Post/Author/DateTime	Post
periscope 05-17-07, 11:55 PM	Hi. I dont normally post in the races thread but Im apparently the only one in my group who goes on the WizO boards. We were having a discussion and they wanted to hear other peoples opinions (we have 2 guys for vamp 2 for wer. I wont say which one I am). We'll use human as the base template. Dont worry, the vamp and lycanthrope's are in the SRD so its Open Game Content. The werewolf will be provided with natural and an afflicted view, as well as the werewolf lord. Plz tell me if there is a vampire lord template that is not a prc, as I know of none. Werewolf gives 2 claw (1d4) and 1 bite (1d6). +2 unnamed to natural armor in all forms, +4 in animal or hybrid forms. 2 hit dice (d8) +constitution bonus. If in animal form, a +20 ft bonus to speed. higher if a werewolf lord. Can inflict lycanthropy on others with natural attack. Werewolf has 3 forms, so if they attack in animal form then it delays search for them. Can also use hybrid form if they keep it disguised enough to turn suspicion away from a lycanthrope. Gain Shapechanger subtype Gives scent and +4 on survival checks to track by scent. Werewolf has DR 5/silver afflicted and DR 10/silver natural. Bonuses to interactions with wolves. Low light vision Good Fort save is not possessed before. +2 to str, +4 to dex, +4 to str, higher if werewolf lord. +2 to wisdom for being a lycanthrope. extra skill points. Gain Iron Will and Track as bonus feats. Can trip in animal form. Has +2 la if afflicted +3 if natural Requires skill check to control if afflicted, none if natural. Vampires Gain Undead type and all its advantages and disadvantages. All Hit die increased to d12 Gain a +6 improvement to natural armor Gains 1d6 Slam attack that can inflict a 2 negative levels with each hit. Gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level inflicted. Can inflict 1d4 constitution damage to pinned opponent for each round they're pinned and gains 5 temporary hit points per successful round of pinning. Can summon 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour. Can use a Dominate effect (as dominate person) on opponents as a standard action. Can create loyal spawn of victims who's constitutions are drained to 0 through their blood drain ability. Gains: Alternate Form (Su): A vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. This ability is similar to a polymorph spell cast by a 12th-level character, except that the vampire does not regain hit points for changing form and must choose from among the forms mentioned here. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.) Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round. Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. Resistances (Ex): A vampire has resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10. Spider Climb (Ex): A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell. Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire has +4 turn resistance. Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score. Skills: Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature. Feats: Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats. Vampire Weaknesses For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses. Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship. They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all. Slaying a Vampire: Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent). Vampire Characters Vampires are always evil, which causes characters of certain classes to lose some class abilities. In addition, certain classes take additional penalties. Clerics: Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery. Sorcerers and Wizards: Vampire sorcerers and wizards retain their class abilities, but if a character has a familiar other than a rat or bat, the link between them is broken, and the familiar shuns its former companion. The character can summon another familiar, but it must be a rat or bat. So your thoughts, which is better? Also if anyone knows a better forum for this to be in, please tell me.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 12:20 AM	> So your thoughts, which is better? Which is better for what? As a player character race? In general the werewolf will be a better choice simply because a werewolf is only dealing with an ECL of +4 or +5 (afflicted or natural) which includes two racial hit dice, whereas the vampire is (if I recall) ECL +8 with no racial hit dice included in that. So you're comparing something like a natural werewolf barbarian 4 (with a total of six hit dice and probably a decent Con bonus) to a vampire barbarian 1 (with a total of one hit die and no Con bonus). This means that the werewolf not only has several more class levels when they're both at an equal level (and class levels are where the real power lies), but actually has the hit points to survive being poked with anything more dangerous than a sewing needle. Though his hit points are still dangerously on the low side when dealing with anything that can bypass his DR, the vampire is going to be pancaked by pretty much any attack which he'll be facing as a 9th level character (his minimum). And the moment that vampire runs into a 9th level cleric... ouch. Generally, lycanthropes make a reasonable PC race if you're careful to play to their strengths. A vampire's level adjustment is just far too high to be manageable; they're definitely not a particularly viable creature type for normal gameplay. A vampire *might* be workable in an entirely social campaign, but if a fight ever breaks out he's going to be sent scurrying off to his coffin in the first round. By the same token, the werewolf's abilities aren't as much use here (though if you get creative, they can still find application). That said, if you're using 9th level characters, a 9th level human bard, beguiler, or even Enchantment-focused arcane spellcaster is going to do better overall simply because they've got high level spells and/or a ton of skill ranks compared to the vampire. True, the vampire is harder to kill permanently in some ways than the werewolf or the plain human (although by 9th level, opponents probably have the resources to track down his coffin) - but his ability to make a meaningful contribution is seriously lacking.
