Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Passivearmada 02-15-08, 03:57 PM	I've been wondering about some weaker races, and how they can manage to get by, competing with other, stronger races. Examples: kobolds and goblins. This is all that comes to mind immediately. These races are generally inferior, and while they have the potential to be very good, it taskes more work to get them there. Now I was wondering that if tieflings and aasimars and genasis and centaurs and azers get +X LA, then maybe these lesser races could get -X LA? So these guys would pick up XP faster than normal. Does this seem stupid or unfair to you? I would try it out in one of my games, but in our recent sessions, something goes terribly wrong, and I don't want our next one to, too. Any feedback is good feedback to me people. Thanks. ;)
bobothechimp 02-15-08, 04:51 PM	Kobolds get effectively +3 AC, goblins are small with 30' move speed. Both of them are fine, balance-wise. You seem to be underestimating the amount of power that a single level will add.
Cyrocloud 02-15-08, 07:54 PM	Kobolds also make ungodly good sorcerers if they become dragon wrought. Goblins are meh the 30 ft speed is a nice quality I'd personaly put them on par with half-elfs if not maybe alittle better.
ciaran 02-15-08, 08:09 PM	Kobolds also make ungodly good sorcerers if they become dragon wrought. Goblins are meh the 30 ft speed is a nice quality I'd personaly put them on par with half-elfs if not maybe alittle better. +2 or the +3 the kobold gets is what many small races would get. The Nat AC is a unique +0 LA ability and a good one but hardly puts them on par. I think the Kobold racial sub levels in Races of Dragon were very nice though. I'd like to try a Goblin rider some day. Their +4 Ride is easily overlooked otherwise.
runestar 02-15-08, 08:36 PM	The important thing to watch out for is how those negative LA would interact with spellcasting lvs, since players typically have little qualms about sacrificing stats for casting.
ciaran 02-15-08, 08:45 PM	Exactly. You're better off making the race more appealing to players if you think it needs it.
Soltares 02-15-08, 10:19 PM	Improve the race until it feels LA +0ish. Positive LA is a terrible kludge, and to add some sort of negative LA would only perpetuate the badness. The tweaks to the Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) mentioned on the WotC site could be one option to buff them up. Tweaking the stat penalties (such as the Con penalty, which doesn't make much sense anyway, since Kobolds have never been described as sickly, or the Str penalty to -2, equal to other Small races) could be another option. Personally, I'd do all of the above. A Kobold with the racial traits mentioned in Races of the Dragon and in the Web Enhancement, with stats of -2 Str and +2 Dex, would not be overpowered compared to a Dwarf or Gnome or Halfling. Goblins can also be tweaked to buff them up a tad. Give them something unique, with each 'clan' having a special 'Goblinoid trait' that might give them some other racial ability. Rock Goblins have +1 NA and can blend into rock and stone, or perhaps even have Stonecunning. Jungle Goblins blend into natural surroundings and have a Climb speed of 10 ft. Sea Goblins can hold their breath a long time and have a Swim spd. Fire Goblins have Fire Resistance 5. Alternately, it might not be clan-based or passed on so much as some chaotic trait that is random. (The player would obviously get to choose which of trait his goblin is going to have, but it won't necessarily have anything to do with his parents traits.) Sort of like Hordelings from 1E. Heck, Goblins could just gain the Fey subtype, rendering them immune to certain humanoid-effecting spells, and some miniscule magical talent (like the Gnomish three cantrips a day thing) due to their unseelie heritage.
Tordak 02-15-08, 10:28 PM	In a game I played we decide to give kobolds a free feat (much like humans) to compensate for their short coming. This could help making them as interesting as gnomes and dwarves, LA wise. You could do the same thing for goblin. If you have Races of the Dragons, Kobolds have a few nice option that makes them quite interesting to play. I would advise against the negative LA, but if you feel confortable with that go ahead. Except you should not go lower than -1. Even so, it makes quite a difference, having additional HD and BA and save with no LA cost.
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-15-08, 11:13 PM	Negative LA is always a horrible idea. No exceptions. Class levels just offer too much potential power, and having a head start on the arms race can make encounters too easy, and cause resentment among the players. Fluff, these races can get along by being cooperative and well-organized (kobolds) or extremely fast breeders (goblins). In practice, they can get along by taking inventory of their own strengths and weaknesses, emphasizing their good facets and avoiding situations that press their vulnerabilities. Kobolds I don't use too often, but goblins can easily keep up with the other PC races. Need a sneaky scout or thief? Goblins get the same size bonus on Hide as halflings, a better racial Move Silently bonus, move faster, and have Darkvision. Need a ranged attacker? Goblins get the same Dex boost as elves, and additional +attack and +AC from size. Need a magic-user? Goblins' Int and Wis are as good as any of the standard races, their armorless AC is tied with halflings' as being better than any other PHB race's, and they don't have a pesky Con penalty making already-fragile wizards more brittle like elves do. Need a meleer? Bad idea, to be avoided, but if you must you can still make it work. +4 racial to Ride makes for a good mounted charger, as does the Dex boost, and only needing a medium mount lets you take it into dungeons and caverns. Power Attack doesn't care what objective size weapons you're using (just how you wield them), and small size helps you connect. If you don't care for Power Attack, Weapon Finesse and alternate damage sources can be your friends (goblin swashbuckler/scout/dervish, anyone?). 30' move speed helps with avoiding slower (or heavily-armored) bigger melee units that might exploit your size to grapple. +Dex and favoured class: Rogue make it easy to keep your Escape Artist skill mod high, if you do choose to melee grapple-happy enemies. Need a party face? This is why you have allies rather than adventuring solo. But again, the situation isn't hopeless. Charisma penalties suck, but skill ranks quickly overtake the difference a 2 point ability score penalty makes. Disguise can help get past racial prejudices you may face. Alternately, use the racial prejudices: who are the monsters more likely to be willing to parley with, the goblin or the elf? Not all negotiations take place in the palace courtyard. All this is an exceptionally long way of saying, these creatures compete with others the same way anyone else does - using what advantages they have in the most effective way they can come up with. Kobolds and Goblins just have advantages that don't immediately jump out at folks who only read the ability score mods.
