What's the big deal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

What's the big deal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Screams_of_the_Oak
04-17-07, 01:45 PM I've been reading through this forum for a little over a month now, and it seems at least once a day I see some thread being opened obsessing over level adjustment. These obsessions aren't voiced because of a need for some caster, but instead something as trivial as a melee class.

What's the big deal guys?

First of all, level adjustment isn't such a huge deal, especially when you're most likely getting racial hit die to bump up hitpoint. Second, if you're picking your classes right, you should be getting powers that offset the one level of experience quite nicely. In fact, I would argue that 70% of the LA 1 and LA 2 races make better races than many of the core, and non-adjusted races.

Lastly, there's something I rarely see discussed anywhere on this forum. You can get rid of level adjustment. There's a whole system dedicated to getting rid of that experience penalty for being a level adjusted character, and I haven't seen it mentioned ONCE.

Reducing level adjustment is simple as this: depending on your level adjustment, you may pay a one time penalty to reduce your LA to 0. Each time you complete this, you take one level adjustment from your character.

I'm not going to list the whole mechanics of this, but there's a whole system for those interested written in Unearthed Arcana. So my question is this: why hasn't this been discussed more often?
Naderion
04-17-07, 02:13 PM Lastly, there's something I rarely see discussed anywhere on this forum. You can get rid of level adjustment. There's a whole system dedicated to getting rid of that experience penalty for being a level adjusted character, and I haven't seen it mentioned ONCE.

Reducing level adjustment is simple as this: depending on your level adjustment, you may pay a one time penalty to reduce your LA to 0. Each time you complete this, you take one level adjustment from your character.
Man, you made my day. :D
Sure, that's exactly what I've always done and therefore I never bothered about it, but the though of people effectivly creating their own problems because they don't want to divert from the printings never came that vivid to my mind. :D

(The same thing for "What race gets...?" and "What class would be best...?". Am I the only one trying to create a fantasy setting using a carefully chosen arrangement of creatures living in it and the martial and magical arts present there?)
Darkwolf71
04-17-07, 05:40 PM The LA reduction sytem is optional. While LA itself is core.

Sure it's nice, but I have yet to play in a campaign in which it is actually used.
Romtos
04-17-07, 05:50 PM The system is nice, but doesn't solve all problems. It works only for low LA.

LA // Level before reduced to 0
1 // 3
2 // 9
3 // 18
4 // 30
5 // 45
6 // 63

So...anything higher than LA 3 takes epic levels for buy-off. Plus, the first takes the longest, which means that with an high LA it takes into epic levels before you can use it.
YabaTheWhat
04-17-07, 08:11 PM LA buyoff typically gets mentioned in any situation where it can be applied. It's just one of those things that gets passing mention once in the thread, rather than prominent attention throughout the conversation.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-17-07, 10:55 PM > In fact, I would argue that 70% of the LA 1 and LA 2 races make better races
> than many of the core, and non-adjusted races.

And that's where you're in the minority. General consensus is that most races' LAs are overcosted, and the designers themselves have stated that this is the case and that it was deliberate so as to make them unattractive to play (one of the threads about this has a quote from them about it).

This is why there's a lot of debate about LA and how it might be reworked.
Thomar_of_Uointer
04-17-07, 11:10 PM The LA reduction sytem is optional. While LA itself is core.

Sure it's nice, but I have yet to play in a campaign in which it is actually used.

Actually, monsters as races are a variant rule presented in the DMG. DMs don't have to allow them.
Metafictional
04-17-07, 11:31 PM I fail to see how racial HD helps in any way, shape or form. With the possible exception of Dragon or Outsider HD, anything that delays you getting actual class levels just plain sucks.

In fact, racial HD is WORSE than a mere LA, since the LA is based on what you're actually getting, and Racial HD is just tacked on worthlessness.

I mean, look a the Lizardfolk. LA +1, but all because he has one Racial HD too many, he's an ECL 3, who won't get a real class level until 4!

