What race makes the best rogues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What race makes the best rogues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Disco777
04-30-08, 04:39 PM Halflings, Gnomes or Elves?
YamiShinobi
04-30-08, 11:22 PM if low level (8-), human, if level 9+ grey elf (monster manual, traits are in addition to phb elf. great if arcane trickster, daggerspell mage or daring outlaw. or just plain archer. free longbow proficiency. melee weapons, get a rapier. several skill synergies are better than flat huge max ranks. masterwork thieves tools asap. (but not with starting gold of course) rapier, chain shirt, (mithral is the best. earliest is level 3) don't dump strength. ( i put a 10 for no penalties)focus on dexterity and intellegence, then charisma and constitution (either order) then minimize strength and wisdom penalties)
Nathreet
04-30-08, 11:37 PM Good rogues are skillmonkeys and ninjas. Bad rogues melee in plain sight. Even when flanking you gotta be careful and have a good tumble, or you die.

A gnome would make the best melee rogue thanks to his con and AC, but a non-rogue would make a better melee character. So scratch that. Go halfling or elf for the dex. The halfing also has a bonus to hide/move silenty, while the elf has a bonus to the standard skillmonkey stuff and a faster movement speed (good for finding weak targets to flank). The elf's con bonus makes him more fragile, making it even more important to be sneaky and to pick good targets.
ciaran
04-30-08, 11:38 PM I'd say they're all about equal in their own niche.

Halflings fill the traditional sneaky type rogue, having bonuses in several rogue skills. Although not seen as good melee warriors per the fluff, weapon finesse goes a very long way to change that.

Elves benefit from their three racial skill bonues in perception and finding secret doors. They would probably do better in melee from their medium size and weapon proficiencies, but there a bazillion exceptions to that.

The Gnome obviously have benefits from his small size but there is little else from the race to gain advantage from... until you take into account their slightly better hp, dodge bonuses vs giants and aptitude for spells. He has his place as a good rogue. I've never played one but now I think I'll give it a whirl sometime.
Akruze
05-01-08, 12:17 PM I always like a halfling.
The_Shaman
05-01-08, 12:27 PM Do whisper gnomes count? They are pretty amazing rogues.
Ecalsneerg
05-01-08, 05:03 PM Or goblins, if you don't want Whisper Gnome cheese. +4 to hide and move silently, and the 30' move, make a competent stealth rogue.
Shaggy_Shaggs
05-01-08, 05:14 PM Second the goblin suggestion, it's better than all three OP options as a sneak. Among the three mentioned in the OP though, I'd go with the elf (much as I loathe elves). The speed penalty on the other two just hurts like hell, skills like climb and tumble tend to be executed at reduced speed already so low base speed makes that even worse, and the -6 penalty on jump checks from lower speed can and will get you killed eventually. A wizard dip wouldn't hurt a rogue either, having a familiar that uses your skill ranks on everything can essentially create a backup skillmonkey (or an easy +2 boost via Aid Another on most checks), and would make using found magic items simpler, so having wizard as a favoured class might be nice.
YamiShinobi
05-01-08, 06:05 PM you can try the nerfed nekogami in my book of homebrews

races it is weaker than

whisper gnome
strongheart halfling
anthro bat
venerable dragonwrought kobold

better than
high elf
lightfoot halfling
rock gnome
halfelf

close to
grey elf
goblin
human

people think it is overpowered but there are better suited races. all it's features fit the rogue and nothing else. it was built with the Arcane Trickster in mind. (i originally built it for the A.T. and the daggerspell mage. it has a racial feat it can take that saves the level dip of corellan larethans champion with ti doesn't qualifiy for. it ended up favoring stealthy finesse rogues.) i am going to test it with yaba's scale.
SilverFoxKnows
05-01-08, 07:25 PM Out of those three I'd go for the Elf, if only because of the 30' move. Better yet would be a Goblin (30' move, darkvision the Halfling lacks, +4 to Hide from size AND +4 racial bonus to Move Silently).
sonofzeal
05-01-08, 07:45 PM I'm a fan of the Shadar-Kai from Fiend Folio. They've got a LA and mediocre stats, but they get Sneak Attack, EWP: spiked chain (which is just cool), HiPS, a bonus to hide in shadows, and Night's Extract which is one of the best rogue items ever (50 gp = 9/10ths concealment due to darkness in a decent radius for an hour; thwarted by any Light spell but still potent).
The_Shaman
05-01-08, 08:57 PM Well, if we go outside of core I'm partial to the Marruspawn Lurker from Sandstorm. Those doggies are darn good. As for goblins, they are good - especially the UA air goblins, but the standard gobbos aren't too bad either, despite the overall negative ability adjustments.

