We are Camre! [Archive] - Wizards Community

We are Camre! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rustmonster
05-09-07, 11:03 PM I tried a while ago to make an undead race, but it seemed unbalanced. Here is my newest idea for an undead hero (or villain): The Camre.

Fluff

The Camre are a very strange type of undead creature. They are occasionally formed at a sight where many souls have been lost, such as a battlefield. These souls, instead of moving on to eternal rest, sometimes fuse together, creating a material form and sentient thought. They are one, but many at the same time. They often refer to themselves in plural, such as "us" instead of "me", as is the correct form. They usually have a lust for adventure and knowledge, and often try to find a perpose in unlife.Their alignment is as varied as the souls contained within, although they have no recollection of who they used to be.

Camre look like an average sized human (male or female) who just reached adulthood. They have bright green or blue eyes, and light to dark grey skin. Most have white hair, but some have shades of grey or even black. They where diffrent types of clothes, depending on their preference and personal style. Their eyes seem to almost burn with a green or blue fire when they are angered.

Camre are almost shockingly similar to living creatures. One major difference between Camre and most types of undead is their presence of a "blood stream". This substance flowing through them is actually liquified negative energy. It has most of the properties of normal blood, meaning it can spread poisons as if they were in a living creature. It is not able to harm living creture that it comes in contact with, altough they can still bleed from wounds. These traits often make people mistake Camre for living, although slightly sickly looking humans.

Camre Traits:

-Medium size

-Undead. Camre are an amalgimation of souls that created a material body with their combined spirit

-Advance by level (including HD). Camre do not share most undeads d12 HD, as well as not having the weapon and armour proficiancies of undead

-Base speed 30ft.

-No Constitution score, causeing them to have less Hp on average than most living creatures

-Gains +1 to will saves. The compostite souls of a Camre give it a high resistance to will related effects

-Takes -2 penalty to listen checks and spot checks and take -2 to reflex saves and initiative. Camre have slightly dulled reaction time, as well as slightly dulled senses

-Cannot be resurected or true resurected as most undead. Camre can not go back to being the races of the souls contained within

-Cannot be destroyed or commanded by turning as most undead. It is hard to destroy or control them with turning because of the consentration of their "blood stream". They can, however, inccur all other effects of turning, such as being rebuked or turned

-Camre become disabled at 0hp, deing at -1 to -9hp, and are destroyed at -10hp, and may be stabilized as a living creature would

-Camre are ONLY immune to fortitude saves that don't work on objects or are not harmless, and death attacks. All other undead granted immunities are not granted. Camre are healed by negative energy and hurt by positive energy. Camre have darkvision out to 60ft. Camre are immune to poisitoxins as it can be nulified by their "blood stream".

-Camre must sleep to re-energize the souls within them. They can become fatigued or exausted like a living creature

-Languages: Common

-Bonus languages: Any. Camre can easily pick up new languages because of their multiple nature

-Favored clas: Any. Camre have a wide range of intrests

-Level Adjustment: 0

PS: cookie to the first one to find the name reference ;)
Rustmonster
05-10-07, 07:55 PM Bump. Any feedback anyone might have would be lovely.
fiendish_platypus
05-10-07, 08:48 PM It almost seems like an attempt to make undead seem living, taking all their bonuses and all their penalties, leaving them with, well, nothing.
YabaTheWhat
05-10-07, 09:19 PM They still have too many immunities for LA 0. They have immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, sneak attacks, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to its physical ability scores, fatigue and exhaustion effects, or to any effect that requires a Fortitude save.
fiendish_platypus
05-10-07, 09:22 PM They still have too many immunities for LA 0. They have immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, sneak attacks, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to its physical ability scores, fatigue and exhaustion effects, or to any effect that requires a Fortitude save.

