Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nova Fujit 03-16-07, 10:10 PM	Ok here is the problem that I am more of making sure I have this right I am currently DMing the game and a Player has asked to play a wearbear (natural not afflicted) as is he already has a character that he is running so it is likely that this character would be coming in much later. At the moment I am pretty certain that I will not allow this character to be in my game. Mostly my concern here is the PC having a +16 STR mod and the base HP of the bear which ends up to be something in the nature of 60 some odd HP out of the box...[edit] oh must not forget the 10DR/silver, magic just for example points at the moment he would have 3 levels of fighter and a LA+3 if the rest of the characters were level 6 about the time this happened. That said I am going to be a bit open minded and ask the weak points of a charactor like this. Armor seeming is going to be a problem seeing that one cannot fit a large body into a medium size set of armor so hitting him is not going to be that big of a deal... People also tend to fear the whole lycantropy thing as well. even though he is a fun loving bear =P please add more to this I am thinking that this character will outshine the rest of the party and that is a no no, because...well I don,t think I need to explain that.
WarDragon 03-16-07, 10:22 PM	You don't seem to understand how racial Hit Dice work. Since brown bears have 6 HD, the earliest he can play a Werebear is level 9, and that's with no class levels at all. Still seem unbalanced?
Nova Fujit 03-16-07, 10:28 PM	That would indeed change things quite a bit.
Tevin Kevlak 03-16-07, 10:34 PM	The downside that you're not seeing is that in order to determine the Werebear characters ECL (effective character level) you add in any level adjustment (in this case +3) plus any racial HD (in thise case 6 for a Werebear) and then any class levels he might have. For your above exmaple the player couldn't even play a Werebear if the rest of the PC's are level 6. A "straight outta the box" Werebear has an ECL (is the equivalent level to) a level 9 PC. You add the +3 level adjustment to the 6 Werebear HD and you get the minimum starting ECL of such a character... it's 9. So if your player wants to play a Werebear character he has to at least waith until the party has 9th level characters and even then he will have no class levels until he gains enough XP to become a 10th level PC. The downsides to such a character are that while in werebear or bear form he cannot make multiple attacks with natural weapons, he can attack once with each natural weapon he has if he takes a full attack action. He will also have a fairly poor B.A.B. of +5 for a combat oriented character this can be a problem. Also, having only 6 levels of 9 that give the character hit points, and those are d8 HD... not exactly the greatest, will also detract from his survivability as a melee oriented character. You also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned his AC, unless he has a specific type of armor (the name of which escapes me at the moment) it will form into his body when he changes and become inert (ie it wont do anything for him) and he has to deal with just his dex modifier and his natural armor bonus. Another big downside is the fact that his base saving throws will be considerably lower for a character of his level. Now, those beefy bonuses to stats that the Werebear gets make up for a few of these downsides but such a character shouldn't be disruptive to the game compared to his allies at the same level. Remember that as an ECL 9 Werebear with no class levels the character wont be proficient with any weapons or armor and as such should not be allowed to spend his wealth on such items (in my opinion of course). If the player buys a big bad +3 greatsword that he just carries around and doesn't use until he gains a level of fighter and then uses nothing but, I'd slap him in the mouth and tell him to go home... but that's just me.
FrostWolf 03-16-07, 10:38 PM	You don't seem to understand how racial Hit Dice work. Since brown bears have 6 HD, the earliest he can play a Werebear is level 9, and that's with no class levels at all. Still seem unbalanced? Wrong. characters need to have a class level, so level 10 is the soonest. Try this. He levels up in the were bear, instead of just going right to max power. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a
Tevin Kevlak 03-16-07, 10:40 PM	Is there an official source that says such? Because I have official sources that say otherwise such as the savage species racial progressions.
obrysii 03-16-07, 10:42 PM	Wrong. characters need to have a class level, so level 10 is the soonest. Incorrect. Characters do NOT need class levels--they need HD.
Tevin Kevlak 03-16-07, 10:46 PM	Yeah, exactly.
FrostWolf 03-16-07, 10:50 PM	Incorrect. Characters do NOT need class levels--they need HD. :uh-huh: :noway: :allalone: :surrender :tantrum: :detect: :shifty: Time for me and "Mister Hammer" to have a word with the DM then....
enygmatic_me 03-16-07, 10:57 PM	Here is one thing you need to consider with these types of characters. Yes, their HD and BAB tend to be low, but they also have really good ability score modifiers. A +5 BAB sounds bad, but when you consider that the +16 Strength translates into a +8 to attack and damage. This means the Attack Bonus is actually a +13. Less attacks per round, but they will hit more regularly. With a +8 Con modifier that is +4 HP per HD, or and additional 24 Hit Points. D8 HD averages 4.5 HP per level, times 6 HD equals 27 HP. Plus 24 HP (from bonus con modifier) equals 51 HP before considering what the actual constitution is. A 9d8 HD character that has an 18 con averages 76 HP. The difference is 25 HP. If the constitution of the wearbear was also a base 18 they would gain another 24 HP and be only 1 HP behind the normal character. So HP is balanced. All in all, the Wearbear is a fine character for it's adjustments and is balanced or a little behind a typical human character of the same ECL.