However, imo the speed problems of halflings, gnomes and dwarves can be fixed with a few low-level magic items, so I'm not too worried about them. YMMV.
Nathreet
05-01-08, 09:00 PM If you're not limited to PHB classes, I'll second the support for goblins. Stealth & speed makes a great rogue. Pixies are great too, as are whisper gnomes. If you can get some smoke or etc., grimlocks might work well too.

A 1 level dip into wizard is great for any rogue. Besides first level spells, you can use any wizard scroll/wand as if you had a 20 in your use magic device skill. Wands of any level are automatic success, scrolls are a caster level check, DC = 1 + scroll caster level. There are all kinds of low level spells that are great for rogues.
pigknight
05-01-08, 09:10 PM I would say elves have better trapfinding/scout bonuses. But I would go with goblin/kobold, even if only for the RP possibilities.
sonofzeal
05-01-08, 09:54 PM Well, if we go outside of core I'm partial to the Marruspawn Lurker from Sandstorm. Those doggies are darn good. As for goblins, they are good - especially the UA air goblins, but the standard gobbos aren't too bad either, despite the overall negative ability adjustments.
Ah, yes, Marrulurk are the classic counterpoint to Shadar-Kai. Same LA, same Racial HD, both are Rogue-types. Marrulurk are universally better in combat and have really solid stats. Shadar-Kai are better at sheer sneaking, and looking more or less Humanoid has its distinct advantages. In a combat-heavy campaign, go with Marrulurk; in an RP-based one, or if you're purely interested in leet ninja ski||z, I'd recommend the Shadar-Kai.

But yeah, Goblin is a really nice race for Rogues. Check with your DM on the gp cost for a Warg, should be roughly the same as a Hippogriff (so, 3000 gp).
zook1shoe666
05-01-08, 11:01 PM Tibbit (Dragon Compendium), think of a halfling that can turn into a cat at will. gaining a higher Dex and MUCH better Hide check ;)

if not the tibbit, then the Whisper Gnome.
MarkusCryst
05-04-08, 03:03 AM Catfolk are pretty good.

+4 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 Move Silently and Listen, +1 NA never hurts.

And only +1 LA
Kn1ves
05-13-08, 11:53 PM I'm about to play a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk rogue so I like them right now. From the original choices I'd go Gnome.
MadPrak_Mark2
05-14-08, 12:27 AM Whisper Gnomes, I think that's right, are pretty good, Races of Stone, I believe.
zook1shoe666
05-14-08, 10:45 AM Whisper Gnomes, I think that's right, are pretty good, Races of Stone, I believe.

im playing a crazy Whisper Gnome Rogue right now ;) at 2nd level ive got a +18 hide check! and a +14 move silently :)
The_Shaman
05-14-08, 11:23 AM Tibbit (Dragon Compendium), think of a halfling that can turn into a cat at will. gaining a higher Dex and MUCH better Hide check ;)

if not the tibbit, then the Whisper Gnome.

With the risk of derailing the thread further from the 3 original races mentioned, I would suggest taking a look in the OA/Dragon 318 (update) hengeyoukai if you're interested in the tibbit. There are several versions, each morphing in a different animal. Also, has anyone tried a riikan (Magic of Incarnum)? +2 dex -2 str isn't so great on a medium creature, but I particularly like their substitution levels.
zook1shoe666
05-14-08, 11:48 AM With the risk of derailing the thread further from the 3 original races mentioned, I would suggest taking a look in the OA/Dragon 318 (update) hengeyoukai if you're interested in the tibbit. There are several versions, each morphing in a different animal.

the problem with the OA, in my group, is that nobody plays with it. at least the Dragon Compendium is much newer and you don't need a errata for 99% of it.

