Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Geregald 04-30-07, 09:08 AM	I'm a player of 3 years who's new to DM'ing and only recently acquired Eberron books to fuel the design of my world, but I'm intimately familiar with Magic of Incarnum as it's one of my favorite books. I have a situation facing me that may affect my Players or NPCs I wish to generate - namely, a Warforged's Composite Plating (and/or Darkwood / Mithral / Adamantine plating) and its interaction with Chakra Binds to the Soul Chakra. My question, in short: Can Warforged meldshapers Bind melds to the Soul Chakra? Using a strict interpretation of the rules, one would assume that Warforged Meldshapers cannot bind Soulmelds to the Soul Chakra, as the Soul Chakra counts as / occupies the same body slot as Armor the same as a Warforged's Composite Plating. Rule excerpts from primary sources follow: Races of Eberron (p. 8)- "This composite plating occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a warforged cannot benefit from the effects of magic armor or magic robes." Magic of Incarnum (p. 51)- "When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soulmeld in question.)" Some things seem obvious- ** Composite Plating (and similar Plating options) provide Armor Bonuses to AC, and thus would overwrite or be overwritten by any Armor Bonus to AC provided (bound or not) by a meld on the Soul Chakra ** An Unarmored Body Warforged has no conflicts with melds occupying the Soul Chakra ** IF a meld is bound to the Soul Chakra, its effects overwrite any magical enhancements the Warforged's Composite Plating (or similar) may have had as if it displaced a suit of armor from a standard character. However, some matters are questionable- ** Since Composite Plating (or similar) disallows the use of Armor, does it also disallow binding to the Soul Chakra? ** Does a Warforged have to have the Unarmored Body feat or be a 3rd-level Reforged to utilize Chakra Binds to the Soul Chakra? No other standard character race in the game has an armor restriction as explicitly conflictual or specific to Chakra Binds as Warforgeds; as such, this could could be grounds for an Errata Ruling relevent to Magic of Incarnum and/or Races of Eberron for future reference. -Geregald
Atsettam 04-30-07, 11:02 AM	I am not familar with the rule in Magic of Incarnum however, I think this feat might be of use to you. Soulforged Body [Warforged] Prerequisites: Warforged, 1st level only. Benefit: You gain 1 point of essentia. In addition, you gain the ability to invest essentia into your midnight frame as if it were a soul meld. For each point of essentia invested, you gain damage reduction 1/adamantine. The maximum amount of essentia you can invest increases by 1 every six levels. For example, a soulforged character of 6th to 11th level may invest up to two points into his midnight frame, gaining damage reduction of 2/adamantine. A 12th level soulforged may invest up to three points of essentia into his midnight frame, gaining damage reduction 3/adamatine. Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at 1st level, during character creation. Since the midnight frame takes up a body slot as armor or a robe, a soulforged cannot bind any soulmelds to his soul chakra, although he may shape a soulmeld that uses the soul chakra as normal.
Geregald 04-30-07, 11:37 AM	Neither the Soulforged Body nor the (implied) Midnight Frame Feat appear in Magic of Incarnum, the most recently printed of the three relevent books (MoI, RoEb, ECS). Mind sharing the source of these feat(s)? This is very helpful as it sets precedent for disallowing Soul Chakra binds with other forms of Warforged plating. For rules purposes for my first experience DM'ing, however, I'd like to be able to cite the source at least, if not own it. You know how players can be :D -Geregald
Atsettam 04-30-07, 11:58 AM	Neither the Soulforged Body nor the (implied) Midnight Frame Feat appear in Magic of Incarnum, the most recently printed of the three relevent books (MoI, RoEb, ECS). Mind sharing the source of these feat(s)? This is very helpful as it sets precedent for disallowing Soul Chakra binds with other forms of Warforged plating. For rules purposes for my first experience DM'ing, however, I'd like to be able to cite the source at least, if not own it. You know how players can be :D -Geregald The midnight frame is part of the flavor text (which I remove to save ink) it is not an implied second feat. The Soulforged Body feat is homebrew. I found this feat (along with four other Warforged feats) on these boards when I was gathering Warforged related information. I apologize for not stating that in my previous post.
Geregald 04-30-07, 12:05 PM	Ahh. Well, while useful, I'm looking for a concrete ruling somewhere. Thank you very much for the suggestion though - should we have a player choose a Warforged and Meldshaping class, I will suggest it to them. -Geregald
Engilbrand 04-30-07, 12:10 PM	I would rule that Warforged can NOT bind to the Soul Chakra. They are, for almost all intents and purposes, wearing armor. You don't actually have to worry about the Soul Chakra until level 18 or so, right? Before that time, or even at level 18, take the feat that lets you bind to a Chakra that already has an item there. Now they can bind and still wear armor. Problem solved. Are there really any good uses for the Soul Chakra, though? I haven't really spent much time looking there as my current character is only level 7.