So yes, even melee types get screwed by LA races, unless the Race is offering so much Strength it doesn't matter (and at that point, you probably have massive damage + reach that outshines other characters completely).
Thomar_of_Uointer
04-18-07, 12:21 AM I fail to see how racial HD helps in any way, shape or form. With the possible exception of Dragon or Outsider HD, anything that delays you getting actual class levels just plain sucks.

In fact, racial HD is WORSE than a mere LA, since the LA is based on what you're actually getting, and Racial HD is just tacked on worthlessness.

I mean, look a the Lizardfolk. LA +1, but all because he has one Racial HD too many, he's an ECL 3, who won't get a real class level until 4!

So yes, even melee types get screwed by LA races, unless the Race is offering so much Strength it doesn't matter (and at that point, you probably have massive damage + reach that outshines other characters completely).

Wrong. Racial Hit Dice are factored into Level Adjustment, and in most cases serve to lower the Level Adjustment. They represent inherent toughness and power, and prevent incongruities like level 1 minotaurs getting killed in one hit with a greatsword.
kaionon
04-18-07, 12:35 AM Thomar, I'm not sure where your getting your opinions from, but hitdice is NOT calculated in with LA. Otherwise ECL would not be HD +LA as it stands by RAW.

Monsters as PCs may be an optional rule, but it's one many on the boards seem to want to see as useable. As it stands by raw monsters in general are not worth their cost.

Racial hitdice Is usualy better then just a strait level adjustment, but mainly for the lower ECL monsters like gnoll and lizardfolk where it is better to just do away with their +1 LA and keep the hitdice. (Even though 2 humanoid hitdice is not usualy worth it, it's better then ECL 3)

To the OP, if your tired of seeing threads like this, why are you making one yourself? At least I take it our annoyed with them?
Metafictional
04-18-07, 02:14 AM Exactly. I don't know why people think this, when the MM is fairly clear that your ECL is the total of HD, class levels, and LA.

For example, a Fire Giant has what, a LA of +4 and 15 hit dice? You can't really think that you can play a Fire Giant Barbarian 1 with 16 hit dice as an ECL 5, can you?

I think that would be just a little broken, although, it may work in your game. Not sure what CR 5 critter could stand up to that though.

Still, as a recent post I read once said "nothing is overpowered in the hands of a responsible player".
Thomar_of_Uointer
04-18-07, 02:33 AM Thomar, I'm not sure where your getting your opinions from, but hitdice is NOT calculated in with LA. Otherwise ECL would not be HD +LA as it stands by RAW.

Let me clarify. When the Level Adjustment of a creature is determined, its Hit Dice are taken into account. In general, they serve to lower the LA because the combination of their benefits (hit points, skill points, etc) and drawbacks (count as levels) tends to make them a penalty.

Metafictional, I know how ECL works.
runestar
04-18-07, 09:24 AM To add on, take a lizardfolk for example.
It has 2 humanoid HD, and LA+1, for a total ECL of 3. However, if you wanted to play 1 without the 2 racial HD, its LA would probably have to be increased to +2 to compensate.

As such, racial HD is not exactly a total loss, since it actually serves to mitigate what would otherwise have been a higher LA.
However, that does not mean I do not necessarily disagree with quite a few of the OP's points, even as I profess to be an advocate of the LA system itself.

I personally feel that the problem is not with the concept of LA itself. It purports to allow additional abilities at a fair price, such that you are able to play monstrous races at an appropriate lv. In theory at least, that seems okay enough. However, it is the execution part which leaves much to be desired.

I have noticed that LA values seem overinflated for quite a significant number of races. I am not sure as to the actual reason behind them(some claim the designers did so deliberately to stop players using them, others feel that certain abilities have the potential to upset game balance and thus must be penalized more heavily).

There are many monsters which make viable PCs. Despite their high LAs, races such as astral devas, ghaeles and centaurs are very much playable(though the ghaele is more specialized and really only shines in grinder-type campaigns with few opportunities of rest).

However, there are even more which are downright useless, since their ECL pretty much makes them too weak in just about everything. That is the main gripe. No way is an ogre mage ECL12 or a satyr ECL7, when I could have a fighter1/wiz5/EK6 or a rogue7.