captianhowdy 05-18-07, 12:29 AM	Well, if you take such an obvious one, if your a vampire, everything has to be done at night. Werewolves are more flexible. Also tho, you have to concider "must feed on blood" to "the occasional uncontroled beastial rampage"
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 12:38 AM	The bestial rampage isn't a problem for a natural lycanthrope, though it will be a problem for an afflicted one (unless he pumps Control Shape, which most probably will). One other thing I should point out, though: A werebear or weretiger is generally considered to be a better choice than a werewolf because, relative to the ECL, you get a much better set of benefits (especially stat modifiers). Although this does come at the expense of further class levels, so it depends on what you're doing with the character. (But here again, if you compare a natural werebear/weretiger barbarian 1 to a vampire barbarian 2 (both 10th level), the werebeast is going to be making a far more useful contribution in a general adventuring situation.)
periscope 05-18-07, 01:12 AM	I chose werewolf for its Classic touch. The Werewolf Lord however probably falls into what the classic one with be (without items it has a str of 30) also its easy to imagine werewolf. I kind of have trouble envisioning a were tiger (I dont have trouble with the concept, its that the dont have a picture of it in the MM and my imagination is shot). The closest Ive seen to a weretiger is that mutant from the old Gargoyles cartoon (the ones that included Elisa's brother) minus the wings.
captianhowdy 05-18-07, 01:24 AM	Just look up the Bloody Roar game for it. Forgot the guys name, but there were two who turned into kinda tiger-hybrids
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 01:27 AM	Here're a couple of images: Angelfire miniature: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/af_gallery/28.jpg Lycanthropes in Races of Faerun: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49743.jpg
Optimator 05-18-07, 01:54 AM	Breath of Fire III has a pretty good Were-Tiger.
periscope 05-18-07, 01:58 AM	Ok, thx for the images. Ok maybe Ill change the subject. If you have a werewolf lord Vs a vampire with an equal CR, who would you think would win? Given the average gold for their CR (14)? Im pretty sure both can beat the others DR (both have DR/silver).
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 05:42 AM	CR or ECL? They're two very different measurements. That's probably a question for the character optimization forum given the amount of number crunching which would be involved in giving an answer, but it boils down to whomever is better prepared for the confrontation. The problem is that when you start trying to measure things in "one vs one" confrontations it quickly falls apart because that's not how creatures (or PCs) are rated within the system, and in such a specific situation you can tweak your setup however you want to produce the result you want.
El_Machinae 05-18-07, 07:22 AM	A vampire should smoke a werewolf. The fast healing, DR advantage, and gaseous form prettywell negate most of the werewolf's physical attacks. And sequential negative levels from slams will ruin someone.
Lionhearted 05-18-07, 07:29 AM	^^ the werewolf takes levels as cleric to equalize itself to the vampire then castes deathward and turns the vamp
vegetalss4 05-18-07, 07:55 AM	i know of a vampire lord template. it is in the Retired Articles under monster mayhem. and it do have all of the vampire power and more, AND none of thier weaknesses, AND it its impossible to kill.
Lionhearted 05-18-07, 08:03 AM	I know that you can apply the lycanthrope template to a fenri or legendary wolf (Ephb) :rolleyes:
Alyss 05-18-07, 08:10 AM	Clearly vampires are better. They are so much more cool ^_^
Lionhearted 05-18-07, 08:12 AM	Clearly vampires are better. They are so much more cool ^_^ Nah vampires are so mainstream in these days, everyone dream of being a vampire, that makes them so uncool :P
Holy_Beholder 05-18-07, 11:35 PM	All the typical were forms suck. Vampires on the other hand still have a massive amount of weaknesses. If the werewolf knows about these weaknesses, the vampire is screwed. It depends mostly on the class though. A wizard or sorcerer vampire is more dangerous than a warblade or barbarian, because they get a real bonus from the HP, a balancing factor for mages. For werewolves, melee classes are probably the best. Although if it were a were elephant, the vampire would be screwed. Plus, imagine the vampires face as the seemingly easy peasant victim turns into a massive elephant and charges.