You're right, you're probably always right, I totally forget about all those type stuffs, I gotta start looking in the back of my MM more...
Rustmonster
05-10-07, 10:28 PM They still have too many immunities for LA 0. They have immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, sneak attacks, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to its physical ability scores, fatigue and exhaustion effects, or to any effect that requires a Fortitude save.

Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've looked over these immunities time and time again, and really, it about balances with the faults. Seriously, those are all very specific occurences. And coupled with the penalties to reflex and initiative etc I gave, plus the ability to be turned, plus only having one level 6 spell that can revive them, plus having no constitution score, plus not being able to be stabalized as easily, plus my removal of of the immunity to mind-Affecting, is actually a pretty effective counterbalance, IMO. Actually, after looking at all the races in the PHB, I see that every race already has a large pool of pros, usually with very few cons. The ability to resist some effects that occur maybe 0.01% of the time in exchange for low hp and turnability isn't really that bad.

But I'm always up to suggestions, as these stats still are not final. Any specifics you could suggest would be much apretiated.
Rustmonster
05-10-07, 10:29 PM And PS, spells like desintigrate can still cause havic with undead, as no constituton score also means lower than average fortitude save.
YabaTheWhat
05-11-07, 08:29 AM And PS, spells like desintigrate can still cause havic with undead, as no constituton score also means lower than average fortitude save. Except that they automatically succeed on any fortitude save. Actually, even better, they're immune to anything that requires a fortitude save. Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've looked over these immunities time and time again, and really, it about balances with the faults. Seriously, those are all very specific occurences. And coupled with the penalties to reflex and initiative etc I gave, plus the ability to be turned, plus only having one level 6 spell that can revive them, plus having no constitution score, plus not being able to be stabalized as easily, plus my removal of of the immunity to mind-Affecting, is actually a pretty effective counterbalance, IMO. Actually, after looking at all the races in the PHB, I see that every race already has a large pool of pros, usually with very few cons. The ability to resist some effects that occur maybe 0.01% of the time in exchange for low hp and turnability isn't really that bad. Maybe your DM rarely uses any tactic other than direct damage assaults, but that's not the norm by any means. Undead aren't hard to heal either; they just require the use of an Inflict XX Wounds spell in place of a Cure XX Wounds spell. This may prove slightly inconvenient for a mixed party, but the healer can either drop the Inflicts for Cures when needed for living party members, or he can prepare Inflict Light Wounds potions at relatively low cost. (My favorite group's DM actually had to enhance the Heal skill to get people to use it. Most people don't even bother during combat, preferring to dump a spell or potion onto the injured party member.)

Having only one spell to revive them won't affect most games. What spell is that anyway? Does it have material components? Because the normal method for reviving a PC has expensive material components, still cost the PC a level, and if they die from level drain, then only a 9th level spell can bring them back. Some DMs don't even allow revive/resurrect spells, though that isn't really relevant to the argument.

Being turned is actually a reasonable weakness, though the Improved Turn Resistance feat helps a lot to negate it. Their biggest fear would be getting destroyed outright by a high-level cleric using Turn Undead. If they're playing a class with the disguise skill, or use the Disguise Self spell (or a hat of disguise) properly, then opponents won't even try to turn them in the first place.

The penalties to listen & spot checks are generally meaningless to anyone other than the party lookout (a tank or spellcaster won't use those skills anyway), and the initiative penalty will rarely matter. Besides, other than turning, their drawbacks can be countered entirely by three feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Alertness. How many of the undead immunities could you get with three feats?

The PHB and other core races do get a number of bonuses, but those bonuses are relatively minor. A couple saving throw bonuses (the dwarf gets the best at +2 to about half its saves overall, followed closely by the halfling), a few minor skill bonuses, and/or a single minor immunity. I won't say to look at the half-orc for balance, because half-orcs get jipped, but the halfling is a pretty good balance example, and the undead immunities easily dwarf anything the halfling gets. Plus you're giving your own undead a couple bonuses, like the +1 bonus to will saves.

