason to suck blood, and I consider it a stretch to say it can be a vampire just because it is alive, however if you wish to allow it when you DM that is your decision. |
| Meep32609-04-07, 03:14 AM | Interestingly enough, wizards both agrees and disagrees with this issue. From the FAQ: Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an undead? A warforged isn’t immune to necromancy effects, so it can be animated as or transformed into an undead, as long as the effect, template, or monster description doesn’t otherwise bar it. For example, only humanoids and monstrous humanoids can become vampire spawn (according to the vampire’s create spawn special attack), so a warforged couldn’t become a vampire spawn. Another example: The zombie template states that it “can be added to any corporeal creature . . . that has a skeletal system.” (MM 265) A warforged is certainly a corporeal creature, but it doesn’t seem like a warforged has a skeletal system, so it couldn’t be animated as a zombie. So they can become undead, just not most undead. |
| ArcTan09-04-07, 03:24 AM | In one line of the warforged racial traits, it says that, as living constructs, warforged are subject to necromancy effects. It could be argued that acquiring the lich template [or any other undead template, i.e. vampire, ghoul, zombie] is akin to a necromancy effect, and therefore the warforged is affected. ...Except that Warforged are not Humanoids, and therefore any template that only applies to Humanoids doesn't apply to Warforged. Warforged cannot become Liches, because Liches must be Humanoids. Warforged cannot become Ghouls, because a Ghoul can only be made from a Humanoid. (Ghoul is not a template, but the Ghoul's monster desc says only Humanoids rise as Ghouls.) Zombie is arguable, but Warforged certainly do not possess anything truly akin to a biological skeletal system (even if you want to call their internal structure "skeletal", which is pushing it) and really RAW seems to clearly say no. Rules aside, the *flavor text* of Warforged says they cannot become Undead, and so we should side in the favor of interpretations that bar WF Undead. |
| ArcTan09-04-07, 03:27 AM | "There is no known way to make a Warforged become undead". So says the Ebberon Campaign Source Book however it is still subject to other effects like Lychanthropy. Yes you can make Were-Forged it gains new parts that allow it to change from one form to another. No, you *can't*. "Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature) In theory what you could due is make a Warforged-Vampire that ignores the undead template. The forged-spawn would be considered possesed by a supernatural creature/effect allowing it to gain the powers of a vampire. It wouldn't need to feed but could still do bite and Con damage if it has a hinged jaw. It would have level drain and increased damage to it's slam attack. it would grow stronger over time. The Warforged Vampire wouldn't feel pain or be affected by either sunlight or holy water. It can safely walk in daylight but would loose fast healling and other regenerative effects. This could be source of fun spells such as Repair Construct and Cure Light would still be effective. "In theory" you can make whatever you want, sure. Rule Zero. |
| ArcTan09-04-07, 03:28 AM | From Ye Olde SRD (my emphasis): "Lycanthropy can be spread like a disease..." And later... "A lycanthrope in animal form...carries the disease of lycanthropy." Strangely enough, lycanthropy isn't listed on the Disease table in the DMG...but is (as KurenaiYami pointed out) referred to as a disease in both the Monk (purity of body) and Paladin (divine health) sections of the PHB. So, it's not a disease...except whan it is. :headbang: Anyway, it's completely irrelevant to this thread. :embarrass It's not a disease for natural lycanthropes, who are born that way. It is a disease for afflicted lycanthropes, who catch it from natural lycanthropes. There, see? |
| ArcTan09-04-07, 03:31 AM | I'd personally have no problem with it, 'cause technically Warforged *can* be a vampire. Just 'cause the one in the 'core' books doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can't, there's an alternate Vampire template (you get all the same stuff) that says it can litterally be applied to any living, corpreal creature. This template is located in Ghostwalk in the monsters section. Ghostwalk is an alternate campaign setting to the default D&D campaign setting, as well as to Eberron. The most important feature of Ghostwalk -- the non-Undead, "natural" Ghosts that emerge from all living things -- does not exist in Eberron. By default nothing else in Ghostwalk would either, any more than Eberron has stuff from other D&D/d20 settings like priestesses of Lolth or spelljamming vessels or lightsabers. It's a *setting*, not a supplement. Warforged don't exist in the world of Ghostwalk, and Ghostwalk vampires don't exist in the world of Eberron. |
| ArcTan09-04-07, 03:34 AM | Interestingly enough, wizards both agrees and disagrees with this issue. From the FAQ: Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an undead? A warforged isn’t immune to necromancy effects, so it can be animated as or transformed into an undead, as long as the effect, template, or monster description doesn’t otherwise bar it. For example, only humanoids and monstrous humanoids can become vampire spawn (according to the vampire’s create spawn special attack), so a warforged couldn’t become a vampire spawn. Another example: The zombie template states that it “can be added to any corporeal creature . . . that has a skeletal system.” (MM 265) A warforged is certainly a corporeal creature, but it doesn’t seem like a warforged has a skeletal system, so it couldn’t be animated as a zombie. So they can become undead, just not most undead. ...In which case I would say the flavor in the Eberron Campaign Setting trumps a random rules ruling from the FAQ. Whether or not you can come up with some tacky RAW loophole to force Warforged to become Undead, the *idea* of Warforged is that they're not supposed to become any kind of Undead, ever (because no one can touch or manipulate a Warforged soul, and no one knows for sure that they really are alive and not simply Constructs, despite the "living construct" moniker). I would be *far* more comfortable breaking this rule for something that actually made sense in the *plot* -- i.e. some super-special form of Undead WF like the "Woeforged" whose existence hints at the secret of what makes Warforged alive -- and not something that only exists in the campaign because of a technicality. |
