Warforged Paragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Warforged Paragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Banatine
08-13-07, 01:45 PM I thought that warforged needed a paragon class, so I decided to make one! I hope you enjoy!

WARFORGED PARAGON

Known for their prowess in battle, and their ability to withstand great physical punishment, the warforged are masters of the battlefields which they were created to fight on. Warforged paragons further exemplify this reputation, increasing not only their combat prowess, but their resilience, both physical and mental.
Warforged paragons are peerless fighters, and powerful paragons often rise to positions of leadership, or great renown.
Adventures: Warforged paragons stand in the frontlines of any battle that their path takes them to. Since warforged do not have any real community to call their own, warforged paragons adventure not only to increase their formidable skills, but also to search for a place that they might call Home.
Characteristics: Warforged paragons are tough, skilled warriors who find their purpose in the field of battle. Because of their martial focus, warforged fighters and paladins are likely to become paragons, although any melee oriented class is more likely to become a paragon than anything else. The glyph that marks the forehead of all warforged tends to be more intricate on warforged paragons than on others, but whether it is purely coincidence is unknown.
Alignment: Warforged paragons can be of any alignment, and most are neutral like other warforged. However, warforged paragons are more likely to be lawful than chaotic, due to their military bent.
Religion: Warforged paragons are just as dispassionate about religion as most other warforged. Some extremely rare warforged will pray to the gods for strength or survival, but the vast majority of warforged see little need for gods or faith in the heat of combat.
Background: Most warforged paragons are veterans of the Last War, and most of them have proved their worth a hundred times over, and a hundred times again. These individuals have survived the fiercest battles, overcome their greatest fears, and acheived the greatest triumphs. A warforged paragon is not only a peerless fighter, but an invaluable companion.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Warforged paragons have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Strength is important for warforged paragons because they often serve as melee fighters and emphasise their martial prowess. Constitution is important not only to a warforged paragon's ability to stand in battle, but also because resilience one of the hallmarks of the warforged race.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The warforged paragon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), and Knowledge (Warfare) (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Table: The Warforged Paragon
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Great Warrior, Bonus feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Improved plating, Indomitable will
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability boost (+2 Con)

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the warforged paragon class.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Warforged paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light, medium, and heavy armour, and with shields (but not tower shields).
Great Warrior (Ex): A warforged character's paragon levels stack with fighter levels for the purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Bonus feat: At 1st level, a warforged paragon gains a bonus feat from the list avaliable to fighters.
Improved plating (Ex): At 2nd level, the armour bonus granted by a warforged paragon's Composite Plating increases by 1.
Indomitable will (Ex): At 2nd level, a warforged paragon becomes immune to mind-affecting effects (unless he chooses to accept them).
Ability boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a warforged paragon's Constitution score increases by 2 points.

There, how do you like it? Any good? Balanced even? Any and all feedbacl appreciated.
Warforged Goblin
08-13-07, 02:07 PM Not bad. I like the one I made better, personally speaking of course. One question though: Why is this in the "Races" section instead of the "Classes" section?
Spikes01k
08-13-07, 02:49 PM I think it is VERY nicely done. Good work.
Lawlicron
08-13-07, 02:51 PM Very well done and balanced. Good job.
StruckingFuggle
08-13-07, 03:41 PM You realize that just about every Warforged melee fighter, ever, will take two levels of this, right?

Immunity to bad mind effecting effects without missing out on the good ones, at second level? And it comes with +1 AC?

Yes, please!
foxtail
08-13-07, 03:49 PM It's just like Strucking said, there's zero reason not to take these levels, since a WF fighter won't miss out on bonus feats, fighter level qualifications, or BAB. He'll even end up with a slightly higher Fortitude save.