Atsettam 04-30-07, 12:15 PM	Ahh. Well, while useful, I'm looking for a concrete ruling somewhere. Thank you very much for the suggestion though - should we have a player choose a Warforged and Meldshaping class, I will suggest it to them. -Geregald Your welcome :)
Mystyc 04-30-07, 12:54 PM	Magic of Incarnum (p. 51)- "When you bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it usually fuses to your body in the location corresponding to that chakra. It prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soulmeld in question.)" OK, so I'm not that familiar with Magic of Incarnum, but nothing in this quote tells me that binding to the soul chakra occupies your body slot. The other chakra binds all have the same name as the slot the then occupy -- head, arms, waist, etc. -- and you don't wear armor on your soul. Where does this actual rule appear? And does the heart chakra occupy a body slot as well?
Geregald 04-30-07, 01:17 PM	I would rule that Warforged can NOT bind to the Soul Chakra. They are, for almost all intents and purposes, wearing armor. You don't actually have to worry about the Soul Chakra until level 18 or so, right? Before that time, or even at level 18, take the feat that lets you bind to a Chakra that already has an item there. Now they can bind and still wear armor. Problem solved. Hereinlies the problem: ** Binding to the Soul Chakra on a normal character prevents you from wearing armor because it fuses with your flesh. A Warforged's plating IS it's "flesh," so that's not an appropriate explanation. However, not all Bound Soulmelds physically prevent an item from being worn in the slot anyway (MoI pg. 51). ** Furthermore, Chakra Binds explicitly restrict the benefits of Magic Items. This obviously denies any enchanted Enhancement Bonus or properties applied to the Plating, but the RAW say nothing about mundane bonuses (such as Armor Bonus) allowed when an item is disallowed from being worn on a Bound Chakra. I assume this is because the Binds that physcially disallow wearing another item are primary body slots as opposed to Torso, Ring, Amulet which ONLY confer magical bonuses. (Face is a special exception in the case of Bound Soulmelds, which are almost always masks that become a part of your face.) ** The rule of Stacking / Overlapping already dictates that the Plating's Armor Bonus, if it were still allowed as per the 2nd point, would supercede or be superceded by any Armor Bonus granted by a Soul Chakra - Bound soulmeld, thereby lending justification to allowing a Bind overtop of Plating due to nature RAW adjustments. Keep the input coming please ~ I have a week to decide on a course of action before the game starts and this one really has me stumped for the reasons listed above. -Geregald ------------------ To answer Mystic: OK, so I'm not that familiar with Magic of Incarnum, but nothing in this quote tells me that binding to the soul chakra occupies your body slot. The other chakra binds all have the same name as the slot the then occupy -- head, arms, waist, etc. -- and you don't wear armor on your soul. Where does this actual rule appear? And does the heart chakra occupy a body slot as well? This is where familiarity with MoI comes in handy. All Soulmelds are related to a Chakra. Shaping a Soulmeld requires it to be "centered on" a Chakra, which always corresponds to a Body Slot. (Exception for Totem Chakra in Totemist class, see RAW in MoI pg. 30 & 51.) The Heart & Soul Chakra, by RAW definition in numerous places in MoI, correspond to the Torso and Body slots respectively. Keep in mind that Torso = tunic, shirt, or other Clothing-type accessories, whereas Body = armor or robe. SHAPING a Soulmeld does not occupy the respective Body Slot, the Soulmeld simply "hovers" over the proper location on the body. BINDING a Soulmeld, by RAW definition, manifests it as a physical item and occupies the body slot completely in most cases. This also applies to the Totem Chakra, though a soulmeld bound to the Totem Chakra actually occupies a bodyslot appropriate to the soulmeld since the Totem Chakra has no corresponding slot. (This can be circumvented by taking feats.)
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 01:21 PM	OK, so I'm not that familiar with Magic of Incarnum, but nothing in this quote tells me that binding to the soul chakra occupies your body slot. The other chakra binds all have the same name as the slot the then occupy -- head, arms, waist, etc. -- and you don't wear armor on your soul. Where does this actual rule appear? And does the heart chakra occupy a body slot as well?The soul chakra is equivalent to the armor slot for magic items. And warforged composite plating is considered to take up that very slot, preventing you from wearing other stuff in the same slot. Keep in mind that until very late in non-epic play, this doesn't matter, considering that 19th level is the minimum possible level to bind the soul chakra. And everyone who's not a straight incarnate has to wait until 24th level. So by the time that things matter, you could probably add the Incarnum Focus effect to your composite plating by digging some spare change out of your pocket. Instead of buying an Incarnum Robe, you'd just have that effect applied to your pre-existing armor.