With their remaining immunities and the weaknesses you've given them, you might be able to get away with LA+1. However they'd need to get a lot weaker to balance with the PHB races.
obrysii
05-11-07, 08:41 AM Except that they automatically succeed on any fortitude save. Actually, even better, they're immune to anything that requires a fortitude save.

Incorrect. They are immune to anything that requires a fortitude save that does not affect objects. So the aforementioned disintegration would wreck havoc on them.
YabaTheWhat
05-11-07, 09:17 AM Incorrect. They are immune to anything that requires a fortitude save that does not affect objects. So the aforementioned disintegration would wreck havoc on them.You're right, you're probably always right, I totally forget about all those type stuffs, I gotta start looking in the back of my MM more... Obviously not always right. :P

As for Disintegrate, it's a single one-target sixth-level direct-damage spell. (Note: undead do not actually count as objects; that simply determines if they need to make the save.) Two castings of scorching ray (a 2nd-level spell) would deal the same damage to anything without fire immunity, and that spell doesn't allow a save at all. In a campaign where direct hitpoint damage is the be-all and end-all of every encounter and dungeon, this undead race won't be all that obsurdly powerful. In a normal game, where the DM hits the group with a variety of different encounters, the undead immunities are a major boon. (There have been multiple times when a periapt of proof against poison would've saved my bacon, and that's just one immunity.)
fiendish_platypus
05-11-07, 09:25 AM Obviously not always right. :P

I'll let that one slide. :P
Rustmonster
05-11-07, 09:31 AM Obviously not always right. :P

As for Disintegrate, it's a single one-target sixth-level direct-damage spell. (Note: undead do not actually count as objects; that simply determines if they need to make the save.) Two castings of scorching ray (a 2nd-level spell) would deal the same damage to anything without fire immunity, and that spell doesn't allow a save at all. In a campaign where direct hitpoint damage is the be-all and end-all of every encounter and dungeon, this undead race won't be all that obsurdly powerful. In a normal game, where the DM hits the group with a variety of different encounters, the undead immunities are a major boon. (There have been multiple times when a periapt of proof against poison would've saved my bacon, and that's just one immunity.)

I'm pretty sure that scorching ray is a ranged touch attack, so some characters may actually avoid it more easily than one that gives a save.

Also, I would really apretiate it, as I have said before, if you would actually tell me how you think I could change it to be 0 LA, in your opinion. I understand by now that apparently these resistances are a million times stronger and more common than I would have ever expected, altough it might go the other way if instead of enemies using death attacks the DM makes every second enemy able to turn. Please note that I have never actually played D&D before, so I don't have much experiance in how a dm's mind works. I would like any constructive comments you can give.
Rustmonster
05-11-07, 09:47 AM Being turned is actually a reasonable weakness, though the Improved Turn Resistance feat helps a lot to negate it. Their biggest fear would be getting destroyed outright by a high-level cleric using Turn Undead. If they're playing a class with the disguise skill, or use the Disguise Self spell (or a hat of disguise) properly, then opponents won't even try to turn them in the first place.

The penalties to listen & spot checks are generally meaningless to anyone other than the party lookout (a tank or spellcaster won't use those skills anyway), and the initiative penalty will rarely matter. Besides, other than turning, their drawbacks can be countered entirely by three feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Alertness. How many of the undead immunities could you get with three feats?

With their remaining immunities and the weaknesses you've given them, you might be able to get away with LA+1. However they'd need to get a lot weaker to balance with the PHB races.

You are suggesting that the weaknesses from this race can be undone with just FOUR simple feats? I mean, wow, I was going to use those 9 levels on things that, you know, other races can take to get stronger, but I would have to use them to remove the weaknesses I have.