A permanent, Extraordinary mind blank might be a little much, don't you think? Maybe a bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells, equal to his paragon class levels, instead.
Banatine
08-13-07, 05:02 PM Warforged Goblin: I was going to post it in classes, but i thought that since paragons are exemplare of their race, race might be more appropriate. (I also just posted it in the UA section, because i thought that this one didn't get posted! :rolleyes: )

Spiked01k & Lawlicron: Thank you! :D

StruckingFuggle & foxtail: I thought that Great Warrior would fit with the warforged, since they were quite literaly built for the fighter class. Also, I personally think that increasing the power of the fighter slightly is not broken. Also, I added Indomitable Will because I thought it was the most appropriate construct trait to give them (however, maybe it is more powerful that I give it credit for. Could you give me some examples of powerful things it can resist please? Should I only make it fear effects or something? Fear was all I was thinking of at the time.)
Mr_Teapot
08-13-07, 05:34 PM Could you give me some examples of powerful things it can resist please?

How about every single enchantment spell?

For reference, you'd get immunity to these PHB spells:

* Aid
* Animal Messenger
* Animal Trance
* Antipathy
* Bane
* Binding
* Bless
* Calm Animals
* Calm Emotions
* Cause Fear
* Charm Animal
* Charm Monster
* Charm Person
* Color Spray
* Command
* Confusion
* Crushing Despair
* Daze
* Daze Monster
* Deep Slumber
* Demand
* Detect Thoughts
* Dominate Animal
* Dominate Monster
* Dominate Person
* Doom
* Dream
* Fear
* Feeblemind
* Geas/Quest
* Good Hope
* Heroism
* Hideous Laughter
* Hold Animal
* Hold Monster
* Hold Person
* Hypnotic Pattern
* Hypnotism
* Illusory Script
* Insanity
* Irresistible Dance
* Lullaby
* Mind Fog
* Modify Memory
* Nightmare
* Phantasmal Killer
* Power Word Blind
* Power Word Kill
* Power Word Stun
* Prayer
* Rage
* Rainbow Pattern
* Scare
* Scintillating Pattern
* Sleep
* Song of Discord
* Suggestion
* Symbol of Fear
* Symbol of Insanity
* Symbol of Persuasion
* Symbol of Sleep
* Symbol of Stunning
* Sympathy
* Touch of Idiocy
* Weird
* Zone of Truth

I don't have a good list of non-PHB mind affecting spells, nor of mind affecting monster or class abilities (Bard songs, etc.), but you can bet there are hundreds of things you're getting immunity to.

Some of those (e.g., Aid, Bless, etc) are beneficial - so the ability to drop your mental immunity makes the ability even more powerful.

Comparing the proposed Warforged Paragon to the Dwarf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#dwarfParagon) (the most comparable paragon class - bonus to Con, same BAB and hit die, etc.) makes clear that you should tone this thing down some. I'd suggest you lose the Bonus feat at 1st level, and rewrite the Indomitable Will to be a small bonus on saving throws (+1 or 2) vs mind affecting things. The bonus to Composite plating is enough of a class feaure to justify taking the 2nd level (especially while on your way to the 3rd and the Con bonus), so if you took my previous suggestions, you might move Indomitable Will to 1st:

1: Great Warrior, Indomitable Will (+1 vs mind affecting spells or supernatural abilities)
2: Improved Plating
3: Con Bonus

Which is still way better for a fighter than the dwarven paragon (most of the dwarf paragon's abilities relate to stonecunning, crafting and darkvision, not to fighting) but is a lot more reasonable.
Lawlicron
08-13-07, 06:13 PM Heres the thing. Its nice to have your fighter not be a pusher over to spellcasters. I think thats what the immunity to mind-affecting abilities will help with in later levels. And some of those spells Mr_Teapot mentioned couldn't target the warforged in the first place (Calm Animal?). There are still a myriad of spells to kill them and thats fine. But seeing as how the warforged were created to do one thing (fight) that their paragon levels should reflect this.
unusualsuspect
08-13-07, 06:25 PM Paragon levels should reflect their ability to fight, but not at the expense of game balance... and selective immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects is way, way, WAY over the top for a 2 level dip. This is a capstone ability for some PrCs, and even then it isn't always selective, but rather a BLANKET EFFECT.