HammerSmashed 05-19-07, 02:44 AM	Well if the vampire took Vampire lord Template then he would win. Since a vampire lord would never go anywhere w/o its army or cronies.
periscope 05-20-07, 12:38 AM	Well the werebeing could appeal to the vampires pride by accusing him of being a weakling without his minions, as he's not willing to fight his own battle. If he is truly the better combatant then he will surely fight his own battle or prove his cowardice (that worked on a vampire in our games and severed some of the links to its spawn) Also for werecreatures there is a new school of martial maneuvers that only beings with access to the control shape skill can use that has some good maneuvers. How about the example vampire lord (its OGC dont worry) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a vs the werewolf lord from the SRD http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 ? The only thing we'd need to do is give the werewolf lord an extra level and redo its gear for a 15th level encounter.
Dragoloth 05-20-07, 01:24 AM	Werecreature for the win. The werecreature finds the vampires coffin and crumbles the building around it. Then in daylight he digs up the coffin and opens it exposing the vamp to the beautiful uv-rays.
Holy_Beholder 05-20-07, 10:49 AM	That does sound werewolf like. Stay in a garlic laced tent with mirrors and holy symbols all over the place until day, travel towards vampire, when night falls, repeat, then you can brutally slaughter them.
Lionhearted 05-20-07, 03:33 PM	That does sound werewolf like. Stay in a garlic laced tent with mirrors and holy symbols all over the place until day, travel towards vampire, when night falls, repeat, then you can brutally slaughter them. I think vampire lords are immune against those things.. but, why not simply research a "true daylight" spell ^^
Ace_of_time 05-20-07, 08:29 PM	I wonder what would happen if the werewolf got cought in the grapple of a vamp and was drained down to 0 con then buried for a few weeks?;)
lordofskulls 05-20-07, 09:00 PM	Mechanically a werewolf would be a great deal better. Although for a PC, unless you're playing as a fighter or some other weak class, its like being four or five levels worse than you should be. However Vampires are much cooler than werewolves, so I say Vampires are better.
Dragoloth 05-20-07, 11:56 PM	If I was a werewolf and really wanted a vampirelord dead I would simply find a group of qualified adventurers to do it for me. I could even see them during the day.:)
gundarc 05-21-07, 11:13 AM	Had you not considered the Half Vampire template? only a +2 LA and most of the advantages of the Vampire! ST DEX and CHA +2 Fast Healing +1 hp per round up to half HP DR 5 Silver/Magic one of: Blood Drain, Children of the night or Charm gaze +2 natural armour only disadvantage is if you take Blood Drain you get Blood dependency!
Lionhearted 05-21-07, 06:19 PM	Had you not considered the Half Vampire template? only a +2 LA and most of the advantages of the Vampire! ST DEX and CHA +2 Fast Healing +1 hp per round up to half HP DR 5 Silver/Magic one of: Blood Drain, Children of the night or Charm gaze +2 natural armour only disadvantage is if you take Blood Drain you get Blood dependency! No spiderclimb? screw that...
NerdNumber1 05-22-07, 01:53 PM	I perfer lycanthropes as a player race because they aren't afraid of the sun or garlic. If you must be a vampire, go vampire spawn or possibly half-vampire. +8 LA is too much for all those cripling weaknesses. In other games, movies, and shows, where you don't have to worry about LA (ie being too strong for your own good), Vampires are awsome. Remember, for the sake of balance, being a god-like being comes at a price (so wizards is actually saying vampires are great by putting them out of reach). Edit: And for those who don't already know, Libris Mortis asigned the vampire spawn an LA of +4. It also has a full 8 level racial class mapped out.
HammerSmashed 05-23-07, 08:19 AM	Well its obvious that people have not done any reading or may just have bad memory. Since well we are going to dig up the coffin of the Vampire Lord and destroy it and let the sun at it….. News for you buddy Vlords can walk around at daylight….They aren’t affected by bullcrap garlic or that running water BS either. Its got like what 28 AC with no armor on?? Using elite array??? That wolf might as well go in the corner and start cutting himself…..becouse well he just plain sucks butt.....