| TiwazTyrsfist09-04-07, 11:46 AM | Just remember, Even WotC breaks the rules. What? What do I mean? Half-Dragon Mummy. Go check Eyes of the Lich Queen. Half-Dragon == Dragon type Mummy == Humanoid type only template Half-Dragon Mummy == Just as not legal as Warforged Lich Sidebar - "We know this isn't technically legal, but we wanted to do it, so we did." |
| Part-Human209-04-07, 01:26 PM | I think it's one thing for a DM to allow unique NPCs by illegally applying templates; it's another thing to allow a player to break any template restrictions to get what they want. I know of one DM that places player fun as a high priority and role playing a lich warforged might be a challenge too, but you have to be careful of players that just want power by any means. |
| Vamroc09-04-07, 10:45 PM | Lichforged shouldn't be allowed it's just to broken. Then what a Lichforged Lord it would be almost godlike even at low epic levels. You would look the same because any parts that rust or decay would be replaced. Now you have all this power and no drawbacks. A much better idea would be a Flesh Golem with the Lich template broken you bet cool HELL YEAH. |
| Meep32609-04-07, 11:02 PM | How is the Lich Template 'increadibly powerful'? It's +4 to LA and a lot of gold to become really hard to kill with a few stat bumps. |
| Vamroc09-05-07, 12:13 AM | ...Except that Warforged are not Humanoids, and therefore any template that only applies to Humanoids doesn't apply to Warforged. Warforged cannot become Liches, because Liches must be Humanoids. Warforged cannot become Ghouls, because a Ghoul can only be made from a Humanoid. (Ghoul is not a template, but the Ghoul's monster desc says only Humanoids rise as Ghouls.) Zombie is arguable, but Warforged certainly do not possess anything truly akin to a biological skeletal system (even if you want to call their internal structure "skeletal", which is pushing it) and really RAW seems to clearly say no. Rules aside, the *flavor text* of Warforged says they cannot become Undead, and so we should side in the favor of interpretations that bar WF Undead. Actually the book states "they appear as massive humanoids" and never really states if Warforged are humanoid. Here is the official WOTC rules as to what is concidered a humanoid. This is what the experts have to say Humanoid Shapes Fey Giant Humanoid Monstrous Humanoid Outsider Vermin In this case, "humanoid" refers to a creature that walks upright on two legs, and has two arms, a head, and a torso. A humanoid might have a few extra limbs, such as an extra pair of arms, a pair of wings or a tail (or perhaps wings and a tail). The suggestions presented here are intended as general guidelines only. For example, most outsiders have generally humanoid bodies, but not all of them do. Likewise, some animals have bodies that fit the humanoid plan. Humanoid refers to a creature that walks upright on two legs Warforge fit that part. A Warforge has two arms a head and a torso as well. It certainly sounds like Warforged are humanoid to me. |
| StruckingFuggle09-05-07, 12:30 AM | Only if you find a DM that allows it...against all common sense! And as far as vampires go - warforged have no blood, so how should they be turned into vampires? Built as such? Maybe something in blood lubricates their parts and they draw power from it to keep running? / reforged in the middle of life using the same idea? Seems to me to make as much sense as warforged make... About liches: Wether it works with the rules or not, there is one more question that comes to mind? Why would a warforged want to become a lich. Humanoid casters seek lichdom as a way to immortality, but warforged don't age anyway, so why should they care? Sure, neither of them age, but there's more to it than that - warforged still die if you beat them to death. Liches don't. Thus: lich immortality > warforged immortality. Lichforged shouldn't be allowed it's just to broken. Then what a Lichforged Lord it would be almost godlike even at low epic levels. How would it be moreso than nonwarforged liches? You would look the same because any parts that rust or decay would be replaced. So? Now you have all this power and no drawbacks. "You begin to rot and look ugly" isn't really one of the big drawbacks of the lich template... A much better idea would be a Flesh Golem with the Lich template broken you bet cool HELL YEAH. ... how is a Flesh Golem with 11 levels in a spellcasting class and the Lich template anything even approaching broken? In this case, "humanoid" refers to a creature that walks upright on two legs, and has two arms, a head, and a torso. A humanoid might have a few extra limbs, such as an extra pair of arms, a pair of wings or a tail (or perhaps wings and a tail). The suggestions presented here are intended as general guidelines only. For example, most outsiders have generally humanoid bodies, but not all of them do. Likewise, some animals have bodies that fit the humanoid plan. Humanoid refers to a creature that walks upright on two legs Warforge fit that part. A Warforge has two arms a head and a torso as well. It certainly sounds like Warforged are humanoid to me. Incorrect. When a D&D book uses the term "humanoid", it means "of the Type 'humanoid'", not "generally shaped like a human" - plus, in d&d the extra limbs, wings, tails, etc tend to be indicative of the "monsterous humanoid" type, rather than the "humanoid" type. |
| deathbane09-05-07, 01:19 AM | Actually the book states "they appear as massive humanoids" and never really states if Warforged are humanoid. Here is the official WOTC rules as to what is concidered a humanoid. This is what the experts have to say Humanoid Shapes Fey Giant Humanoid Monstrous Humanoid Outsider Vermin In this case, "humanoid" refers to a creature that walks upright on two legs, and has two arms, a head, and a torso. A humanoid might have a few extra limbs, such as an extra pair of arms, a pair of wings or a tail (or perhaps wings and a tail). The suggestions presented here are intended as general guidelines only. For example, most outsiders have generally humanoid bodies, but not all of them do. Likewise, some animals have bodies that fit the humanoid plan. Humanoid refers to a creature that walks upright on two legs Warforge fit that part. A Warforge has two arms a head and a torso as well. It certainly sounds like Warforged are humanoid to me. The MM(where the official rules are located) says humanoid usually refers to creatures with a torso, head, 2 arms and 2 legs. You also missed the sentence where it said humanoids are usually small or medium. I guess if you could read you would have noticed that they went to the trouble of listing monstrous humanoids and humanoids as separate for the vampire entry. Also if you look in the PHB outsiders, giant, monstrous humanoids, are listed seperately again under the ranger's favored enemies, and if they were all the same then the vampire list in Ghost walk would not go through the trouble of having a list for all monsters that can become vampires. The experts are the people who wrote the book, and according to the books they are not the same. They only look the same. The MM: says monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids. Similar does not mean the same. says giants have humanoid shapes which does not make them humanoid If you look in the MM each monster description will tell you if they are humanoid or not. I am sure the writers would not go through the trouble to say that a template applies to a and b if they want it to apply to a-z. |