I'm just not seeing why the paragon class should grant something BETTER then the ability PrCs grant at, say, 9th level (Illithid Slayer) or 5th level (Occult Slayer).

Keep in mind these are gained no earlier than 14th level or 10th level, respectively. Something a Warforged shouldn't be able to gain as early as 2nd level, ESPECIALLY given all the immunities warforged already have.
Lawlicron
08-13-07, 07:28 PM Paragon levels should reflect their ability to fight, but not at the expense of game balance... and selective immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects is way, way, WAY over the top for a 2 level dip. This is a capstone ability for some PrCs, and even then it isn't always selective, but rather a BLANKET EFFECT.

I don't see it unbalancing things much after casters normally pull ahead from the melee types. Maybe it shouldn't be a selective immunity, I think that would make more sense. I mean Fighters do really well from levels 1 to 6. Then they start lagging behind the casters. Then they become useless compared to them.
Templario
08-13-07, 07:40 PM Just a bonus to Will would be great.

Moreover, very well done.

PS: Does the Improved Plating affects Adamantine, Mithral and Ironwood bodies?
LazyNinja
08-13-07, 08:41 PM I don't see it unbalancing things much after casters normally pull ahead from the melee types. Maybe it shouldn't be a selective immunity, I think that would make more sense. I mean Fighters do really well from levels 1 to 6. Then they start lagging behind the casters. Then they become useless compared to them.

Don't get me wrong, I like the mind immunity. I mean, I really like it. Which is what makes me think it's too powerful. I mean, I build entire characters around getting this ability. I'll suffer the burden of a pally's code of conduct just to pick up fear or compulsion immunity. I'll dip and exchange and houserule and buy splats just to grab a bonus to will saves. Remember that this ability basically negates the need for will saves. It's akin to making a wizard immune to effects that require a fortitude save. Forever. With no chance of dispelling. Yeah, a flat bonus would be great instead.
Lawlicron
08-13-07, 10:18 PM It's akin to making a wizard immune to effects that require a fortitude save. Forever. With no chance of dispelling.

Lich? Necropolitan? Theres some more, but those are the ones that spring to mind. I know they are templates and carry an LA (Kind of).

But the more we're talking about this the more I think a flat will bonus would be better. I just have a soft spot for the melee types. I really wish they were more viable at higher levels, thats all.
JulesCARV
08-13-07, 10:26 PM You mention improving composite plating. Does this not apply to warforged with adamantine, mithral, etc, body?

Also, as far as mind-affecting goes, I think that that should be the purview of the Warforged Juggernaut, which pays for its abilities (such as immunity to mind-affecting) with rather more extensive costs, such as 3/4 base attack bonus, extensive feat requirements, etc.
Lawlicron
08-13-07, 10:35 PM You mention improving composite plating. Does this not apply to warforged with adamantine, mithral, etc, body?

Also, as far as mind-affecting goes, I think that that should be the purview of the Warforged Juggernaut, which pays for its abilities (such as immunity to mind-affecting) with rather more extensive costs, such as 3/4 base attack bonus, extensive feat requirements, etc.

I think it does and if it doesn't it should.

Also, if you take away the immunity and make it a flat bonus you might just want to give them iron will as a bonus feat. Or maybe make it +3 or +4, I still have a soft spot for the warrior types.
runestar
08-13-07, 10:48 PM I disagree with just giving them blanket mindblank like that.

If we look at existing precedents, the 3 races, construct, undead and plant, cannot be had without henious drawbacks (undead and construct races typically have crippling drawbacks, and plant races have stiff LAs of +2 or more). Even the mindblank spell is a 8th lv spell and is not accessible before lv15.