starkreality 02-16-08, 02:04 PM	While expanding the boundaries on 3.x, a player in my group like to use savage species as a guideline, and do whatever he wants to his races. We've houserules on "generic" LAs, i.e. taking a +1 to gain fast healing 1, 2, or 3. Choosing less than 3 comes along with bonus feats. Typically, this is combined with making a standard race one (or more) size categories smaller, each of which such reduction reduces a characters LA by 1. The character he currently wants to build is a fine size half-dragon human. Also, he wants to play a stirge sorcerer, but thats a different thread entirely.
ashmanonar 02-18-08, 03:39 PM	I'm curious, would you consider Half-orcs to be in the same boat? 2 negative penalties, rather than just one? Yes, they have a Strength bonus, but unless you're a barbarian or other martial class, it's useless. There are a couple other things that Half-orcs get (Darkvision, and...nothing else.) Would you put that strength bonus so much higher than actual racial bonuses? Or would a negative LA be in order? Or maybe even a racial HD?
CrimsonDeath 02-19-08, 04:43 PM	Kobolds tend more toward R-selection than K-selection. That is to say, they reproduce and mature quickly, so there's less social investment in any particular individual. Furthermore, they're industrious and they defend themselves intelligently (with traps). Plus, their low Strength and Constitution is balanced by Small size (with 30' speed), +2 Dex, and +1 natural armor, a total of +3 AC just from racial traits. And then there's the fact that those Kobold tribes that happen to serve a Dragon have a Dragon looking after them. Goblins frequently associate (as a lower social caste) with Hobgoblins and Bugbears, both of which have >0 LA. On top of that, Goblins are better off in combat than Halflings-- with +10' speed, +2 Move Silently, and +4 Ride (if they happen to have access to Worgs, wolves, riding dogs, ponies, or Barghests). The only clear combat advantage Halflings have over Goblins is +1 on thrown weapon attacks, and projectile weapons are generally superior to thrown weapons. The Goblin's -2 Charisma only really hurts in social situations (since a Goblin spellcaster is more likely to be a Cleric, Wizard, or Adept than a Bard or Sorcerer), and that shouldn't have a devastating impact on their overall racial survivability. Unfortunately, goblinoids haven't been as fleshed-out as many of the other races, but I get the impression that they tend toward R-selection as well (not as much as Kobolds, but more so than other humanoids). And for both races, Darkvision shouldn't be underestimated. Kobolds suffer from Light Sensitivity, but Sundark Goggles take care of that for 10gp. I'm curious, would you consider Half-orcs to be in the same boat? 2 negative penalties, rather than just one? Yes, they have a Strength bonus, but unless you're a barbarian or other martial class, it's useless. There are a couple other things that Half-orcs get (Darkvision, and...nothing else.) Would you put that strength bonus so much higher than actual racial bonuses? Or would a negative LA be in order? Or maybe even a racial HD? Good point. I think the Goblin may actually be a stronger choice than a Half-Orc. The Goblin does, at least, get a few racial traits other than ability score modifiers, and the Half-Orc's Strength bonus isn't especially exciting after about level 7.
Bergtann 02-20-08, 10:47 AM	Rather than give the critters a negative level adjustment, have you considered giving them the special ability to pay 1 less in level adjustment for a template? So Kobold = LA 0 and Draconic Kobold = LA 0, but for LAs over 1 you get the LA -1. I'd supplement by ruling all templates that advances spellcasting not subject to this rule. Such as White Dragonspawn. And you can't use the UA buyoff rules to buy off the nonexistent LA, of course. Edit: Thematically, such an ability would make sense for Mongrelfolk, but they'd have to be a lot weaker for it to be balanced... Edit 2: Only applies to one template, no stacking 1 level templates for free!
Jopustopin 02-21-08, 02:21 PM	I made a kobold barbarian for a level 1 tournament. Str 14 -> 18 when raging Feat: Tail Attack (from races of dragons) Full attack 2 claws +6 (1d3 +4) 1 bite +1 (1D3+2) 1 tail +1 (1d4+2) Where to go from here? Multi-Attack, Improved natural attack --> Thayan Gladiator. I won the tournament. The +3 To AC (+1 dex +1 Nat +1 size) negate the barbarian penalties to raging.