Also, has anyone tried a riikan (Magic of Incarnum)? +2 dex -2 str isn't so great on a medium creature, but I particularly like their substitution levels.

i prefer having a Small size for a rogue.
YamiShinobi
05-14-08, 08:33 PM i prefer having a Small size for a rogue.

oh yeah, slight build, small benefits without the drawbacks.
Aravanus
05-16-08, 04:00 AM Of the 3 OP options: Elf

My personal fav: Kender

Good; Small, +2 Dex, +2 Spot, Sleight of Hand, Open Locks, Immune to Fear, +1 to STs

Interesting; +4 Bluff to taunt someone

Failings; -2 Str, -2 Wis, -4 Concentration, 20ft Speed

Not to mention being a blast to RP. Check 'em out in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting
RobbyPants
05-16-08, 09:42 AM I have to agree with a lot of what's been said above.

Non-core: whisper gnome

Core: goblin
Empirate
05-21-08, 10:56 AM Nice to see somebody bring up a Shadar-Kai for once! I'm playing one at the moment, and it's a blast. We started at level 4, so I wasn't allowed any class levels at the beginning (just 3 racial HD and +1 LA). Still, I can usually manage Hide checks well over 30. I also love that "Now I'm here - now I'm not!" effect. HiPS lets you turn invisible with a check almost at will - and right now we're on the Plane of Shadow, making those checks even easier...

From the original poster's given races, I think Halflings are best. You can live with a Str penalty, 20' speed are awful, but the rest is just great. Also, check out Strongheart Halflings for a Bonus Feat instead of +1 to saves - even more awesomeness!

From all of Core, I like Humans best. For Rogues or for anything else. Bonus Feat and bonus Skill Points can't be beat. Only drawback is you can't see in the dark.