| deathbane09-05-07, 01:24 AM | It has already been shown that according to the rules warforged can not get either template, however if your DM will allow it or if you are a DM that is up to you. I only point to the rules, it is up to you, as players and DM's to decide if you will change them for the sake of your own games. |
| Vamroc09-05-07, 01:38 AM | How is the Lich Template 'increadibly powerful'? It's +4 to LA and a lot of gold to become really hard to kill with a few stat bumps. As a warforge you would ignore a lot of the weaknesses that Liches have. You wouldn't be able to turn it and you could keep your constitution score. Because the body is unable to die warforged can't become undead. The only way to make the concept work is to remove the undead aspect of the template. |
| KurenaiYami09-05-07, 01:39 AM | From Ye Olde SRD (my emphasis): "Lycanthropy can be spread like a disease..." And later... "A lycanthrope in animal form...carries the disease of lycanthropy." Strangely enough, lycanthropy isn't listed on the Disease table in the DMG...but is (as KurenaiYami pointed out) referred to as a disease in both the Monk (purity of body) and Paladin (divine health) sections of the PHB. So, it's not a disease...except whan it is. :headbang: Anyway, it's completely irrelevant to this thread. :embarrass You know what spreads like a disease? A disease. How does it saying "it spreads like a disease" even remotely imply that it's not a disease? |
| StruckingFuggle09-05-07, 01:42 AM | You wouldn't be able to turn it and you could keep your constitution score. Where are you getting the idea that either of those would be true? |
| Vamroc09-05-07, 02:48 AM | The MM(where the official rules are located) says humanoid usually refers to creatures with a torso, head, 2 arms and 2 legs. You also missed the sentence where it said humanoids are usually small or medium. I guess if you could read you would have noticed that they went to the trouble of listing monstrous humanoids and humanoids as separate for the vampire entry. Also if you look in the PHB outsiders, giant, monstrous humanoids, are listed seperately again under the ranger's favored enemies, and if they were all the same then the vampire list in Ghost walk would not go through the trouble of having a list for all monsters that can become vampires. The experts are the people who wrote the book, and according to the books they are not the same. They only look the same. The MM: says monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids. Similar does not mean the same. says giants have humanoid shapes which does not make them humanoid If you look in the MM each monster description will tell you if they are humanoid or not. I am sure the writers would not go through the trouble to say that a template applies to a and b if they want it to apply to a-z. Warforged are medium creatures the term "massive" is used discribe their muscular looking build. If you read my post I was responding to a person who said they are not humanoid. This was based on the fact they are not made of flesh and I propose that one need not be organic to be a humanoid. A warforge is not a monsterous humanoid. The fact that a creature has a humanoid shape is why its called a HUMANOID. If that being has a family history involving one human parent and one non human parent than its a Monsterous Humanoid. Its universally accepted that thousands of years ago elementals bred with humans and this gave rise to the giants. |
| StruckingFuggle09-05-07, 02:52 AM | A warforge is not a monsterous humanoid. The fact that a creature has a humanoid shape is why its called a HUMANOID. You're right. They're a Construct with the Living subtype. Humanoid, in the sense that the Lich template can only be applied to humanoids, doesn't mean "humanoid" in the way the dictionary does - in that sense it's a technical term with a specific definition, that includes a particular set of creatures (those of the Humanoid type), which happen to also exclude Warforged. They may be humanoid in the sense that they resemble humans, but they are not humanoid in the sense that they have the Humanoid type, which is what's at issue here. |
| Meep32609-05-07, 03:15 AM | As a warforge you would ignore a lot of the weaknesses that Liches have. What weaknesses does a lich have that can be subverted by being a warforged? You wouldn't be able to turn it and you could keep your constitution score. Their type changes to undead, they gain all the stregnths and weaknesses that normal undead have. So yes, they can still be turned and they do lose there constitution score. Because the body is unable to die warforged can't become undead. The warforged body can die, once they reach less than -10 Hp they die just like any other living creature without regeneration. And, as I pulled from the FAQ, they can become undead. The only way to make the concept work is to remove the undead aspect of the template. What...? |
| Vamroc09-05-07, 03:29 AM | Where are you getting the idea that either of those would be true? First of all it says you don't have a Con score due to the fact you are undead. Since you wouldn't be undead as a Lichforge you get to have one. If your not undead than you can't be turned by clerics. Unless you just happened to run in to that one cleric who focused on affecting constructs. In which case you would still have a +4 turn resistance. |
| deathbane09-05-07, 03:37 AM | You're right. They're a Construct with the Living subtype. Humanoid, in the sense that the Lich template can only be applied to humanoids, doesn't mean "humanoid" in the way the dictionary does - in that sense it's a technical term with a specific definition, that includes a particular set of creatures (those of the Humanoid type), which happen to also exclude Warforged. They may be humanoid in the sense that they resemble humans, but they are not humanoid in the sense that they have the Humanoid type, which is what's at issue here. I agree, but Vamroc seems to think that having a humanoid shape, and being alive is what that means. It seems he can't separate the two. He may be playing devil's advocate, but he is not doing a good job, especially with the other post that says that Meep responded to. |