Nor can you argue that just because fighters are supposedly weaker than spellcasters, that automatically justifies the inclusion of any ability. If anything, we should be working on how to make their combat prowess up to scratch, not just dump a list of powers on them which have no synergy whatsoever and call it balanced. IMO, the wrong problem is being solved. Why not just give fighters access to polymorph and shapechange as well?

There is a feat called indomitable will which lets you use your con mod on will saves. That is the furthest I would allow. Blanket immunity at so low a cost? :noway:
Lawlicron
08-13-07, 11:12 PM I disagree with just giving them blanket mindblank like that.

If we look at existing precedents, the 3 races, construct, undead and plant, cannot be had without henious drawbacks (undead and construct races typically have crippling drawbacks, and plant races have stiff LAs of +2 or more). Even the mindblank spell is a 8th lv spell and is not accessible before lv15.

Nor can you argue that just because fighters are supposedly weaker than spellcasters, that automatically justifies the inclusion of any ability. If anything, we should be working on how to make their combat prowess up to scratch, not just dump a list of powers on them which have no synergy whatsoever and call it balanced. IMO, the wrong problem is being solved. Why not just give fighters access to polymorph and shapechange as well?

There is a feat called indomitable will which lets you use your con mod on will saves. That is the furthest I would allow. Blanket immunity at so low a cost? :noway:

That feat sounds in flavor and good as a bonus feat.

I retracted that statement (Kind of). I just wish casters and melee guys were more balanced. I personally feel they become a lot more balanced with the addition of Tome of Battle. But thats another discussion entirely.
runestar
08-13-07, 11:19 PM Or is indomitable will a class feature? Regardless, should work. Would this stack with warforged paladin, which lets them add their con mod to will saves as well?
Banatine
08-14-07, 03:24 AM About Indomitable will: I now see everyone's point. would it be more balanced, and characterful, to give the Con to Will saves? Also, i don't know any of the warforged substitution levels, so i'm not sure.