From all the books, Whispergnome is mechanically the strongest, closely followed by Dark Human IMO. But Shadar-Kai is definitely the most flavorful!
Skulk is nice, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Disco777 04-30-08, 04:39 PM	Halflings, Gnomes or Elves?
YamiShinobi 04-30-08, 11:22 PM	if low level (8-), human, if level 9+ grey elf (monster manual, traits are in addition to phb elf. great if arcane trickster, daggerspell mage or daring outlaw. or just plain archer. free longbow proficiency. melee weapons, get a rapier. several skill synergies are better than flat huge max ranks. masterwork thieves tools asap. (but not with starting gold of course) rapier, chain shirt, (mithral is the best. earliest is level 3) don't dump strength. ( i put a 10 for no penalties)focus on dexterity and intellegence, then charisma and constitution (either order) then minimize strength and wisdom penalties)
Nathreet 04-30-08, 11:37 PM	Good rogues are skillmonkeys and ninjas. Bad rogues melee in plain sight. Even when flanking you gotta be careful and have a good tumble, or you die. A gnome would make the best melee rogue thanks to his con and AC, but a non-rogue would make a better melee character. So scratch that. Go halfling or elf for the dex. The halfing also has a bonus to hide/move silenty, while the elf has a bonus to the standard skillmonkey stuff and a faster movement speed (good for finding weak targets to flank). The elf's con bonus makes him more fragile, making it even more important to be sneaky and to pick good targets.
ciaran 04-30-08, 11:38 PM	I'd say they're all about equal in their own niche. Halflings fill the traditional sneaky type rogue, having bonuses in several rogue skills. Although not seen as good melee warriors per the fluff, weapon finesse goes a very long way to change that. Elves benefit from their three racial skill bonues in perception and finding secret doors. They would probably do better in melee from their medium size and weapon proficiencies, but there a bazillion exceptions to that. The Gnome obviously have benefits from his small size but there is little else from the race to gain advantage from... until you take into account their slightly better hp, dodge bonuses vs giants and aptitude for spells. He has his place as a good rogue. I've never played one but now I think I'll give it a whirl sometime.
Akruze 05-01-08, 12:17 PM	I always like a halfling.
The_Shaman 05-01-08, 12:27 PM	Do whisper gnomes count? They are pretty amazing rogues.
Ecalsneerg 05-01-08, 05:03 PM	Or goblins, if you don't want Whisper Gnome cheese. +4 to hide and move silently, and the 30' move, make a competent stealth rogue.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-01-08, 05:14 PM	Second the goblin suggestion, it's better than all three OP options as a sneak. Among the three mentioned in the OP though, I'd go with the elf (much as I loathe elves). The speed penalty on the other two just hurts like hell, skills like climb and tumble tend to be executed at reduced speed already so low base speed makes that even worse, and the -6 penalty on jump checks from lower speed can and will get you killed eventually. A wizard dip wouldn't hurt a rogue either, having a familiar that uses your skill ranks on everything can essentially create a backup skillmonkey (or an easy +2 boost via Aid Another on most checks), and would make using found magic items simpler, so having wizard as a favoured class might be nice.
YamiShinobi 05-01-08, 06:05 PM	you can try the nerfed nekogami in my book of homebrews races it is weaker than whisper gnome strongheart halfling anthro bat venerable dragonwrought kobold better than high elf lightfoot halfling rock gnome halfelf close to grey elf goblin human people think it is overpowered but there are better suited races. all it's features fit the rogue and nothing else. it was built with the Arcane Trickster in mind. (i originally built it for the A.T. and the daggerspell mage. it has a racial feat it can take that saves the level dip of corellan larethans champion with ti doesn't qualifiy for. it ended up favoring stealthy finesse rogues.) i am going to test it with yaba's scale.
SilverFoxKnows 05-01-08, 07:25 PM	Out of those three I'd go for the Elf, if only because of the 30' move. Better yet would be a Goblin (30' move, darkvision the Halfling lacks, +4 to Hide from size AND +4 racial bonus to Move Silently).
sonofzeal 05-01-08, 07:45 PM	I'm a fan of the Shadar-Kai from Fiend Folio. They've got a LA and mediocre stats, but they get Sneak Attack, EWP: spiked chain (which is just cool), HiPS, a bonus to hide in shadows, and Night's Extract which is one of the best rogue items ever (50 gp = 9/10ths concealment due to darkness in a decent radius for an hour; thwarted by any Light spell but still potent).
The_Shaman 05-01-08, 08:57 PM	Well, if we go outside of core I'm partial to the Marruspawn Lurker from Sandstorm. Those doggies are darn good. As for goblins, they are good - especially the UA air goblins, but the standard gobbos aren't too bad either, despite the overall negative ability adjustments. However, imo the speed problems of halflings, gnomes and dwarves can be fixed with a few low-level magic items, so I'm not too worried about them. YMMV.