Sorry if that sounded kinda bad, but I'm tired:P. I'm just saying that *I* believe that the resistances arn't unbalanced with the weaknesses. I'd still like to hear what could be done to improve it.
fiendish_platypus
05-11-07, 09:48 AM I'd just make them livinmg and then give them some undeady-ish traits. But I don't think that's whay you want...
YabaTheWhat
05-11-07, 10:30 AM Sorry if that sounded kinda bad, but I'm tired:P. I'm just saying that *I* believe that the resistances arn't unbalanced with the weaknesses. I'd still like to hear what could be done to improve it. That's the rub. I tried it myself, and came up with nothing. There is no penalty large enough to counter their remaining immunities (even without the immunity to mind-affecting spells, which I also removed, as it only makes sense for unintelligent undead) that would still leave them playable at all.

Constructs face a similar problem, because they get most of the same immunities. The closest I've seen is the Living Construct subtype, which takes away several of their more powerful immunities, though still leaving them with some decently potent ones, and that's still a bit too powerful, even for the warforged (who otherwise take more penalties than they gain benefits). Living constructs aren't healed by Inflict Wounds spells, gain only half healing from normal Cure spells (or any other healing spell, such as those that cure ability damage), but can't be turned. (Warforged armor was poorly handled as well, but that's a completely separate issue that doesn't apply here.)

A player would not even need to counter any of their drawbacks you've given them (other than vulnerability to turning) with expended feats or sub-optimum class levels, because a smart player could easily avoid any situation where the penalties matter (by not playing a stealth-based class, for example). Then of course there's the whole question of what happens when the party is fighting undead. What if the party cleric uses turning; does he turn his own party member? What if the party cleric is undead; does he turn himself? What about undead paladins and their fear immunity? -Cannot be control or commanded by turning as most undead. It is hard to destroy or control a creature with turning when it is actually multiple entities. They can, however, inccur all other effects of turning, such as being rebuked or turned Was this supposed to be, "Cannot be controlled, commanded, or destroyed by turning..."?I'm pretty sure that scorching ray is a ranged touch attack, so some characters may actually avoid it more easily than one that gives a save. Disintegrate is one of the few spells that requires an attack roll and a saving throw. It says in the description that the caster must make a ranged touch attack (like any ray), and that the target, once hit, gets a save.
Rustmonster
05-11-07, 07:17 PM To Yabba: Thanks for the feedback. While I was a school today I had a few ideas to help with the immunities, as after looking at them again, there are way too many after all :P . And yes I did mean to say destroyed or commanded with regard to turning, thank you for pointing it out. I'm probably going to update the first post with my new ideas after I have supper.
fiendish_platypus
05-11-07, 07:20 PM To Yabba: Thanks for the feedback. While I was a school today I had a few ideas to help with the immunities, as after looking at them again, there are way too many after all :P . And yes I did mean to say destroyed or commanded with regard to turning, thank you for pointing it out. I'm probably going to update the first post with my new ideas after I have supper.

So what are the new ideas?
Rustmonster
05-11-07, 08:28 PM Tada! Bye bye, most advantages of being undead! Now as far as i know, they are only immune to: Energy drain, death attacks, and disease. You may be asking, "but Rustmonster, it's still immune to poison!" Not quite! I recently bought Libris Mortis, and in it they have poisons that effect undead! So, it's only immune to some poisons now.

Another idea I had was keeping most of the immunities, baring some, like the critical hit immunity, but instead of "immunity" to them, just give a resistance on rolls against them. This would still probably be too strong, but tell me what y'all think:P

(Ewww, I said y'all... feel unclean...)
Rustmonster
05-11-07, 08:38 PM :eek: .........