Mystyc 04-30-07, 01:23 PM	This is where familiarity with MoI comes in handy. Perhaps I misspoke. I am familiar with the difference between shaping and binding. I am not familiar with the "numerous places" that it declares the final two chakras to match with the torso and body slots, meaning I can't recall one of the top of my head. I would like a citation for that so that I can refer directly to the text and therefore be of more help.
Geregald 04-30-07, 01:40 PM	...you could probably add the Incarnum Focus effect to your composite plating by digging some spare change out of your pocket. Instead of buying an Incarnum Robe, you'd just have that effect applied to your pre-existing armor. Since I can't find Incarnum Focus as an armor/shield effect in either MoI or MICmp, I'll go on a hunch and assume you meant... Soulbound Armor/Shield - Allows its wearer to invest essentia to improve his Armor Class. In which case, improving Armor Class isn't the problem, it's the special abilities conferred by binding to the Soul Chakra (though these do occasionally include AC modificiations). Still, I'm very thankful for the opinion. That's just what I need as I decide how to rule on this matter BEFORE it becomes a problem. Perhaps I misspoke. I am familiar with the difference between shaping and binding. I am not familiar with the "numerous places" that it declares the final two chakras to match with the torso and body slots, meaning I can't recall one of the top of my head. I would like a citation for that so that I can refer directly to the text and therefore be of more help. Citation's in my reply. Look on MoI pages 50 and 51, or even the Soulmeld Chart Character Sheet in the back of the book. "Numerous Places" was an understatement. -Geregald
Mystyc 04-30-07, 02:06 PM	Look on MoI pages 50... See, that list on page 50 actually answers my question. The quote you gave from page 51 in the original post didn't. Thanks for the reference. Now that I have my bearings, your interpretation four posts up looks to be the most correct. A bound soulmeld cannot prevent a warforged from wearing her own body, period. The mundane effects of the character's composite plating will remain in their entirety except where overwritten, as with a superior armor bonus from any other effect (bound soulmeld or otherwise). Any magical enhancements to the plating, however, will be temporarily suppressed as long as the bind is in place.
stsword 05-05-07, 01:39 AM	See, that list on page 50 actually answers my question. The quote you gave from page 51 in the original post didn't. Thanks for the reference. Now that I have my bearings, your interpretation four posts up looks to be the most correct. A bound soulmeld cannot prevent a warforged from wearing her own body, period. The mundane effects of the character's composite plating will remain in their entirety except where overwritten, as with a superior armor bonus from any other effect (bound soulmeld or otherwise). Any magical enhancements to the plating, however, will be temporarily suppressed as long as the bind is in place. Of course, you could always buy split chakra and then go to town when it comes to binding to your soul and enjoying the benefits of enchanted plating.
Dead_Weasel 05-05-07, 03:08 AM	Unless your composite plating is enchanted, it isn't a magic item. If it isn't a magical item or a soulmeld, it doesn't interfere with chakra binds.[Chakra bindings] prevent you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the same body slot. Nowhere does it say that nonmagical items interfere with chakra bindings - and if they did, most soulmelders wouldn't wear pants. If your composite plating IS enchanted, then the Split Chakra feat lets you gain its benefits as well as bind a soulmeld to your soul chakra.
Geregald 05-06-07, 10:51 AM	Dead Weasel, let me finish the citation you started... MoI pg. 51, paragraph 2, sentences 2 & 3: [A chakra binding] prevents you from gaining any benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. (In many cases, it also prevents you from physically wearing such a magic item, as dictated by common sense and the description of the soulmeld in question.) If it physically prevents you from wearing a magic item, it isnt' because it's magically enchanted - it's because an item can't be worn there period due to the bound meld taking up body space as it fuses with your body. It's this phrasing that raised questions to begin with, as the same phrasing is made regarding Warforged plating in both ECS and RoEb (though only RoEb is cited due to the "newest book trumps" rule)- Races of Eberron, pg. 8, column 2: ... occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and thus a warforged cannot benefit from the effects of magic armor or magic robes. The wording isn't as crystal-clear as in MoI, but "occupies the same space" is clear enough. Also, the fact that both Composite Plating and Chakra-Bound Soulmelds prevent Magic Items from being worn at the same time implies that they are, for all intents and purposes, the same as a magic item despite Composite Plating being perfectly mundane in and of itself. (The concept of Chakra-Bound Soulmelds being the same as Magic Items is at the very core of the Incarnum rule system: "The characters who make use of the options in this book... gain the ability to shape incarnum into magical objects called soulmelds. ... [now paraphrasing] Soulmelds resemble magic items / spells, linked to the shaper's body and worn like physical items {Magic of Incarnum, pg. 4}.") -Geregald