Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dastari 03-10-07, 02:52 PM	Ok, so we all know that even though Dwarves count as medium creatures, that they sort of bridge the gap between medium and small. I'm thinking about creating a race that bridges the gap between medium and large. Before anyone asks, I have just read the entry for Goliaths in Races of Stone but my idea is slightly different. See, my race is going to be incredibly tall, but very thin and spindly which is why I'm going to give them a +2STR and a -2CON as their ability modifiers. Now my question is which of the following abilities could i give to my race without making them +1 LA or could I give them any two out of the three. I'm pretty sure if I gave them all three of these abilities they'd count as +1 LA. 40ft. base movement. Reach: 10ft. (They threaten squares both 5ft and 10ft away just like a large creature even though they only take up a 5ft square). Ability to use large weapons as if they were medium weapons. Just let me know. Thanks!
Naderion 03-10-07, 03:54 PM	Being very thin, I wouldn't give them a strength-bonus. They just don't have the muscles. Without the str-bonus, I think they are still weaker than most standard-races. The idea of LA is not that bad, but just badly aplied. Just take a look at dwarves, who are LA +0. As long as they are not getting more nice things than dwarves, there's no need for an LA.
Yadot 03-10-07, 04:39 PM	Reach is an automatic LA. The additional movement rate and weapon size would push them to +1 overpowered or +2 underpowered.
Kadasbrass 03-10-07, 04:48 PM	Reach is going to make it LA country. I personally wouldn't recomment letting any LA 0 race with speed above 30 since you may run into problems with people taking classes that make it speed 50 at level 1. Personally I recommend making them large without reach or increased speed. This way the benefits to grapple and larger weapons get sort of balanced by the -1 attack and -1 ac. I also recommend -2 Dex instead of -2 con since it makes more sense. Someone with increased str shouldn't have weaker constitution since the two ability scores are sort of linked.
Qube 03-10-07, 04:52 PM	IMO: LA+0: medium size humanoid with powerfull build, nothing else.
Dastari 03-10-07, 05:16 PM	Personally I recommend making them large without reach or increased speed. This way the benefits to grapple and larger weapons get sort of balanced by the -1 attack and -1 ac. Oh I agree, but I've been told that making a creature large automatically makes it LA +1. I've never understood this as I feel that making something large balances with itself since you get penalties as well as benefits to your size. If that's not true then I'll run with it. Personally I don't think that it should get an LA for being large unless the ability modifiers don't add to zero. I also recommend -2 Dex instead of -2 con since it makes more sense. Someone with increased str shouldn't have weaker constitution since the two ability scores are sort of linked. This kind of confuses me. There are plenty of people out there that can lift a massive amount but can only do so once. Whereas there are other people that can't lift much at all but can do it all day. STR and CON are not necessarily related which is what I wanted to show by these guys. They're big so they can lift more than your average human but they don't have much stamina. Also, unlike Goliaths they're not musclebound and since they are so thin they're actually capable of being very dexterous and agile. Thanks for the help though.
Kadasbrass 03-10-07, 10:21 PM	Theres a feat that allows people to wield large weapons. While I don't think its balance or makes sense. I'm not a fan of Powerful build since all the traits have nothing to balance against them. By going large the penalties of being large counteract the benefits. The rules also have in them the constep of some creatures not having reach while being large. Normally their refered to as long creatures but in theory I believe a creature can be big enough to be large but not large enough for reach or speed. This may best fit the ability of powerful built but powerful built has no penalties so the only way to balance it is with no racial traits to go with it. But I don't agree with a race being designed to only serve one role, a race that serves one role better the other roles is okay but should never shoehorn it into a single role. As for Str and Con, I don't think its a good idea to give it a bonus to one and a penalty to another. Its okay to have a bonus in one and no change in the other but a bonus in one and penalty in the other seems a bit counter protective since any role that will use str also needs con. Both Str and Con come from a strong body in general.
Tequila_Sunrise 03-10-07, 11:41 PM	Ok, so we all know that even though Dwarves count as medium creatures, that they sort of bridge the gap between medium and small. I'm thinking about creating a race that bridges the gap between medium and large. Before anyone asks, I have just read the entry for Goliaths in Races of Stone but my idea is slightly different. See, my race is going to be incredibly tall, but very thin and spindly which is why I'm going to give them a +2STR and a -2CON as their ability modifiers. Now my question is which of the following abilities could i give to my race without making them +1 LA or could I give them any two out of the three. I'm pretty sure if I gave them all three of these abilities they'd count as +1 LA. 40ft. base movement. Reach: 10ft. (They threaten squares both 5ft and 10ft away just like a large creature even though they only take up a 5ft square). Ability to use large weapons as if they were medium weapons. The 40 ft. movement I could see in a non-LA race, but neither of the other two. Especially 10 ft. reach. On the Str/Con issue, I don't see a problem with it. Sure a Con penalty sucks, but as the vast number of elven PCs demonstrate...boo hoo. I also fail to see any problem thinking "realistically". These guys get their strength from size and leverage, rather than from muscle, so their speed and agility are not hampered. But because they're scrawny...well, there's your excuse for the Con penalty. If you like them that way, stick with it.