| deathbane09-05-07, 03:47 AM | First of all it says you don't have a Con score due to the fact you are undead. Since you wouldn't be undead as a Lichforge you get to have one. If your not undead than you can't be turned by clerics. Unless you just happened to run in to that one cleric who focused on affecting constructs. In which case you would still have a +4 turn resistance. what? :confused: |
| Meep32609-05-07, 03:51 AM | First of all it says you don't have a Con score due to the fact you are undead. Since you wouldn't be undead as a Lichforge you get to have one. If your not undead than you can't be turned by clerics. Unless you just happened to run in to that one cleric who focused on affecting constructs. In which case you would still have a +4 turn resistance. Where the hell are you getting that you're not undead? Does a human who becomes a Lich not become undead? Or a Dragon (via Dracolich)? It's the same principle, a living creature's type changes to Undead with an Undead Template. |
| Vamroc09-05-07, 03:54 AM | What weaknesses does a lich have that can be subverted by being a warforged? Their type changes to undead, they gain all the stregnths and weaknesses that normal undead have. So yes, they can still be turned and they do lose there constitution score. The warforged body can die, once they reach less than -10 Hp they die just like any other living creature without regeneration. And, as I pulled from the FAQ, they can become undead. What...? It's a mental death and once the magic that binds the mind to the body is gone then it's an empty shell. That doesn't rot or deacy like flesh it simply rusts while wood inside becomes brittle like twiggs on a forest floor. No they can't become undead this is a direct quote "There is no known way for a Warforged to be come undead" so says The Eberron Campaign Setting Souce Book. You want to tell Keith Baker he's wrong go a head. |
| StruckingFuggle09-05-07, 04:05 AM | No they can't become undead this is a direct quote "There is no known way for a Warforged to be come undead" so says The Eberron Campaign Setting Souce Book. You want to tell Keith Baker he's wrong go a head. I wouldn't tell him that, but I'd say "I see what you mean and acknowledge that that's the default, but I'm going to run it differently in my game because I like the idea so much." And I'm going to do so because my books won't burst into flame just because I'm not 100% playing Keith Baker's version of Eberron. (also, I'd like to also point out that there's a big difference, fraught with potential plot hooks, between "there's no know way to make an undead warforged" and "warforged cannot become undead"...) In that vein, too... First of all it says you don't have a Con score due to the fact you are undead. Since you wouldn't be undead as a Lichforge you get to have one. If your not undead than you can't be turned by clerics. Unless you just happened to run in to that one cleric who focused on affecting constructs. In which case you would still have a +4 turn resistance. I think most of us who like the idea of "Lichforged" or other undead warforged acknowledge that it's bending or breaking the rules, and I think for the discussion of a so-called Lichforged (personally, I favor "Necroforged", but that's I guess more of a catchall for a panopoly of undead warforged) operates on the assumption that the 'big change' (beyond extending Lich beyond it's silly 'humanoid' limitation) is that we base it on the change that Warforged can become undead. The vast majority of Lichforged would likely operate under houserules that make them able to become undead, and thus would make them undead. So in which case being a Warforged Lich doesn't give you fewer weaknesses. |
| deathbane09-05-07, 04:34 AM | It's a mental death and once the magic that binds the mind to the body is gone then it's an empty shell. That doesn't rot or deacy like flesh it simply rusts while wood inside becomes brittle like twiggs on a forest floor. No they can't become undead this is a direct quote "There is no known way for a Warforged to be come undead" so says The Eberron Campaign Setting Souce Book. You want to tell Keith Baker he's wrong go a head. What page is that on? I have seen enough, and made enough misquotes that I ask for page numbers or links before I :surrender I dont think I would allow a warforged to be undead either, even if the books said they could, but that is just me. ________________________________________ ___________________________ Constitution is not lost because they rot, they rot because there is no constitution, so the constitution leaves whether they rot or not. The Lich actually dies and then comes back to life as a Lich. At the point that they die the constitution is gone, and when they come back to life they are undead so if a warforged could be a lich(which they can't by RAW) they would lose the Con. |
| Prak, the Mad09-05-07, 04:34 AM | i meen if you seriously want to F*ck with the rules go ahead, it all depends on how close you want to stay to what is actually allowed, you can always be creative and think up different ways for it to work...... it all depends on what kind of game your playing, if it is a beginners level i would definetly say HELL NO!!!!!! why not? Why not fvck with the rules? Why not allow living constructs to become undead? I say hang the rules, and let the player become a Warforged Lich. Hell, this is akin to a core explanation of incorporating epic or any other new rules. "Maybe there just aren't any (X) because noone ever reached that point. Maybe the player is the first to do it." Maybe Warforged can become undead but no one's tried to do so before. Hell, watch some tv and you'll see at least one thing like this... the werecar of futurama, the mech-werewolf of Buzz Lightyear... the Robot Vampire of Buzz Lightyear... I say let the player become a Lich at 20th level, because it's controlling bullsh!t to deny him a class feature just because he's black... I mean metal and wood... |
