What do you think of the Varag? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What do you think of the Varag? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dheran
09-12-06, 09:25 AM The Varag is a new goblinoid in the Monster Manual IV (page 168). As a medium-sized humanoid it's one of the forms that you can assume with the Alter Self spell, and it gets the Run and Spring Attack feats. It seems like a decent choice if you want to do some skirmishing. What do you folks think about the race?
runestar
09-12-06, 10:35 AM It doesn't look too appealing stat wise, its LA is too high, IMO.

Like you said, its probably good only as a new target for shapechange spells like alter self.
HomerJaySimpson13
09-12-06, 12:12 PM I like the fluff of the race, i would play one.
Dheran
09-12-06, 12:19 PM What exactly do you like? It seems to me the racial feats (getting Spring Attack without the normal prerequisites of Dodge and Mobility) make up for some of the LA penalty if you want to be a skirmisher. What class would you choose as a Varag, and how do you think it would stack up to a core race skirmisher of the same adjusted level, say monk or scout?
HomerJaySimpson13
09-12-06, 01:09 PM i suppose what i like the most is the way Wotc protraied them through the eyes of the hobgoblin's. the idea that they run on all four limbs like a gorilla and i really like the speed. if i played one it would be either a ranger or scout, and if i was in a spell casting mood maybe a druid, but diffenitly a nature based class. i dont know if it would stand up in a one on one fight with a equal level monk. it all depends on how you are fighting.
Dheran
09-12-06, 03:33 PM I don't have my books here at work. What's the speed comparison for a Varag monk vs. a human monk? IIRC, the monk's fast movement kicks in at level 3. The Varag is like 3 HD (can't be more than 5, as I was specifically looking at it from the perspective of Alter Self), but I'm not sure what the exact LA is if you're starting as a Varag. How do these races rate for speed if they're both monks?
HomerJaySimpson13
09-12-06, 04:01 PM I don't have my books here at work. What's the speed comparison for a Varag monk vs. a human monk? IIRC, the monk's fast movement kicks in at level 3. The Varag is like 3 HD (can't be more than 5, as I was specifically looking at it from the perspective of Alter Self), but I'm not sure what the exact LA is if you're starting as a Varag. How do these races rate for speed if they're both monks?

The Varag i belive is ECL 5 and a movement of 60ft, a monk according to SRD is +10ft at 5th level.
PiedmonSama
09-12-06, 04:30 PM I'm pretty sure MMIV had a table for progressing in Varag as a character class, to eliminate ECL adjustments. Not that I'd be really interested in playing one--it'd be hard for an Int 6 character to stay interesting for me to RP.
Dheran
09-12-06, 04:31 PM Cool. That means the Varag monk is faster than the human monk at equivalent level, plus it has the Run feat to really get cranking. So maybe this isn't just a nifty race for Alter Self. I'll have to try playing a Varag monk sometime. Probably not a scout, because of the skill points.
HomerJaySimpson13
09-12-06, 04:40 PM I'm pretty sure MMIV had a table for progressing in Varag as a character class, to eliminate ECL adjustments.

you still have 2 levels with no HD and every thing tied to them.

Not that I'd be really interested in playing one--it'd be hard for an Int 6 character to stay interesting for me to RP.

just because the Varag has a 6 int doesnt mean you will you would. you roll your own stats and then you would have a -4 to int.
PiedmonSama
09-12-06, 04:51 PM Unless you're hot on the dice or you start off with an insane point buy number, you'd be nerfing yourself to blow a 14-12 on Int for a Varag Barbarian or whatever.
pawsplay
09-12-06, 11:00 PM Why? A 14 doesn't even cost extra in point buy, it's just points.
Dheran
09-13-06, 11:37 AM 14 is the highest starting score you can get with point buy before paying a premium, so with the -4 racial penalty to INT you're looking at a final score of 10, meaning no bonus to skill points whatsoever. This might be OK for a Barbarian, but I wouldn't want to play a Scout without more skill points. For a Monk I'd probably max out Tumble, Hide, Spot, and Listen -- basic skills for a skirmisher -- and be really happy that I get a racial +8 to Move Silently. You can never have too many skill points, and the Varag costs quite heavily here.
runestar
09-13-06, 12:48 PM Not to mention the suckiness of humanoid HD...:(
Dheran
09-15-06, 09:39 AM Not to mention the suckiness of humanoid HD...:( And how is that sucky, in comparison to a monk?
TheGiftHorse
03-02-07, 10:17 PM I like it alot, and I dont even mind the level adjustment, but I dont understand why they only have a speed of 40 when theyre PCs. It just doesnt make sense to me, and c'mon, theyve got an ECL of 5.

I'm building a Varag Urban Ranger, and they mesh so well. Im tempted to add levels of bloodhound at some point in time, as well.
Balthanon
03-02-07, 10:34 PM I like it alot, and I dont even mind the level adjustment, but I dont understand why they only have a speed of 40 when theyre PCs. It just doesnt make sense to me, and c'mon, theyve got an ECL of 5.