MikeN 03-10-07, 11:51 PM	If it's slightly unbalanced under level 5 and not a big deal afterwards, it's LA +1 or +2. ;) If it's something that might be slightly more powerful to play than a human if you're using it for a non-specific build, it's LA +1 or +2. :P If it's something people might play at LA +0 but it's not a "core race", it's probably LA +1 or +2. :rolleyes: And finally, if it's something that's really good for a melee fighter template but not nearly as good at higher levels than a caster, it's probably a higher LA.
Dastari 03-11-07, 05:18 PM	On the Str/Con issue, I don't see a problem with it. Sure a Con penalty sucks, but as the vast number of elven PCs demonstrate...boo hoo. I also fail to see any problem thinking "realistically". These guys get their strength from size and leverage, rather than from muscle, so their speed and agility are not hampered. But because they're scrawny...well, there's your excuse for the Con penalty. If you like them that way, stick with it. Everyone seems to make the assumption that since I'm giving these guys a strength bonus, that I must want them to be for martial classes and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm leaning strongly towards Favored Class: Druid although I've thought about Ranger or Scout as well. Either way, these are classes that don't rely on CON as much as a martial class does and either way, I'm not building this race for a specific class anyway. I'm building them based on how I judge their anatomical abilities and the favored class is actually the last thing that I'm picking. So, all the fluff aside, here's my idea. The Kataan Kataan Racial Traits +2 Strength, -2 Constitution: The Kataan are large and have increased lifting prowess but are very frail and have little stamina. Medium: As Medium creatures, the kataan have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Kataan base land speed is 40 feet. Extension: Due to their long arms, the Kataan are able to attack further than other creatures of their mass. A Kataan is able to strike at a square 10 feet away but he must take a -4 penalty to his attack due to the fact that he could topple over from such a maneuver and must brace himself against this. He does not threaten squares 10 feet away. If using a reach weapon, a Kataan can use this ability to strike at foes 15 feet away only and he only threatens squares ten feet away. Instability: Being tall and lanky, the Kataan are exceptionally unsturdy on their feet. A Kataan gains a -4 penalty on ability checks to resist being bull rushed or tripped. -2 racial saving throws against disease. Kataan are exceptionally susceptible to diseases. Camouflage: A Kataan's rock colored skin grants them a +4 to their hide check when hiding amongst stone or rock. When hiding near a megalith, this bonus increases to +6. Automatic Languages: Kataan and Common. Bonus Languages: Terran, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc. Favored Class: Druid That's what I have. If this is still to powerful I have a couple of ideas to fix it. I could make their base movement 30 feet but give them "fast movement" as a special ability. That way they only get the 40 feet of movement when they're wearing light armor or a light load. That would also fit with the fact that these guys don't have the greatest stamina in the world. Another idea is to make Extension a full round action. Another one would be to increase their -2 to Fortitude saves to just cover fort saves in general. Opinions would be appreciated. Thanks!
Dastari 03-12-07, 01:55 PM	I would appreciate if someone would respond based on the racial information that I have given above. Thanks!