| Vamroc09-05-07, 04:36 AM | Where the hell are you getting that you're not undead? Does a human who becomes a Lich not become undead? Or a Dragon (via Dracolich)? It's the same principle, a living creature's type changes to Undead with an Undead Template. Yes but those creatures have living bodies that undergo changes when death happens. A warforge doesn't went it dies it just goes offline untill it gets ressurected. While it's dead nothing changes mabye four or five years later its rusted and dried up. Untill then time would pass by with little sign of its age. Now compare that to a human body in five years you would have nothing but bones. |
| deathbane09-05-07, 04:57 AM | Yes but those creatures have living bodies that undergo changes when death happens. A warforge doesn't went it dies it just goes offline untill it gets ressurected. While it's dead nothing changes mabye four or five years later its rusted and dried up. Untill then time would pass by with little sign of its age. Now compare that to a human body in five years you would have nothing but bones. The ritual is what makes a lich, not the appearance. The warforged is being brought to undeath, not to life so there will be no Con. A Warforged that is below -10 is just a body(inanimate object) which has no Con. No Con equals death. If the warforged were alive then a cure or repair spell would bring him back from below -10. |
| Spikes01k09-05-07, 08:42 AM | No... As a Construct(Living Construct), a warforged would not be eligible for becoming a lich, not even via Dread Necromancer. So then dracoliches are an exception to that rule? |
| deathbane09-05-07, 09:21 AM | So then dracoliches are an exception to that rule? Dracoliches are a different template than regular liches. I guess the method for making a human a lich does not work with dragons. Don't ask me why. I just call it like it's written(most of the time). |
| TiwazTyrsfist09-05-07, 11:10 AM | First of all it says you don't have a Con score due to the fact you are undead. Since you wouldn't be undead as a Lichforge you get to have one. If your not undead than you can't be turned by clerics. Unless you just happened to run in to that one cleric who focused on affecting constructs. In which case you would still have a +4 turn resistance. I really don't understand where you're getting this stuff... You're doing that thing that makes me hurt people, stating you opinions as if they were facts. Since we are MAKING A HOUSE RULE OVERRIDING THE CORE RULES WE CAN CHANGE THINGS AS WE LIKE. SO, Warforged Lich. Becomes Undead type. Looses it's Con score, because it's undead. Necromantic energies coursing through it's body kills the normally resilient Live Wood. The metal plating develops light piting and rust, the wood and leather parts decay and become brittle. The warforged now has an unsettling decayed appearance. HOUSE RULE! |
| WinglessDemon09-05-07, 04:05 PM | It's a mental death and once the magic that binds the mind to the body is gone then it's an empty shell. That doesn't rot or deacy like flesh it simply rusts while wood inside becomes brittle like twiggs on a forest floor. No they can't become undead this is a direct quote "There is no known way for a Warforged to be come undead" so says The Eberron Campaign Setting Souce Book. You want to tell Keith Baker he's wrong go a head. is rusting metal, and brittle twigs any different from rotting flesh? rust is metal rot and wood does indeed rot normally. |
| StruckingFuggle09-05-07, 05:54 PM | rust is metal rot This isn't at all true, but I think it's still close enough for the purposes of aesthetics. :) Though still... while a "Necroforged"'s wood parts should rot, the metal should be able to stay as shiny and upkept as any other Warforged for as long as it's unlife continues. |
| JarionSilverblades09-05-07, 06:14 PM | Though still... while a "Necroforged"'s wood parts should rot, the metal should be able to stay as shiny and upkept as any other Warforged for as long as it's unlife continues. I’m working on a template I hope to post Friday or Saturday called a "Deathforged" and part of the description I created says that "It's once shimmering armor now dulled and torn, rust edges every ripe, as dark foul smelling fluids flow freely from them." The idea of the body rusting or rotting if it's wood is really more for dramatic effect. I mean a zombie that didn't have decaying flesh hanging off of it and just looked normal really loses something. |
| StruckingFuggle09-05-07, 06:26 PM | Oh, I agree it looks better! I even said, it works for aesthetic purposes. Still, I think that without some monkeying and needless "it's magicism", a 'deathforged', if it so desired, should be able to keep its metal plates in a state of polish and repair, same as normal warforged. Maybe it doesn't want to, but it's still just metal... ... hm. Maybe the negative energies animating it corrode and warp and pit and rust the metal as a magical affliction? ... actually, that'd be kinda neat. I guess I was mostly disagreeing with the idea that they must because wood and metal would 'decay' in the same way. *^_^* (Though personally I see some value in undead that can pass as humans. Like with Vampires, too - sometimes you think they're a bit odd, but okay - and then there's the dawning horror or even the sudden realization that they're something more and much more sinister.) |
| ArcTan09-05-07, 08:23 PM | Actually the book states "they appear as massive humanoids" and never really states if Warforged are humanoid. Here is the official WOTC rules as to what is concidered a humanoid. Um, no. The Warforged stat block says "Construct (Living Construct)". This is what the experts have to say Humanoid Shapes Fey Giant Humanoid Monstrous Humanoid Outsider Vermin "Humanoid" is not the same, in D&D, as "Humanoid-Shaped", any more than being "pie-shaped" makes something a pie. FWIW, Constructs can be and often are humanoid-shaped -- Golems, Inevitables, standard Homunculi, Nimblewrights are all two-arms-two-legs-and-a-head -- but they are not Humanoids. Neither is a Warforged. Humanoids are, well, Humanoids. It's a creature type. It means you have that type and not one of the other ones, like Monstrous Humanoid or Outsider. |
| ArcTan09-05-07, 08:27 PM | The main reason I'm opposed to WF becoming Undead is I like the flavor that Living Constructs are *already* a kind of Undead, sort of. They're caught between life and unlife, the way regular Undead are caught between life and death. That's why, in Eberron, the Blood of Vol has sects that already accept and revere Warforged as examples of "defeating death" in the same way that their Vampire and Lich masters have. Saying WF are alive, therefore they can become undead just like everyone else muddies the water -- WF *aren't* alive like everyone else. Their life is a different and strange form of life. If there is WF undeath, it, too, should be different and strange (i.e. the Woeforged), not just a WF version of regular, run-of-the-mill Monster Manual Undead. At the very least, give them a different template, like with Dracoliches. |