Lionhearted 05-23-07, 10:51 AM	Still, why is it always vampires vs werewolves? they aint even similar. i still prefer the wolves for several reasons *thanks to emo's, goths and vampire culture + the horrendous amount of bad modern vampire movies.. Vamps are so lame * When you turn fanged, you die. thats right, die.. your soul is trapped in a dead body.. and news flash you aint behind the wheel anymore (did you think that the change of alignment was just for flavour) * No sunny beachs.. pale skin are so unsexy * Werewolves are normal most of the time but must still find peace with their dual nature or be consumed by it leading to that they have mindsets of steel * Fur might be considered a downside but hell, i rather have a warm cozy fur, than cold blood through my veins. it work for the ladies ;) * Animal instincts! * Animalistic attraction! the only real downside of being a werewolf is that you can ONLY be killed by silver, and if you dont get in charge.. your maligant (Yes the spirit aint really but the human body corrupts the manifestation of it) self will utterly destroy your social life. and besides.. there are cures for lycanthropy.. LOTS of them. but i never really encountered a cure for vampyrism..
NerdNumber1 05-23-07, 05:06 PM	For those who want a vampire werewolf, but are unsure if the rules work, and want it to be slightly playable, try a half vampire aflicted werewolf. No undead type (no turning and easy raising), lots of the special powers of both and a ecl of +6 (2 of which being hit points). You don't even have to worry about template order because neither change your type. (And for the record, I believe that vampires in most literature and media are cooler than werewolves, but that vampires are almost unplayable in D&D (Spawns are ok, but not good spellcasters.))
Ace_of_time 05-23-07, 09:38 PM	You can take a natural wereanimal and add vamp to it. And it will not be against the rules.
LeuktheSavior 05-24-07, 11:18 AM	All a werewolf would have to do is appeal to a Druid. The druid would then report to its circle of the vampire menace. the druid circle could then contact the local church, and if they can act diplomatically, the two divine forces could work as one to completely annihilate the vampire, behead the thing, mix its ashes into some holy water, throw the bottle of holy water into a bag of holding, throw the bag of holding into a bag of devouring.
Ace_of_time 05-24-07, 09:17 PM	:confused:
boogyman 05-25-07, 11:08 AM	i know of a vampire lord template. it is in the Retired Articles under monster mayhem. and it do have all of the vampire power and more, AND none of thier weaknesses, AND it its impossible to kill. something that is impossible to kill has an infinite CR because it can kill anything given time. in reality this doesn't really work
vegetalss4 05-25-07, 04:27 PM	something that is impossible to kill has an infinite CR because it can kill anything given time. in reality this doesn't really work hey it says it cant be a pc. and the closets you can come to kill them is is to cut its head from its body, burn the body and the head separately, scatter the ashes from the body over running water, immerse the ashes from the head in holy water, and bury the immersed ashes in consecrated ground. However, if the head ashes are ever unearthed and somehow separated from the holy water, dried thoroughly, and then subjected to an unhallow spell, the vampire lord can regenerate in a week if the ashes are placed inside one of its places of rest. so you can almost certanly destroy them... BUT they can always come back. Dun Dun Dun.
periscope 05-26-07, 02:31 AM	hey it says it cant be a pc. and the closets you can come to kill them is is to cut its head from its body, burn the body and the head separately, scatter the ashes from the body over running water, immerse the ashes from the head in holy water, and bury the immersed ashes in consecrated ground. However, if the head ashes are ever unearthed and somehow separated from the holy water, dried thoroughly, and then subjected to an unhallow spell, the vampire lord can regenerate in a week if the ashes are placed inside one of its places of rest. so you can almost certanly destroy them... BUT they can always come back. Dun Dun Dun. thats a scary thought :b
DX2052 05-26-07, 04:13 AM	Werebats end of topic.
jollythehappyminotaur 05-26-07, 07:48 PM	wait a second here. the question was which is better. it seems like everyone here is focused at satistics. what is wrong with you people. its not a question of satistics. thats not what DND is about. which one you like better or would rather play should be based on the roleplaying aspect. simpily which one do you like better. i have always had a lot of trouble deciding between the two and which one is cooler. i have played nither but i think the werewolf would be more fun to roleplay. the whole losing controlle thing and becoming this great beast is awesome. i like the idea of resorting to primal instinct.
Lionhearted 05-26-07, 09:39 PM	Also some lycanthropes allow for insane charge combos with Pounce ok.. i hit you with my 17 attacks which none has less than +70 to hit, for a grand total of 40,000 damage
Kaldric 05-26-07, 10:28 PM	If I learned anything from the movie "Van Helsing", it's that Werewolf vs Vampire = Awesome heh