I have a feeling they forgot to add the speed increases into the racial class. I would increase the speed by 10 feet at the same levels they gain their move silently bonuses.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dheran 09-12-06, 09:25 AM	The Varag is a new goblinoid in the Monster Manual IV (page 168). As a medium-sized humanoid it's one of the forms that you can assume with the Alter Self spell, and it gets the Run and Spring Attack feats. It seems like a decent choice if you want to do some skirmishing. What do you folks think about the race?
runestar 09-12-06, 10:35 AM	It doesn't look too appealing stat wise, its LA is too high, IMO. Like you said, its probably good only as a new target for shapechange spells like alter self.
HomerJaySimpson13 09-12-06, 12:12 PM	I like the fluff of the race, i would play one.
Dheran 09-12-06, 12:19 PM	What exactly do you like? It seems to me the racial feats (getting Spring Attack without the normal prerequisites of Dodge and Mobility) make up for some of the LA penalty if you want to be a skirmisher. What class would you choose as a Varag, and how do you think it would stack up to a core race skirmisher of the same adjusted level, say monk or scout?
HomerJaySimpson13 09-12-06, 01:09 PM	i suppose what i like the most is the way Wotc protraied them through the eyes of the hobgoblin's. the idea that they run on all four limbs like a gorilla and i really like the speed. if i played one it would be either a ranger or scout, and if i was in a spell casting mood maybe a druid, but diffenitly a nature based class. i dont know if it would stand up in a one on one fight with a equal level monk. it all depends on how you are fighting.
Dheran 09-12-06, 03:33 PM	I don't have my books here at work. What's the speed comparison for a Varag monk vs. a human monk? IIRC, the monk's fast movement kicks in at level 3. The Varag is like 3 HD (can't be more than 5, as I was specifically looking at it from the perspective of Alter Self), but I'm not sure what the exact LA is if you're starting as a Varag. How do these races rate for speed if they're both monks?
HomerJaySimpson13 09-12-06, 04:01 PM	I don't have my books here at work. What's the speed comparison for a Varag monk vs. a human monk? IIRC, the monk's fast movement kicks in at level 3. The Varag is like 3 HD (can't be more than 5, as I was specifically looking at it from the perspective of Alter Self), but I'm not sure what the exact LA is if you're starting as a Varag. How do these races rate for speed if they're both monks? The Varag i belive is ECL 5 and a movement of 60ft, a monk according to SRD is +10ft at 5th level.
PiedmonSama 09-12-06, 04:30 PM	I'm pretty sure MMIV had a table for progressing in Varag as a character class, to eliminate ECL adjustments. Not that I'd be really interested in playing one--it'd be hard for an Int 6 character to stay interesting for me to RP.
Dheran 09-12-06, 04:31 PM	Cool. That means the Varag monk is faster than the human monk at equivalent level, plus it has the Run feat to really get cranking. So maybe this isn't just a nifty race for Alter Self. I'll have to try playing a Varag monk sometime. Probably not a scout, because of the skill points.
HomerJaySimpson13 09-12-06, 04:40 PM	I'm pretty sure MMIV had a table for progressing in Varag as a character class, to eliminate ECL adjustments. you still have 2 levels with no HD and every thing tied to them. Not that I'd be really interested in playing one--it'd be hard for an Int 6 character to stay interesting for me to RP. just because the Varag has a 6 int doesnt mean you will you would. you roll your own stats and then you would have a -4 to int.
PiedmonSama 09-12-06, 04:51 PM	Unless you're hot on the dice or you start off with an insane point buy number, you'd be nerfing yourself to blow a 14-12 on Int for a Varag Barbarian or whatever.
pawsplay 09-12-06, 11:00 PM	Why? A 14 doesn't even cost extra in point buy, it's just points.
Dheran 09-13-06, 11:37 AM	14 is the highest starting score you can get with point buy before paying a premium, so with the -4 racial penalty to INT you're looking at a final score of 10, meaning no bonus to skill points whatsoever. This might be OK for a Barbarian, but I wouldn't want to play a Scout without more skill points. For a Monk I'd probably max out Tumble, Hide, Spot, and Listen -- basic skills for a skirmisher -- and be really happy that I get a racial +8 to Move Silently. You can never have too many skill points, and the Varag costs quite heavily here.
runestar 09-13-06, 12:48 PM	Not to mention the suckiness of humanoid HD...:(
Dheran 09-15-06, 09:39 AM	Not to mention the suckiness of humanoid HD...:( And how is that sucky, in comparison to a monk?
TheGiftHorse 03-02-07, 10:17 PM	I like it alot, and I dont even mind the level adjustment, but I dont understand why they only have a speed of 40 when theyre PCs. It just doesnt make sense to me, and c'mon, theyve got an ECL of 5. I'm building a Varag Urban Ranger, and they mesh so well. Im tempted to add levels of bloodhound at some point in time, as well.
Balthanon 03-02-07, 10:34 PM	I like it alot, and I dont even mind the level adjustment, but I dont understand why they only have a speed of 40 when theyre PCs. It just doesnt make sense to me, and c'mon, theyve got an ECL of 5. I have a feeling they forgot to add the speed increases into the racial class. I would increase the speed by 10 feet at the same levels they gain their move silently bonuses.