Also, not many people use UA, much less allow the LA buyoff mechanic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Screams_of_the_Oak 04-17-07, 01:45 PM	I've been reading through this forum for a little over a month now, and it seems at least once a day I see some thread being opened obsessing over level adjustment. These obsessions aren't voiced because of a need for some caster, but instead something as trivial as a melee class. What's the big deal guys? First of all, level adjustment isn't such a huge deal, especially when you're most likely getting racial hit die to bump up hitpoint. Second, if you're picking your classes right, you should be getting powers that offset the one level of experience quite nicely. In fact, I would argue that 70% of the LA 1 and LA 2 races make better races than many of the core, and non-adjusted races. Lastly, there's something I rarely see discussed anywhere on this forum. You can get rid of level adjustment. There's a whole system dedicated to getting rid of that experience penalty for being a level adjusted character, and I haven't seen it mentioned ONCE. Reducing level adjustment is simple as this: depending on your level adjustment, you may pay a one time penalty to reduce your LA to 0. Each time you complete this, you take one level adjustment from your character. I'm not going to list the whole mechanics of this, but there's a whole system for those interested written in Unearthed Arcana. So my question is this: why hasn't this been discussed more often?
Naderion 04-17-07, 02:13 PM	Lastly, there's something I rarely see discussed anywhere on this forum. You can get rid of level adjustment. There's a whole system dedicated to getting rid of that experience penalty for being a level adjusted character, and I haven't seen it mentioned ONCE. Reducing level adjustment is simple as this: depending on your level adjustment, you may pay a one time penalty to reduce your LA to 0. Each time you complete this, you take one level adjustment from your character. Man, you made my day. :D Sure, that's exactly what I've always done and therefore I never bothered about it, but the though of people effectivly creating their own problems because they don't want to divert from the printings never came that vivid to my mind. :D (The same thing for "What race gets...?" and "What class would be best...?". Am I the only one trying to create a fantasy setting using a carefully chosen arrangement of creatures living in it and the martial and magical arts present there?)
Darkwolf71 04-17-07, 05:40 PM	The LA reduction sytem is optional. While LA itself is core. Sure it's nice, but I have yet to play in a campaign in which it is actually used.
Romtos 04-17-07, 05:50 PM	The system is nice, but doesn't solve all problems. It works only for low LA. LA // Level before reduced to 0 1 // 3 2 // 9 3 // 18 4 // 30 5 // 45 6 // 63 So...anything higher than LA 3 takes epic levels for buy-off. Plus, the first takes the longest, which means that with an high LA it takes into epic levels before you can use it.
YabaTheWhat 04-17-07, 08:11 PM	LA buyoff typically gets mentioned in any situation where it can be applied. It's just one of those things that gets passing mention once in the thread, rather than prominent attention throughout the conversation.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-17-07, 10:55 PM	> In fact, I would argue that 70% of the LA 1 and LA 2 races make better races > than many of the core, and non-adjusted races. And that's where you're in the minority. General consensus is that most races' LAs are overcosted, and the designers themselves have stated that this is the case and that it was deliberate so as to make them unattractive to play (one of the threads about this has a quote from them about it). This is why there's a lot of debate about LA and how it might be reworked.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-17-07, 11:10 PM	The LA reduction sytem is optional. While LA itself is core. Sure it's nice, but I have yet to play in a campaign in which it is actually used. Actually, monsters as races are a variant rule presented in the DMG. DMs don't have to allow them.
Metafictional 04-17-07, 11:31 PM	I fail to see how racial HD helps in any way, shape or form. With the possible exception of Dragon or Outsider HD, anything that delays you getting actual class levels just plain sucks. In fact, racial HD is WORSE than a mere LA, since the LA is based on what you're actually getting, and Racial HD is just tacked on worthlessness. I mean, look a the Lizardfolk. LA +1, but all because he has one Racial HD too many, he's an ECL 3, who won't get a real class level until 4! So yes, even melee types get screwed by LA races, unless the Race is offering so much Strength it doesn't matter (and at that point, you probably have massive damage + reach that outshines other characters completely).