Tevin Kevlak 03-16-07, 11:02 PM	True they will hit more often but having a +5 B.A.B. means that they are considerably stunted when it comes to feat and PrC aquisition. For example the party human barbarian could have Improved Critical by the time the Werebear can join the party, or Improved Two-Weapon Fighting or he could be Frenzied Berserker by that time while the Werebear is just a Werebear with 3 feats and no class features.
enygmatic_me 03-16-07, 11:11 PM	It may only have 3 feats, but most characters are around that point. And for the class features it lacks it gains some really nice racial features. It has Improved Grab, a rather good DR (you only have to worry about silver weapons - magic no longer cuts it), low-light vision, and scent. The +16 Strength and +8 Constitution doesn't come with fatigue and is constant. No barbarian can claim that. Looking Closer they are also proficient in their natural attacks, all simple weapons, throwing axes, the great sword, and the greataxe. They also have six feats listed for a character with a base of a level 1 warrior that I am unsure how they got them.
Tevin Kevlak 03-16-07, 11:23 PM	Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at character level 6 is also constant and no ECL 6 Werebear can achieve it... I fail to see your point. And no, most characters at ECL 9 do not have 3 feats they have 4. 1 feat at 1st, 1 feat at 3rd, 1 feat at 6th and 1 feat at 9th. You know what else gets Low-Light Vision and scent? A wolf, but I wouldn't compare them to many class features. Also, I believe that the Werebear can only use Improved Grab while in it's Bear form and is thus restricted to only 3 attacks each round. Edit: I don't think that Werebears are proficient with those weapons. The Werebear presented in the Monster Manual is because it has 1 level of Warrior. It says under the Humanoid type that Humanoids use the proficiencies of their class not the race if they only have 1 humanoid HD. Since the 6d8 HD a Werebear has are referred to as it's animal HD it would not gain the proficienies in these weapons until it took a class that granted them.
enygmatic_me 03-16-07, 11:39 PM	Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at character level 6 is also constant and no ECL 6 Werebear can achieve it... I fail to see your point. And no, most characters at ECL 9 do not have 3 feats they have 4. 1 feat at 1st, 1 feat at 3rd, 1 feat at 6th and 1 feat at 9th. You know what else gets Low-Light Vision and scent? A wolf, but I wouldn't compare them to many class features. Also, I believe that the Werebear can only use Improved Grab while in it's Bear form and is thus restricted to only 3 attacks each round. I didn't say that all character at 9th level had 3 feats I said that it was around that. 4 feats is around 3 feats. In Hybrid form they are still capable of using their weapons and a medium greataxe is a one handed weapon in Hybrid form. That leaves them capable of making a claw attack as well. Or they have the option of fighting in bear form and getting the claw/claw/bite. That combo alone will cause a minimum of 20 points of damage before rolling dice. If the claw hits they get to start a grapple for free. If successful their target can only attempt to escape while the wearbear continues to deal damage. Unless the two weapon fighter is wielding silver weapons they will cause little to no damage to a wear bear per attack on average. A 1d6+4 (from an 18 strength) is still only 10 points of damage, or 0 damage after the wearbear's DR is calculated. With a BAB of +5 and the right skill and feat selections a Wearbear can enter some PrC's without ever taking levels in a base class. So, my point would be that a wearbear, as a character, is on par with other characters of their ECL.
Nova Fujit 03-16-07, 11:43 PM	Thanks a ton guys this really helped out a lot
WinterPsionic 03-16-07, 11:44 PM	You would be correct sir, the only proficiencies the Bear would have would be with its Teeth and Claws.
enygmatic_me 03-16-07, 11:50 PM	You would be correct sir, the only proficiencies the Bear would have would be with its Teeth and Claws. Incorrect, the shapechanger subtype says it is proficient in any weapons mentioned in it's description, as well as any armor. If proficient with armor they are also proficient with shields.
Part-Human2 03-17-07, 01:19 AM	...And no, most characters at ECL 9 do not have 3 feats they have 4. 1 feat at 1st, 1 feat at 3rd, 1 feat at 6th and 1 feat at 9th. .... No feat at 9th -- feats come by HD and the 6 HD +3 LA werebear has 3 (+1 if based on human) + Iron Will as a bonus. Dragon Magazine 313 has the 9 level Savage Progression class for werebears (take only 8 if afflicted). When completed, they can directly enter the Warshaper PrC (CW) without taking any class levels as they meet the Prerequites nicely. Without that Savage Progression class; If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature (such as a vampire or lycanthropy; see the Monster Manual), it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).
Xaktsaroth 03-17-07, 01:47 AM	Werebear Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a) Have him take levels in that. It'll keep his ECL right at the same level as the party, and he can slowly take on Werebear traits.
FrostWolf 03-17-07, 01:56 AM	Werebear Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031114a) Have him take levels in that. It'll keep his ECL right at the same level as the party, and he can slowly take on Werebear traits. Hey. I already posted that!
Ogrebear 03-17-07, 08:16 AM	If you want to go for a extra boost take an Orc as your base character...+4 str on top of the Werebear stats.....yummy. Plus the Orc would be LG which can add a nice wrinkle in the roleplaying of it all.