| deathbane09-05-07, 08:35 PM | I see it the same way, and while they can be undead, according to the FAQ, the type of undead they can become is very limited. I think a negatively charged WF would be nice, but not an undead one. I can't buy the idea of an undead construct. On another note I never understood why they only get half healing, but take all the damage from negative energy spells. |
| ToastedAmphibian09-05-07, 11:28 PM | They are powered by positive energy right? Mabey negative energy spells just reduce that energy. Perhapes you could house rule that positive energy heals 100% but only when healing damage done by negative energy spells? Mabey negative energy just disrupts the flow of energy inside creatures and causes there inner mechanics to malfunction causing true physical damage. Perhapes its just a balance issue that they didnt really put a whole lot of reasoned thought into |
| deathbane09-05-07, 11:49 PM | They are powered by positive energy right? Mabey negative energy spells just reduce that energy. Perhapes you could house rule that positive energy heals 100% but only when healing damage done by negative energy spells? Mabey negative energy just disrupts the flow of energy inside creatures and causes there inner mechanics to malfunction causing true physical damage. Perhapes its just a balance issue that they didnt really put a whole lot of reasoned thought into I already made a house rule for it, but I did not post the house rule because my mind is made up, and I hate when other people post things, when their mind is made up. The thought just came across my mind again as I was writing that last post, but I do think you are right when you say they did not put a lot of thought into explaining why it is that way. |
| calronmoonflower09-06-07, 02:20 AM | So then dracoliches are an exception to that rule? No. They have a seperate template that can only be applied to dragons. |
| Johnnes09-07-07, 09:59 PM | Hi boys, I got this in one topic from Monster`s Lair, but I don`t remember from who... sorry copy your work dude. ;) Unforged An Unforged is a powerful spellcaster who was originally a Warforged. Fearing their inevitable end... an undigified powering down, rusting into a thousand shattered pieces, being forgotten as just another machine. They put their soul into a core machine, using forbidden magics to craft a crude effigy of themselves so they can still travel and become stronger. The Unforged's Phylactery is actually a construct of it's own right, though immobile, it contains the memories and thoughts of the original Warforged. Appearance: An Unforged's mortal body looks like a mockery of what it was in life. Rusted, with parts of the outer shell missing and the livewood rotten and held together only by the negative energy pulsing through it. It usually has small, red pinpricks of light where it's eyes should be, simpler than what the Unforged had in 'life'. Though it may not look sturdy, it's whole body is extremely well held together with microscopic constructs constantly moving around it like parasites, preventing damage from getting through, though a blow with a hammer or similar shocks them into inaction enough to be ineffective. If this body is destroyed, the Unforged's Phylactery crafts a new one out of scrap metal and finishes work in 1d10 days. This quick, unskilled crafting is the reason why the Unforged's body is so decrepit. The negative energy sustains the construct, similar to the body of an undead, but also makes it susceptable to a positive energy overload, or a system takeover by negative energy. Changes to the Lich: - Lose Constitution Score, Lose Living subtype, stays a Construct. - Gain HP equal to (Int x Hit Die) if positive. (To signify craftmanship) - Needs Craft Construct, not Wondrous Item. - No Fear Aura. Can be turned as if it were undead. |
| JarionSilverblades09-08-07, 06:20 PM | Here is my attempt at a undead warforged, Deathforged (PEACH) |
| Salla09-08-07, 11:07 PM | Just out of curiosity, I ask having jumped to the end of the thread, but did anybody mention that the description of the Dread Necro's little apotheosis ability specifically states that if the D.N. isn't humanoid, nothing happens? |
| Omega_Grey09-08-07, 11:35 PM | Yeah, that has been mentioned. Basically the debate right now is why shouldnt a warforged be allowed to take the lich template. I mean, what abilities would they get that make them drastically more powerful then a regular lich? |
| concerro09-09-07, 02:48 AM | Just out of curiosity, I ask having jumped to the end of the thread, but did anybody mention that the description of the Dread Necro's little apotheosis ability specifically states that if the D.N. isn't humanoid, nothing happens? Some of these lichforged templates are an attempt to make a warforged lich template since there are no rules against them being undead. Warforged theoretically live forever anyway. There are still warforged from back when Xendrik was fighting the Quori, so I really don't see why the others are trying to make them into a lich. |
| ArcTan09-09-07, 09:29 PM | Yeah, that has been mentioned. Basically the debate right now is why shouldnt a warforged be allowed to take the lich template. I mean, what abilities would they get that make them drastically more powerful then a regular lich? Flavor, mainly. Dude, not everything is about game balance. It's the same reason you can't wish to be immortal, or for the world to blow up exactly ten seconds after the campaign ends. |
| WinglessDemon09-10-07, 12:30 AM | you know i was thinking and mindflayers have been featured as liches loads of times. but they are not the "humanoid" type or subtype. They are only Aberrations. odd. |
| Omega_Grey09-10-07, 02:02 AM | you know i was thinking and mindflayers have been featured as liches loads of times. but they are not the "humanoid" type or subtype. They are only Aberrations. odd. They have a special template added called the alhoon (or close to that anyway). Much like the dracolich, it is a special template for a different type of creature. And to Arc Tan, I understand the concept of flavor. I am just saying that why shouldnt a warforged that has dedicated its existence to the study of undeath be able to turn into some form of undead via the lich template? Also, you can wish for those things to happen, just odds are your DM wont be very happy with you and will probably not allow it, or find someway to twist it so it doesnt happen the way you are imagining. |
| Prak, the Mad09-10-07, 09:30 AM | They have a special template added called the alhoon (or close to that anyway). Much like the dracolich, it is a special template for a different type of creature. And to Arc Tan, I understand the concept of flavor. I am just saying that why shouldnt a warforged that has dedicated its existence to the study of undeath be able to turn into some form of undead via the lich template? Also, you can wish for those things to happen, just odds are your DM wont be very happy with you and will probably not allow it, or find someway to twist it so it doesnt happen the way you are imagining. the alhoon template is a fairly recent thing... prior to that it was merely a type of lich, primarily encountered in forgotten realms, and spoken of in Monsters of Fearun. Same for the Dracolich, until the publication of the Draconomicon, it was merely a type of Lich, and no mention of them being "special" was made. The Dracolich and the Alhoon were merely filler for the type books, not neccesity. I'm sure if Wizards were to do a Fae book, we'd see a special Faerie-Lich template. My point is, we really don't need special templates for each creature type, we can just adapt the original template when neccessary, and leave it as it is, with some expanded creature type allowences, of course. Which leads to the question, which creature types should be able to become lichs? I propose the following list: Aberrations Dragons Fae Giants Humanoids/Monstrous Humanoids Magical Beasts(with suitable Int, say 12+?) Outsiders Undead(yes, undead should be able to "evolve" into Liches, provided they meet the prerequisites.) |
| ArcTan09-11-07, 02:51 AM | Which leads to the question, which creature types should be able to become lichs? I propose the following list: Aberrations Dragons Fae Giants Humanoids/Monstrous Humanoids Magical Beasts(with suitable Int, say 12+?) Outsiders Undead(yes, undead should be able to "evolve" into Liches, provided they meet the prerequisites.) Wait, why should Outsiders become Liches? Outsiders lack body/soul duality. They can't become Undead at all, because they count as "destroyed" when killed -- their body *is* their soul and the whole creature is gone if the body is killed, nothing left to make an Undead out of. (Which is also why Outsiders re-form from the essence of their plane sometime after being killed, removing the need for resurrection.) In any case, this list leaves out Constructs, which makes WF Liches still impossible. |
| Omega_Grey09-11-07, 04:34 AM | Well in Libris Mortis they give you an alternate Lich called the Lichfiend, why shouldnt Outsiders be able to? I understand your argument, but what about tieflings and half-fiends and such. They dont follow the same rules as the rest of the outsiders, yet they cant become a lich? And why wouldnt a powerful Outsider entity take precautions to prevent his absorption back into the primordial ooze? Finding a way to bind his soul to the phylactery instead of the plane sounds like a natural goal for many of the demons/devils out there. |
| concerro09-11-07, 09:22 AM | Well in Libris Mortis they give you an alternate Lich called the Lichfiend, why shouldnt Outsiders be able to? I understand your argument, but what about tieflings and half-fiends and such. They dont follow the same rules as the rest of the outsiders, yet they cant become a lich? And why wouldnt a powerful Outsider entity take precautions to prevent his absorption back into the primordial ooze? Finding a way to bind his soul to the phylactery instead of the plane sounds like a natural goal for many of the demons/devils out there. A half-fiend goes by it's original race before the template was added so if it was half human it can become a lich. That is why Eberron has a half-dragon lich that uses the regular lich templatee. A tiefling is a native outsider with it's soul and body being separate so it may qualify for some type of lich template(if the DM allows it), but the powerful outsider(devils, demons, elementals) don't have a separate soul. |
| Omega_Grey09-11-07, 08:46 PM | A half-fiend goes by it's original race before the template was added so if it was half human it can become a lich. That is why Eberron has a half-dragon lich that uses the regular lich templatee. A tiefling is a native outsider with it's soul and body being separate so it may qualify for some type of lich template(if the DM allows it), but the powerful outsider(devils, demons, elementals) don't have a separate soul. No where in the half-fiend template, nor in templates in general, does it say this. All it says is that change base creature's type to outsider (or dragon). And since it even mentions in the adding a template section in the back of the monster manual 'whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature's type-you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. For example a vampire cannot become a lich and vice versa.' So you see, a half-fiend human is treated as an outsider, and outsiders cannot, by RAW become a lich. What I am saying is why cant they? Lich should be something that any being of significant ambition and magical talent can achieve. Let the outsider bind its essence to a phylactery instead of its native plane. Let a warforged that has spent 20 levels of its life chin deep in theories of undeath find a way to bind itself to one as well, I dont think it breaks the game, and certainly doesnt make the character any more powerful then he would be otherwise. Either that or let the class give some alternate ability at level 20 for the non-humanoid types. |
| concerro09-11-07, 09:49 PM | No where in the half-fiend template, nor in templates in general, does it say this. All it says is that change base creature's type to outsider (or dragon). And since it even mentions in the adding a template section in the back of the monster manual 'whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature's type-you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add. For example a vampire cannot become a lich and vice versa.' So you see, a half-fiend human is treated as an outsider, and outsiders cannot, by RAW become a lich. What I am saying is why cant they? Lich should be something that any being of significant ambition and magical talent can achieve. Let the outsider bind its essence to a phylactery instead of its native plane. Let a warforged that has spent 20 levels of its life chin deep in theories of undeath find a way to bind itself to one as well, I dont think it breaks the game, and certainly doesnt make the character any more powerful then he would be otherwise. Either that or let the class give some alternate ability at level 20 for the