About Improved plating: I had intended for it to improve any plating. If I hadn't I probably would have said it increased the armour bonus to +3 or something like that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Banatine 08-13-07, 01:45 PM	I thought that warforged needed a paragon class, so I decided to make one! I hope you enjoy! WARFORGED PARAGON Known for their prowess in battle, and their ability to withstand great physical punishment, the warforged are masters of the battlefields which they were created to fight on. Warforged paragons further exemplify this reputation, increasing not only their combat prowess, but their resilience, both physical and mental. Warforged paragons are peerless fighters, and powerful paragons often rise to positions of leadership, or great renown. Adventures: Warforged paragons stand in the frontlines of any battle that their path takes them to. Since warforged do not have any real community to call their own, warforged paragons adventure not only to increase their formidable skills, but also to search for a place that they might call Home. Characteristics: Warforged paragons are tough, skilled warriors who find their purpose in the field of battle. Because of their martial focus, warforged fighters and paladins are likely to become paragons, although any melee oriented class is more likely to become a paragon than anything else. The glyph that marks the forehead of all warforged tends to be more intricate on warforged paragons than on others, but whether it is purely coincidence is unknown. Alignment: Warforged paragons can be of any alignment, and most are neutral like other warforged. However, warforged paragons are more likely to be lawful than chaotic, due to their military bent. Religion: Warforged paragons are just as dispassionate about religion as most other warforged. Some extremely rare warforged will pray to the gods for strength or survival, but the vast majority of warforged see little need for gods or faith in the heat of combat. Background: Most warforged paragons are veterans of the Last War, and most of them have proved their worth a hundred times over, and a hundred times again. These individuals have survived the fiercest battles, overcome their greatest fears, and acheived the greatest triumphs. A warforged paragon is not only a peerless fighter, but an invaluable companion. GAME RULE INFORMATION Warforged paragons have the following game statistics. Abilities: Strength is important for warforged paragons because they often serve as melee fighters and emphasise their martial prowess. Constitution is important not only to a warforged paragon's ability to stand in battle, but also because resilience one of the hallmarks of the warforged race. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d10. Class Skills The warforged paragon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), and Knowledge (Warfare) (Int). Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Table: The Warforged Paragon Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Great Warrior, Bonus feat 2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Improved plating, Indomitable will 3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Ability boost (+2 Con) Class Features All of the following are class features of the warforged paragon class. Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Warforged paragons are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light, medium, and heavy armour, and with shields (but not tower shields). Great Warrior (Ex): A warforged character's paragon levels stack with fighter levels for the purposes of meeting feat prerequisites. Bonus feat: At 1st level, a warforged paragon gains a bonus feat from the list avaliable to fighters. Improved plating (Ex): At 2nd level, the armour bonus granted by a warforged paragon's Composite Plating increases by 1. Indomitable will (Ex): At 2nd level, a warforged paragon becomes immune to mind-affecting effects (unless he chooses to accept them). Ability boost (Ex): At 3rd level, a warforged paragon's Constitution score increases by 2 points. There, how do you like it? Any good? Balanced even? Any and all feedbacl appreciated.
Warforged Goblin 08-13-07, 02:07 PM	Not bad. I like the one I made better, personally speaking of course. One question though: Why is this in the "Races" section instead of the "Classes" section?
Spikes01k 08-13-07, 02:49 PM	I think it is VERY nicely done. Good work.
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 02:51 PM	Very well done and balanced. Good job.
StruckingFuggle 08-13-07, 03:41 PM	You realize that just about every Warforged melee fighter, ever, will take two levels of this, right? Immunity to bad mind effecting effects without missing out on the good ones, at second level? And it comes with +1 AC? Yes, please!
foxtail 08-13-07, 03:49 PM	It's just like Strucking said, there's zero reason not to take these levels, since a WF fighter won't miss out on bonus feats, fighter level qualifications, or BAB. He'll even end up with a slightly higher Fortitude save. A permanent, Extraordinary mind blank might be a little much, don't you think? Maybe a bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells, equal to his paragon class levels, instead.