TokTok 03-17-07, 08:45 AM	Think of it as a Winnie the Pooh adventure!
Neutronium_Dragon 03-17-07, 09:31 AM	> Incorrect. Characters do NOT need class levels--they need HD. Lycanthropes, however, specifically *do* require a class level or a racial hit die from some other source, because they're a template being applied to an existing creature - and that creature has to have a hit die already before the template gets applied. Moreover, that class level or racial hit die is considered their first hit die (and thus gets the max HP, 4x skill points, and so on) - not their animal form hit dice. That's why all of the example lycanthropes are at least 1st level warriors.
Tevin Kevlak 03-17-07, 02:07 PM	No feat at 9th -- feats come by HD and the 6 HD +3 LA werebear has 3 (+1 if based on human) + Iron Will as a bonus. Dragon Magazine 313 has the 9 level Savage Progression class for werebears (take only 8 if afflicted). When completed, they can directly enter the Warshaper PrC (CW) without taking any class levels as they meet the Prerequites nicely. Without that Savage Progression class; That's what I said, other characters would get that 4th feat for being 9th level whereas the Werebear would not... Yes, in Hybrid form they can use their weapons and they can make a claw attack but since it says that in hybrid form they do not gain any of the animal forms special attacks they cannot use improved grab in conjunction with that claw attack. Also, while being grappled no where does it say that the one who is the target of the initial grapple must only attempt to escape the grapple each round. With an unarmed strike or a light weapon that character could attack the werebear just as the werebear can attack him. With say, a Silver Unholy Shortsword perhaps? There are numerous tactics for disposing of any werecreature just as their are for disposing of any character that's exactly what I was saying, that a Werebear of the same level is on par with a character of the same ECL. Apparently I was confused when you decided to list off a number of benefits of the werebear in response to one of my posts as if the werebear were the superior choice. If that isn't what you intended that's how i took it, so I'll apologize. Seems like we're saying the same thing, Enyg.
Jaxgaret 03-17-07, 03:51 PM	If you want to go for a extra boost take an Orc as your base character...+4 str on top of the Werebear stats.....yummy. I'm pretty sure that the Orc's physical stats would only apply while in normal shape. When in bear form, the character would have a bear's physical stats, not the bear's + the orc's.
enygmatic_me 03-17-07, 03:51 PM	That's what I said, other characters would get that 4th feat for being 9th level whereas the Werebear would not... Yes, in Hybrid form they can use their weapons and they can make a claw attack but since it says that in hybrid form they do not gain any of the animal forms special attacks they cannot use improved grab in conjunction with that claw attack. Also, while being grappled no where does it say that the one who is the target of the initial grapple must only attempt to escape the grapple each round. With an unarmed strike or a light weapon that character could attack the werebear just as the werebear can attack him. With say, a Silver Unholy Shortsword perhaps? There are numerous tactics for disposing of any werecreature just as their are for disposing of any character that's exactly what I was saying, that a Werebear of the same level is on par with a character of the same ECL. Apparently I was confused when you decided to list off a number of benefits of the werebear in response to one of my posts as if the werebear were the superior choice. If that isn't what you intended that's how i took it, so I'll apologize. Seems like we're saying the same thing, Enyg. The tone of a post is easy to misinterpret and happens to everyone. I'm just glad it's cleared up. I enjoy a good debate, not so fond of when it turns in to an argument though.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-17-07, 06:15 PM	> I'm pretty sure that the Orc's physical stats would only apply while in normal > shape. When in bear form, the character would have a bear's physical stats, > not the bear's + the orc's. No. With lycanthropic shapeshifting, the wereform stats modify your base stats rather than replacing them. (Which is important because otherwise wereforms would have unequal effects depending on who they're being applied to, despite having equal costs.)
Fallenangel359 03-17-07, 11:00 PM	I wrote up a savage species progression for weretiger... its a tiny bit front loaded, but not horribly so. Its a highpower gestalt game with only one real caster, and hes warmage/dreadnecromancer. Works for my game.
Jaxgaret 03-18-07, 01:48 AM	> I'm pretty sure that the Orc's physical stats would only apply while in normal > shape. When in bear form, the character would have a bear's physical stats, > not the bear's + the orc's. No. With lycanthropic shapeshifting, the wereform stats modify your base stats rather than replacing them. (Which is important because otherwise wereforms would have unequal effects depending on who they're being applied to, despite having equal costs.) Whoops. Yeah, you're right. My bad.
Fallenangel359 03-18-07, 12:38 PM	true lycanthropes are significantly more powerful than afflicted... 5 more dr/silver, and controlshape without skill checks
Skrillex 03-18-07, 11:43 PM	Ask him to play Bear Warrior?
Spikes01k 03-19-07, 12:19 AM	Also you should note that nearly all magical energy by passes damage reduction. Which means a normal spell of inflict light wounds or burning hands completely ignores DR. If you don't believe me, check the DMG full description of DR in the back of the book. Edit: Damage Reduction A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below. The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability. Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus. Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature. When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction. A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction. A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have). Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact. Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells. If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. Source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction