Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melayl 06-15-07, 02:28 PM	This is an attempt to make werewolves and other lycanthropes into playable races. You’ll find that my progression leads to a much more powerful werewolf, if taken for all 20 levels. That is intentional (WoTC didn’t do lycanthropes the way I think they should be). This racial progression may seem overpowered compared to other races/classes, and it might be. That’s one of the reasons I’m posting it. Keep in mind, however, that every racial level taken is one less class level you can take. I intended to make it relatively balanced compared to a class (druid, so it may be overpowered). Also keep in mind that anything you don’t like, you can change for your campaign. I’d like to hear thoughts on the race, flavor, and balance. I can’t promise that I’ll change things as I have them written, but I certainly wish to hear what folks have to say. Werewolves are typically humans or other humanoids with Shapechanger subtype. Natural werewolves do not have any of the racial bonuses humans or other humanoids have. Archetypal Shape: werewolf racial traits cannot be gained by polymorph/metamorphosis/shapechange/etc special abilities (like the Sharn). Alignment: any, usually lawful Wolves are pack animals, and packs, by necessity, are ordered groups. It follows that werewolves would be similar. Lone werewolves tend more towards chaotic. HD: D8 Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy (wolves/canines only), Handle Animal (wolves/canines only), Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Spot, Survival Skill points at 1st level: (2+INT mod)x4 Skill points each additional level: 2+INT mod BAB: 3/4 Saves: Fort & Ref good, Will poor Werewolf racial levels only count as ½ for purposes of total character level for stat bonuses. In the table below, the x:y refers to abilities in human form:wolf/hybrid form. Level Special Abilities 1st +2 STR, DEX, CON, Natural AC; DR 1/silver, wolf form, fast healing 0:1/2, search/spot/listen +2:+4, Lycanthropic empathy +4, low-light vision, scent lesser:greater, fast movement 5, lifespan 1 2nd +2 CHA 3rd +2 STR, DR 1/silver, fast movement 10 4th +2 CON, fast healing ½:1 5th +2 STR, DEX, DR 2/silver, hybrid form, +1 nat AC, fast movement 15, lifespan 2, Animal Magnetism 6th Lycanthropic empathy +6, search/spot/listen +4:+8, Call Wolves 1/day 7th +2 STR, DR 3/silver, fast movement 20 8th +2 CON, Quickened Change, fast healing 1:2, dire wolf form 9th +2 STR, DR 4/silver, fast movement 25, Call 2/day 10th +2 DEX, +1 nat AC, greater scent all forms, Lycanthropic empathy +8, lifespan 3 11th +2 STR, DR 5/silver, large hybrid form, fast movement 30 12th +2 CON, fast healing 2:4, Call 3/day 13th +2 STR, DR 6/silver, fast movement 35 14th Lycanthropic empathy +10, Dominant, search/spot/listen +6:+12 15th +2 STR, DEX, +1 nat AC, DR 7/silver, fast movement 40, Call 4/day, lifespan 4 16th +2 CON, fast healing 3:6 17th +2 STR, DR 8/silver, fast movement 45 18th Lycanthropic empathy +12, Call 5/day 19th +2 STR, DR 10/silver, fast movement 50 20th +2 DEX, CON, +1 nat AC, fast healing 4:8, lifespan 5 Racial features: Werewolves are proficient with their natural weapons and simple weapons, but no armors. Stat bonuses(ex): Werewolves are stronger, heartier, and more agile than “normal” creatures. The bonuses apply in all forms and are cumulative. Natural AC (ex): bonus to natural AC in all forms. Bonuses are cumulative DR (ex): applies in all forms at the listed amount for level Wolf form (ex): as a standard action, you may change into a medium wolf. You retain all your stats and skills and feats, but gain all the other physical properties of a wolf, with additional benefits as listed below for alternate forms. At 8th level you may assume the form of a Dire wolf Fast Healing (ex): includes instant reattachment. Rate in human form is ½ that in alternate forms (i.e. the 1:2 is 1 in human form, 2 in alternate forms) Skill bonus (ex): Due to preternaturally keen senses, you gain the listed bonus to search/spot/listen checks. Lycanthropic Empathy (ex): communicate with wolves/canines in all forms, bonus to social-type interactions with said and with werewolves of 4 levels lower. Low-light vision (ex): in all forms Scent (ex): In human form you have the lesser scent ability. In alternate forms you have the scent ability. Upon reaching 10th level, you have the full scent ability in human and alternate forms. Fast Movement (ex): Werewolves are preternaturally quick in all forms. Add the listed amount for level to movement rate for all forms. Lifespan (ex): being a werewolf extends your normal lifespan. 1 extends lifespan to 500 years, 2 to 1000 years, 3 to 1500 years, 4 to 2000 years. At lifespan 5, penalties for aging no longer accrue (although bonuses still accrue ever 100 years), your physical appearance no longer changes with age, and you will not die of old age (you basically become immortal). Hybrid form (ex): medium anthropomorphic form. Stats as per human form, with additional benefits as per wolf form. Bite 1d6, claw 1d4. Movement speed 40. At 11th level, gain access to Large form (bite 1d8, claw 1d6). Animal Magnetism (ex): At 5th level, if CHA is 16+, ½ of the Lycanthropic Empathy bonus applies to social interactions (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, etc) with all other creatures. Call Wolves (su): call 1d4+CHA bonus wolves, arrive in 2d6 rounds, stay for hours = CHA bonus, obey commands. Quickened Change (ex): Changing forms becomes a move action instead of a standard action. If you have the Rapid Change feat, it becomes a swift action. Dominant (su): at 14th level with CHA 16+, may command/dominate werewolves of lower level and CHA. Number = CHA bonus/use, number uses= 1+/CHA bonus/day. Lasts hours = CHA bonus. Inflicting lycanthropy is more difficult with this new ruleset. The victim must be reduced to 0 or fewer HP solely by natural attacks by the lycanthrope(s), and fail a DC 15 Fort save, and lose 1 level (if applicable), which is replaced by 1st level werewolf. Racial feats Rapid change (werewolf) Changing forms is now a move action, or a swift action at 8th level. Blindsense (werewolf) Prereq: 10th level werewolf Your preternaturally keen senses grant you additional awareness. Gain blindsense in a 15’ radius. Special: May be taken multiple times, ranges cumulative. If you like this format, I think it can be easily adapted to the other lycanthrope types. If there is enough interest, I may do the others (with suggestions from those interested). I may end up doing a similar workup for vampires, if I get around to it.
Holy_Beholder 06-15-07, 05:53 PM	What about BAB, saves, and other stuff like that?
Melayl 06-15-07, 07:21 PM	HD: D8 Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy (wolves/canines only), Handle Animal (wolves/canines only), Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Spot, Survival Skill points at 1st level: (2+INT mod)x4 Skill points each additional level: 2+INT mod BAB: 3/4 Saves: All Good With the large volume of text in that post, it can be easy to miss some things.
Rerecros 06-15-07, 07:25 PM	Shifter were-touched master (ecs) is a much better option.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-15-07, 08:44 PM	> Diplomacy (wolves/canines only), Handle Animal (wolves/canines only) Class skills don't work that way. If you want them to be better at those things with wolves, make them non-class skills and provide a bonus when dealing with wolves.
Melayl 06-15-07, 09:00 PM	Shifter were-touched master (ecs) is a much better option. I am aware of the shifter. It's alright, but not what I'm thinking of. I haven't heard of the were-touched master before, though. Were might I find it? > Diplomacy (wolves/canines only), Handle Animal (wolves/canines only) Class skills don't work that way. If you want them to be better at those things with wolves, make them non-class skills and provide a bonus when dealing with wolves. They already do get a bonus with wolves (Lycanthropic Empathy). I wasn't aware that skills couldn't be specialized like that, RAW. I'll probably houserule it in my games, since it's that way in other systems I play. I appreciate the feedback from both of you.
Rerecros 06-15-07, 09:11 PM	ecs, the eberron campaign setting, it's a PrC that allows shifters to gain something close to the the powers of true Lycanthropes, and unlike your class it takes only five levels instead of twenty.
IronFistMonkCerberlain 06-15-07, 11:12 PM	can u multiclass with this? like take 3 levels in this, then take 2 in barbarian
Melayl 06-15-07, 11:20 PM	can u multiclass with this? like take 3 levels in this, then take 2 in barbarian Yes, you may multiclass. I would suggest requiring every other level taken to be werewolf, but that's just me. Multiclass your heart out. Barbarian would be a good choice. I'd also suggest Psychic Warrior, Totemist, and Ranger. Possibly Warshaper as well, although I don't know the requirements for that one. ecs, the eberron campaign setting, it's a PrC that allows shifters to gain something close to the the powers of true Lycanthropes, and unlike your class it takes only five levels instead of twenty. Ahh. Ok, don't have Eberron. I might have to check that at the bookstore. I had thought about a lower number of levels, but I thought I couldn't cram the power level that I wanted them to obtain into 10 or even 15 levels without it being majorly unbalanced. I wanted something you could take exclusively and still be viable and powerful.
IronFistMonkCerberlain 06-16-07, 12:01 AM	this is pretty wicked(in a cool way, not a broken way), since its multiclassable. instead of every other level has to, u could also make it that if the total of your other classes exceeds your werewolf level u take a negative on xp gain (stacking with regular multiclass penalties), around 3-5%
Melayl 06-16-07, 12:04 AM	That sounds reasonable... Like you said, I don't think it's broken -- but I'd love to see what the folks at the CO boards could do about that ;)
rampant 06-16-07, 01:28 AM	Ok I think your going for Werewolf as a class right? Ok lets start from the begining A wolf, and thus a werewolf, uses animal HD lets start there, mostly a perfect match to what you've got there. Except you have the will save is too high. The fast healing and DR abilities could be combined, give them a regeneration type ability that fails against a progressively narrow list of attacks, at the first stage, they have regeneration 0 bypassed by Piercing, Slashing, Silver, energy, and aligned damage. As the were-wolf pprogresses he knocks things off the list and increases his regeneration number until level 20 where he has Regeneration X bypassed by Silver and Fire. I think A big problem you have is You're trying to make something between a race and a class, without ready made monster stats like the other savage progressions. When you intencionally stretch a HD granting template to 20 levels what you have is more a class than a monster. Stop thinking like a monster maker, think like a class builder.
Part-Human2 06-16-07, 01:32 AM	You erred on the side of ridiculously powerful. All good saves, DR 15/silver, Fast Healing, +6 Natural armor and +20 STR, +10 DEX, +12 CON to ability scores, on top of everything else. Usually a Monster Class has LA built into it. I'd suggest you keep the existing Werewolf class (either the WotC website or Dragon Magazine 313) and make a racial Paragon Class (UA) or a PrC.
rampant 06-16-07, 01:36 AM	I think this can be made into a workable alternative. Just needs alot of tweaking and yes some reduction on power level.
asurademon 06-16-07, 02:51 AM	yeah, I agree it's a bit too powerful. Lowering a save would help, perhaps give them a poor will save? If I remember right lycanthropes have something called iron will, but that never made sense to me. I've always envisioned werewolves having serious problems controlling their instincts and anger, lots of inner turmoil, and not especially a strong will (though I'm sure there could be some which eventually manage to build up an iron will to cope, I think that should be more of an exception to the rule). I think they really should gain ability bonuses slower as well.
Khatoblepas 06-16-07, 03:05 AM	What about a class like Ghostwalk's Eidolon? Instead of having a werewolf class, which is kinda restrictive for a base class, have a generic were-creature one, so they can pick feats allowing them to specialise? That way you can have werewolves as an LA+0 race.
zeratulcraft 06-16-07, 03:09 AM	Could always change the +2 to stats to +1's instead.
Soulless_Enigma 06-16-07, 06:47 AM	Pesonally, I think it does need toning down a bit. Drop one save (as others have mentioned, probably Will) to low. I'd also make the suggestion of the DR being double a similar-level barbarian's DR, as the DR granted by this class can be overcome, unlike the barbarian's. Also drop the Fast Healing. Lycanthrope DR represents the intant healing of wounds. All that aside, I do quite like the concept. Those who say the ability adjustment are high may be right, but as I see it, they are class' main strength. Perhaps change it to the standard animal ability ajustments when in the appropriate form? Just my 2cp
Melayl 06-16-07, 02:19 PM	Wow, alot of responses! Thanks! I'll try to answer all items brought up. 1. Saves: I had originally been following the shapechanger type guidelines from the 3.0 rules. However, I do agree that a save could be dropped. I also agree that it should be Will. I'll try to edit that in after I finish this post. 2. DR and Fast Healing: I'll try to explain my reasoning for having both. I have been basing my version of werewolves on werewolf myth and fantasy that I like. In such literature, werewolves heal very quickly, but not instantly. Hence, fast healing. Silver, however, does not heal as quickly, but it still heals on it's own. While anything can harm a werewolf, most things cause less damage. Exceptions being silver, energies, and magic. Hence the DR. Now, I could get rid of one or the other, but I'd have to strengthen the remaining option to get closer to fitting my ideal. As it stands, the DR progresses rather slowly (I thought -- I might be willing to lower the progression to 1 every odd level, for a max of 10/silver at 19th level). The Fast healing is also rather slow to progress (maximum of 8 at 20th level), and they only gain their maximum benefit it their alternate forms. I did set it up so they keep most of their abilities in all forms, because that's the way I've always seen them portrayed in literature. As with the DR, I may be willing to lower the progression (to what, I'm not sure yet), but I don't think I'll remove either. The fast healing and DR abilities could be combined, give them a regeneration type ability that fails against a progressively narrow list of attacks, at the first stage, they have regeneration 0 bypassed by Piercing, Slashing, Silver, energy, and aligned damage. As the were-wolf pprogresses he knocks things off the list and increases his regeneration number until level 20 where he has Regeneration X bypassed by Silver and Fire. Hmm...I'm slightly puzzled as I read this, but I think it gets clearer as I re-read it a few times. I'll have to think more about it, and perhaps you could try to explain a bit more. It seems like something that may work, but I don't know. 3. Stat increases: As Soulless_Enigma pointed out, they are the main strength of the class/race. All the werewolves I've read about are incredibly strong, agile, and tough. I wanted to reflect this, while not making them too strong at lower levels. Yes, as Par_Human2 states, they have +20 STR, +10 DEX, +12 CON, but that's at 20th level. Casters are warping reality at that level, multiple times a day. (yes, yes, I know, casters are more than a bit overpowered at high levels, but still). Werewolves get no bonus feats, no casting ability, bottom of the ladder skill progression and weapon selection, no armor without feats, moderate BAB progression (admittedly offset somewhat by their strength bonus). I feel that the stat bonuses are adequately balanced, and I don't think they need to be changed, even with the other abilites they have -- after all, they're flippin' werewolves! 4. Natural Armor: As I pointed out in the above answer, they gain no armor proficiency. They would need to multiclass or spend a feat to gain it. They gain a total of +6 at 20th level. A rather meager bonus at that level of combat. Yes, their Dex does go up, which does increase their AC, by +5 at 20th level. A whopping +10 AC at 20th level. Something tells me that won't be sufficient... (yes, they can get magical assistance just like everyone else, but everyone else can too, and wear armor besides) I think A big problem you have is You're trying to make something between a race and a class, without ready made monster stats like the other savage progressions. When you intencionally stretch a HD granting template to 20 levels what you have is more a class than a monster. I was exactly trying to make something between a class and a race. I thought my image of a werewolf was too powerful to be done as a LA race, or even a 10-level paragon or savage progression. I intentionally streched it out to 20 levels in an attempt to give it the progression to power I was looking for while still keeping it playable as a PC. Stop thinking like a monster maker, think like a class builder. I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. If you could elaborate, I'd like to listen. What about a class like Ghostwalk's Eidolon? Instead of having a werewolf class, which is kinda restrictive for a base class, have a generic were-creature one, so they can pick feats allowing them to specialise? That way you can have werewolves as an LA+0 race. I don't have Ghostwalk, so I'm not sure how that would work. As to the generic were-creature type, as I stated in my OP, it could be easily adapted to the other types, but I do think it should be specific to type of creature. I may be mistaking what you were trying to say, though. Were you meaning granting them feats to use to gain racial abilities instead of a progression of set racial abilities? Ok, I think I've gotten to everything, but I've probably missed something. I'll think more about what all of you have said, and try to make some changes. Thank you all again for the input.
drade 06-16-07, 02:25 PM	Did I stumble into the wrong Hobby game forums..... j/k Looks ok.
rampant 06-16-07, 05:21 PM	Regeneration as I understand it is like the bastard love child of DR and Fast Healing. It converts any damage to subdual, unless the damage is of a type that bypasses that monsters regeneration ability. Trolls for example take all HP damage as subdual unless its fire or acid damage. In addition many creatures with regeneration heal subdual damage more quickly than normal, often x points per round. Though in theory a creature with Regeneration 0 would heal at a normal rate, it would still be able to recover from beatings that would lay low a titan. My suggestion is to grant them this ability and as the were wolf increases in level have them increase the amount of subdual damage healed per round, and drop damage types off the list of things that can kill them. My advice is to treat this as a class, not a race. Ditch this: "Werewolves are typically humans or other humanoids with Shapechanger subtype. Natural werewolves do not have any of the racial bonuses humans or other humanoids have." and this: "Werewolf racial levels only count as ½ for purposes of total character level for stat bonuses." And what is this here for: "Archetypal Shape: werewolf racial traits cannot be gained by polymorph/metamorphosis/shapechange/etc special abilities (like the Sharn)." Essentially stop using racial terminology with these guys. Call it a race all you want, but its mechanicly identical to a class. It should therefore not interfere with the progression of the base race abilities and the normal aquisition of feats and ability score increases. The next thing I'd worry about is the shifting unlike a normal werewolf you're talking about pretty massive boosts, and it looks like this class doesn't lose out on much by never using humanoid form. Maybe there should be some more rules governing how long one can stay in their beastial forms?
IronFistMonkCerberlain 06-16-07, 09:37 PM	i wold stay away from regeneration, unless its regeneration 0 fast healing is strong, but regeneration is just plain cheap try fighting a troll without fire or acid u basically have to kill it twice, and it heals the whole time ur fighting while the DR/silver is makes it hard to fight them without silver, regeneration bypassed by silver is like trying to kill a troll without fire and acid also, anyone trying to powergame with this will probably drop one level in fighter for armor proficiencies its kinda hard to use armor when ur a wolf(it requires either specially crafted armor or a certain magic enchant)
rampant 06-17-07, 12:21 AM	the idea is that they do't gain regen till mid levels, and they have a long list of vulnerabilities, useful but not game breaking, besides once they get you unconcious they can still just coup'de gra until you fail a massive damage save, or just bury you under a rock. Its not hard to deal with regen, you just have to be creative.
Melayl 06-17-07, 11:48 AM	Regeneration as I understand it is like the bastard love child of DR and Fast Healing. It converts any damage to subdual, unless the damage is of a type that bypasses that monsters regeneration ability. Trolls for example take all HP damage as subdual unless its fire or acid damage. In addition many creatures with regeneration heal subdual damage more quickly than normal, often x points per round. Though in theory a creature with Regeneration 0 would heal at a normal rate, it would still be able to recover from beatings that would lay low a titan. My suggestion is to grant them this ability and as the were wolf increases in level have them increase the amount of subdual damage healed per round, and drop damage types off the list of things that can kill them. I'm going to stay away from Regeneration. I think it will put this into the way overpowered category. While it is thematically a good idea, mechanically it is just too strong. My advice is to treat this as a class, not a race. It is really no different from a paragon race, except that it goes 20 levels instead of 10. Ditch this: "Werewolves are typically humans or other humanoids with Shapechanger subtype. Natural werewolves do not have any of the racial bonuses humans or other humanoids have." Why? and this: "Werewolf racial levels only count as ½ for purposes of total character level for stat bonuses." Werewolves already get darn good stat increases. I didn't see the need to grant them as good a progression of extra any stat stat bonuses as the classes gain. So I put it that instead of gaining a stat bonus every 4 levels (like the classes do), you need 8 werewolf levels to gain one. Werewolf levels will still count, just not as much. It's a mechanic to keep them from getting too powerful. And what is this here for: "Archetypal Shape: werewolf racial traits cannot be gained by polymorph/metamorphosis/shapechange/etc special abilities (like the Sharn)." It's there to keep someone from using polymorph/etc to change into a werewolf and gain their (ex) and (su) abilities. I only wanted "real" werewolves to gain the benefits. (yes, I know errata made it more difficult to gain (ex) and (su) abilities. Essentially stop using racial terminology with these guys. Call it a race all you want, but its mechanicly identical to a class. It should therefore not interfere with the progression of the base race abilities and the normal aquisition of feats and ability score increases. Yes, it is mechanically like a class. It's also mechanically like a paragon race. It's a matter of semantics. You say one, I say the other. I'll keep saying race -- that's what it is to me. I don't understand what you're saying about not interfering with the progression of racial abilities and such. The next thing I'd worry about is the shifting unlike a normal werewolf you're talking about pretty massive boosts, and it looks like this class doesn't lose out on much by never using humanoid form. Maybe there should be some more rules governing how long one can stay in their beastial forms? Other than interactions with other races, there isn't any reason a werewolf would need to use their human form, especially after they gain their hybrid form. I feel werewolves would be "at home" in any of their forms. I would expect that there are many who would rarely, if ever, leave their wolf or hybrid forms. However, they can't use armor or use-activated items in wolf form, or speak in wolf form. They can't use weapons in wolf form. They certainly can't go into town in wolf or hybrid form without expecting to get attacked. Being part of an adventuring party would be difficult without using their humanoid form for a majority of the time.
rampant 06-17-07, 03:31 PM	The issue with this "Werewolves are typically humans or other humanoids with Shapechanger subtype. Natural werewolves do not have any of the racial bonuses humans or other humanoids have." You don't think there's something wrong with this? THis means that a human were-wolf has no bonus feat, no extra skill points, but a human barbarian who multiclasses in does. Does that seem silly to anyone else? Seriously? Am I the only one who thinks this is a problem? As to the shifting, its just too much. Normal lycanthropes eventually have to take class levels designed for humanoids capable of verbal cummunication, these classes help mitigate somewhat the impulse to simply remain in a bestial state. These guys do not. In addition created lycanthropes have to make skill checks in order to control their shape, maybe that would be the ideal balancing factor.
Melayl 06-17-07, 08:30 PM	The issue with this "Werewolves are typically humans or other humanoids with Shapechanger subtype. Natural werewolves do not have any of the racial bonuses humans or other humanoids have." You don't think there's something wrong with this? THis means that a human were-wolf has no bonus feat, no extra skill points, but a human barbarian who multiclasses in does. Does that seem silly to anyone else? Seriously? Am I the only one who thinks this is a problem? That is exactly the way I intended it to be, to avoid being more powerful than they already are. Natural werewolves are werewolves, not humans (or elves, halflings, or what have you). They may look like humans, but they're not. Inflicted werewolves start out as some other race, and thus have the abilities of that race. If it makes you feel better, you can have inflicted werewolves lose (or cease progression) of any former racial traits to balance it out. As to the shifting, its just too much. Normal lycanthropes eventually have to take class levels designed for humanoids capable of verbal cummunication, these classes help mitigate somewhat the impulse to simply remain in a bestial state. These guys do not. In addition created lycanthropes have to make skill checks in order to control their shape, maybe that would be the ideal balancing factor. Which is also exactly as I intended. I wanted werewolves to be able to continue as just werewolves and still be able to "keep up" with the rest of the party. Also, as I said, if they are part of a group, they'll need to stay in humanoid (or at least hybrid) form most of the time in order to communicate with the rest of their group. Again, if you wish, you may change it if you adapt them to your world. While I don't happen to agree with all of your suggestions, I do appreciate your comments and input. Please contribute any other thoughts you might have. Like I said in my first post, I can't promise I'll change anything, but I do like to hear other points of view.
rampant 06-18-07, 12:12 AM	Ok question does an ogre-werewolf have its stat bonuses? does it keep its large size in normal form? Does a halfling become medium? seriously describe how this works then? What about the LAs?
Khatoblepas 06-18-07, 06:52 AM	Melayl: The Eidolon class is a class that Ghosts from ghostwalk have to take. The Ghost itself is an LA+0 template, but it must always take at least half it's levels in Eidolon. The Eidolon class itself has a feat progression like the Fighter, and grants extra ghosty abilities. When I suggested to look into it, I was thinking that it would look more elegant and playable if it gave a degree of customisation. Perhaps the feats, instead of just being generic, could require a certain animal ability? (Claw attacks could lead into a Rend tree, etc) You still keep the DR/silver in the class progression, as that applies to all lycanthropes. Also, class features > stat mods. You don't need a lycanthrope to be almost godly in their ability scores, as it would make more sense that the werecreature would be more skilled at using their shapechanging and feral abilities, not just simply being stronger. And what of spellcasters? Why should they get left out of the loop when it comes to lycanthropy? Lycanthrope should stay a template, so that anyone can get it and access this class, not just natural lycanthropes. Good idea, though :)
Melayl 06-18-07, 12:08 PM	Ok question does an ogre-werewolf have its stat bonuses? does it keep its large size in normal form? Does a halfling become medium? seriously describe how this works then? What about the LAs? We'll start with the Natural werewolf "Halfling": It would retain the Small size, Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. It would also lose 4 Str and gain 2 Dex, due to size mods, and keep the movement speed of 20. It's wolf and hybrid form would therefore be small as well, dropping the bite to 1d4 and the claw to 1d3 (I believe). Upon reaching 8th level it would gain the Medium wolf form, and upon 11th level it would gain the Medium hybrid form. There would be no LA, since halflings had none and the werewolf LA is covered in the werewolf levels. Now the Natural Werewolf "Ogre": They would keep their Large size, Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. They would no longer have their usual stat mods, but due to their large size they would have: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, and +2 natural AC. They would no longer have penalties to Int or Cha, since they're not really Ogres, they're werewolves. They would also keep their 10' reach and their 40' base speed. Their wolf form would be Dire and their hybrid form Large. Upon reaching 8th level, their wolf form would become Huge, with a 2d6 bite. Upon reaching 11th level, their hybrid form would be Huge, witha 2d6 bite and a 1d8 claw. Their LA would be +2 for the Ogre (size mod), possibly down to +1, but I'd keep it +2. They would have no LA for their werewolf as it is covered in the levels. Does that answer your question. Basically for "alternate" cases like these you'd just have to do a little modification. Khatoblepas: Your feat idea does sound intriguing, and I'll have to think on it more. Perhaps if I find a cheap copy of Ghostwalk it could become easier. I appreciate your thoughts, and I will contemplate things for awhile. If I make any changes, I'll let you know.
Melayl 06-18-07, 12:13 PM	And what of spellcasters? Why should they get left out of the loop when it comes to lycanthropy? I've never really considered lycanthropes as spellcasters (lycanthropes being more of a melee terror, in my mind). They would, of course, benefit from the DR, fast healing, and boosted Con and AC. Beyond that, I don't know. Did you have any particular thoughts as to why they should benefit, and how?