After looking at the stats for poisitoxins (undead-affecting poisons) I am scared. Most of them cause perminent damage to stats, and really don't cost that much. I'm kinda leaning more towards them being immune to poisitoxins and vulnurable to normal poison. Sounds like time for an OVERHAUL! Hurrah!
Rustmonster
05-11-07, 09:05 PM Alright, now I think I may finally be done retooling this race. NOW I'm sure it has 0 Level Adjustment. I think...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rustmonster 05-09-07, 11:03 PM	I tried a while ago to make an undead race, but it seemed unbalanced. Here is my newest idea for an undead hero (or villain): The Camre. Fluff The Camre are a very strange type of undead creature. They are occasionally formed at a sight where many souls have been lost, such as a battlefield. These souls, instead of moving on to eternal rest, sometimes fuse together, creating a material form and sentient thought. They are one, but many at the same time. They often refer to themselves in plural, such as "us" instead of "me", as is the correct form. They usually have a lust for adventure and knowledge, and often try to find a perpose in unlife.Their alignment is as varied as the souls contained within, although they have no recollection of who they used to be. Camre look like an average sized human (male or female) who just reached adulthood. They have bright green or blue eyes, and light to dark grey skin. Most have white hair, but some have shades of grey or even black. They where diffrent types of clothes, depending on their preference and personal style. Their eyes seem to almost burn with a green or blue fire when they are angered. Camre are almost shockingly similar to living creatures. One major difference between Camre and most types of undead is their presence of a "blood stream". This substance flowing through them is actually liquified negative energy. It has most of the properties of normal blood, meaning it can spread poisons as if they were in a living creature. It is not able to harm living creture that it comes in contact with, altough they can still bleed from wounds. These traits often make people mistake Camre for living, although slightly sickly looking humans. Camre Traits: -Medium size -Undead. Camre are an amalgimation of souls that created a material body with their combined spirit -Advance by level (including HD). Camre do not share most undeads d12 HD, as well as not having the weapon and armour proficiancies of undead -Base speed 30ft. -No Constitution score, causeing them to have less Hp on average than most living creatures -Gains +1 to will saves. The compostite souls of a Camre give it a high resistance to will related effects -Takes -2 penalty to listen checks and spot checks and take -2 to reflex saves and initiative. Camre have slightly dulled reaction time, as well as slightly dulled senses -Cannot be resurected or true resurected as most undead. Camre can not go back to being the races of the souls contained within -Cannot be destroyed or commanded by turning as most undead. It is hard to destroy or control them with turning because of the consentration of their "blood stream". They can, however, inccur all other effects of turning, such as being rebuked or turned -Camre become disabled at 0hp, deing at -1 to -9hp, and are destroyed at -10hp, and may be stabilized as a living creature would -Camre are ONLY immune to fortitude saves that don't work on objects or are not harmless, and death attacks. All other undead granted immunities are not granted. Camre are healed by negative energy and hurt by positive energy. Camre have darkvision out to 60ft. Camre are immune to poisitoxins as it can be nulified by their "blood stream". -Camre must sleep to re-energize the souls within them. They can become fatigued or exausted like a living creature -Languages: Common -Bonus languages: Any. Camre can easily pick up new languages because of their multiple nature -Favored clas: Any. Camre have a wide range of intrests -Level Adjustment: 0 PS: cookie to the first one to find the name reference ;)
Rustmonster 05-10-07, 07:55 PM	Bump. Any feedback anyone might have would be lovely.
fiendish_platypus 05-10-07, 08:48 PM	It almost seems like an attempt to make undead seem living, taking all their bonuses and all their penalties, leaving them with, well, nothing.
YabaTheWhat 05-10-07, 09:19 PM	They still have too many immunities for LA 0. They have immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, sneak attacks, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to its physical ability scores, fatigue and exhaustion effects, or to any effect that requires a Fortitude save.