kainpendragon 03-12-07, 02:24 PM	Everyone seems to make the assumption that since I'm giving these guys a strength bonus, that I must want them to be for martial classes and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm leaning strongly towards Favored Class: Druid although I've thought about Ranger or Scout as well. Either way, these are classes that don't rely on CON as much as a martial class does and either way, I'm not building this race for a specific class anyway. I'm building them based on how I judge their anatomical abilities and the favored class is actually the last thing that I'm picking. So, all the fluff aside, here's my idea. The Kataan Kataan Racial Traits +2 Strength, -2 Constitution: The Kataan are large and have increased lifting prowess but are very frail and have little stamina. Medium: As Medium creatures, the kataan have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Kataan base land speed is 40 feet. Extension: Due to their long arms, the Kataan are able to attack further than other creatures of their mass. A Kataan is able to strike at a square 10 feet away but he must take a -4 penalty to his attack due to the fact that he could topple over from such a maneuver and must brace himself against this. He does not threaten squares 10 feet away. If using a reach weapon, a Kataan can use this ability to strike at foes 15 feet away only and he only threatens squares ten feet away. Instability: Being tall and lanky, the Kataan are exceptionally unsturdy on their feet. A Kataan gains a -4 penalty on ability checks to resist being bull rushed or tripped. -2 racial saving throws against disease. Kataan are exceptionally susceptible to diseases. Camouflage: A Kataan's rock colored skin grants them a +4 to their hide check when hiding amongst stone or rock. When hiding near a megalith, this bonus increases to +6. Automatic Languages: Kataan and Common. Bonus Languages: Terran, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc. Favored Class: Druid That's what I have. If this is still to powerful I have a couple of ideas to fix it. I could make their base movement 30 feet but give them "fast movement" as a special ability. That way they only get the 40 feet of movement when they're wearing light armor or a light load. That would also fit with the fact that these guys don't have the greatest stamina in the world. Another idea is to make Extension a full round action. Another one would be to increase their -2 to Fortitude saves to just cover fort saves in general. Opinions would be appreciated. Thanks! I like these pretty kewl. I might use these in a campaign i righting up. I don't see why beening large is a +1 LA because you recive a fair a mount minus with it. you get a -2 to you ac because you dex goes down for being large and you lose one for size in genral, you also lose -1 to hit witch is off set by +2 str. you take a -4 to all hiding and move slightent rolls it the the exact oppiste of beening small. saying something is large is +1 la is the same as sameing some one small is a +1 la. Also a large you and your large weapons are not going to fit every where you go. so you will be reduced to useing smaller weapons. armor cost your 2 times as much and so do weapons that a big flaw right there that counter the ablity to use them not to mention the time it would take to make such an item. Fast movemnt is what i would give them and it should not stack with monk or another fast movemnt. not sure about the reach thing i think that the only reason large creatures have +1 la because eveything else balances out. I think your -2 to all fort saves is a good counter for that i would do all fort saves in witch will be a total of -3 to all fort saves because of the con loss. I think that makes up for the 10ft reach. you could also give him a limited 10ft reach in the direction front, sides , back only and all angle reaches are just 5ft only.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-12-07, 02:25 PM	I would suggest that the current ability be replaced by something like this: "As a swift action, a kataan may treat any weapon as a reach weapon for one round. This does not have any effect if the weapon is already a reach weapon." This makes it a tactical consideration as to whether or not they want to use it - if they're treating it as a reach weapon, they don't threaten the space next to them for that round. It also makes it more or less feat-equivalent. There's a feat to let you treat a reach weapon as a non-reach weapon, and this is basically the opposite. (There're a few martial maneuvers/stances which do similar things in the ToB.)
MagnaSecuris 03-12-07, 05:06 PM	I agree with making the reach a swift action change, since then it's a bit more of an interesting effect. I also agree with making the land speed be a fast movement ability. Also, consider stating that it does not stack with the fast movement from Barbarian or Monk levels (so a Kataan barbarian moves only as fast as a human barbarian and a Kataan monk is equal to a human monk).
Dastari 03-12-07, 10:17 PM	I also agree with making the land speed be a fast movement ability. Also, consider stating that it does not stack with the fast movement from Barbarian or Monk levels (so a Kataan barbarian moves only as fast as a human barbarian and a Kataan monk is equal to a human monk). Yeah, giving them fast movement was the change that I was most ok with. It does make sense that they can move really fast with their long legs but once they put on medium armor or have a medium load they are just way to encumbered to move at an accelerated rate and then they just move as fast as ordinary medium creatures. I do believe that it should stack with the ability that barbarians, monks, and scouts get though. Monks and scouts don't get their increased movement until after first level and I don't really think that at that point its really game unbalancing if they move an extra ten feet especially since its limited in that they can't wear heavy armor. Barbarian is the only problematic race with another ten feet of movement at first level. Frankly, though, if someone wants to be a barbarian kataan they're welcome to move their 50 feet. A barbarian kataan is going to have problems with the duration of his rage and his low fort save. Also, even though a barbarians fast movement is ok with medium and light armors, a kataan's only lets him wear light armor so he's going to be hurting if he wears anything heavier than a chain shirt.
Dastari 03-12-07, 10:20 PM	I would suggest that the current ability be replaced by something like this: "As a swift action, a kataan may treat any weapon as a reach weapon for one round. This does not have any effect if the weapon is already a reach weapon." This makes it a tactical consideration as to whether or not they want to use it - if they're treating it as a reach weapon, they don't threaten the space next to them for that round. It also makes it more or less feat-equivalent. There's a feat to let you treat a reach weapon as a non-reach weapon, and this is basically the opposite. (There're a few martial maneuvers/stances which do similar things in the ToB.) I understand what you've done. The longaxe actually allows you to do the same thing as long as you're proficient with it. Still, its not quite the effect that I was looking for and frankly I think that due to their long arms they should be allowed to use this effect even with reach weapons. So do you believe that a -4 penalty is not enough of a tactical consideration to have someone second guess if they'll use this ability? I suppose that I could handicap it further by stating that a kataan can't make an attack of opportunity in the same round that he's used this ability. The other thing that I was thinking of was to make it a full-round action which would also make it a much tougher choice to use.