Banatine 08-13-07, 05:02 PM	Warforged Goblin: I was going to post it in classes, but i thought that since paragons are exemplare of their race, race might be more appropriate. (I also just posted it in the UA section, because i thought that this one didn't get posted! :rolleyes: ) Spiked01k & Lawlicron: Thank you! :D StruckingFuggle & foxtail: I thought that Great Warrior would fit with the warforged, since they were quite literaly built for the fighter class. Also, I personally think that increasing the power of the fighter slightly is not broken. Also, I added Indomitable Will because I thought it was the most appropriate construct trait to give them (however, maybe it is more powerful that I give it credit for. Could you give me some examples of powerful things it can resist please? Should I only make it fear effects or something? Fear was all I was thinking of at the time.)
Mr_Teapot 08-13-07, 05:34 PM	Could you give me some examples of powerful things it can resist please? How about every single enchantment spell? For reference, you'd get immunity to these PHB spells: * Aid * Animal Messenger * Animal Trance * Antipathy * Bane * Binding * Bless * Calm Animals * Calm Emotions * Cause Fear * Charm Animal * Charm Monster * Charm Person * Color Spray * Command * Confusion * Crushing Despair * Daze * Daze Monster * Deep Slumber * Demand * Detect Thoughts * Dominate Animal * Dominate Monster * Dominate Person * Doom * Dream * Fear * Feeblemind * Geas/Quest * Good Hope * Heroism * Hideous Laughter * Hold Animal * Hold Monster * Hold Person * Hypnotic Pattern * Hypnotism * Illusory Script * Insanity * Irresistible Dance * Lullaby * Mind Fog * Modify Memory * Nightmare * Phantasmal Killer * Power Word Blind * Power Word Kill * Power Word Stun * Prayer * Rage * Rainbow Pattern * Scare * Scintillating Pattern * Sleep * Song of Discord * Suggestion * Symbol of Fear * Symbol of Insanity * Symbol of Persuasion * Symbol of Sleep * Symbol of Stunning * Sympathy * Touch of Idiocy * Weird * Zone of Truth I don't have a good list of non-PHB mind affecting spells, nor of mind affecting monster or class abilities (Bard songs, etc.), but you can bet there are hundreds of things you're getting immunity to. Some of those (e.g., Aid, Bless, etc) are beneficial - so the ability to drop your mental immunity makes the ability even more powerful. Comparing the proposed Warforged Paragon to the Dwarf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#dwarfParagon) (the most comparable paragon class - bonus to Con, same BAB and hit die, etc.) makes clear that you should tone this thing down some. I'd suggest you lose the Bonus feat at 1st level, and rewrite the Indomitable Will to be a small bonus on saving throws (+1 or 2) vs mind affecting things. The bonus to Composite plating is enough of a class feaure to justify taking the 2nd level (especially while on your way to the 3rd and the Con bonus), so if you took my previous suggestions, you might move Indomitable Will to 1st: 1: Great Warrior, Indomitable Will (+1 vs mind affecting spells or supernatural abilities) 2: Improved Plating 3: Con Bonus Which is still way better for a fighter than the dwarven paragon (most of the dwarf paragon's abilities relate to stonecunning, crafting and darkvision, not to fighting) but is a lot more reasonable.
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 06:13 PM	Heres the thing. Its nice to have your fighter not be a pusher over to spellcasters. I think thats what the immunity to mind-affecting abilities will help with in later levels. And some of those spells Mr_Teapot mentioned couldn't target the warforged in the first place (Calm Animal?). There are still a myriad of spells to kill them and thats fine. But seeing as how the warforged were created to do one thing (fight) that their paragon levels should reflect this.
unusualsuspect 08-13-07, 06:25 PM	Paragon levels should reflect their ability to fight, but not at the expense of game balance... and selective immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects is way, way, WAY over the top for a 2 level dip. This is a capstone ability for some PrCs, and even then it isn't always selective, but rather a BLANKET EFFECT. I'm just not seeing why the paragon class should grant something BETTER then the ability PrCs grant at, say, 9th level (Illithid Slayer) or 5th level (Occult Slayer). Keep in mind these are gained no earlier than 14th level or 10th level, respectively. Something a Warforged shouldn't be able to gain as early as 2nd level, ESPECIALLY given all the immunities warforged already have.
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 07:28 PM	Paragon levels should reflect their ability to fight, but not at the expense of game balance... and selective immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects is way, way, WAY over the top for a 2 level dip. This is a capstone ability for some PrCs, and even then it isn't always selective, but rather a BLANKET EFFECT. I don't see it unbalancing things much after casters normally pull ahead from the melee types. Maybe it shouldn't be a selective immunity, I think that would make more sense. I mean Fighters do really well from levels 1 to 6. Then they start lagging behind the casters. Then they become useless compared to them.
Templario 08-13-07, 07:40 PM	Just a bonus to Will would be great. Moreover, very well done. PS: Does the Improved Plating affects Adamantine, Mithral and Ironwood bodies?