fiendish_platypus 05-10-07, 09:22 PM	They still have too many immunities for LA 0. They have immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, sneak attacks, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to its physical ability scores, fatigue and exhaustion effects, or to any effect that requires a Fortitude save. You're right, you're probably always right, I totally forget about all those type stuffs, I gotta start looking in the back of my MM more...
Rustmonster 05-10-07, 10:28 PM	They still have too many immunities for LA 0. They have immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, sneak attacks, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, damage to its physical ability scores, fatigue and exhaustion effects, or to any effect that requires a Fortitude save. Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've looked over these immunities time and time again, and really, it about balances with the faults. Seriously, those are all very specific occurences. And coupled with the penalties to reflex and initiative etc I gave, plus the ability to be turned, plus only having one level 6 spell that can revive them, plus having no constitution score, plus not being able to be stabalized as easily, plus my removal of of the immunity to mind-Affecting, is actually a pretty effective counterbalance, IMO. Actually, after looking at all the races in the PHB, I see that every race already has a large pool of pros, usually with very few cons. The ability to resist some effects that occur maybe 0.01% of the time in exchange for low hp and turnability isn't really that bad. But I'm always up to suggestions, as these stats still are not final. Any specifics you could suggest would be much apretiated.
Rustmonster 05-10-07, 10:29 PM	And PS, spells like desintigrate can still cause havic with undead, as no constituton score also means lower than average fortitude save.
YabaTheWhat 05-11-07, 08:29 AM	And PS, spells like desintigrate can still cause havic with undead, as no constituton score also means lower than average fortitude save. Except that they automatically succeed on any fortitude save. Actually, even better, they're immune to anything that requires a fortitude save. Well, I have to disagree with you on that one. I've looked over these immunities time and time again, and really, it about balances with the faults. Seriously, those are all very specific occurences. And coupled with the penalties to reflex and initiative etc I gave, plus the ability to be turned, plus only having one level 6 spell that can revive them, plus having no constitution score, plus not being able to be stabalized as easily, plus my removal of of the immunity to mind-Affecting, is actually a pretty effective counterbalance, IMO. Actually, after looking at all the races in the PHB, I see that every race already has a large pool of pros, usually with very few cons. The ability to resist some effects that occur maybe 0.01% of the time in exchange for low hp and turnability isn't really that bad. Maybe your DM rarely uses any tactic other than direct damage assaults, but that's not the norm by any means. Undead aren't hard to heal either; they just require the use of an Inflict XX Wounds spell in place of a Cure XX Wounds spell. This may prove slightly inconvenient for a mixed party, but the healer can either drop the Inflicts for Cures when needed for living party members, or he can prepare Inflict Light Wounds potions at relatively low cost. (My favorite group's DM actually had to enhance the Heal skill to get people to use it. Most people don't even bother during combat, preferring to dump a spell or potion onto the injured party member.) Having only one spell to revive them won't affect most games. What spell is that anyway? Does it have material components? Because the normal method for reviving a PC has expensive material components, still cost the PC a level, and if they die from level drain, then only a 9th level spell can bring them back. Some DMs don't even allow revive/resurrect spells, though that isn't really relevant to the argument. Being turned is actually a reasonable weakness, though the Improved Turn Resistance feat helps a lot to negate it. Their biggest fear would be getting destroyed outright by a high-level cleric using Turn Undead. If they're playing a class with the disguise skill, or use the Disguise Self spell (or a hat of disguise) properly, then opponents won't even try to turn them in the first place. The penalties to listen & spot checks are generally meaningless to anyone other than the party lookout (a tank or spellcaster won't use those skills anyway), and the initiative penalty will rarely matter. Besides, other than turning, their drawbacks can be countered entirely by three feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Alertness. How many of the undead immunities could you get with three feats? The PHB and other core races do get a number of bonuses, but those bonuses are relatively minor. A couple saving throw bonuses (the dwarf gets the best at +2 to about half its saves overall, followed closely by the halfling), a few minor skill bonuses, and/or a single minor immunity. I won't say to look at the half-orc for balance, because half-orcs get jipped, but the halfling is a pretty good balance example, and the undead immunities easily dwarf anything the halfling gets. Plus you're giving your own undead a couple bonuses, like the +1 bonus to will saves. With their remaining immunities and the weaknesses you've given them, you might be able to get away with LA+1. However they'd need to get a lot weaker to balance with the PHB races.