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-18-07, 12:21 AM	I fail to see how racial HD helps in any way, shape or form. With the possible exception of Dragon or Outsider HD, anything that delays you getting actual class levels just plain sucks. In fact, racial HD is WORSE than a mere LA, since the LA is based on what you're actually getting, and Racial HD is just tacked on worthlessness. I mean, look a the Lizardfolk. LA +1, but all because he has one Racial HD too many, he's an ECL 3, who won't get a real class level until 4! So yes, even melee types get screwed by LA races, unless the Race is offering so much Strength it doesn't matter (and at that point, you probably have massive damage + reach that outshines other characters completely). Wrong. Racial Hit Dice are factored into Level Adjustment, and in most cases serve to lower the Level Adjustment. They represent inherent toughness and power, and prevent incongruities like level 1 minotaurs getting killed in one hit with a greatsword.
kaionon 04-18-07, 12:35 AM	Thomar, I'm not sure where your getting your opinions from, but hitdice is NOT calculated in with LA. Otherwise ECL would not be HD +LA as it stands by RAW. Monsters as PCs may be an optional rule, but it's one many on the boards seem to want to see as useable. As it stands by raw monsters in general are not worth their cost. Racial hitdice Is usualy better then just a strait level adjustment, but mainly for the lower ECL monsters like gnoll and lizardfolk where it is better to just do away with their +1 LA and keep the hitdice. (Even though 2 humanoid hitdice is not usualy worth it, it's better then ECL 3) To the OP, if your tired of seeing threads like this, why are you making one yourself? At least I take it our annoyed with them?
Metafictional 04-18-07, 02:14 AM	Exactly. I don't know why people think this, when the MM is fairly clear that your ECL is the total of HD, class levels, and LA. For example, a Fire Giant has what, a LA of +4 and 15 hit dice? You can't really think that you can play a Fire Giant Barbarian 1 with 16 hit dice as an ECL 5, can you? I think that would be just a little broken, although, it may work in your game. Not sure what CR 5 critter could stand up to that though. Still, as a recent post I read once said "nothing is overpowered in the hands of a responsible player".
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-18-07, 02:33 AM	Thomar, I'm not sure where your getting your opinions from, but hitdice is NOT calculated in with LA. Otherwise ECL would not be HD +LA as it stands by RAW. Let me clarify. When the Level Adjustment of a creature is determined, its Hit Dice are taken into account. In general, they serve to lower the LA because the combination of their benefits (hit points, skill points, etc) and drawbacks (count as levels) tends to make them a penalty. Metafictional, I know how ECL works.
runestar 04-18-07, 09:24 AM	To add on, take a lizardfolk for example. It has 2 humanoid HD, and LA+1, for a total ECL of 3. However, if you wanted to play 1 without the 2 racial HD, its LA would probably have to be increased to +2 to compensate. As such, racial HD is not exactly a total loss, since it actually serves to mitigate what would otherwise have been a higher LA. However, that does not mean I do not necessarily disagree with quite a few of the OP's points, even as I profess to be an advocate of the LA system itself. I personally feel that the problem is not with the concept of LA itself. It purports to allow additional abilities at a fair price, such that you are able to play monstrous races at an appropriate lv. In theory at least, that seems okay enough. However, it is the execution part which leaves much to be desired. I have noticed that LA values seem overinflated for quite a significant number of races. I am not sure as to the actual reason behind them(some claim the designers did so deliberately to stop players using them, others feel that certain abilities have the potential to upset game balance and thus must be penalized more heavily). There are many monsters which make viable PCs. Despite their high LAs, races such as astral devas, ghaeles and centaurs are very much playable(though the ghaele is more specialized and really only shines in grinder-type campaigns with few opportunities of rest). However, there are even more which are downright useless, since their ECL pretty much makes them too weak in just about everything. That is the main gripe. No way is an ogre mage ECL12 or a satyr ECL7, when I could have a fighter1/wiz5/EK6 or a rogue7. Also, not many people use UA, much less allow the LA buyoff mechanic.