non-humanoid types. I see right in front of me medium dragon(augmented humanoid), and medium outsider(augmented humanoid)(native). Native outsiders have separate souls and bodies, and the half-fiend is humanoid and so I guess that is a DM's call. The outsider's very essence is bound to the nine hells in the case of devils. If they are killed on the material plane they reform in Baatar with full HP, good as new, although it is a couple of years later. Demons essence returns to the abyss to form new demons. The region they come from, whether it is the abyss or baator is what reforms them. No piddly magic device can do what it takes all of the abyss or baatar to do. Technically speaking, the abyss or the Baator is their phylactery. If they are already immortal why bother with being a lich. If their boss wants to demote them to a lesser form for failing a mission, which is what normally happens after they get killed on the material plane, they can still have them taken care of. For the sake of argument, even if they could be liches the only thing they get is a lower fort save, so now all some adventurers have to do is disintegrate them and destroy the phylactery. This means they are dead(permanently) since they are no longer connected to the abyss or baatar. Sounds like a downgrade to me. The warforged is already immortal because it is a construct, and even though it can be raised there is still no proof of a soul. Another issue is that House Cannith are the only people who know how to build a warforged, so even if they have a soul they would still need to know how to recreate it's body. |
| Omega_Grey09-11-07, 10:19 PM | Just one last thing before I drop out of this thread completely. The augmented subtype doesnt really mean anything. That's just a footnote to let you know what it used to be before the new and improved type took over. So being an outsider (augmented humanoid) doesnt let you qualify for humanoid. Also I never said that being a lich would be the best idea for the balor, but that doesnt mean that the balor lieutenant to Orcus should just be an advanced balor, I can imagine him as a lich of some form. |
| concerro09-11-07, 10:51 PM | Just one last thing before I drop out of this thread completely. The augmented subtype doesnt really mean anything. That's just a footnote to let you know what it used to be before the new and improved type took over. So being an outsider (augmented humanoid) doesnt let you qualify for humanoid. Also I never said that being a lich would be the best idea for the balor, but that doesnt mean that the balor lieutenant to Orcus should just be an advanced balor, I can imagine him as a lich of some form. The template does not take over, it is an add on by the way, as to which is the primary, is something that would have to be decided on a case by case basis. As for the outsider lich it is not to the outsider's advantage mechanically or fluff wise. You would have to explain why it would trade in its immortality for a lich's immortality, and then you would have to explain how some device managed to separate the outsider from his plane, and how this device also does the same thing that an entire plane does. If an outsider were to find a way to do that I would not even destroy the phylactery. I would steal it and hold it hostage. Like I said before his essence is tied to his plane and his plane is apart of him. They are one. There is no magic that could get around this, other than rule 0. P.S. I have explained why it an outsider gains nothing in becoming a lich, so why would an advanced balor do it? Now if you want to give him some undead traits such as immune to mind affecting spells or immunity to crits and negative energy attacks I understand, but lich:nonono: |
| Prak, the Mad09-12-07, 01:47 PM | No piddly magic device can do what it takes all of the abyss or baatar to do. Technically speaking, the abyss or the Baator is their phylactery. "piddly magic devices" already do that. A liches phylactery stores his essence and reforms his body a number of days later. It's the same exact thing. Rule that an outsider has to make his phylactery out of Thinuan for all I care, but their bodies are already set up to be reformed from their core essence ad nauseum. Also, it's not about whether the creature has a body/soul duality, it about whether it runs on positive or negative energy. Outsiders run on positive energy, thus, it should be possible, through "forbidden knowledge man was not meant to know"(TM), to purge the core of the positive energy and fuel it with negative energy. |
| concerro09-12-07, 02:29 PM | "piddly magic devices" already do that. A liches phylactery stores his essence and reforms his body a number of days later. It's the same exact thing. Rule that an outsider has to make his phylactery out of Thinuan for all I care, but their bodies are already set up to be reformed from their core essence ad nauseum. Also, it's not about whether the creature has a body/soul duality, it about whether it runs on positive or negative energy. Outsiders run on positive energy, thus, it should be possible, through "forbidden knowledge man was not meant to know"(TM), to purge the core of the positive energy and fuel it with negative energy. Since the phylactery holds the soul how can a demon's body be one place if his soul is somewhere else if they are one in the same? A human's soul does not die with his body, but an outsider's does, at least until it's home plane reforms it. |
| Prak, the Mad09-12-07, 02:54 PM | I'll assent to that. Hell, this is the game that started "If you don't like, change it", so neither of us is wrong in their own game, but if I'm in your game, I'm wrong, and vice versa. So yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. Thanks for not being the typical moron I encounter on these boards. :) |
| concerro09-12-07, 03:27 PM | I did not see you post that before I changed my post. Feel free to ignore. |
| Prak, the Mad09-12-07, 03:42 PM | Since the phylactery holds the soul how can a demon's body be one place if his soul is somewhere else if they are one in the same? A human's soul does not die with his body, but an outsider's does, at least until it's home plane reforms it. My reasoning is that an outsider lich wouldn't be putting his soul into the phylactery, but rather replacing whatever bond he has with his plane with a bond to the box, so that when he dies, his essence isn't sucked back to the plane, but rather sucked into the phylactery. In a few days, the phylactery has sufficiently repaired the damaged essence to reform the body with pilfered body-essence from the plane and some appropriated negative energy to fuel it. |