obrysii 05-11-07, 08:41 AM	Except that they automatically succeed on any fortitude save. Actually, even better, they're immune to anything that requires a fortitude save. Incorrect. They are immune to anything that requires a fortitude save that does not affect objects. So the aforementioned disintegration would wreck havoc on them.
YabaTheWhat 05-11-07, 09:17 AM	Incorrect. They are immune to anything that requires a fortitude save that does not affect objects. So the aforementioned disintegration would wreck havoc on them.You're right, you're probably always right, I totally forget about all those type stuffs, I gotta start looking in the back of my MM more... Obviously not always right. :P As for Disintegrate, it's a single one-target sixth-level direct-damage spell. (Note: undead do not actually count as objects; that simply determines if they need to make the save.) Two castings of scorching ray (a 2nd-level spell) would deal the same damage to anything without fire immunity, and that spell doesn't allow a save at all. In a campaign where direct hitpoint damage is the be-all and end-all of every encounter and dungeon, this undead race won't be all that obsurdly powerful. In a normal game, where the DM hits the group with a variety of different encounters, the undead immunities are a major boon. (There have been multiple times when a periapt of proof against poison would've saved my bacon, and that's just one immunity.)
fiendish_platypus 05-11-07, 09:25 AM	Obviously not always right. :P I'll let that one slide. :P
Rustmonster 05-11-07, 09:31 AM	Obviously not always right. :P As for Disintegrate, it's a single one-target sixth-level direct-damage spell. (Note: undead do not actually count as objects; that simply determines if they need to make the save.) Two castings of scorching ray (a 2nd-level spell) would deal the same damage to anything without fire immunity, and that spell doesn't allow a save at all. In a campaign where direct hitpoint damage is the be-all and end-all of every encounter and dungeon, this undead race won't be all that obsurdly powerful. In a normal game, where the DM hits the group with a variety of different encounters, the undead immunities are a major boon. (There have been multiple times when a periapt of proof against poison would've saved my bacon, and that's just one immunity.) I'm pretty sure that scorching ray is a ranged touch attack, so some characters may actually avoid it more easily than one that gives a save. Also, I would really apretiate it, as I have said before, if you would actually tell me how you think I could change it to be 0 LA, in your opinion. I understand by now that apparently these resistances are a million times stronger and more common than I would have ever expected, altough it might go the other way if instead of enemies using death attacks the DM makes every second enemy able to turn. Please note that I have never actually played D&D before, so I don't have much experiance in how a dm's mind works. I would like any constructive comments you can give.
Rustmonster 05-11-07, 09:47 AM	Being turned is actually a reasonable weakness, though the Improved Turn Resistance feat helps a lot to negate it. Their biggest fear would be getting destroyed outright by a high-level cleric using Turn Undead. If they're playing a class with the disguise skill, or use the Disguise Self spell (or a hat of disguise) properly, then opponents won't even try to turn them in the first place. The penalties to listen & spot checks are generally meaningless to anyone other than the party lookout (a tank or spellcaster won't use those skills anyway), and the initiative penalty will rarely matter. Besides, other than turning, their drawbacks can be countered entirely by three feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Alertness. How many of the undead immunities could you get with three feats? With their remaining immunities and the weaknesses you've given them, you might be able to get away with LA+1. However they'd need to get a lot weaker to balance with the PHB races. You are suggesting that the weaknesses from this race can be undone with just FOUR simple feats? I mean, wow, I was going to use those 9 levels on things that, you know, other races can take to get stronger, but I would have to use them to remove the weaknesses I have. Sorry if that sounded kinda bad, but I'm tired:P. I'm just saying that I believe that the resistances arn't unbalanced with the weaknesses. I'd still like to hear what could be done to improve it.