Nathreet 05-01-08, 09:00 PM	If you're not limited to PHB classes, I'll second the support for goblins. Stealth & speed makes a great rogue. Pixies are great too, as are whisper gnomes. If you can get some smoke or etc., grimlocks might work well too. A 1 level dip into wizard is great for any rogue. Besides first level spells, you can use any wizard scroll/wand as if you had a 20 in your use magic device skill. Wands of any level are automatic success, scrolls are a caster level check, DC = 1 + scroll caster level. There are all kinds of low level spells that are great for rogues.
pigknight 05-01-08, 09:10 PM	I would say elves have better trapfinding/scout bonuses. But I would go with goblin/kobold, even if only for the RP possibilities.
sonofzeal 05-01-08, 09:54 PM	Well, if we go outside of core I'm partial to the Marruspawn Lurker from Sandstorm. Those doggies are darn good. As for goblins, they are good - especially the UA air goblins, but the standard gobbos aren't too bad either, despite the overall negative ability adjustments. Ah, yes, Marrulurk are the classic counterpoint to Shadar-Kai. Same LA, same Racial HD, both are Rogue-types. Marrulurk are universally better in combat and have really solid stats. Shadar-Kai are better at sheer sneaking, and looking more or less Humanoid has its distinct advantages. In a combat-heavy campaign, go with Marrulurk; in an RP-based one, or if you're purely interested in leet ninja ski\|\|z, I'd recommend the Shadar-Kai. But yeah, Goblin is a really nice race for Rogues. Check with your DM on the gp cost for a Warg, should be roughly the same as a Hippogriff (so, 3000 gp).
zook1shoe666 05-01-08, 11:01 PM	Tibbit (Dragon Compendium), think of a halfling that can turn into a cat at will. gaining a higher Dex and MUCH better Hide check ;) if not the tibbit, then the Whisper Gnome.
MarkusCryst 05-04-08, 03:03 AM	Catfolk are pretty good. +4 Dex, +2 Cha, +2 Move Silently and Listen, +1 NA never hurts. And only +1 LA
Kn1ves 05-13-08, 11:53 PM	I'm about to play a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk rogue so I like them right now. From the original choices I'd go Gnome.
MadPrak_Mark2 05-14-08, 12:27 AM	Whisper Gnomes, I think that's right, are pretty good, Races of Stone, I believe.
zook1shoe666 05-14-08, 10:45 AM	Whisper Gnomes, I think that's right, are pretty good, Races of Stone, I believe. im playing a crazy Whisper Gnome Rogue right now ;) at 2nd level ive got a +18 hide check! and a +14 move silently :)
The_Shaman 05-14-08, 11:23 AM	Tibbit (Dragon Compendium), think of a halfling that can turn into a cat at will. gaining a higher Dex and MUCH better Hide check ;) if not the tibbit, then the Whisper Gnome. With the risk of derailing the thread further from the 3 original races mentioned, I would suggest taking a look in the OA/Dragon 318 (update) hengeyoukai if you're interested in the tibbit. There are several versions, each morphing in a different animal. Also, has anyone tried a riikan (Magic of Incarnum)? +2 dex -2 str isn't so great on a medium creature, but I particularly like their substitution levels.
zook1shoe666 05-14-08, 11:48 AM	With the risk of derailing the thread further from the 3 original races mentioned, I would suggest taking a look in the OA/Dragon 318 (update) hengeyoukai if you're interested in the tibbit. There are several versions, each morphing in a different animal. the problem with the OA, in my group, is that nobody plays with it. at least the Dragon Compendium is much newer and you don't need a errata for 99% of it. Also, has anyone tried a riikan (Magic of Incarnum)? +2 dex -2 str isn't so great on a medium creature, but I particularly like their substitution levels. i prefer having a Small size for a rogue.
YamiShinobi 05-14-08, 08:33 PM	i prefer having a Small size for a rogue. oh yeah, slight build, small benefits without the drawbacks.
Aravanus 05-16-08, 04:00 AM	Of the 3 OP options: Elf My personal fav: Kender Good; Small, +2 Dex, +2 Spot, Sleight of Hand, Open Locks, Immune to Fear, +1 to STs Interesting; +4 Bluff to taunt someone Failings; -2 Str, -2 Wis, -4 Concentration, 20ft Speed Not to mention being a blast to RP. Check 'em out in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting
RobbyPants 05-16-08, 09:42 AM	I have to agree with a lot of what's been said above. Non-core: whisper gnome Core: goblin
Empirate 05-21-08, 10:56 AM	Nice to see somebody bring up a Shadar-Kai for once! I'm playing one at the moment, and it's a blast. We started at level 4, so I wasn't allowed any class levels at the beginning (just 3 racial HD and +1 LA). Still, I can usually manage Hide checks well over 30. I also love that "Now I'm here - now I'm not!" effect. HiPS lets you turn invisible with a check almost at will - and right now we're on the Plane of Shadow, making those checks even easier... From the original poster's given races, I think Halflings are best. You can live with a Str penalty, 20' speed are awful, but the rest is just great. Also, check out Strongheart Halflings for a Bonus Feat instead of +1 to saves - even more awesomeness! From all of Core, I like Humans best. For Rogues or for anything else. Bonus Feat and bonus Skill Points can't be beat. Only drawback is you can't see in the dark. From all the books, Whispergnome is mechanically the strongest, closely followed by Dark Human IMO. But Shadar-Kai is definitely the most flavorful! Skulk is nice, too.