LazyNinja 08-13-07, 08:41 PM	I don't see it unbalancing things much after casters normally pull ahead from the melee types. Maybe it shouldn't be a selective immunity, I think that would make more sense. I mean Fighters do really well from levels 1 to 6. Then they start lagging behind the casters. Then they become useless compared to them. Don't get me wrong, I like the mind immunity. I mean, I really like it. Which is what makes me think it's too powerful. I mean, I build entire characters around getting this ability. I'll suffer the burden of a pally's code of conduct just to pick up fear or compulsion immunity. I'll dip and exchange and houserule and buy splats just to grab a bonus to will saves. Remember that this ability basically negates the need for will saves. It's akin to making a wizard immune to effects that require a fortitude save. Forever. With no chance of dispelling. Yeah, a flat bonus would be great instead.
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 10:18 PM	It's akin to making a wizard immune to effects that require a fortitude save. Forever. With no chance of dispelling. Lich? Necropolitan? Theres some more, but those are the ones that spring to mind. I know they are templates and carry an LA (Kind of). But the more we're talking about this the more I think a flat will bonus would be better. I just have a soft spot for the melee types. I really wish they were more viable at higher levels, thats all.
JulesCARV 08-13-07, 10:26 PM	You mention improving composite plating. Does this not apply to warforged with adamantine, mithral, etc, body? Also, as far as mind-affecting goes, I think that that should be the purview of the Warforged Juggernaut, which pays for its abilities (such as immunity to mind-affecting) with rather more extensive costs, such as 3/4 base attack bonus, extensive feat requirements, etc.
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 10:35 PM	You mention improving composite plating. Does this not apply to warforged with adamantine, mithral, etc, body? Also, as far as mind-affecting goes, I think that that should be the purview of the Warforged Juggernaut, which pays for its abilities (such as immunity to mind-affecting) with rather more extensive costs, such as 3/4 base attack bonus, extensive feat requirements, etc. I think it does and if it doesn't it should. Also, if you take away the immunity and make it a flat bonus you might just want to give them iron will as a bonus feat. Or maybe make it +3 or +4, I still have a soft spot for the warrior types.
runestar 08-13-07, 10:48 PM	I disagree with just giving them blanket mindblank like that. If we look at existing precedents, the 3 races, construct, undead and plant, cannot be had without henious drawbacks (undead and construct races typically have crippling drawbacks, and plant races have stiff LAs of +2 or more). Even the mindblank spell is a 8th lv spell and is not accessible before lv15. Nor can you argue that just because fighters are supposedly weaker than spellcasters, that automatically justifies the inclusion of any ability. If anything, we should be working on how to make their combat prowess up to scratch, not just dump a list of powers on them which have no synergy whatsoever and call it balanced. IMO, the wrong problem is being solved. Why not just give fighters access to polymorph and shapechange as well? There is a feat called indomitable will which lets you use your con mod on will saves. That is the furthest I would allow. Blanket immunity at so low a cost? :noway:
Lawlicron 08-13-07, 11:12 PM	I disagree with just giving them blanket mindblank like that. If we look at existing precedents, the 3 races, construct, undead and plant, cannot be had without henious drawbacks (undead and construct races typically have crippling drawbacks, and plant races have stiff LAs of +2 or more). Even the mindblank spell is a 8th lv spell and is not accessible before lv15. Nor can you argue that just because fighters are supposedly weaker than spellcasters, that automatically justifies the inclusion of any ability. If anything, we should be working on how to make their combat prowess up to scratch, not just dump a list of powers on them which have no synergy whatsoever and call it balanced. IMO, the wrong problem is being solved. Why not just give fighters access to polymorph and shapechange as well? There is a feat called indomitable will which lets you use your con mod on will saves. That is the furthest I would allow. Blanket immunity at so low a cost? :noway: That feat sounds in flavor and good as a bonus feat. I retracted that statement (Kind of). I just wish casters and melee guys were more balanced. I personally feel they become a lot more balanced with the addition of Tome of Battle. But thats another discussion entirely.
runestar 08-13-07, 11:19 PM	Or is indomitable will a class feature? Regardless, should work. Would this stack with warforged paladin, which lets them add their con mod to will saves as well?
Banatine 08-14-07, 03:24 AM	About Indomitable will: I now see everyone's point. would it be more balanced, and characterful, to give the Con to Will saves? Also, i don't know any of the warforged substitution levels, so i'm not sure. About Improved plating: I had intended for it to improve any plating. If I hadn't I probably would have said it increased the armour bonus to +3 or something like that.