Saryn 06-18-07, 12:54 PM	Generally it's great. I thougt about creating base class similar too this, but more flexible, giving person ability to transform to a single signature,unique creature which abilities would grow in power and number over levels. Problem is my english:D 1) But about your work, I think that making it something between class and race makes it too complicated. You should treat it as a normal 20 level class and give it at 1st level ability that its abilities cannot be duplicated by Factorum's Cunning Brilliance or similar effects. That is exactly the way I intended it to be, to avoid being more powerful than they already are. Natural werewolves are werewolves, not humans (or elves, halflings, or what have you). They may look like humans, but they're not. Inflicted werewolves start out as some other race, and thus have the abilities of that race. If it makes you feel better, you can have inflicted werewolves lose (or cease progression) of any former racial traits to balance it out. So there is no diffrence between dwarven and elven werewolf? What about drow or ork? They suddenly lose vulnerability to sunlight? It limits roleplaying and mechanic possibilities not to mention that creates many problems. 2) Also, stat bonus are too strict. What if someone want to make less strong but more agile werewolf? Maybe on 2rd or 3rd level there should be chance to chose which phisical stats are 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade. They would increase in progression +2 for 2 levels for high stat, +2 for 3 levels for medium and +2/4levels for low one. At 20 level it would give +20, +12 +10 like yours. 3) Diminishing its power in humanoid form would be good thing. There is nothing against taking at 1st level Martial weapon proficiency: Two-handed Sword and taking this 1+1/2 bonus from strenght to better use. I suggest cutting in half stat bonuses and natural armor in humanoid form. 4) Delete diplomacy from skill list and "wolves only" from handle animal. First one simply don't fit to theme, exchange it with druid-like empathy, only with great bonus for canines and penalty for other animals and beast. It's simpler. As you said "wolves only" is yours houserule, and not all DM would use it. It should be option not rule. 5) Werewolves already are mistic creatures, and I think giving them ability similar to monks Ki strike(magic), but for natural weapons would be useful and won't hurt it's balace. Also ability to treat it's claws as silver but only against oother lycanthrope.
Holy_Beholder 06-18-07, 01:43 PM	Do you have a were leopard statted out anywhere?
kadeity 06-18-07, 01:46 PM	theres an issue of dragon magazine that has MONSTER CLASS levels for lycanthropes. so um...use that? i think its issue 315?
Melayl 06-18-07, 02:10 PM	@Saryn: You (along with others) bring up some good points. I'll try to address them. 1) Right now, no, there is no difference between a dwarf, elf, orc, drow, or any other Natural werewolf other than size. This is because they just look like that race, but they are werewolves. Inflicted werewolves keep all their original racial traits and add the werewolf traits to them. Right now. 2) Thanks to feeback from you and the others who have posted, I'm already thinking of some changes to allow flexibility. It may take me awhile to get them close to any semblance of orgainized and post them. 3) I will consider that, but I'm still not sure. 4) Also a good idea for me to consider. I hadn't actually thought about that...it is a rather good idea. 5) I'll consider the Ki-like ability -- probably for the new incarnation I'm attempting to work on. As a side note, their natural attacks already attack as silver (creatures with DR attack with their natural weapons as if they were the type that bypasses their DR). @Holy_Beholder: You could probably use what I have already, and change the name. You may wish to switch the progressions of Str and Dex (or all three), depending upon how you veiw wereleopards (agile vs strong vs tough). And possibly give them a climb bonus and/or a hide bonus. You could offer racial feats to allow the improved grab, pounce, and rake abilities as well. If you wish more difinitive changes or more help in the matter, just ask. @kadiety: I don't have Dragon, or access to it, unfortunately. However, if it is anything similar to the Savage progression posted on the Wizards site, it's not close to what I'm trying to do.
Melayl 06-20-07, 02:20 AM	Ok, thanks to some long, boring night shifts, I should have the new generic lycanthrope 20-level progression (with lots of feats and choices) posted by the weekend. I've used alot of suggestions from this thread (thanks to all of you for the input and ideas). Rampant, I've even reconsidered some of your suggestions that I had originally disagreed with, and would like your help polishing the rough edges off my new plan when I get it posted. I'd like all of you to help, actually. I'll put up a link here when it's done.
Melayl 06-22-07, 03:30 AM	This is the link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=871662) to my new version, as promised.