fiendish_platypus 05-11-07, 09:48 AM	I'd just make them livinmg and then give them some undeady-ish traits. But I don't think that's whay you want...
YabaTheWhat 05-11-07, 10:30 AM	Sorry if that sounded kinda bad, but I'm tired:P. I'm just saying that I believe that the resistances arn't unbalanced with the weaknesses. I'd still like to hear what could be done to improve it. That's the rub. I tried it myself, and came up with nothing. There is no penalty large enough to counter their remaining immunities (even without the immunity to mind-affecting spells, which I also removed, as it only makes sense for unintelligent undead) that would still leave them playable at all. Constructs face a similar problem, because they get most of the same immunities. The closest I've seen is the Living Construct subtype, which takes away several of their more powerful immunities, though still leaving them with some decently potent ones, and that's still a bit too powerful, even for the warforged (who otherwise take more penalties than they gain benefits). Living constructs aren't healed by Inflict Wounds spells, gain only half healing from normal Cure spells (or any other healing spell, such as those that cure ability damage), but can't be turned. (Warforged armor was poorly handled as well, but that's a completely separate issue that doesn't apply here.) A player would not even need to counter any of their drawbacks you've given them (other than vulnerability to turning) with expended feats or sub-optimum class levels, because a smart player could easily avoid any situation where the penalties matter (by not playing a stealth-based class, for example). Then of course there's the whole question of what happens when the party is fighting undead. What if the party cleric uses turning; does he turn his own party member? What if the party cleric is undead; does he turn himself? What about undead paladins and their fear immunity? -Cannot be control or commanded by turning as most undead. It is hard to destroy or control a creature with turning when it is actually multiple entities. They can, however, inccur all other effects of turning, such as being rebuked or turned Was this supposed to be, "Cannot be controlled, commanded, or destroyed by turning..."?I'm pretty sure that scorching ray is a ranged touch attack, so some characters may actually avoid it more easily than one that gives a save. Disintegrate is one of the few spells that requires an attack roll and a saving throw. It says in the description that the caster must make a ranged touch attack (like any ray), and that the target, once hit, gets a save.
Rustmonster 05-11-07, 07:17 PM	To Yabba: Thanks for the feedback. While I was a school today I had a few ideas to help with the immunities, as after looking at them again, there are way too many after all :P . And yes I did mean to say destroyed or commanded with regard to turning, thank you for pointing it out. I'm probably going to update the first post with my new ideas after I have supper.
fiendish_platypus 05-11-07, 07:20 PM	To Yabba: Thanks for the feedback. While I was a school today I had a few ideas to help with the immunities, as after looking at them again, there are way too many after all :P . And yes I did mean to say destroyed or commanded with regard to turning, thank you for pointing it out. I'm probably going to update the first post with my new ideas after I have supper. So what are the new ideas?
Rustmonster 05-11-07, 08:28 PM	Tada! Bye bye, most advantages of being undead! Now as far as i know, they are only immune to: Energy drain, death attacks, and disease. You may be asking, "but Rustmonster, it's still immune to poison!" Not quite! I recently bought Libris Mortis, and in it they have poisons that effect undead! So, it's only immune to some poisons now. Another idea I had was keeping most of the immunities, baring some, like the critical hit immunity, but instead of "immunity" to them, just give a resistance on rolls against them. This would still probably be too strong, but tell me what y'all think:P (Ewww, I said y'all... feel unclean...)
Rustmonster 05-11-07, 08:38 PM	:eek: ......... After looking at the stats for poisitoxins (undead-affecting poisons) I am scared. Most of them cause perminent damage to stats, and really don't cost that much. I'm kinda leaning more towards them being immune to poisitoxins and vulnurable to normal poison. Sounds like time for an OVERHAUL! Hurrah!
Rustmonster 05-11-07, 09:05 PM	Alright, now I think I may finally be done retooling this race. NOW I'm sure it has 0 Level Adjustment. I think...